Changing our response to MVAs

[CaptSmith31]

Our vol. department currently responds to MVAs only when requested from the village police department or rescue squad. I would like to educate our Chief and village officials on why our response should be automatic when the call first comes in. If you have any information or know where I can get information regarding this topic please let me know. I think there was a past issue of Firehouse that covered this topic.

[iwood51]

My department's response to an MVA is 2 ambulances, 2 rescue and 1 engine. Maybe this is overkill, but I think not as we are a large district and the response can always be toned down by first arriving chief or apparatus. Other Departments around have varying response, some are no fire response unless requested, some are a chief only response. I like the idea of including the Truck and Engine response for some obvious reasons:- Safety of the ambulance crew, traffic control, vehicle stabilization, wash down, assistance to the ambulance crews to name a few.

[Lt_John]

Our department has two modes of response. #1 if no P.D. on the scene we respond with two engines, a heavy squad and an ambulance. #2 if P.D. is requesting us and no extrication is needed we respond with an engine and an ambulance. We have a very large district - over 50 sq miles so we tend to respond with more rather than calling for help later. Hope this helps.

[Fireman888]

Our department responds to all MVAs. We run a rescue unit and an engine. It is always easier to cancel a unit that you don't need.

[Tillerman]

I know that some areas around here in Washington they dispatch a rescue on accidents based on the road it happens on. For example any wreck that happens on a road with a posted speed limit of more than 40 miles per hour automaticaly gets a Rescue, an Engine, an ambulance and a Medic. Anything below 40 MPH gets an engine and an ambulance. Granted this can be altered depending on how the call is recieved at dispatch. This is an OK situation, although there have been times when the Rescue was not dispatched on the initial call and was needed however it is very seldom.

[firemanhank]

Our department responds to all MVAs. An engine, rescue, and tanker respond along with the ambulance. Due to some close calls, we have made it dept. policy to completely shut down the road until the ambulance leaves. The tanker makes an effective roadblock! All of our highways are two lane and there is no motorist with a good enough reason to hurry to endanger our EMTs. Im new to the forum and want to express my happiness in finding it. There is no end to our need to learn and this is an excellent place to do it!

[billy]

My agency responds with an ambulance, engine, and rescue. If multiple vehicles are involved, an additional ambulance will respond. It is important that regardless of the vehicles that respond, their positioning on the scene should allow traffic flow, WHILE MAINTAINING SAFETY FOR PERSONNEL. I prefer to park at least one unit prior to the scene to provide some safety for rescuers. What do you think?

[Lt621]

CaptSmith31 we automatically respond a rescue and 2 med units on all mva's. if there is entrapment we also respond an engine. One thing your chief needs to look at is response time,especially when you have to determine the amount of time is cut into the golden hour. By rescue squad i hope that your fire/rescue is not a split department. As many others have stated it is easier to cancel a unit if it is not needed, than it is to make up the lost time of getting on the scene realizing you need fire dept then calling for them,especially if it is a volunteer dept where you have to look at the time it takes the volunteers to get to the truck plus the time it takes the truck to the scene. Get em going, if you don't need them, turn them around.

[John Prentice]

Our department responds with a rescue and a pump to all MVA's with a report of injury. The reason for this is that we have learned that on rural road's most MVA's involve a high rate of speed and more often than not the injuries will be severe. If we were to wait for police to arrive to make an assesment we would then loose anywhere from 5 to 10 minutes off the golden hour. Can you trust the general untrained public to make an accurate assesment of the scene and patients,then pass this information on to the 911 operator accurately? No!!!

[Ken Niceliu]

Our Dept runs with two Rescue Pumpers to every MVA in the city or Hiway and one responds to north of the city limits with the volunteers becausewe run teired response with police and ambulance. Each Rescue Pumper is fully equiped with extrication equipment and we have four units .

