Lack of Innovation in Fire Apparatus

[LeoVincent]

I left the fire apparatus business quite a few years ago. When I did it was for a variety of reasons. The biggest one being, I have a bit of a conscience about playing fast and loose with people lives for the sake of getting propriatary specification items. But that is not the topic I am discussing.

I guess it really doesn't suprise me to see that very little has changed in apparatus since I left. The reason that doesn't suprise me is that very little had changed for 30 years before I started. Compare a 1960 model car to a 2000 model. Then do the same with a piece of fire apparatus. I am an old car buff (my daily driver is a '67 Porsche), but as much as I love the old ones, I have to admit the new ones are safer, more reliable and just ergonomically a lot better. The same cannot be said for fire apparatus. There have been minor improvements, but for the most part nothing new. You would think that in this area where saving lives is the prime concern, new innovations would be a must, but it isn't.

I have a few ideas why this is the case. One, Fire apparatus companies spend most of their time trying to figure ways to better work the municipal bidding system, not build a better product. Sure you will hear a lot of stories of corruption, bribes and the like, but brand loyalty in the fire service is often a matter of habit. Since this is not a consumer market, little is done to truly make the product better.

You might agree or disagree with me on this, and I hope to see some discussion on it. I would strongly suggest becoming an expert on Fire apparatus construction if you plan to be in the service. A knight is only as good as his horse. And where fire apparatus companies are concerned I have a quote of mine that has often been repeated, "Just because you have been doing it for 40 years, doesn't mean that you are now, or have ever, done it right"



------------------
Leo Vincent
Fire@westcoastvintage.com
Seeking Firewolf Industries Items!

[LHS']

//Lack of innovation?/ very little had changed//

Hmmm, I guess our rigs are pretty typical then. Our tower can support 12 people on the device plus 4 in the basket. Were they doing that 30 years ago or even 5 years ago?

Full size pumpers that can out turn a Chevy pick up.

I can sit in the cab and see what four different crews are doing inside the building and know within 12 seconds if any one of 2600 firefighters needs help. I can tell you which one by name is in need. I cn tell you by name each and every rig on scene. We can find the exact location of any member within a few inches anywhere on the fire ground. We have the ability to communicate with over 4500 departments in 3 states and invite hundreds of rigs in seconds.

Our fire trucks display a moving map display and actually tell us when to turn left or right so we get to the dispatched address the shortest way possible and configure the response taking into account where every rig in the county is located and allows us to know where we are on earth within a few centimeters. At the push of a button we can view the pre-plans of any building in the county, locate any and all water sources, view hazmat data or surf the web. We can chat on a cell phone and on one rig a satellite phone.

The traffic lights turn green when our fire truck approaches them and red the other three directions.

Our electrical systems are self healing and have driven over 2200 miles without an alternator. Made a 180 mile run without batteries or an alternator.
We can deploy a floodlight, preconnect line, air bags, tripod light, jaws, piercing nozzle, ram, air chisel, sawzall all in less than 15 seconds be operating away from the rig with the tool.

Our pump panel which happens to be in the cab measuring 24 by 18 inches and only has two gauges has just one switch that activates the pump, compressor, generator, foam, floodlights, jaws, and pre-sets the pump pressure. Does that sound like an old thing?

We were running down the highway with our aerial carry 2000 gallons of water, 200 gallons of foam, 1/2 mile of 5" hose, 3600 feet of attack line, 12 air packs, 10 guys, a 5000 gallon drop tank, 10 salvasge covers, 12 spare bottles, a full set of jaws, 170 feet of grtound ladders, 9 pike poles, 25 KW worth of preconnected flood lights, 40 feet of ard suction hose, air bags, 4 saws, and 250 cubic feet of cabinetry at a speed of 85 mph uphill with the A/C on, stereo playing and eating ice cream. That is an old thing?

Ever shuttle water in tanker shuttle with aerial ladders and maintain flows in excess of 250 gpm each in a 2 mile round trip shuttle?

Ever fill your water tank on your aerials or pumper with a bambi bucket from a helicopter?

Ever flow 3000 gpm through three monitors and a ladder pipe, with just 3 firefighers, using only one rig supplied from a fire hydrant 300 feet away and complete the entire evolution in just in 3 minutes?

Ever send and recieve e-mails from truck to truck, truk to person, or truck to station, or truck to home? Ever page individuals members from the cab of the truck? Ever give military or EMS helicpters differentially corrected GPS coordinates from the cab when they were 300 miles away?

Ever drive 630 miles on a tank of fuel in a 68,000 pound fire truck?

Can you operate your aerial with a wireless remote control from 400 feet away?

Can you see 1/2 mile away what your aerial crew is seeing? Can you see it in color or in thermal imaging or overlay both together? Do you record what you see?

Do you have water powered cutting systems that will cut through 12 inches of wood or concrete on the tip of the aerial? How about lasers to help you position the tip and determine if you can even make the reach in the first place?

Do you have to stop you fire truck to lay a supply line? We don't. DO you have to leave a firefighter at the hydrant to turn it on? We don't.

Can you tell from 1/4 mile away what your water tank level is? Whether the aerial or pump is engaged or if the parking brake is set?

Have you ever videoed all your responses and recorded them with in the cab VCRs to cover your tail and record what each rig sees on scene? Do you do the same with vehicle mounted thermal imagers?

In the cab of all of your apparatus: do you have 12 gallons of drinking water that is kept filled from your water tank or supply line via a reverse osmosis system, a refrigerator, a frezzer, a cook top and a microwave oven? How about 21 cubic feet of food storage? Do you have a pair of coffee makers that serve 4800 cups per hour? Can you watch movies in the cab on one of two color TV's? Do you have sleeping facilities for three?

Did you carry 200 feet of light weight se through hard suction hose back in the good old days that didn't need a rubber mallet to seal?

Could you insure a pump urge couldn't happn in the old days even when shutting off a 200 gpm master stream suddenly?

Did the trucks come from the factory fully outfitted, with water in the tanks and hose loaded in the bed? Did you drive cross country with them in sub zero weather and park them outside for 9 hours at -28 to see if they would resist the cold without damage? All you had to do is put them in service when they arrived?

In the good old days could you produce 45 kw of power with the flick of a switch and project 6500 watts 65 feet in the air and 18,000 watts at ground level?

I can change out any valve on my fire truck in less than 3 minutes and not use a wrench or need a mechanic.

Were all the fluids on your rigs unique in color so you could tell what was leaking without hunting down the leak?

We got a draft from a water source 250 feet from the rig 120 feet below the pump suction. Did they do that in the olden days?

We can't dump our aerial, it won't let us. We can't short jack it, it won't let us. We can't pinch a guys leg between the rungs, it won't let us. We can't over load it or extend it into an overload situation, it won't let us. It has required less than 4.5 hours of total aerial maintenance in 75,000 miles. Most of which over dirt or gravel roads.

Could you pump 1250 gpm from tank to pump? Did your tanks rust?

The engine and ladders all passed a 28 hour pump test.

We clean up after fires with a broom not a mop.

Ever drive 38 miles with a deck gun operating off tank water without refilling producing a 440 gpm stream?

We spray a house with 25 gallons of water and none of it runs off in 24 hours in 100 degree weather.

