My impressions on CAFS from the Big Three

[simpleguy68]

The last year or so, I've been researching the different midship-pump CAFS systems available from Hale, Waterous, and Darley. I haven't had a chance to look at the Pierce Hercules system and the only info I have is second-hand from an acquaintance who works for a department that has it. His opinion was not very positive.

Both Darley and Hale brought their demo truck to our station and a local department took delivery of a Waterous Eclipse last year and I got to observe their delivery training.

Without going into a discussion of the internal mechanics, I focused on the differences in operation.

First, the Waterous and Darley system operate pretty much the same. There is a separate air switch for each CAFS line and air is injected downstream from the water valve, allowing you to adjust wet-dry by gating the water valve. To make CAF, you put the pump in gear, turn on the foam system, turn on the compressor, open the appropriate water valve, then turn on the air valve.

This has several advantages and disadvantages. First, it allows you to have infinite adjustments to how wet or dry the foam can be, and it allows different lines to have different consistencies. It even gives you the option to flow only air, which could be used in a confined space rescue. BUT, it also allows you to flow only air during firefighting operations, which isn't a good thing and it requires someone to be fairly familiar with the system to operate it effectively.

The Hale system is slightly different, in that it injects the air into the water/foam mixture upstream of the water valve and this is electronically controlled. Also, the foam system and compressor start automatically when the pump is put in gear (this is optional on the other two) and the pump-to-tank valve opens. The air valve will not open unless foam is flowing, so slug flow is eliminated. So, to make CAF, you put the pump in gear and open the appropriate discharge, that's it. Adjustments to wet-dry are made via the electronic controller and apply to all CAFS discharges.

What are the disadvantages? No infinite wet-dry, all lines have the same consistency (which can also be an advantage), and no ability to run just air for rescue scenarios. BUT, you also don't have to worry about opening a nozzle and getting nothing but air. There's also the worry of having the electronics fail, but the worst case scenario still allows you to pump plain water.

So what was my conclusion? They all do a great job of making CAF, but for a volunteer department that doesn't have assigned operators, the simplicity of the Hale system wins out. For a department that has assigned operators, the flexibility of the other two merit serious consideration.

Does anyone out there have any of these systems? What has been your experience as far as use and maintenance? Anybody have the Pierce system?

[CaptLou]

Hi simpleguy68,

I learned along time ago that sometimes there is a "trade off of something" for simplicity. I would suggest that you look into the mechanical aspect and continue to ask questions.

My department has a Waterous Eclipse. We leave our "Tank to Pump" open all the time and the "tank fill" cracked open for circulation of water.

We leave the "CAFS Engage" switch "ON" all the time.

My foam proportioner turns on automatically, when powered up.

We are using an electronic pressure governor with a "Preset" button.

We are using Elkhart electric valves with a preset button.

So, my pump operators engage the pump in the cab, go to the pump panel and press the “preset” on the pressure governor, and then once the line is deployed, pushes the "Preset" button on the water valve and then turns on the "air switch". We get near perfect 2:1 CAFS every time. So to summarize, after the pump is engaged in the cab, my operators do “Push, Push, Switch”. Doesn’t get much more “simpler” than that. And I still have manual control of each components if needed.

Since we took delivery of our Eclipse last year, Elkhart has come out with a new Electric control valve specifically designed to work with CAFSytems, called the “Intelligent CAF Selector (ICS)”. It has three presets and automatically turns the air on after a few seconds of the water valve opening. I wish I could have purchased these valves as they eliminate a step. You still have manual control of the both the water and air if desired

You mentioned that the ability to flow “air only” could be a problem. We have been using CAFS since 1998 and have not had any issues with flowing air only. One of the positives of being able to flow "air only" is that after each time we use a CAFS line we use the compressor to "blow" the line out. It only takes a minute or so to push all the water out of 150 feet of 1 3/4" line. My guys do not have to "walk the line" out. We blow it out and then re-rack it.

Hope this helps. If you are going to FDIC or any other trade show, I would suggest that you stop by all of the manufacturers’ that you mention and ask lots of questions. Most of them have a display of their CAFS units and can explain and show you why and how they do what they do.

Also ask each manufacturer what CAFS training do you get with the purchase? I know that Waterous gives you up to 3 days of CAFS instruction at your fire station when you take delivery of the engine.

Be safe,
Captain Lou
“Got Foam?”

[simpleguy68]

Thanks for the response Lou. Trust me, I've talked with all of the manufacturers over and over, with Neil Brooks from Darley and Marvin Johns of Hale. Each believes their system is the best and easiest to use.

I also forgot to mention the Darley Autovalve, which is similar to the Elkhart valve you mention, that gives you the ability to electronically control the CAFS similar to what the Hale does, but on each individual discharge line. This is an option. I believe the Elkhart valve you have is also an option, not standard. Livingston's engine (Waterous Eclipse) used the standard ball valve to control water flow and, therefore, CAFS wet-dry, as did the Darley demo that we looked at. IIRC, the pre-set for the Hale system is 2:1 CAFS.