[Rob]

I think the types of trucks is all relative in this situation. All departments have their vehicles set up differently. We run the vehicles with our extrication tools and BLS equipment hot to all MVA's. The pumper responds cold until such time as they are upgraded or cancelled by the first in unit. This response gives a minimum of six people on scene (not including the ambulance personnel) and a maximum of 11 firefighters. If we need more after that we get it sent out.
The ambulance service, run out of a different fire department, sends one ambulance typically. Air medivac is also placed on standby if the dispatch information sounds serious.

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[This message has been edited by Rob (edited 02-05-99).]

[Ickymow]

The department I belong to covers over 10 miles of Rt 81 in New York state and we see our fair share of MVA's. We respond a heavy rescue out of Station 1 and a engine out of Station on 2 all MVA's. Due to limited man power at Station 1 during the day times the engine was equiped with a Hurst Maveric system and can basicly hold it's own with out the rescue. We chose the Hurst system because our rescue carries a full complement of Hurst equipment on it, and the Maveric can be inchanged with the rescue system or vise versa. It works out great this way for us. If the rescue can't get out then we have the ability to do extracation off the engine. We also have one of our small light rescues respond if we have the man power to do so. One thing we did find was that our responding ambulances like to take multipule pts with them reguardless of the pt status. We made our own SOP that there is only one ALS pt or two BLS pt's per ambulance and we will call for more ambulances if needed. Face it it can get real busy in the back of an ambulance if some thing goes bad and you don't need another pt to worry about at that time.


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[cla123]

Why do so many police depts. presume they are the only public safety agency entitled to automatically respond to MVA's?

What is the public's greatest concern/fear? That some "traffic criminal" will escape?
That traffic flow will be interrupted? I think not.

I think the No.1 priority of any community is to rapidly care for any injury,so obviously the agency to dispatch first is the FD/ambulance. The only reason they (PD) are able to abuse the system in this manner is that they control the flow of information from the 911 system. "Enhanced" 911 has only made this worse.

My dept. is currently lobbying to monitor the incoming calls to 911 to prevent not being informed (or being informed too late) of MVA's,medicals, and other calls the PD deems us "not needed" on. We often get calls for MVA's over the business line; we would NEVER presume to not inform the police of this, or to wait until an engine arrives on scene to do so-- that would be irresponsible,arrogant, and dangerous to the public.

It baffles me why the police don't feel the same way.


[Note: This message has been edited by rmoore]

[SCCARESCUE]

Capt Smith you are not alone. I assume from your posting that your ambulance or rescue is separate from your fire dept. Given that scenario, there are many villages around that have adopted the same response criteria. Unfortunately the reason for it is closer than you may think. We are quick to assume that the PD has a grudge against us, or we think that they believe they are the "superior authority" or we assume that the PD considers our part of the equation a minor one. However, that is usually not the case. What it comes down to is US. We are quick to respond to the call. The truck is on the road as soon as minimum staffing arrives at the station. The rest of the people assigned to the truck or even the rest of the department, respond in their personal vehicles. Once on scene, everyone has the need to park as close to the incident as possible, usually oparking on both sides of the sttreet, double parking, blocking driveways and even parking on lawns. We join the people from the ambulance service (usually volunteer) who feel the same way. Add to that the PD, the tow trucks and you have many people. Too many people. I have seen volunteer depts respond 2 pumpers, 2 ambualnces,1 rescue and 80-100 people. I have seen it so bad that there is hardly room for the vast amount of onlookers.
My village has the same rule. PD and Vol Ambulance and Rescue respond. FD stands by and if needed are responded. A panel of chiefs from the various groups got together and decided that the response time was so minimal that a standby at the station was the most appopriate action. No more complaining from residents, no more traffic jams.
All bets are off if there is any indication of entrapment or smoke. If either of those 2 are in the initial report, FD is sent with others. Rescue requires pumper on scene for any extrication. Did not mean to write a novel, but here are my 2 cents.