Ever drove around spraying water with your aerial up?

Could you produce four kinds of foam at one time with a range of flows from 5 to 4000 gpm and flow water at the same time with one rig? Could your supply the foam systems from 4 different concentrate tanks and a pair pf off board pickup tubes?

Can you reload all of your attack lines with just one firefighter? Were all your attack beds less than 28 inches off the ground?

Did you ever have everything preconnected and use as many as 9 reels on one rig?

Ever seen a 40 foot long fire truck make a 180 degree, 270 or a 360 degree turn in half it's length (20')?

Ever climb a 67 degree slope with 2500 gallons of water? Blow flames from your flame thrower or water or foam from your rig at 70 mph? Drive through a swamp, over a sand dune and over the highway with the same rig? Launch thousands of flares for hours at a time without stopping? Climb right over a 40 inch wall straight on? Ford 50 inches of water? Outrun an M1-A2 tank cross country with your fire truck? Have a 13,000 mile mean time between failure on your fire truck?

Ever teach the whole FD how to operate your entire fleet in less than 90 minutes and put them all in service?

Ever place a portable monitor, lay one mile of 5 inch hose to supply it, connect to the pump discharge and flow 900 gpm from draft with just one guy in just 4.5 minutes?

Ever get a draft in 11 seconds with one woman? That includes the time required to deploy the hose, strainer, and prime the pump?

Ever seen a 70,000 pound fire truck slam on the brakes on glare ice and accelerate without slipping?

Ever seen a fire engine drive through smoke and see where they were going? Ever look at a building from in the cab and tell what room the fire was in, if the vehicles in the drive way had been operated recently?

We're just a small volunteer outfit but we have or have done all this stuff.

It surprises me all of this is not innovative. I bet there is a heck of a lot more out there that wasn't going on a decade ago.

[S. Cook]

And...

Seated and belted riding positions - firefighters aren't scattered all over the road if the rig is in an accident.

Engines and transmissions shut down before they destroy themselves.

Pumps shut down before they destroy themselves.

Aerial failures are significantly less.

Brakes don't lock up.

Brake failure is almost a thing of the past.

200'+ towers.

Elevator towers (Asia)

Aerials that can lift a Crown Victoria.

Aerials that can be set on uneven ground.

Pumps that require virtually no attention once the water supply is established.

[LeoVincent]

As for the first respondant, I am impressed with your knowledge of modern gadgets, but I am dismayed with the fact that you missed my point completely. I drive past stations every day in a huge class 1 city, and I see 30 year old designs running calls all day long. I to use my earlier analogy I could say "Well, a Lamborghini Diablo can go 202 MPH and a Hummer can go through XYZ terrain......." but that does not mean that the technology is prevelant or even applies to the entire industry. If you are educated, you can stick a lot of advanced items on your antiquated design, but it is still an antiquated design.

As for the second respondant, the advances in European trucks vs the Stagnation in American ones was what I was refering to.



------------------
Leo Vincent
Fire@westcoastvintage.com
Seeking Firewolf Industries Items!

[LHS']

Ok Leo,

//I drive past stations every day in a huge class 1 city, and I see 30 year old designs running calls all day long.//

We are a small volunteer Class 1 town and we don't run 30 year old designs.

/// you can stick a lot of advanced items on your antiquated design, but it is still an antiquated design.//


So what would be a non-antiquated design?

Come on boy spit it out! What the frick are you talking about?

[ADSN/WFLD]

When it comes down to it firefighting hasn't changed much in the last 80+ years. Apparatus has grown larger and can carry more stuff, but where the rubber hits the road very little has changed. A first due engine at a fire pulls lines and puts the fire out, almost the same as they did in 1917. OK before you jump all over me, Yes we have airpacks and better gear, some people have thermal imaging cameras, and some people even have CAFS. (I wouldn't wait for CASF to become common place in the big cities, I'm mostly sure you and I will have died of old age before the big cities adopt it) Hose is lighter (does that mean we are weaker?) But in general an engine co. pulls hose off of a pumper we enter the building and put the wet stuff on the red stuff. Same as our brothers did 80+ years ago.

I understand what your talking about Leo and I don't have a solution. But as long as the higher ups can get a Florida vacation when its time to do an inspection, some manufacturers will continue to turn out crap.

I can't in good faith place all the blame on any FD's administration. Why are so many of us resistant to change. I haven't seen many people jumping at the E-One Daytona, why "cuz it looks strange". same to a lesser extent with the Pierce Quantum. I can't tell you how many mechanics tell me that the Quantum's fold down stairs will never work.

And this will not change soon. When an engine costs 250,000 + a town can't risk purchasing a piece of junk.

If you have a solution, then fix it! Don't just brag about how much stuff you have on your rig. Because the bottom line is we both get fires and they go out in both our municipalities.

Stay Safe

[S. Cook]

"As for the second respondant, the advances in European trucks vs the Stagnation in American ones was what I was refering to."

So were you speaking in code or what? No where do you mention this - you just flat state there have been little or no advancements since the '60s.

So where are we stagnant? Give examples.

I hear that crap all the time "Europe is better than us in this or that area." BS if the way they do it in Europe is so much better, you could bet we'd be doing it that way. Our regulatory agencies would see to it. In fact, a friend of mine has been to Europe to teach them how WE do it. Now I'm not in the big giant loop, but I don't hear about Euro's comin' over hear to show us how its done.

Don't confuse different with better.

Just wondering - Did you get driven out of the apparatus business by one of the big boys or what? In all honesty, from this and your other posts it sounds like you have a hell of a chip on your shoulder.

And ADSN/WFLD - I just got back from one of those 3 day trips to Florida. While it was nice and we were treated exceptionally well, believe me it was no vacation.

[This message has been edited by S. Cook (edited September 09, 2000).]

[CollegeBuff]

LHS, I gotta ask..... what possesed you to drive an ladder truck around spraying water? What possesed you to take on uphill at 85 mph? What possesed you to slam ont he brakes and then accelerate on ice? Why do you need to be sending emails or watching tv in your trucks? Why do you needs to have helicopter refill capability? Why do you need to remotly operate your ladders? Is your department afraid of hights? I mean, I don't intend to offend you or anyone, I;m just tryin to understand why you need al of this. How many times do you really need to see out of a color/thermal camera mounted on the ladder? I will readily admit, a lot of that stuff is great, and some of it should even be standard equipment. But how many times per year do you need a laser-guided cutting tool mounted on a ladder operated from 400 feet away? And who paid for these BattleFire Gallactica's that leave the station 400 times a year? I'm not knockin your department, I think it might just be overkill is all.

[LeoVincent]

Well, to answer a few of the questions posed, I was one of the youngest VP's of Marketing ever in the Fire Apparatus Biz. I worked for both large and small companies. I really don't have a chip on my shoulder, but try if you will to think about the way it feels when you talk to a civilian who has no concept of what a firefighter really does. Well, that is what it was like to see fire departments buying apparatus after working in the business for a while. I was a firefighter when I started, but I had to give it up due to time constraints.

