Why do you like Figure 8 knots?

[billy]

What do you feel are the advantages of the Figure 8 family of knots? Why?

[Rescue2a]

Figure 8 knots are primarily "stopper" knots. They are used to secure your life line for rapelling such as the figure 8 reweave around an object. Figure 8's are some of the most practical and useful knots for performing rescue work and are very easy to work with and identify when tied correctly.

Hope this has been helpful...

[e33]

The figure "8" knot, not to be confused with the figure "8" plate, is a very good knot. It is easy to tie, in almost all of its configurations, it is easy to identify, it backs itself up..therefore not requiring a need for safeties and if dresed down well is very efficient and strong.

[Rescue2a]

I need to make a major correction to the above post... ALWAYS TIE A SAFETY KNOT REGARDLESS OF WHAT TYPE OF KNOT YOUR TYING.


[This message has been edited by Rescue2a (edited September 16, 1999).]

[resqcapt]

I have to agree with 2a, unless the knot your using is an in-line knot, always tie a safety.

Just my humble opinion.

Stay safe,
Steve

[e33]

Sorry guys, you are not so right. That is an old school thinking....that a knot will always fall apart unless backed up. A bowline may..it is just the way it is tied...a figure eight will not...unless you tied it wrong, in that case it isnt a figure eight. Do not correct me because you do not agree...i am well educated in things i speak about and do not offer false advice and opinions. Please do share your opinions, but do not offer corrections when not needed. Thank you

[This message has been edited by e33 (edited September 17, 1999).]

[Rescue2a]

e33,
Not to argue with you but, last December I completed a course of study to become certified as an Rescue Technician through the Maryland Fire & Rescue Institute(MFRI)in conjunction with the University of Maryland and the instructor was VERY SPECIFIC to get across to the students to ALWAYS tie a safety knot regardless. I am also currently completing an FireFighter I program through the PA Fire Academy and they also teach to ALWAYS tie a safety on a figure 8.

In fact one of the criteria to pass the practical examination of the Rescue Technician program was to tie a overhand safety on all knots tied throughout the practical testing.

If you feel safe & confident not tying a safety on a figure 8 then thats you. But I personally feel more safe knowing that a safety knot is in place as a back-up.

I was not trying to step on your toes however, I am correct and have received the formal training and skill that enables me to provide the correct information for the safety of others.

P.S- This is from the NEW & SAFE SCHOOL OF RESCUE, it appears that you are still from the Old School. THANK YOU

[This message has been edited by Rescue2a (edited September 17, 1999).]

[Resc10]

Hey dudes, first, I would like to say that the use of the figure 8 knot is frequently used for the simplicity of it. It is easy to tie, and pretty much if you can tie a figure 8, you can tie the whole family.
Second; Allow me to throw my two cents into this debate about the safeties; I rappel about 2 times a month on average. I have been in the fire and rescue service for approx. 13 years, and have taken classes in tech. rescue all over the east coast. AllWAYS tie a safety. ALLWAYS. We (you) should have a back up for everything... Every discipline teaches you theat; suppresion, Haz-Mat, EMS and certainly and especially technical/tactical rescue. Please take this into consideration anytime and everytime you tie a knot... B safe, Steve.

[resqcapt]

Again, i must agree with the above posts. I recently returned from a Rope Rescue Technician I & II certification class. The instructors still advocate tying safeties in figure eight knots. If you feel safe not tying them, then by all means dont, but if i'm going off the edge you can bet the knots will be safetied.

JMHO.

Steve

[Aff]

Both the bowline and figure 8 knot are excellent choices, and either will work in a pinch. A big reason for changing the "approved" knot is because of synthetic lines. The radius' tied in a figure 8 are not as tight as in a bowline, preserving the inner fibers. The surface area of the knot area is also greater, a must for kermantaled line. e33 is technically correct on the use of an overhand safety knot for figure 8's. But as rope & knots instructor for FF1, I too advocate tying a safety knot at all times. The risks are to great not to.
Be Safe...
Mark

[AFFF]

Well here I go again. I don't know eveerything but the family of 8's is what I think is the best group of knots to use. My reasoning like I think said before you learn one you have learned almost all of them. These work in almost every situation that someone can give you.

As far as the safety knot debate I work with rescue2a and I do agree with him. I am not saying that e33 is not wrong because you do not have ty because for the most part it will stay but I DO NOT know any instructor that will tell you that.

A little light on me I am a Maryland Rescue Tech.,Pa. FF I & II, Pa. rope rescue I, and Confined Space rescue. I have been in the service for 13 years. Does this qualify? OUr Department we work for is in Pa. but we run 2 counties in Maryland and 2 in Pa.