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Dan Martelle

[Medic019]

My department lies in a rural area of NW pennsylvania and we our dispatched by the county 911 center which utilizes the EMD system for dispatching. On MVA's with unknown or confirmed entrapment the 1st alarm sends 1 engine company, 1 rescue company, and 1 ALS Task force. On MVA's without entrapment the dispatch just eliminate's the Rescue company's dispatch. However, I agree with SCCARESCUE, in a volunteer department you get way too many POV's on scene (that cause unnesseciated hazards). One way we work around this is everyone RESPONDS to the station. If the apparatus is already in enroute we simply ask the OIC if any more manpower or equipment is neccessitated on scene. If the reply is YES, then we respond the number of ppl requested in a POV (instead of everyone driving separately to the scene). Also, maybe the Departments' OIC and Chief of Police should sit down and discuss the problem to find out why they wait. They might bring to light some Operational issue that they see that may need reviewed. Hope I could help you out. Remember we are all out there working with the same goal "Public Safety". Thanks, Tad Acker

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[DFurseth]

In response to the post about Police not calling for rescue until arrival. I am both a full time police officer and Assist. Fire Chief (Vol.). For the most part in our area, if the call somes in for unknown injuries, rescue is paged. However, the dozens upon dozens of simple fender benders at intersections does not warrant paging rescue automaticaly, unless other info is recieved. With mostly volunteer departments in our area, paging out for EVERY call of a MVA would probably result in several things: 1.) Less members showing up time and time again for disreguard calls, 2.) More potential for a rescue involved crash while responding 10-33 to a non-emergency call., and finally 3.) employers getting a little ticked about having volunteers running out the door every 2 hours.

I still think we are much, much, better off with 911 and now with everyone carrying a cell phone for quick responses to emergencies. 10 years ago, if there was a bad grinder out in the boonies, the first passerby would have to find the nearest phone to call for help (through an operator most likely), now your talking a Golden Hour and a half.

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[Jesse Montgomery]

Our Fire Department runs one ambulance and our extrication pumper. Additional ambulances and pumpers are responded as needed.

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[BC White]

I just love the net, it gives all of us the chance to see the positives and negatives of how our counterparts around the country are deilvering service.
My department provides fire, rescue, and EMS (als & bls) services, so we do not experience any problems with the police. We deal with town, county, and state police officers, and have a good working relationship with all of them.
We are a combination department that has more career firefighters than volunteers. Volunteer members do not respond to the scene, but rather to the station.
Seven years ago the volunteer members did respond to the scene, and we did have a few spot problems followed by solutions.
1. Too many people on the scene. When the first due units arrived and there was enough manpower on the scene, the IC would have the dispatcher hit the pager tones and announce that enough help was on the scene (also giving the location of the incident). This told all members in route to not continue to the scene, and go to the station to stand-by for another possible call. This limited the amount of people on the scene, and provided coverage for the rest of the district.
2. Staging of members vehicles. Each area would be different, from an interstate to an old county road. Our SOG used to be that all vehicles would stage on the same side of the street as the incident, and no less than 500' in either direction. If the incident had special considerations, the IC would have the dispatcher hit the pager tones and announce the staging location for members vehicles.

3. Working with the police. The key to our success was through training. Invite the police to an extrication (and or fire)training. Explain to them what you do and why you do it. Explain what each truck is and what it does. Then give them the same chance. They too have certain things they need to get done at an accident. We have found this to be successful.

Our responce is determined by good call screening at the communications center (run by the county police). Fender bender with police on the scene and slight injuries gets the closest ambulance for what we call a "check-out".
An accident with injuries and fluids on the road get an Engine, ambulance, and Rescue (heavy rescue). This is called a "PI" (personal injury accident)
An accident with entrapment gets 2 Engines, 1 ambulance, 1 Rescue, and a Battalion Chief.
(our Rescue and one of our 3 Engines is ALS, we also have a hospital non-transporting medic at one of our stations).
This is a "Serious PI".
If the dispatcher recieves a report of a head-on or inverted vehicle with no information of injuries, a "Serious PI" is dispatched.