When I went to Intershutz der Rote Hahn in Germany I saw fire apparatus that was exceptional. Balanced pressure foam systems that were exceptional and so advanced over what the US was using at the time and yet so simple. I saw trucks with multiple rescue / support modjules that could be completely re-outfitted in under 2 minutes while the first out truck was in route. I saw rock steady bronto lifts in of 175 feet and more. I saw Schwing aerials that had fully articulated 4 section booms that could reach 50 feet under an overpass it was sitting on top of.

I was very impressed with the rear mount pumpers. They changed the weight distribution to almost optimum while still giving the visibility options of a midmount control panel (which really screws the weight balance).

If you look at the product lines Rosenbauer produces, you will see a lot of these advances. Unfortunately, I saw some VERY poor attempts by American companies to copy these designs. They were hampered by the how do I set up the spec so that no one else can meet it, issue, and made embarassing mistakes.

And I saw a lot of closed minded fire departments who insisted they were the best in the world and if there was anything better they would already have it, cause they were 18 feet tall and bulletproof and they believed everything E-one or Pierce or KME told them and if they said it, it was the gospel.

That is where I am coming from on this issue. I hope that clears it up a bit.



------------------
Leo Vincent
Fire@westcoastvintage.com
Seeking Firewolf Industries Items!

[Charlie Hoffman]

Nature of business attachment
Nature of your business: To manufacture and sell to distributors in the fire industry the
STRIKE FORCEFIREFIGHTER TRACER LINE
Type of products or services:
The firefighter tracer line is a revolutionary device in the next generation of search and rescue equipment. Tracer Line is a multi-functional, self-contained, personal tether line made of the newest, safest, and strongest materials. The unit facilitates safe entry and exit from a search environment, doing away with the old methods and problems. Tracer Line is a lightweight, compact reel that adheres to a rescuer's air pack harness or belt and can disconnect easily in the event of entanglement or problems. Tracer Line is the only self-retracting personal tether line on the market.
The unit contains one hundred feet of self-retracting stainless steel line which is attached to a doorjamb mechanism and takes the place of the wooden wedges that were used to hold entry doors open. Our injection molded housings and doorjamb mechanisms are heat resistant, fire resistant, and will not conduct electricity, thus making it the best and safest material for Firefighters. The door anchor mechanism has several functions. The device is made to easily and one handedly attach to any doorjamb, keeping the door open for smoke ventilation, preventing the door from closing and locking behind as some commercial building doors will do. The unit is also equipped with a beacon light so that firefighters or rescue personnel can see that an area is already being searched and serves to find a firefighter that has fallen and is in need of help.
If a doorjamb is not available, the anchor mechanism is designed to allow tying off to a handle, pieces of furniture, railings, or another tracer line and with the introduction of new technologies such as the inferred and heat vision masks and devices, our tracer line is a natural fail-safe device to secure Firefighters in the event of technological failure. The tracer line was designed for room to room search in high-rise buildings, or can cover a two-story two thousand square foot house anchored at its front door. Other applications include use by scuba DART team divers, petroleum platform firefighters, crude oil tanker ships and firefighters on naval ships.
When your life is on the line, Tracer Line gets you out!
Geographic market area:
We have U.S. Patent (5042613 August 27, 1991) and plan to patent our product in other countries as soon as funds allow. The Firefighter Tracer Line will begin marketing in the United States and then to countries worldwide.
List key customers: There is hundreds of fire equipment distributors nationally, as per our business plan here are examples of just a few who wish to distribute The Firefighter Tracer Line
Interspiro – 45 Distributors
Grace Industries – 386 Distributors
Hansen Enterprises – 350 Distributors
Chief Safety Supply – 30 Distributors
Lee and Associates - 50 Distributors
Please refer to business plan for a complete list of distributors.

*PLEASE NOTE: Interspiro is the world’s largest manufacturer of Fire equipment, 40 yr. Europe and 20 yr. U.S., one of the products they manufacture and distribute is a firefighter respiration pack. They have informed us of their interest in purchasing and attaching the Firefighter Tracer Line to their air pack to make a complete life saving system to give them an industry edge against their competitors.
GOVERNMENT CONTRACTS:
To date we have been solicited by the US Navy Pacific and Atlantic Fleets. David Mierke
(Department Head of Training San Diego) and Chief Nowacki (Director of Safety and Survivability Norfolk Virginia) both awaiting tracer lines for evaluation aboard ships and also at naval bases. If accepted by the US Navy other Government Agencies will follow.
List major competitors: This is a completely unique device and there is nothing like it on the market to date. Strike Force Firefighter Tracer Line is the first and only personal tether line to reach the fire industry; thus it will, like fire, spread throughout the industry.

[S. Cook]

"I saw trucks with multiple rescue/support modjules that could be completely re-outfitted in under 2 minutes while the first out truck was in route."

This is an improvement over rigs we use today? You know, the ones that are multi-purpose having the full complement of firefighting, ladder company and rescue tools, etc. showing up on the first arriving unit?

Why waste time "reoutfitting" a rig before leaving the station when a properly designed rig will carry it all?

We have a 105' aerial that 2 people can set up, put a crew to the roof or do a rescue, grab two ports off a hydrant, put 4 master streams in service, while 2 more of the crew start an extrication on the rubberneckers that slammed into each other while trying to see what was on fire. All this in about 4 minutes.

If a department wants a rig that'll do this, all they need to do is spec it.

"I saw rock steady bronto lifts in of 175 feet and more."

One of the big builders you bash sells these in the US. Beltsville MD, Knoxville TN, DFW Airport just to name a few already have them in service.

"I saw Schwing aerials that had fully articulated 4 section booms that could reach 50 feet under an overpass it was sitting on top of."

Yeah, we got those here too. Some will flow over 5,000gpm from the aerial device.

"I was very impressed with the rear mount pumpers."

Yeah, we got these too. But personally I prefer the mid-ship pump with the walkway - gets the operator out of the street.

"I saw some VERY poor attempts by American companies to copy these designs."

I don't suppose you'll give examples would you?

[This message has been edited by S. Cook (edited September 10, 2000).]

[LHS']

//what possesed you to drive an ladder truck around spraying water?

Structure protection when hundreds of homes are threatened in the interface.

//What possesed you to take on uphill at 85 mph?

we respond up to 167 miles to some parts of our first due area, we have a large county roughly 5000 square miles.

/// What possesed you to slam ont he brakes and then accelerate on ice?

our temperatues range from 50- to 125 degrees, tanker shuttle operations, snow, and traffic often require on ice performance for hours at a time

// Why do you need to be sending emails or watching tv in your trucks?

ever spend weeks at a time away from home in your fire truck on mutual aid hundred of miles from home?

//Why do you needs to have helicopter refill capability?

Sometimes the nearest fill point is 70 miles away. Choppers are faster than fire trucks, sometimes.

//Why do you need to remotly operate your ladders?

So you aren't on the rig when you hit a power line, so you can get back and see what you are really doing

///I;m just tryin to understand why you need al of this.

I think the L A Riots proved you don't need a fire department the comunity won't burn down even with hundreds setting fires, however, we choose to have a full tool box to deal with anything.

///How many times do you really need to see out of a color/thermal camera mounted on the ladder?

everytime we send a crew to the roof or raise the aerial command has a god's eye view of the entire fire scene.

