What SCBA are you buying and why

[centralfire]

Just wondering what is the SCBA of choice this year? Why? How much are you paying? Were looing at Scott 4500 2-45min bottles. Single line EBSS, QD regulator, PASS, AV3000 for $5250.00. Doenst seem like that greatof a deal to me. What you kids think?

[islandfire03]

$5250.00 is the max the feds are allowing for airpacks, Thats why you got that price from your scott rep.

And yes that does seem high, but see the above!!

Just for the record we bought MSA 4.5's for considerably less than with last years award.

[MoneyMan29]

We were awarded for SCBA in 2006. Our department had been always MSA. We lined up MSA, Scott, and Dreager for demo. MSA came in and the guy was new but had access to a company rep with more experience. He started off by saying, MSA is new to me so im going to be learning as well tonight about this unit. I stopped listening there. Draeger came in, very good piece of equipment. Not one down fall of the equipment. Im a volly chief and work in a career place that has Scott. Scott came in and gave a good presentation. I was familiar with it and liked it. I let the guys make up their mind on the SCBA. They all like the Scott and Draeger. Our decision came down that over 90% of the companies had Scott so interoperability was to go with Scott. I would not hesitate though to buy Draeger.

[Limeforever]

As moneyman mention, interoperability should be heavily considered when you make your purchase. We also had MSA, Draeger, Scott, and we also had Survivair in as well. We had MSA, I wear draeger when I teach for the college, and was familiar with Scott. The reps for all of the companies gave good demos, explained the great points of their respective apps. The Scott rep brought a regional guy with him to help with pricing. We were ready to buy the scotts, but after the regional rep said that we were to small of a department, and could not afford the new 4.5's, (We had 4800 per pack, 800 for a spare bottle, and 300 for each member their own mask as well as a fit test) all members of the board voted for MSA. Had them for three years, no problems. Look at your available service after the sale and future support. All of the departments around us all now have MSA (Had a mix before the grants) so the regional rep cost them about 200 packs total.

[neiowa]

Just wondering what is the SCBA of choice this year? Why? How much are you paying? Were looing at Scott 4500 2-45min bottles. Single line EBSS, QD regulator, PASS, AV3000 for $5250.00. Doenst seem like that greatof a deal to me. What you kids think?

Loose the EBSS/QD regulator. Unless you're going to train on it extensively (like full time FD) more of distraction that a useful capability improvement. And expensive. The QD regulator gains you nothing unless you plan to issue individual regulators for which there is no logical need. You're low on air get out and rehab, if you can't get out so you need RIT/RIC not the EBSS.

Instead spend the $ on adding Pak-Tracker, voice amps, and twin pak filters. Can this get done for your budget for 4500psi AP75 or NxG.

You'll have to plan spend some time training on Pak-Tracker but a great tool.

[Not2L84U2]

I would look real hard before you go with NxG. I have limited experience with them but have heard plenty from departments that use them AND actually fight fire.

[Catch22]

I'd find another quote and see how you fare. NEIOWA has some good thoughts on the subject as well.

While I've never had an NxG on my back, I've not been impressed with them so far. We stuck with the AP 50's when we got ours, and I'm sure our next ones will be the AP 75's. The basic design has worked for years, why change now?

[centralfire]

Loose the EBSS/QD regulator. Unless you're going to train on it extensively (like full time FD) more of distraction that a useful capability improvement. And expensive. The QD regulator gains you nothing unless you plan to issue individual regulators for which there is no logical need. You're low on air get out and rehab, if you can't get out so you need RIT/RIC not the EBSS.

Instead spend the $ on adding Pak-Tracker, voice amps, and twin pak filters. Can this get done for your budget for 4500psi AP75 or NxG.

You'll have to plan spend some time training on Pak-Tracker but a great tool.

The EBSS allows the RIT to be hooked in right? I think every possible option for more air would be better...right? Help me out if im missing something

[onebugle]

The EBSS allows the RIT to be hooked in right? I think every possible option for more air would be better...right? Help me out if im missing something

The RIC/UAC allows the RIT pack to be connected to the SCBA to refill a cylinder under emergency conditions. The EBSS is the "buddy breathing" system where 2 firefighters can breathe off one cylinder, not an acceptable procedure by NFPA.

[WD6956]

The RIC/UAC allows the RIT pack to be connected to the SCBA to refill a cylinder under emergency conditions. The EBSS is the "buddy breathing" system where 2 firefighters can breathe off one cylinder, not an acceptable procedure by NFPA.