If you have an entrapment, a charged line should be pulled for safety. An engine also offers ladders, saws, extra lighting, hand tools, and manpower.
If you work with choppers, an Engine company may assist with the LZ.

As others have posted, meeting with these other agencies and pointing out what resources you can offer them may be a good step in the right direction.
I would strongly suggest that you reinforce your plan with cross training. After all, we are all there for the same reason.....the patiens(s).

[Sparkill Fire dept]

Where we are a growing trend is happening. Depts are getting 15 passenger vans or similar to transport manpower to scenes.
Now to a extrication call - the pumper/rescue responds with extra geared up men in the van and a chiefs vehicle. The extra engine stands by at the fire house or off scene. (we dont compromise traffic control either) 3 vehicles on the scene @ 12 plus fireman a chief or two seems to make a better well run operation without any compromise. Since you dont need 16 firemen standing around the car when 4 guys work. The use of the vans work well for other things too. The call from hell of course all stops are pulled out. The chief arrives, the rescue-pumper arrives the guys start to work, the extra guys arrive, minimal intrusion by the FD. We quickly get in do the job and pick up no confusion no extra cars or vehicles just a professionally done job with out fanfare (if you will)
My 2 cents

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Sparkill FD - JRM31333@aol.com

[Allen Siorek]

I would think this depends on the area you live in. Our department responds to all accidents with one ALS unit (usually an Engine, but one station has a 2-man (paramedics) Rescue truck) with the county dispatching ambulances. If there is even the hint of entrapment (rollover, persons not getting out of the vehicle...) than a full extrication response of one engine, an aerial (contains extrication equipment), the aforementioned Rescue truck, and a District Chief. Of course, our city has 7 stations in it and we can respond to anywhere within the city limits in 5 minutes.

I was heading home a few days ago on the turnpike when I came across a 3 vehicle accident involving a trooper. 10 total patients, two were infants (though the trooper denied injuries). Initial response was from the county - 3 ambulances and one engine. 2 additional engines had to be called in for manpower - access to this stretch of the highway was from three different jurisdictions and it took over 20 minutes before the first unit arrived on scene. I am in no way knocking the departments involved, but this would be an example that even though no extrication was needed, this is the kind of area where 'overkill' would be better straight from the get-go.

[EML089]

In my dept. our policy is if it comes in as a P.I. we respond. better to be at the seen within 3-4 minutes than wait for EMS to call for you and be there in 10-15 minutes. If your not needed you can be turned back. Remember its time that saves lives so the quicker we're there the better.

[Perry2085]

In our dept. we respond with 2 squads and 1 engine for our initial response. With our first in unit the OIC gets out and surveys the scene and relays infor to incoming units. We respond to all MVA's with damage as they are relayed to us by our central dispatch. This is common in North Eastern Ohio to have the Fire/Rescue response on all reported MVA's. If the police call back and say no injuries then only the squad responds for releases. Hope this helps.

Dan Ulrich
ulrich@perryfire.org

[natemarshall]

Our department has a 10 mile stretch of interstate 70 west of denver in the foothills.

We respond with a heavy rescue, an engine, and an ambulance, our people go to the station to ride trucks and only officers goto
the scene. This cuts down on POV's. We aslo do have some staging areas when more equipment is enroute. We find this works very well.

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Shadow

[chiefnfd]

I have looked with interest at the replies in this area, as when our province wide 911, came into being they said they would not do a tiered response. We are now in the process of making arrangements with the ambulance service to make it so we resppond to any accident with injuries. Not only for the reason of extrication but for E M first response, the guys on the ambulance can always use our assistance. In all cases our engine and rescue respond. We are a small volunteer department, which has a busy main highway in our coverage area.