//But how many times per year do you need a laser-guided cutting tool mounted on a ladder operated from 400 feet away?

when you need it you need it, how often do you use air bags?

/// And who paid for these BattleFire Gallactica's that leave the station 400 times a year?

the public and in return for the fleet we return the taxpayers investment in fire protection every 28 days with lower insurance rates.

//I'm not knockin your department, I think it might just be overkill is all.

Well, lets look at this weeks news. How many wildland fires are burning? How many homes were lost? How many people were in the tour bus over 100 miles beyond the range of any air ambulance? How many tankers burnt out on the highway? How many extrications went bad? It is far easier to say good enough.

The cost of doing things half way versus all the way isn't that great. Our budget is $276,000 a year, just how much could you save us a year? How much do you return to the taxpayers a year? Could you cover this area on that budget? Do you commonly send 5 rigs at a time out of town? Can you shuttle 1100 gpm 15 miles from the closest water point? How do you get water 120 feet below the pumper? Ever been on a fire the size of Deleware? Why is it we read all over this forum daytime staffing sucks? We average 56 per fire and you? They don't give the Class 1 ratings away, what do you have?

[LHS']

///Balanced pressure foam systems that were exceptional and so advanced over what the US was using at the time and yet so simple.

Old news today

///I saw rock steady bronto lifts in of 175 feet and more.

Old news 290 footers are on the market today, But, the one 178 footer in Texas doesn't work nor do their little brothers in Vancover, small point but the truth.

//I saw Schwing aerials that had fully articulated 4 section booms that could reach 50 feet under an overpass it was sitting on top of.

In use in 11 departments today. Must not be a real gopopd idea or we'd see more wouldn't we?

///If you look at the product lines Rosenbauer produces,

You mean like the overweight unit in Texas, or all the doors they just replaced in Texas on an entire fleet?

///you will see a lot of these advances. Unfortunately, I saw some VERY poor attempts by American companies to copy these designs.

Maybe some are not ready for prime time. Over weight...bad form, the doors on an entire fleet were replaced by american made products. The silly deck guns replaced by an akron, the swing out crap in the compartments were all rebuilt on the demo on just 3 years. None of the electric valves work today, but heck, they'll be getting rid of the 3 year old rig in just 2 months. That's progress?

///They were hampered by the how do I set up the spec so that no one else can meet it, issue, and made embarassing mistakes.

That should have been part of their business plan it is the reality of the american fire service not some fairy tail

///That is where I am coming from on this issue. I hope that clears it up a bit.

Oh. The aerial you mentioned as a good thing sure can't compete head to head with the products made by the folks you just slammed.

The 194 Simon Fire Wolf for example, 1000 gpm pump? Come on, hamstringed forever with a toy pump, didn't save a cent not buying a 1500 gpm. Cross lays 8.5 feet in the air, that is a good idea? A package unit A/C than can't possibly carry the load on the raised roof cab. One maker yo slammed standard A/C unit has three times the output as that rigs. 100 amp siren attached to what size alternator? Chose a chassis manufuacturer that went out of business shortly there after. One set of 12 volt spot lights for nighttime illumination. I guess it doesn't get dark in FL. Overall the rigs is a plain jane, everyone builds one sttyle rig. Nothing inovative that wasn't done by someone else then or today. Except possibly the highly confused pump panel. Even KME saw nothing in the line to continue to copy.

The other rig, pushes the margins of being overweight, same old same old layout that everyone else builds. If you own a fork lift you can get the hard suction off and in 3 to 4 minutes you could be drafting. How does that compare to 11 seconds? I thought you were talking about innovation? Ground exhaust, anti citizen on thestreet corner weapon, insures the rig can't ford water. 12 volt scene lights no floods. I'm sorrry other than angle of approach and departure issues what are the good ideas on this rig? Must be the boodter reels.

The worst thing about the rigs is the departments are stuck with out of production apparatus. The element of trust is long gone. Just another reason to look out for up starts.

Take a look at what are buying now if you'd like to see some real innovation.

[LHS']

//I saw rock steady 175' lifts

Hmmm, define rock steady.

Let's compare

Measure Mine Yours
Wind speed 40 mph 15
tip load 1350 lbs 500
Distributed 6000 lbs 0
Gpm flow 3000 gpm 350
Stability factor 3-1 1.5 to 1

Rock steady? I don't think so, extree special duty, YEP!

[Capt. Zada]

Careful Leo, it looks like Larry is going to have a stroke on this one!

[LeoVincent]

Please Please Please, think out arguements before making them. When someone tells you that companies are keeping you from seeing more of the better products and you respond by saying " Well they must not be very good or we'd see more of them".

The examples of European trucks you see here have been hamstrung by meeting incomprehensible specifications written by their competition. I also never said that Firewolf was a good example. Our wanting to purchase items from their defunct company has to do with the collection of one of the owners here at West Coast Vintage.

Firewolf took great european designs and handed them over to an inept engineer who butchered them according to all accounts. This guy had misrepresented his credentials and took credit for someone else's work to get the job. The trucks they ended up turning out were hampered by this yo-yo and then even more by the archaic specfications they were forced to meet.

I am not saying that there are not a few advanced pieces of equipment here and there. I am saying that many of the advances enjoyed through out the world have been held away from US fire departments.

Rear mount pumpers offer the best and safest layout bar none. The issues of operator safety in regards to traffic were brought out by Fire apparatus companies who had tried repeatedly to design these trucks and could not overcome the problems of drive shaft vibration due to poor engineering. I was there, I saw it, heard it, shook my head and walked away. Fire Departments must lead the charge for better equipment. As long as you take the position "It's gotta be the best cause it's what I got" you will continue to play the fool to the folks pulling the strings.



------------------
Leo Vincent
Fire@westcoastvintage.com
Seeking Firewolf Industries Items!

[LHS']

I find it interesting reading your reference to a certain company across the pond and what wonderful products they make only to read in a trade magazine today that they are in resevership for 30% of their operation.

Doesn't build confidence.

[mongofire_99]

Is this guy for real?

Following this and the E-one Issues thread he says "think out arguements before making them."

Then he doesn't?

The examples of European trucks you see here have been hamstrung by meeting incomprehensible specifications written by their competition.

I am saying that many of the advances enjoyed through out the world have been held away from US fire departments.

You were asked for examples 2 days ago, will you ever provide them?

Rear mount pumpers offer the best and safest layout bar none.

Is this a fact or your opinion? If it is a fact, please cite your references so we'll have something to go with.

...Fire apparatus companies who had tried repeatedly to design these trucks and could not overcome the problems of drive shaft vibration due to poor engineering. I was there, I saw it, heard it, shook my head and walked away.

When and where?

When I "think out" your arguement on this position, you are stating that there is not one competent engineer in the US apparatus industry that can design a rear pump apparatus.

Do you really believe that?

Do you honestly think that if fire departments on this side of the pond wanted rear pump rigs they would spec them and someone would build them? Doesn't Pheonix have them?

I was there when the manufacturer told the apparatus committee for the department I was with at the time that they don't know what they're asking for. The committee insisted it was what we wanted so we got it. Then they said "this isn't what we had in mind," but it met our spec to the letter.

