Procurement of fire trucks

[Jumty1]

Coming from the UK I never cease to be amazed by the way you go about procuring fire tenders in the USA.

Why do you insist on building so many of your your vehicles as custom one offs?

Sure conditions vary from city to city but how much money could you save if you left the 19th Century behind and took on board the lessons of that great American Henry Ford and started standardizing layouts and equipment fits.

OK it might be less interesting for speccing committees but you'd get better and cheaper vehicles.

[IronsMan53]

Coming from the UK I never cease to be amazed by the way you go about procuring fire tenders in the USA.

Why do you insist on building so many of your your vehicles as custom one offs?

Sure conditions vary from city to city but how much money could you save if you left the 19th Century behind and took on board the lessons of that great American Henry Ford and started standardizing layouts and equipment fits.

OK it might be less interesting for speccing committees but you'd get better and cheaper vehicles.

If you would refrain from insulting someone while asking them a question you might actually get an answer.

[Ledebuhr1]

Having standardized fire trucks would make to much sence. Who would win a parade contest? :)

[FWDbuff]

If we left the 19th century behind??? You have balls!How can you seriously fight a fire with any kind of efficiency when you cant connect all your hoses together in a hosebed? You have to open a compartment every time, get out however many rolls you think you need, unroll them, connect them, put on the knob, and go to work- in the meantime, an American crew has already laid out a supply line, pulled a preconnect, flaked it out and put water on the fire, all before your sublieutenant has gotten his thumb out of his arse and decided what to do!

When you get that all figured out, feel free to come back and criticize us. (notice I spelled "criticize" correctly.)

[jlcooke3]

Coming from the UK I never cease to be amazed by the way you go about procuring fire tenders in the USA.

Why do you insist on building so many of your your vehicles as custom one offs?

Sure conditions vary from city to city but how much money could you save if you left the 19th Century behind and took on board the lessons of that great American Henry Ford and started standardizing layouts and equipment fits.

OK it might be less interesting for speccing committees but you'd get better and cheaper vehicles.
To be honest most are not "custom one off's". Most manufactures have a limited number of configurations. I'd be interested to know how much your standardized apparatus cost vs. our "custom" appartaus. Both our apparatus and the UK apparatus have evolved to best serve each others operational styles, water supply, manpower, and financial issues.

[BoxAlarm187]

Jumty,

First, welcome to the forum. ;)

Second, I hope that I am correct in reading that by saying "Leave the 19th century behind" your referring to the manufacturing costs that are incurred when non-standardized items are built. Am I close? I didn't read it as an insult on the American fire service.

In the grand scheme of things, the US apparatus are certainly not as standardized as the UK appliances. However, as jlcooke stated, there are more-or-less certain designs that are offered by each manufacturers. There ARE manufacturers out there that will do a custom offering to meet your needs, but generally, if you know ahead of time you're going to purchase from manufacturer "X," then "X" will tell you ahead of time what they have to offer you.

I personally thought for a long time that there are too many departments that want highly customized rigs simply because they don't know that there's another department not more than 50 miles away who recently took delivery of a rig that would fill the role needed by both FD's.

This is the reason that my VFD is going to do a tag-on order when we purchase a rig in 2009. We've identified several rigs from several manufacturers that would work well for us, and we'll narrow down our decision to one particular rig when the time approaches.

[ScottAvery]

IN THE US WE CALL THEM FIRE TRUCKS I get my tenders at Burger King

[firepundit]

IN THE US WE CALL THEM FIRE TRUCKS I get my tenders at Burger King

Actually, they are called tenders by the U.S. Forest Service.

[firepundit]

A question for you salespeople out there? When was the last time you bid a truck and did not have to request special pricing?

In my own experience, I can't remember the last time.

[CanadianFyrTrks]

Didn't they use horses back in the 19th century?

I would think the horses would take offence to your "One-Off" comment.

[npfd801]

A question for you salespeople out there? When was the last time you bid a truck and did not have to request special pricing?

In my own experience, I can't remember the last time.

This is the norm (requesting factory support) for me, but some of it is the way the company I sell for structures things.

I'm not against the customization of rigs. Personally, the big bits are all "plug and play" anyway. The plumbing is no different than plumbing a building to me, as are the compartments. It isn't like we're re-engineering a foam system, generator, or pump for every customer. Should we all build spec houses that look identical too? If JoeBlow F.D. wants a rig that can carry 10 PPV fans, more power to them. Maybe they have a legit reason... (NO, I haven't had that request. Yet.)