Think and Act safly.

[raricciuti]

I agree with most of the above posts. I have 17 years in the service and have always been taught to tie a safety - when we are called to resolve an incident, it is because something has already failed or otherwise gone wrong. We should take every reasonable step to insure that we resolve the problem, and do not contribute to it by becoming a victim. If my backside is hanging 100 feet over the street on a rope, the knot will be backed up. I plan on being here tomorrow. Stay safe.

------------------
R.A. Ricciuti, Firefighter
Mt. Lebanon Fire Department

[Rescue2a]

e33,
Any comments??

[e33]

Should I have any comments..I have spoken to instructors who teach this skill and still stick to my guns..all of you that like to feel safe by tying safety knots...go for it..but next time you sit down and tie a figure eight on a bight...sit and study it..tell me how it could possibly fall apart...please! Remember..some knots still need safties..and i know that as well. Sorry guys..I still stand my ground..just how i have been taught..and it isnt wrong,,neither is your way. Be safe.

[Red_Pumper]

I agree with Aff. The Knot was conceived to mnimize the stresses of bending on the rope. It also has the 3 qualities that make a good knot. Easy to tie, Easy to untie, and easy to identify. The figure 8 knot has been tested by Smith Safty products in rope strength breaking tests by placing 2 figure 8's on a bight in a section of rope and placing the setup in a hydrolic ram. The knot holds and witstands in excess of 10000 lbs. No safeys were tied. I also advocate using safety knots. I am a certified state instructor in Rescue systems 1, Confined space operations, Trench rescue, Low angle rescue, and Swiftwater Rescue Technician 1&2.
The thing to remember is that safety is the first priority.

I would like to ask if anyone has been exposed to the family of 9 knots? they are reported to have the same charastics as the family of 8's but easyer to untie when loaded maximum weights. Construction just adds one extra twist in the the knot.. I have found them slightly more time consuming that the 8's and no real value as to the ease of untieing.

------------------
Training today prevents injuries tomorrow

[fyrescue]

To answer the original question, the figure 8 family of knots are used in rescue work because they are generally easy to tie, stay tied when even when you don't have a load on them, and tend to reduce the tensil strength of your rope the least compared to other types of knots. Remember every knot will reduce the strength of the rope.

To address the question of a backup knot, yes we use a backup on every figure 8 knot, as well as backups on water knots in webbing. Our choice of backup is "half of a double fisherman" knot for the figure 8's and an overhand knot for webbing. I have trained several times with the guys from NYPD ESU and the systems they use, or should I say don't use would frighten you. They don't use all the redundant backups we use. But they work with their systems, equipment, and same crews every day. I've been a member of our counties technical rescue team for many years. While we practice as a team regularly (monthly), we have an actual rescue incident maybe once a year. Even though we check and set all knots prior to use, I feel much better taking the extra few seconds to put the backups inplace.

Some one mentioned the bowline knot above. I agree it is a fantastic knot. We use it all the time on the fire ground. It is an easy knot to tie and un-tie with gloved hands, when hauling equipment to the roof. But the one downfall of this knot is it tends to un-tie itself when there is no load applied to it. However you can back this up to take care of that. Makes a quick rescue loop to haul someone out of a basement real quick.

But generally, we use the bowline for the fire ground and figure 8's for the rescue scene. Above all, know your knots, practice, practice, practice.

Be Safe.

Mike

[pyroknight]

I think you guys have failed to mention the mantra of the day: contextual training, aka dumbing down your employees. In the mindset of contextual training if you want someone to do something some times or most of the time, you train them to do it ALL the time like a monkey so they don't have to think about it. We all agree that it makes no real practical sense to back up an 8, but we train people to back up everything so they don't have to stop and think "do I back up THIS knot, or not?"
My department is taking this to the extreme in our SOGs with directives such as:

1) The PPV fan will be removed from the apparatus, started, and left at the front of the pumper running at idle on ALL structure fires.

2) Once they hire our new EMS LT, one of this person's first responsibilities will be to assign duties to each position on the first in apparatus (EMS calls get a 2-person engine/quint and a 2-person ambulance) for specific types of calls. For example, if you are driving the ambulance on a cardiac arrest, you will carry in the backboard and ensure that the stretcher is ready. The other person on the ambulance would establish a line and push meds. The engine paramedic would intubate, monitor the ecg, and defibrillate.

3) We have heard that they will next be "training" us exactly what we can and cannot carry in each pocket on our turnouts.

If you use your knots all the time and don't have to "think", forget the safety when ya tie an 8. If you wouldn't know a bend from a bight, don't even tie the 8 if someone's life is gonna hang on it. Get some help!