In your opinion whose fault would that be, the manufacturer or the buyer?

Geez, look at the time, I'm gonna be late for work...

Hey LHS' what's reservership?

[LHS']

//Hey LHS' what's reservership?

Opps Recievership. It means the bank is liquidating the companies assets because they couldn't pay their bills.

[ADSN/WFLD]

"the public and in return for the fleet we return the taxpayers investment in fire protection every 28 days with lower insurance rates."

ISO class 1 is basically the same rate as class 3. What can a family who owns a single family home in your dist do with the extra savings, probably purchase an extra box of Kraft Mac and Cheese and a can of tuna.

"We are a small volunteer Class 1 town and we don't run 30 year old designs."

I've also heard that your vehicles can't leave the state because they are so overweight.

"//Why do you need to remotly operate your ladders?

So you aren't on the rig when you hit a power line, so you can get back and see what you are really doing"

I think your drivers should go back to school and learn how to operate their apparatus. If someone can't keep the ladder out of the powerlines they shouldn't be driving/operating that rig.


I hope your still reading, it doesn't feel to good when someone starts to pick appart everything you say. Lets be adults and think about the topic.

We have all seen salesmen who make their products look like the greatest thing on earth. We also have all seen the biding process. you know that manufacturers and salesmen will manipulate everything they can to win a bid. We have just experienced this at one of the departments I work for. Each and every salesman told us that certain items were unnecessary on our units and we should allow their exceptions.

S. Cook how many things did Enema One try to slip past you on your unit? If you didn't find anything wrong with your rig you didn't look close enough. The last 4 rigs we purchased had several things wrong with them and it was only because of our hard nosed mechanic that thoes things got fixed.

Try not to get so defensive. this post was started (I presume) to stimulate our minds and get us thinking. Take a good look at ourselves how many of us realy are experts in our field. It seems obvious to me that we all could use some more experience and knowledge of our jobs. If you doubt that just look at the number of deaths every year, then look at the number of fires we get. Every year we get less fires but our death rates aren't dropping.

Stay Safe and learn everything you can.

[ladderman]

I think this guy LeoVincent sells or works for a eurapean fire truck mfg.

[ADSN/WFLD]

You May be right

[LeoVincent]

I have not been in the business in almost 10 years now.



------------------
Leo Vincent
Fire@westcoastvintage.com
Seeking Firewolf Industries Items!

[S. Cook]

"S. Cook how many things did Enema One try to slip past you on your unit?"

Just to clarify, we were just there for the prebuild and to the best of my knowledge, none.

We made some changes to make our rigs better, swapping a few things here and there (e.g. different pump to get the trucks shorter allowed us to get Class A foam). None were suggested (outright or subliminally) by the rep or the company, all were by us. Afterwards we made sure to clarify all the little details.

If they get anything by us in delivery, it's not their fault its ours. We can accept or decline the rigs just like every other department that buys one.

"The last 4 rigs we purchased had several things wrong with them and it was only because of our hard nosed mechanic that thoes things got fixed."

I can be realistic and understand that every new rig is going to have some squawks. Hell I used to fix brand new helicopters that just rolled of the line (some had major problems but most were minor), new cars have problems too. But if your rigs had "several problems," why did your department even take delivery? Why didn't your department wait util they were fixed?

"Each and every salesman told us that certain items were unnecessary on our units and we should allow their exceptions."

Did you guys hold your ground or did you cave to the salesman? How about an example or two of what they said was unecessary?

If any company is ripping cities and counties off on a regular basis, how can they still be in business, much less the biggest boys in the business?

They would have to be only selling to idiots that are too stupid to know they're getting the shaft or are willing to take it; wouldn't you agree?

[STATION2]

Leo, you preach of safety and then go against it in one breath. How is standing at the rear of an Engine Co. on a freeway for a car fire safe? We go thru all the trouble of parking to protect the scene (You know the firefighters, police, EMS and civilians) and put front trash lines on our rigs and then you go and get prehistoric on us by putting the E/O back in the street to get hit. What happens when they get rear ended? Remember your not there in the street for a distracted driver to run into and pin you between their car and the rig. Hows that for your safety issue. Anaheim likes the idea and there are benefits, but don't jump up on the safety issue with that example. The wonderful developments you like from "over the pond" aren't widely accepted here maybe because of NFPA. The minute you bring up NFPA and make them meet it and still perform they go away as you quietly drift back to the Rosenbaur hospitality suite. I believe that things have changed. What about cabs and chassis. Back then you could get an open cab or open jumpseat rig all day long. How about Class A or CAFS, floodlighting, better warning lights, improved technology in terms of TIC's, lightweight hose, etc. We have come to value our people more now, like you preach but obviously don't believe. LHS and Scott have covered everything else more than enough. I'll just add one more thing....... "What Larry and Scott said." Ladderman, He may not work for one currently, but he probably owns a considerable amount of stock in one. Be safe.

Larry

[This message has been edited by STATION2 (edited September 12, 2000).]

[ADSN/WFLD]

S. Cook, we did catch the mistakes during the various inspections prior to delivery.

There are plenty of towns who don't catch items prior to delivery. It shouldn't be an Easter egg hunt for problems. The problems that were caught include misplacing inspection doors, grease fittings, and electrical runs. Items that big are being misplaced for the convenience of the builder, or just plain incompetence.

As for the sales people trying to change things, most items were minor, but one item was a inline foam system. we specified a high gpm system (sorry I don't remember the spacifics) designed to use a vindicator heavy attack line. And the bid came back with the standard 95 GPM line. It was a real sticking point. If we wouldn't have had experience with the process we probably would have ended up with the lower flow foam system.

Manufacturers will do the absolute minimum that they have to. A friend of mine told me a story about a relativly large town in Illinois that was evaluating various nozzles. During the testing they couldn't generate enough pressure. They found the relief valve set too low for the spacific lay. It was the departments impression that the relief valve was pre set at the factory.

As scary as that sounds, the blame has to be with their training department AND the manufacturer. You shouldn't have to spec extra owners manuals or an instructional video, or for that mater an instructor to inservice members of the department.

A large company (like E-One, Pierce, Seagrave, pick one) will cut corners whenever they can. Take for example E-One, look at the construction of the compartments. A Pierce's compartments are solid on 5 sides Top, bottom, back, and both sides. Now look at E-One the compartments are open on the top. Just a piece of decorative diamond plate to cover it. Why do they do it, Because its less expensive to build that way. They are also just spot welded. While other manufacturers have a solid weld. It's just E-One cutting corners to save a buck.

The goal of an apparatus builder should be to build the best most durable unit they can. Not to build as many as they can as fast as they can. It's our safety, be a smart buyer.

[This message has been edited by ADSN/WFLD (edited September 12, 2000).]

[LHS']

///ISO class 1 is basically the same rate as class 3. ///

Yeah 26% discount is pretty much the same thing.

///What can a family who owns a single family home in your dist do with the extra savings, probably purchase an extra box of Kraft Mac and Cheese and a can of tuna. ///

Oh, well, the truth is this the average home in my community saves $510 every single year. the average commercial property per 100,000 is saving $800 year every year, The contents is saving 1100 per 100K. the average renter saves, $493, the average farmer saves $13,650 and Yes we eat real good Kraft.