I agree that simplicity in one area generally means complexity somewhere else and that complexity can lead to other issues.

What I do know is that after looking at the Hale system, my guys are sold on CAFS. This was not the case after the Darley demo. Both put out excellent CAFS, its just the complexity of operating the Darley, with manual adjustements, etc. clouded their opinion. The Hale system was as easy, if not easier, to use than our "normal" plain water pumper. BUT, we're all volunteer without assigned operators because we never know who'll show up for a call.

After looking at the Elkhart ICS, it does appear that that puts the Waterous system on par with the Hale as far as ease of use, especially if it switches on the air valve for you and monitors the wet-dry.

[Hehateme]

As one of my young punks around the fire house would say, "Dude"!

What about the Hercules CAFS from Pierce?

First of all it sits on top of the already proven Pierce Husky 12. Second, it is much easier to operate than any of those other units.

Since the crew is using the Husky 12 for all of the other foam needs, they don't need to learn a different system for Class B.

I hate to say it, they got a winner with that one.

[GreggGeske]

simpleguy68

I applaud you for doing your homework. My department has three CAFS engines from one of the three. Since I also work for them I tend to be somewhat biased. We are a volunteer department and have never had issue with flowing air only by accident at a fire. Slug flow really is not an issue with the option of the foam system being auto-run. If you would like to discuss maintenance please e-mail me or give me a call. 612 963-5160

[simpleguy68]

As one of my young punks around the fire house would say, "Dude"!

What about the Hercules CAFS from Pierce?

First of all it sits on top of the already proven Pierce Husky 12. Second, it is much easier to operate than any of those other units.

Since the crew is using the Husky 12 for all of the other foam needs, they don't need to learn a different system for Class B.

I hate to say it, they got a winner with that one.

Like I said in my original post, I've not looked at the Hercules CAFS. The only experience I have with it is anecdotal tales from an acquaintance who is an Lt. on a paid department that has one. His take, it's a POS, though he does like the Husky 12 system.

From what I've seen as far as researching the system, I don't know how you can claim it's easier to use than the others. The compressor is PTO driven, so you have to engage that in addition to the pump. With the other systems, the compressor runs off the pump. I can't find any literature on the Pierce site regarding the actual operation of the system, as far as the steps required to actually get CAF to the nozzle, so I really can't comment on that.

[mmagette]

We use the Pierce system here. it is easy to use and Pierce sent a trainer to help us get the hang of it. Only time we have had any slug flow was when we were unknowingly out of foam.

[GFDeng9]

Have you called and asked Waterous to come out? I know they love to come to the firehouse and do demos, they have done many in our area.

Our nieghboring department has a Huskey system that is a bit more than 2yrs old and it has ended up in the shop everytime they have tried to use it. Everytime it goes in another very expensive part is broken, rusted or it is an electric issue.

[islandfire03]

What GFD said:

We have a Waterous eclipse system on our 2000 engine and for the most part it has been flawless. a couple of minor 5 dollar air line fittings leaked and needed to be replaced but other than that when you need it it works.

A mutual aid town has the husky system on a 2006 engine and 9 times out of 10 it fails to work properly. They are at the point of not even trying to use it cause they know it will break.
Used the hale system at a fire attack school last year . Seemed to be a well thought out design fairly easy to use.

[simpleguy68]

Haven't called Waterous, but did observe Livingston's delivery training, which was even more thorough than a typical demo.

Which brings up an interesting question, and I'm certainly not trying to sling mud, BUT if you have to have three days of delivery training, what does that say about the complexity of your system? Just something to chew on...

[chiefengineer11]

Haven't called Waterous, but did observe Livingston's delivery training, which was even more thorough than a typical demo.

Which brings up an interesting question, and I'm certainly not trying to sling mud, BUT if you have to have three days of delivery training, what does that say about the complexity of your system? Just something to chew on...
In our case it wasn't so much "how to operate" our Waterous Eclipse/Advantus as it was getting everyone a chance to do it multiple times. In a career department or station, not everyone will be there at the same time. Ditto a volunteer station such as ours.

Our instructor (Capt. Lou) made sure that we all got to go through it as many times as we wanted to (remember, practice makes perfect) until we could work it in our sleep. We did the training at a neighboring department's training tower with live fire. That way, members on the smoky end got as much experience using CAFS as drivers did supplying it. We used different proportions of air, foam and water to see the effects on different fire scenaria.

As you pointed out in an earlier post, there are an almost infinite number of settings that can be made with that system as well as the Darley. We all got to make a variety of the different settings. We, the drivers, and the hand line personnel got to see how they performed.

So it is time well spent and we appreciate it having been made available to us.

Stay safe out there, everyone goes home!

[sdff1520]

Which brings up an interesting question, and I'm certainly not trying to sling mud, BUT if you have to have three days of delivery training, what does that say about the complexity of your system? Just something to chew on...

As I understand the Waterous training offering; it isn't three days because it takes three days to do the actual class, it's because on a career full time department it usually takes three full shifts in order to reach ALL of the firefighters. Thus the same training each of the three days for three different groups of firefighters.