I just see most things as a set of building blocks that we assemble together to fit a department's needs. The really weird stuff may be a bit odd, but if this form of government waste keeps morale high for people serving their community often for free, I'm willing to accept that.

[StevieWonder]

How can you seriously fight a fire with any kind of efficiency when you cant connect all your hoses together in a hosebed? You have to open a compartment every time, get out however many rolls you think you need, unroll them, connect them, put on the knob, and go to work- in the meantime, an American crew has already laid out a supply line, pulled a preconnect, flaked it out and put water on the fire, all before your sublieutenant has gotten his thumb out of his arse and decided what to do!

I actually quite take offence at this.

How can you Yanks seriously fight a fire with any kind of efficiency when you keep all your hose folded up several feet off the ground? Folding is ridiculously inefficient when compared with rolling. Whilst you're busy flaking out your preconnect/crosslay/speedlay, and your crew are donning their sunglasses so they can see the appliance for all the functionless chrome on it, the British crew has already wound out one of the HP reels and is attacking the typical car fire we get over here. The majority of fires we put out are done on tank water. That means we don't have a need to lay a supply line out.

Your typical US fire department has quite different requirements to our typical Brit fire and rescue service. Bring one of your shiny rigs with your 'efficient' hose beds over to Britain and put it on the run one day. I assure you, next to a standard British appliance it'd be pretty inferior for our conditions. So each to their own, eh?

I'm sorry if that came over rather strong, I' done now. We're all on the same side remember!

[WoodbridgeFFII]

I actually quite take offence at this.

How can you Yanks seriously fight a fire with any kind of efficiency when you keep all your hose folded up several feet off the ground? Folding is ridiculously inefficient when compared with rolling. Whilst you're busy flaking out your preconnect/crosslay/speedlay, and your crew are donning their sunglasses so they can see the appliance for all the functionless chrome on it, the British crew has already wound out one of the HP reels and is attacking the typical car fire we get over here. The majority of fires we put out are done on tank water. That means we don't have a need to lay a supply line out.

Your typical US fire department has quite different requirements to our typical Brit fire and rescue service. Bring one of your shiny rigs with your 'efficient' hose beds over to Britain and put it on the run one day. I assure you, next to a standard British appliance it'd be pretty inferior for our conditions. So each to their own, eh?

I'm sorry if that came over rather strong, I' done now. We're all on the same side remember!What company builds most of the UK fire apparatus or tenders and how much do they cost ? Most of the equipment used here in the U.S.A. are way over priced!

[FWDbuff]

I actually quite take offence at this.[/I]

Stevie, relax.....I was breaking Jumty's balls for his "19th century" comment. But it's quite apparent he doesnt have any, as he hasnt been back.

[Station25C1]

I actually quite take offence at this.

How can you Yanks seriously fight a fire with any kind of efficiency when you keep all your hose folded up several feet off the ground? Folding is ridiculously inefficient when compared with rolling. Whilst you're busy flaking out your preconnect/crosslay/speedlay, and your crew are donning their sunglasses so they can see the appliance for all the functionless chrome on it, the British crew has already wound out one of the HP reels and is attacking the typical car fire we get over here. The majority of fires we put out are done on tank water. That means we don't have a need to lay a supply line out.

Your typical US fire department has quite different requirements to our typical Brit fire and rescue service. Bring one of your shiny rigs with your 'efficient' hose beds over to Britain and put it on the run one day. I assure you, next to a standard British appliance it'd be pretty inferior for our conditions. So each to their own, eh?

I'm sorry if that came over rather strong, I' done now. We're all on the same side remember!



The reason you chaps can put out a car fire with a tank of water is the cars you drive are less than half the size of my bathroom. And why would you need to make long lays? your country is about half the size of my Fire district.

I will attach a Pic of a one of custom U.S. truck so you can put it on the wall at the station to have something to aspire to someday.

Or is that after you figure out how to fix your teeth and get a tan?

[CanadianFyrTrks]

I know that the boys in Bermuda loved the Dennis Trucks, when I was dealing with them

http://www.johndennisfire.co.uk/

I would think Bronto Crept out from the European Market (Not sure what they are mounted to though)

http://www.bronto.fi/sivu.aspx?taso=0&id=28

That's where these guys came from.....

http://www.rosenbauer.com/index.php?node_id=10232

I'm not so sure that many large American Manufacturers have made there way across the pond like a few have done here.