Here are some sources around the US tat show how the rates are calculated.
US National Bench Mark

ISO™ INSURANCE Per
CLASS DISCOUNT $1000

1
2 26.2% $2.18
3 13.8% $2.97
4 4.5% $3.43
5 17.8% $3.58
6 12.8% $4.37
7 13.6% $4.99
8 9.6% $5.77
9 11.5% $6.66
10 $7.50

*add $.90 for small mercantile

Dwelling table A from the Texas Department of Insurance Bulletin B-0028-00, 1 year base fire rate per $1,000.00 of coverage
Class Brick BrkVnr Asbs/Stucco Frame
1 0.36 0.43 0.94 1.41
2 0.36 0.43 0.94 1.41
3 0.49 0.58 1.30 1.91
4 0.57 0.68 1.50 2.22
5 0.59 0.71 1.56 2.32
6 0.71 0.86 1.91 2.81
7 0.82 0.98 2.19 3.22
8 0.96 1.13 2.51 3.73
9 1.07 1.22 2.75 4.27
10 1.21 1.37 3.09 4.81


According to the SCOPES Manual a $274,000 unsprinkled masonry wood frame 3 story restaurant would pay:

Class
10 $2504
9 $2331
8 $2033
7 $1997
6 $1964
5 $1915
4 $1857
3 $1830
2 $1808
1 $1783

//I've also heard that your vehicles can't leave the state because they are so overweight. ///

Oh really, does the source have a name? The state of nevada motor carrier division follows the same rules as CA, UT, and AZ. Who knows about ID or OR. But we've been inall those states except AZ. We have 15% of the axle capacity remaining on each rig. If what you are sayingis true then every tower ladder or single axle quint or pumper with 3000 gallons of water is overweight in all those states. WRONG.

///I think your drivers should go back to school and learn how to operate their apparatus. If someone can't keep the ladder out of the powerlines they shouldn't be driving/operating that rig.//

Ok, how do you see through smoke and steam? Are you telling me you can position a ladder without seeig the end better at the bed than at the tip or off to the side? Does it snow, ever get fog in your area? Is it ever dark? YOu can direct a stream of water better from the bed than the tip or off to the side? Ever heard of the need to abandon the apparatus and still control streams? Do you know what corker is? How do you look over a bulk storage tank? Ever squirt water or combustable metals? Do you know anything about the distanc from the tip of the ladder to a power source or the rate of eletricity travel through a fire stream? Do you really think the operator and those around the rig will stay off the rig? Good grief man. Yeah I'll just jump vlear I don't think so. Why do the two largest builders of aerials make wireles remotes. The largest builder of industrial towers as well?

///I hope your still reading, it doesn't feel to good when someone starts to pick appart everything you say. //

Sure it does with silly responses like yours!

///The last 4 rigs we purchased had several things wrong with them and it was only because of our hard nosed mechanic that thoes things got fixed.///

Dammit boy, you got all the way home without finding them and you're bragging about it? It is easier to fix there than at home. Either you had a waranty or you didn't, tey either honor it or you call the city attorney.

[S. Cook]

"Manufacturers will do the absolute minimum that they have to."

Specs are minimums and that's what there going to do. Spec it and hold 'em to it.

"You shouldn't have to spec extra owners manuals or an instructional video, or for that mater an instructor to inservice members of the department."

But you do. It's like your EMS rule - if you didn't write it down, you didn't do it. If you didn't spec it, chances are you ain't gonna get it. It's the nature of the beast, occuring in every business that requires specifications. Maybe they 'should' do what we think would be the right thing but if we don't spec it, we didn't ask for it. They can't read our mind.

"It was the departments impression that the relief valve was pre set at the factory."

How long has this department been in business? Was this their first apparatus? How about their first one with a relief valve? A large city turns these folks loose with $300,000 worth of equipment? Training, training, training.

"The goal of an apparatus builder should be to build the best most durable unit they can."

I agree. The less durable the rig, the less sales their gonna get, the more their reputation runs down the drain and the more money their investors lose. But the big 2 (E-1 and Pierce) are still the busiest. If they're ripping folks off, I don't understand how, unless they're only dealing with complete idiots.

I wasn't an E-One fan by any means prior to this purchase, heard too many bad things, frames cracking, electrical problems, you name it.

When they jumped into the bid for our apparatus, I chased almost every lead on the E-One stories here in Texas. Called FD mechanics, emails, an independant repair shop, everyone I could think of. All had pretty much the same stories - no more problems with E-1 than any other builder, and "our frames didn't crack, it was something all together different" (see E-One issues forum). Ultimately it all boiled down to some fireman ain't riding the brand of rig he likes and he's just gonna bitch about it.

I'm not saying your experience is the same, you may have bigger problems than these, but that is what it was here.

I do the purchasing for our FD and I know some sales people that are crooked as a dog's leg. I don't do business with them and they know why. When their boss calls and asks why, I let them know it, and let them know the other 9 departments and employer I help in purchasing won't be buying from them either (one company can't believe we won't deal with them because they didn't send the suspenders they said they would but that's another story).

If we get ripped off on these rigs, guess which company won't get the next 1, 10, 15 or 20. And I'll put the word out too.

[391HD]

Saving the taxpayer's money with lower insurance rates? That probably sounds good in theory, but prove it. It was probably a good selling point, but have ALL your taxpayers actually realized a savings for investing in the big boys, big toys?
How many insurance companies actually follow the ISO grading schedule when underwriting insurance? Insurance companies are in the business of making a profit, not losing money. If premiums go down because of a lower ISO rate, the companies will certainly adjust the premium rates paid to recover any losses.
Remember, number one priority of the fire service should be the protection of life and limb, second, the protection of property. To be of REAL service to your taxpayers, provide EMS as well. There will be many more calls for EMS than for fire service, and you'll be truly helping the community.

The best thing for this countries fire apparatus design, would be to mandate the standards, such as military vehicles, and produce common models for municipalities to purchase. Such a program would eliminate the partial bidding process and extravagant showpieces, thereby truly saving the taxpayers money. The insurance companies would probably be happy as well.

All in all, the fire apparatus is only as good as the people who operate it.

[S. Cook]

"Saving the taxpayer's money with lower insurance rates? That probably sounds good in theory, but prove it."

Typical call at the station...

"Fire department"

"Hi this is so and so and I live at 123 Jeapordy Lane. I have a question about my insurance."

"Sure what can we help you with?"

"My insurance just went up $105 becuase the underwriter said the agent made a mistake when he quoted my fire rate at a class 5. They say it's actually a class 7."

"No ma'am, actually you're in a class 9 area and your rate increase should be around $300."

"Oh?"

"But we're trying to get you and the other 18,000 homes with class 9s to class 5." (For those that need the math, that's $540,000 a year for homeowners alone.)

Still don't believe me click this link: http://www.tdi.state.tx.us/consumer/rghome.html#top and select any county from the drop down list box (mine is Hood).

See those A, B, C and D's? Those are the rates for the following from insurance companies. This is information they provided the Texas Department of Insurance

A is a brick class 4
B is a wood class 4
C is a brick class 9
D is a wood class 9

Looking at Hood, Allstate Indemnity is there not a $571 difference between a class 4 wood and class 9 wood?