[CaptLou]

sdff1520,

You are correct as you have stated with regards to a career department or a combination department.

As for the volunteer departments, the instructional classes can be spread out over a 3 consecutive day period. What that means is that a CAFS class can be taught in the evening and/or daytime periods. I have done Friday evening classroom sessions, repeated the classroom on Saturday morning and then done hands-on sessions on Saturday afternoon and then again Sunday morning. The scheduling of the CAFS instructional training is flexible and set up between each respective instructor and the department. The dealer or salesperson doesn't set it up.

Waterous allows "up to" three consecutive days of instructional training, regardless if the department is Volunteer or Career.

I have also done just a Friday evening classroom and Saturday morning hands-on, or an all day class on Saturday and/or Sunday consisting of classroom in the AM and hands-on in the afternoon. It is all up to the fire department to decide after they take delivery of their truck. And the instructional training is included in price of most of the CAFSystem from Waterous, not an extra from the dealer. There are some CAF units from Waterous that do not include instructional training and a list of the units can be found on their website www.waterousco.com . For those CAFSystems without instructional training included, it can be purchased from Waterous. It is money well “invested”.

The instructional training also includes maintenance of the system as well.

Hope this helps,

Captain Lou
"Got Foam?"

[sdff1520]

I'm looking forward to the Waterous CAFS Training. We ordered a new Engine end of December 2008 with a Waterous pump and 200CFM CAFS. Expected delivery roughly December 2009 or so. The Waterous training was included with our purchase.

[KyleWickman]

Hi simpleguy68,



My department has a Waterous Eclipse. We leave our "Tank to Pump" open all the time and the "tank fill" cracked open for circulation of water.



Be safe,
Captain Lou
“Got Foam?”

What happen in cold weather when you have to drain the pumps? Just Asking.

[neiowa]

What happen in cold weather when you have to drain the pumps? Just Asking.

What would change? Same as current SOP. Tank to pump open, Pump to tank cracked, Heat pan on the pump house.

If still worried add a pumphouse heater.

[captaincvfd]

If you are Trained on how to use it not just pump operators but interior crews, and command and its installed correctly a bad CAF's system is still better then water or Nafs. Training the pump Operators is the least of the Training even in the Volunteer or combination setting. If you train enough with the system so your firefighters can use it effectively then you should have plenty of pump time to get your operators up to speed.
When Looking ask how long that system has been in production, some people have a new system every year or two. What kind of training and support comes with it, who can you actually speak with if you have a problem. Can you coat an exposure with a dry Foam at the same time that the attack lines are going Interior on a structure. What kind of Adjustments are in the system we like a 3-1 mixture, can you adjust your air.
One of my Favorites is when its 10 degrees out can you blow your line dry before they freeze.
We have tried most units on the market and have had an Eclipse in Service for 5 years and have just added another Eclipse and CAF's is just a switch throw away not complicated at all.

[Squad46]

Captlou:

I have heard a lot of good things about your training sessions. From what I have been told you really know your stuff. The Waterous Eclipse system is top shelf.

As fas as training goes for a career department, have your sales consultant add additional training into your specifications so all four tours are covered. As Captlou said it will cost you a little more, but it covers all four tours who will use the apparatus.

Also i'm not sure who said it, but believe me, the training that you receive isn't free. Its already included in the price of the CAFS system.

I am also seeing a lot of issues with CAFS due to the FD's lack of proper maintenance. These units are great as long as you keep up with the required weekly maintenance schedules. These systems need to be excercised! People complain about this CAFS system or that CAFS system, but it all comes down to the operator (JMHO). You have to follow protocol that has been established by the individual manufacturers. If your not going to follow it, than save your money becasue the unit will be in the shop for constint repair. But we all know that its easier to place blame on the manufacturer!

[CaptLou]

Squad46, Thank you for the compliment.

"I am also seeing a lot of issues with CAFS due to the FD's lack of proper maintenance. These units are great as long as you keep up with the required weekly maintenance schedules. These systems need to be exercised! People complain about this CAFS system or that CAFS system, but it all comes down to the operator (JMHO). You have to follow protocol that has been established by the individual manufacturers. If your not going to follow it, than save your money because the unit will be in the shop for constint repair. But we all know that its easier to place blame on the manufacturer!"

You are correct that there is additional maintenance to any CAFSystems. But they are minimal. With the Eclipse or PTO systems, it is checking the oil level for the CAFS air compressor. Usually this is as simple as looking at a site glass. Checking the foam proportioner oil level and foam concentrate tank level. And the important one is to run the air compressor at a temperature of 140 degrees or higher for 10 minutes while flowing a minimal amount of air. This should be done weekly but twice a month will work. This can be done while doing your other "truck Checks". The purpose of running the compressor is to "cook" the moisture out of the hydraulic oil. If you live in an area of the country that is subject high humidity, this REAL important. The reason you flow a minimal amount of air is to push the moisture out of the discharge.

Most of the issues I've seen over the years are directly related to the lack of simply "running the system".

Hope this helps,

Captain Lou
"Got Foam"