I was under the impression that the EBSS will allow you to "buddy breathe" from another pack wearer as well as allow the connection of an external air source such as a supplied air line from a cascade system OR from a portable air source like a RIT Pack tank. That is how the dealer here explained it to me.

[onebugle]

I was under the impression that the EBSS will allow you to "buddy breathe" from another pack wearer as well as allow the connection of an external air source such as a supplied air line from a cascade system OR from a portable air source like a RIT Pack tank. That is how the dealer here explained it to me.

Yes, that is correct (at least with Scott any way). The EBSS allows 2 firefighters to "buddy breathe", connect to remote source up to 300' away and an additional connection for the RIT pack to be able to hook up to.

The problem it's an expensive option that manufacturers push that NFPA does not condone (buddy breathing) & NIOSH has not certified (equipment). OSHA allows it if it does not interfere with the normal operation of the SCBA.

Better to use that funding to train firefighters so they have intimate knowledge of SCBA use, components, emergency procedures, trouble shooting and recognizing a bad situation before they get into trouble etc.

[CaptAP69]

Well said onebugle. Not a fan of the buddy breathing concept at all. My department will not get them, the departments around us that got them will not use them. Just another expensive option. We kept it simple, got the rit packs with 1 hour cylinders, had the manufacturer strip our rit packs down to just the pressure reducer, six feet of low pressure hose and the regulator with a mask. Very simple, do a regulator swap out or put a mask on, no confusion. Gives the downed firefighter the air he needs and us the time to solve the problem whether entanglement or just getting him out.

[islandfire03]

Maybe there's scott salesmen that like to "Buddy breathe" . They sure like to stick it to the customer

[lfdmichael]

It looks like departmetns are doing their due diligence with demo's, trying out all major brands and considering interoperability. So not to break off in a non brand specific route...but.

Were you able to get the units you wanted for $5,250 or did you have to put in some additional $

[MoneyMan29]

Our 2006 grant, which wasn't awarded til February of 2007, was for $5,400 for SCBA - 30 minute pack, face piece, and spare bottle. We got 10 of the Scott AP50 with the CBRNE regulator AV 3000 face piece voice amplifier and EBSS. We were funded $550 for an additional 9 face pieces.

The NxG pack, you better look at closely. I didn't feel it was a pack that would withstand time and wear and tear. I looked at that option as well.

And yes the Pak Tracker is nice and can come in useful when needed, however that is a piece of equipment that is expensive. Yes, I will probably one day try and update our packs with it, but for now the PASS will do cause I dont have the funds for the Pak Tracker.

The EBSS, yes it may not be recognized or approved but, the way I look at it, it gives you another option to assist one of your own in an extreme emergency. I work in a career dept. and yes we did extensive training on it, about 40 hours of class room and hands on training. We repeat the training every year and use the packs on a regular basis. The volunteer department I am with we did the training and hands on, but the use is not as great as the career dept. I do try and keep the guys working with it and put them in a training situation to practice with the connection. That being said, I'm one that if there is an available piece of equipment that I could purchase with my funds that would allow more options to save one of my own, I'm going to purchase it.

Our 2008 grant was for RIT equipment and I'm sure there are critics out there that would say i spent $44,600 on equipment that may never be used. But I as chief and incident command on a scene, I know what equipment I have available to me to save one of my own. With that 44k we got almost any piece of RIT equipment you could think of and not only once, but my justificiation to FEMA was to have 2, 1 as a back up. Ok i rambled enough

[neiowa]

There is at least one of the two major SCBA mfgs that pushes their "buddy" breathing approach (gimmick) as being the greatest thing since sliced bread (read that as something "unique" that the other major SCBA mfg does not endorse/push so buy from us).

If you ask/tell the salesman for either mfg you want buddy breathing they will price it to you. For Scott this is EBSS or Dual EBSS (which you want if you have a aerial with breathing air or going to use airline). As general practice Scott sales does not push buddy breathing (EBSS). I think a bad idea in general.

Bad idea filling cylinders while on your back and now you have two FF with low air. Find a solution that is a solution.

If you didn't include a RIT bag in your grant app fer shame fer shame. Take those "buddy breathing"/EBSS $ and buy a RIT bag.

[neiowa]

I would look real hard before you go with NxG. I have limited experience with them but have heard plenty from departments that use them AND actually fight fire.