How about Allstate Texas Lloyds, is that a $633 difference between a class 4 brick and a class 9? How about that $1,226 difference between class 4 wood and class 9?

If you run out the rest, you'll see there is a average of $320 difference between class 4 and class 9.

Need more proof?

[This message has been edited by S. Cook (edited September 13, 2000).]

[S. Cook]

I forgot my point from the earlier post.

So what's my point?

We have the power. We can change any part of the apparatus industry we want, we just have to band together.

If somebody is building junk, get all the departments that are ****ed about it together and get things changed or put them out of business.

If you want a Euro rig that has swap boxes on it, then by all means get it. Somebody will build it to your specifications.

If you want full welds around the compartments then spec it.

If a department feels they're being ripped off, hold someone accountable - the manufacturer, the buyer. It is somebody's fault, it just don't happen.

If you want your rig built a certain way, spec it that way. If the manufacturer balks, trust me someone else will build it.

Leo wants us to believe the europeans have it all over us and have apparatus that is so much better, yet he refuses to give examples.

Like I said earlier, don't confuse different with better.

You get what you settle for.

[LeoVincent]

Well I appreciate the gentleman who made my point for me about the rear mounted apparatus. The part about being pinned in by a rear ender was the pretty much accepted party line that we decided would be the reason for not recomending these trucks.

Of course, this is on a mythical fire scene where there is no traffic control and no other vehicle parked behind the pumper. These speeding cars that fly through this fire scene of course would always miss the poor operator of the side mounted panel, or the guy trying to hook a line to the opposite side (depending on which sid was facing the speedway). And there is the guy on the midship walkway who would would be magically anchored in such accidents.

I am sorry to be flip, but I started this conversation to try to make people think. I left the business because it was giving me ulcers. I knew what firefighters faced (I had been one up to the rank of captian) and I was sickened by the crap the companies were doing. No firefighter was ever helped by his truck haveing cast aluminum cab corners, but E-one has justified being 10k or more over priced on just such a spec item. You think people won't buy from companies who rip people off. Ferrara was still in business last time I looked and they sued one fire department for not accepting their low bid even though it did not meet some of the specs. (The department was Morgan City, LA. and even though they eventually won the suit, their truck delivery was delayed 2 years, There was no penalty to Ferrara).

What I was talking about was not a bad company building rattle trap apparatus. I am talking about the huge amounts of money wasted playing the "Spec Game". If fire departments would bid out trucks based on performance and safety specs, you would get much better apparatus at a lower price. But as soon as that salesman becomes involved in the process, bam, there is that one little word, or phrase that creeps in and changes the whole game. Often companies won't even bid because they see tell tale phrasing that indicates the spec originated from Pierce or E-one, or who ever. The think the chief is in bed with the spec writer and it is a waste of time. The chief many times has no idea and just wanted some help with the technical aspects of construction so he didn't get a bad truck.

I don't own stock in any fire apparatus company. I don't even have anything to do with the biz anymore. I work for a gentleman who runs a vintage automobile company. I wanted to offer some views from the inside so that perhaps people would think a bit more. I ran into the same sort of resistance 10 years ago, and as long as everyone is all knowing, learning can't happen.

------------------
Leo Vincent
Fire@westcoastvintage.com
Seeking Firewolf Industries Items!

[LHS']

///"It was the departments impression that the relief valve was pre set at the factory."//

Sounds like they've never read nfpa 1901 delivery tests have they?

Why would anyone buy a fire truck and not inspect it at the factory? Was your new house perfect? Absolutely foolish nt to review yor rig, you don't have codes in town and not use an inspector to verify the licensed contractor did it right do you?

///Saving the taxpayer's money with lower insurance rates? That probably sounds good in theory, but prove it.//

Just like S Cooks state my/our rates are regulated by the state as they are in 47 other states. You bet I can prove it, they are published by the state.

///but have ALL your taxpayers actually realized a savings for investing in the big boys, big toys?//

Gee you mean the $53 dollars invested per taxpayer, divided over the lease term of less than $6 per person a year???? Do you think dropping froma Class 9/10 to a Class 1 saved at least $6 a year? More like $835.

We have letters from the school district alone that exceeds each year total pay out for the fleet.

The survey we ran of our firefightrs showed all of them had substantial reimbursements. I had the least $61 a year, but I have a fully sprinkled home.

///How many insurance companies actually follow the ISO grading schedule when underwriting insurance?///

Here just like where Scook is from 100% it is the law. Actually in Texas two companies are not regulated but will be in January.

Yes there is a maximum and a minimum they can charge based upon the rating. Every single carrier is listed for the public to see as are commnity ratings.

/// Insurance companies are in the business of making a profit, not losing money. If premiums go down because of a lower ISO rate, the companies will certainly adjust the premium rates paid to recover any losses.///

Really? According to Don Sullivan, executive vice president of State Farm Fire and Casualty Company the nation’s largest insurance carrier(27% of the nations policies), “We believe that homeowners who support improvements in fire protection through their tax dollars should be rewarded with lower insurance rates.” "We offer a 62% reduction in premiums paid depending upon the level of fire protection offered by the community." "That is a difference of as much as $647 a year on a $120,000 home every year for 10 or 15 years!" “Any property found paying the wrong premium will be adjusted within 30 days."

Well call this guy and ask him State Farm along with three other companies All State, Farmers, and USAA write 80% of the nations homeowners policies. Source the Insurance Industry Information Center.

In Scotts state hundreds of communities hadtheir rates change overnight. Very well published. If the rating changes good or bad so does the premiums.

So yes, there is plenty of evidence.

///Remember, number one priority of the fire service should be the protection of life and limb, second, the protection of property. .///

So do you feel we are not offering quality fire protection for our community? Providing a real service isn't handing back 15 dollars for every dollar you take in on top of offering the highest level of fire protection possible? Through our understanding of insurance we handed back $186,000 in cash every single year to government. We made so much money on EMS the county took it back. Yep we only run 3 fulltime paramedic ambulances in a town of 7000

///The best thing for this countries fire apparatus design, would be to mandate the standards, such as military vehicles, and produce common models for municipalities to purchase. ///

Wow there is an idea. Two mechanics per single station fire station just like the military? Who do you know buys off th military contracts? Who has anything good to say about military apparatus? It worked so poorly now they buy direct from whoeverthey want instead of using the government system. P-8, p-12 great pumpers, yeah right, two of thelast gas rigs ever built. P-15's you could only drive once a week or if there was a crash. A whole slew of builders all curretly out of business. Yep that's who I'd buy from.

////Such a program would eliminate the partial bidding process and extravagant showpieces, thereby truly saving the
taxpayers money.///

Oppps you said saving money not offering the best fire protection possible, you're contradicting yourself. Cheap isn't better.

///If you want full welds around it

with a door onlly 1/3 as thick as the guy who welds four or five places. The choice is yours. one offers a 10 year 100% warranty the other is 10 years and pro-rated, if you have the body inspected every year at their place for 2500 to 4000 bucks, no inspection warranty ends in 12 months. Simple detail stuff, no biggie.