[StevieWonder]

There's quite a few manufacturers over here, though none as big as the likes of some of the US companies. Main ones:


John Dennis Coacbuilders (http://www.johndennisfire.co.uk/)
The Vehicle Application Centre (http://www.tvac.co.uk/fire/default.asp)
Emergency One - I don't know if they are any way related to your E-One (www.emergencyone.co.uk/)


Some smaller manufacturers (not necessarily in company size, just in domestic apparatus output - Carmichael mainly does ARFF):

Carmichael (http://www.carmichael-int.co.uk/)
Angloco (http://www.anglovo.co.uk)


Recently a company called Firebuy Ltd. (http://www.firebuy.gov.uk/) was started, with the mission statement: 'Firebuy Limited was established in 2006 to deliver Fire and Rescue Service (FRS) procurement at a national level.' As far as I gather, it's meant to foster innovation and allow smaller brigades to group together and buy in bulk, knocking prices down.

As for the cost of an appliance, I've attached a picture breakdown from Nottinghamshire FRS, which is a bit South from me. I haven't checked, but if you add all that it up supposedly comes to £195,350. Google's first result for 'currency converter' tells me that's US $381,681. That'll probably be when bought 15+ at a time (the norm over here), and with inflation I'm guessing that'll have topped $400k with ease now.

Station25C1, so we've determined not that British fire appliances are too small, but that American cars are too big. I thought as much. :p Maybe if you brought that'd custom American appliance over here it would need that hose bed. 'Cause there's no way that'd fit down many of our streets. You'd have to park at the end and run a long hose all the way to the scene!

CanadianFyrTrks, Bronto is indeed a European company. They're from Finland and are mounted to the normal kind of chassis used for our fire appliance. Example picture attached.

[StevieWonder]

Oh another thing Station25C1, what's the axle loading on that custom you posted? It looks as though it'd fall through the street into the sewer over here. :eek: Also, if it's overall weight is over 18,000kg (39,000 pounds), it won't be road legal over here. That's the maximum for a two axle vehicle.

[mcaldwell]

This is getting good.

Just to give the Yanks some credit, they have one truly unique factor in thier design considerations, that the Brits don't; Geography.

The US has weather ranging from -40C (Alaska aside), to +40C, and massive snowfall 40+ feet, to rainfall of 40+ inches. Terrain from lush old growth forest, to high desert, to swampland, to snow 8 months of the year.

There is no possible way to build a single rig design that would accomodate every corner and region of the USA or North America.

Even in britian and the UK, there has got to be some variation by region and service, and the climate and geography are far less diverse.

I think it can be argued pretty clearly that there is a lot of "flash" in the US and Canadian Fire Service apparatus, but not necessarily at the expense of form OVER function. The trucks all have very similar pumps and drivetrains at the heart of them.

And don't forget, the UK is just as "socialist" as Canada, and we generally like to invest in standardization when there is a perceived benefit. The USA fights it every step of the way, but they are the first to paint a flag on thier truck, or shine the snot out of it in the name of individual Pride. ;)

[firetdriver99]

The US Apparatus are not as Customed as you think. While for the most a typical US Engine and Ladder all have pretty much the same standard items on it. You can only put so much on one of these things. Yes our apparatus are more expensive but that is becuase are chassis and Frame rails are more sturdy, we dont have the luxury or having the european well kept roads. We also dont have the maintenence facilities that you do. In short US Fire apparatus have to be built like tanks and yes they are going to cost more you have to pay for quality. Also our Ladder companies the reason those trucks are so big is our ladders are expected to do more than the europena counterparts. Our pumps are bigger because typically the US has larger fire loads due to the fact a majority of our buildings are bigger and have larger rooms. As engineering standards get to be the same the European fire apparatus will eventaully have to grow with it. Not saying we do everything right over here, we dont and have learned some lesson off the europeans, we also dont do everything wrong. Our apparatus are more expensive and the way we load our hose is different, but it is for a reason. Would one of our fire engine work in london, I doubt it would get around the streets very well, but in the same sense bring a london fire truck over hear on my roads and the Hollows I have to take our trucks up in, I will be sending it back to you in pieces in a box within a week. Also fire apparatus magazine just did a study and the average cost of american apparatus vs european apparatus was about the same considering yours are built on commercal chassis not true customs built for the fire service, thats nothing to brag about.