I've used extensively. My FD purchased in 2005 with FG. And we paid extra $300ea to buy NxG. NO regrets at all. One of the smart thing decisions we made.

A major advance in SCBA as far as I'm concerned. No problems at all. Quick and easy to change out cylinders.

5yrs ago the 1st NxG had electronic/battery life problems that were all fixed (under warranty) long ago. All the major components in NxG and AP except the quick attach fitting.

Can now buy the NxG and AP for the same price.

I think very few FD that actually pass SCBA bottles around. For the big ones typically have an air trailer show up from mutual aid to handle refills.

[jpu535]

Just a slight deviation from the thread. I was curious about bottle capacity and figured I would throw this out to see if anyone can come up with an answer. I want to compare the 4500 psi 45 cubic foot bottle to the 3000 psi 60 cubic foot bottle in terms of available air supply. Now, if you use Boyle's Law (P x V=K) where P is the bottle pressure and V is the volume of the bottle and K is the resultant constant, it would tell you that the 45 cubic foot bottle holds a little more air than the 60 cubic foot at the stated pressures. However, there is a twist and it relates to available Liters of air. Where Luxfer, the bottle manufacturer, states in their specs that a 2215 psi 60 cubic foot bottle has exactly the same amount of Liters as a 4500 psi 45 cubic foot bottle but also that the 4500 psi 45 bottle has less Liters than the 3000 psi 60 cubic foot bottle.

The last I knew, pressure and volume were inversely proportional, assuming the temperatures are the same. I must be missing something or my math is all wrong so I am looking for some fresh input.

The bottom line question is will going from a 3000 psi 60 cubic foot to a 4500 psi 45 cubic foot bottle provide the same duration, longer duration, or less duration in terms of air supply to work in a hazardous environment. I know, from experience, that the duration on the 3000 psi bottle is approximately 20 minutes but for the people using the 4500 psi 45 cubic foot bottle what is your average time in the hazard environment?

[Catch22]

Just a slight deviation from the thread. I was curious about bottle capacity and figured I would throw this out to see if anyone can come up with an answer. I want to compare the 4500 psi 45 cubic foot bottle to the 3000 psi 60 cubic foot bottle in terms of available air supply. Now, if you use Boyle's Law (P x V=K) where P is the bottle pressure and V is the volume of the bottle and K is the resultant constant, it would tell you that the 45 cubic foot bottle holds a little more air than the 60 cubic foot at the stated pressures. However, there is a twist and it relates to available Liters of air. Where Luxfer, the bottle manufacturer, states in their specs that a 2215 psi 60 cubic foot bottle has exactly the same amount of Liters as a 4500 psi 45 cubic foot bottle but also that the 4500 psi 45 bottle has less Liters than the 3000 psi 60 cubic foot bottle.

The last I knew, pressure and volume were inversely proportional, assuming the temperatures are the same. I must be missing something or my math is all wrong so I am looking for some fresh input.

The bottom line question is will going from a 3000 psi 60 cubic foot to a 4500 psi 45 cubic foot bottle provide the same duration, longer duration, or less duration in terms of air supply to work in a hazardous environment. I know, from experience, that the duration on the 3000 psi bottle is approximately 20 minutes but for the people using the 4500 psi 45 cubic foot bottle what is your average time in the hazard environment?

No offense, my engineering mind-frame is out of commission tonight, but isn't this why they have the minute ratings? A 30-minute 2216 holds about the same amount of air as a 30 minute 3000 or 4500 bottle?

Isn't the "cubic feet" or "liter" rating how much 1 ATM and ambient temperature air it takes to compressand fill the bottle at it's rated psi?

[RES81CUE]

Scott Air Packs.... Interobility

[WJVaughn]

never mind, too early and not enough sleep.

[cctrtlt2]

Well here is my situation with air packs. In 2003 we were awarded a grant for packs and bottles and went with scott and replaced 9 of our 13 packs. that left us with 9 new 4500 packs and four old 2216 packs. The decision at the time was reported to be due to funding and the matching share.

This year I have an 1199a update for my 2008 grant with my 2008 application number, but have heard nothing further at this point. I asked for funding to replace the four packs, a rit pack and a complete compressor fill station. I have not had any information on reductions yet, and wonder if they will reduce my pack request due to the circumstances of my pack situation.

i will be happy at anything I do get awarded, and find a way to get the extra money. I have already told my Scott dealer that it sounds like his pencil is gonna have to get sharper.