[Rescue101]

Stevie,the reason we can work with our hose set several feet off the ground is we INVENTED the SYSTEM. You guys don't hold all the patents to new ideas ya know:p .It really isn't that hard to figure out.You're incensed? Good,let's make our way to the pub,hoist a few and get it figured out.Who knows,you might even get to LIKE it,hehe T.C.

[gdickerman]

I love the Unimogs on the Dennis website. It is too bad they weren't too successful here.

We also must not forget that we have taken on many Euro innovations in the past few years, such as:
-roll-up doors
-CAFS
-LDH reels
-chevrons

The previous poster made the great argument that their apparatus fill their needs and ours fill our needs.

[donethat]

The Uni-Mog is an amazing chassis. I got to drive one many years ago. It had an optional 13 speed (I think) transmission with a two speed transfer case. You could put it in low-low range and floor the throttle and had to watch a spot on the ground to see that the vehicle was actually moving it was geared so low. But you could pull out tree stumps with that set up.

The Germans must have a hundred different implements for the Uni-Mog. From mowers to plows to drills to graders to front end loaders to you name it.

One minor problem with the Uni-Mog, It is extreamly expensive!! That's why it will never be a large commercial success in this country.

http://unimogsales.com/unimog-accessories.html

[herbroberson]

Stevie,the reason we can work with our hose set several feet off the ground is we INVENTED the SYSTEM. You guys don't hold all the patents to new ideas ya know:p .It really isn't that hard to figure out.You're incensed? Good,let's make our way to the pub,hoist a few and get it figured out.Who knows,you might even get to LIKE it,hehe T.C.


I personally think old Stevie boy needs to just stay where he is and drink his warm pint of brew with his other limey pals....the good ole' boys in the good ole' USA at least do aggressive interior attacks...more than most across the pond do.:rolleyes:
(and this is sent tongue in cheek...ALL fiefighters everywhere worldwide always do their very best with waht the politicians give us for people having their worst experience ever)

[Rescue101]

I wouldn't slam an outhouse door that hard. While I don't mind an occasional poke at my brothers and sisters across the pond,I find that they have been instrumental in bringing some stuff to US that we use daily. LDH comes to mind. Granted they might do things a bit different than we do but there have been enough injuries and LODD's to convince me that they don't just sit on the sidelines and watch the show.If you have bothered to read some of Steve's postings you will find that all are informative and many will give rise to a rethinking of the way we do business day to day. Go across the pond,and you'll find a lot of common ground in roundtable discussions: provided you check your attitude at the door.I have the highest regard for these FF's, just as I do my Texas bretheren (despite their inclination to wear turnout coats on their heads).Yep,the pokin' stick again. We ALL go about the business with our little quirks,doesn't make a bit of difference as long as the incident gets handled and the crew goes home safe. If I live long enough I hope to do some traveling and meet some of the people I've had so much fun with here.Particularly some of my brothers from Houston and DFW who have spent a bunch of valuable time trying to convince me they're RIGHT! In BBQ,maybe,hehe T.C.

[DonRobbie]

Part of the issue is we are much less standardized in what different fire agencies do. Some departments are running ALS services with Paramedics, others have no EMS duties at all. Manpower varies wildly as well. FDNY can run separate Engines and Trucks with distinct functions, but many mid sized cities are running quints because they don't have the manpower to staff a truck company.

As MCaldwell pointed out, a lot of the differences are geography related as well. A typical midwestern rural rig will be on a conventional (bonneted) medium duty chassis with a 1000-1500 GPM midship pump and a 1000 gallon tank. Not a lot of Chrome or extra lights and it probably was built "on spec" without much, if any, customization. Travel from one town to the next in the area and they're pretty much all the same. A rescue pumper like Station 25 posted is more typical of the Northeast. Travel from one town to the next in the area and they're pretty much all the same.

[malana1]

The reason you chaps can

put out a car fire with a tank of water is the cars you drive are less than half the size of my bathroom. And why would you need to make long lays? your country is about half the size of my Fire district.

I will attach a Pic of a one of custom U.S. truck so you can put it on the wall at the station to have something to aspire to someday.

Or is that after you figure out how to fix your teeth and get a tan?

get a tan and fix your teeth...

http://www.customcomedy.net/AustinPowers.jpg