<<< but E-one has justified being 10k or more over priced on just such a spec item.>>

I guess it would depends on how you look at it. I know one city in the top 5 largest in the country sending back fire trucks and so are their neighbors. Why body cracking litterally in half. The 10K more rigs aren't going back the ones who don't need the extrusions are.

////You think people won't buy from companies who rip people off.

An excellent example of wrtting someone out of your specs
.///If fire departments would bid out trucks based on performance and safety specs, you would get much better apparatus at a lower price. But as soon as that salesman becomes involved in the process,

Our last three rigs had a spec 4 pages long that didn't list a single component by name or manufacturer. We got 7 feet of bigs for 21 outfits, never had a salesman, never let them call on us either. The rigs turned

[8 Engine]

What we need is affordable innovation. You can pretty much get whatever you want anywhere, just write the spec and someone will come through. But it comes at a cost. You might drive by our hall and notice that our rig is plane jane and not terribly innovative at all. Not because we don't want innovation, but because we can't afford it.

We have a staff of under 20 volunteer members, operate on an annual budget in the neighborhood of $4,000, and can barely keep our firefighters dressed in OSHA certified gear. Our newest rig, a 1994 Freightliner/Darley 2-seater can't hold a draft despite looks by Darley and some mechanics. Then there's the '76 Ford pumper that dies enroute to the scene about 20% of the time. How about the converted tanker with a stick shift from hell, top speed 20MPH uphill? The converted beer truck for everything else? Reading about the LHS uber truck makes us wish we could even argue about this kind of stuff.

Super-duper trucks are nice, but until even a lowly vollie outfit like ours can afford some of it, you're still going to lose firefighters over the issue of savings and affordability.

No I don't have an answer for that, I wish I did. You still see non-innovative trucks, because that's all a lot of departments can afford. We deal with it anyway.

[This message has been edited by 8 Engine (edited September 13, 2000).]

[S. Cook]

OK this is off topic, but to address 391HD's "theory" again. Call recieved at the station not 5 hours ago...

"Fire department"

"Yes this is so and so with You Need It Insurance and I have some questions."

"Sure what can I do for you"

"House at 12345 Stonerock Drive, who is the department that responds and what apparatus?"

So we go through all that and I ask...

"OK, I helped you now it's your turn"

"OK what do you need?"

"That's a class 10 area, what's the rate?"

"Well we just right fire policy, but it's a little over $2500.00 a year on the $350,000 insured value."

"OK, what if it was a class 5?"

"It would be less than $1,500 a year (over $1,000 to be saved)."

[NCFiremedic]

///The best thing for this countries fire apparatus design, would be to mandate the standards, such as military vehicles///

I work on a military base and volunteer out in town. Let me just say this. My little volunteer town has better equipment the the military installation. Don't get me wrong, The Pierces we have were good trucks when purchased, but things run astray when military mechanics who are more interested in fixing garbage trucks then doing PM's on FD vehicles. Also military specs have nothing to do with what local agencies need. Only a braod spectrum. I personally would rather have a say in what I'm getting and leave out some bean counter that has no clue what me or my brothers need.

P.S.
Whenever I post a message the thread ussually stops. Please try to keep this one going. It's interesting to see informative replies.

[P.P.]

There is large savings going from an ISO 9 to say an ISO 5. But what would the savings for a single family home to go from an ISO 3 to a ISO 1, vs the cost for the department to reach that ISO 1 level.

It is my understanding that the cost to go from a 3 to a 1 is not cost effective for a mostly residental area.

Stay Safe!

P.P.

[Buck]

Here I am sitting at my computer reading this, I just got back from one of those so called vacations in Ocala, Fla. I'm glad I don't have to do anything tomorrow because I'm tired. Pretty exhausting crawling all over and thru 6 tankers and 2 pumpers.

At first, I had listened to other people about that won't work, It's TOO big, that salseman is lying to you, They will say anything to sell you a truck, ETC,ETC.

Well I got proved wrong!! I ate my words. The truck will do what the salseman said. As for finding problems with the truck, Yes we found them and they were fixed. We even realized things we left out of our specs that were added after the fact.

Now did we find all the problems ourselves? NO! Thats where a inspector comes into play. You don't buy a house without one.

As for innovation, I can't think of anything on our trucks that has not already been tried and tested in the field. but let me tell you it is top line innovation we have in our trucks.

Just like S.Cook has said , If you want it, Spec it!!! Don't Assume they will build it just like you wanted it.


Thanks,
Buck

Boy that crow taste like crud!!!

[S. Cook]

Gawd did I screw my numbers up. Here's the recalculated totals.... (It's still worth it)

"It is my understanding that the cost to go from a 3 to a 1 is not cost effective for a mostly residental area."

Texas Dept. of Insurance numbers (via the post from LHS') show an average savings of .30 cents per $1,000 going from a 3 to a 2 or 1.

The average home insured value in my area of Texas is around $80,000.

So, 80 X $.30 = $24.

Now, there are about 18,000 homes in my area at present (and we're growing rapidly) so that would that be... 18,000 X $24 = $432,000. 1 and 1/2 times our present budget.

Over 10 years that equals = $4,320,000

And that's on top of the more than $1 million + a year we already save 2,000 of them that live in the city and doesn't count the break from class 5 to 4 and 4 to 3.

If that's not cost effective I don't know what is.

[This message has been edited by S. Cook (edited September 14, 2000).]

[This message has been edited by S. Cook (edited September 14, 2000).]

[This message has been edited by S. Cook (edited September 17, 2000).]

[LHS']

You're a real man BUCK!!!!!!! You had concerns, yall hired an inspector, and you sent crews to go back and inspect the product. So the big tankers turn ok I gather?????

Nice talking with you the other day, I believe we are kindred spirits.

[ADSN/WFLD]

LHS Can I buy insurance from you?

I just finished talking to an agent with Farmers Insurance, and he told me that their is NO savings on a single family home if your town has an ISO of 1. As a matter of fact you will pay the same if your town has a rating of 4 or a rating of 1.

Also I would consider moving, you said that the "average home in my community saves $510 every single year." Well full coverage on a home that is insured for $140,000 costs $322.00 per year. Does that mean that the insurance co will pay me $188.00 a year to cover my house?

As for your other comments, they aren't worth responding to. As usuall you missed the point and now are taking everything personal.

Stay Safe and buy smart

[S. Cook]

ADSN/WFLD, 1 - 3part question, 1 comment

1. What class is that house insured at now? What would the rate be if it was a class 10? How much is the difference?

2. If Farmers won't break at 4 to 3, somebody else will. Two options for the homeowner in this case: shop around or keep paying higher rates.

BTW it was a Farmers rep that called the station yesterday.

[ADSN/WFLD]

The town I live in is an ISO class 4, The agent stated that the rates wouldn't get any lower. To Farmers, and probably everyone else in this area (they all play by the same rule book) a lower ISO doesn't mean anything. I did do some shopping prior to getting Farmers and everyone is basically the same. ($20 oneway or the other doesn't make a difference to me).
What if I lived in a town with an ISO of 10? sure, my rates would be a lot higher, but that wasn't the original question.

When you look at ISO and the entire rating system, from a 5 to 4 or 3 to 2, or wh

[Thomas]

I think that the ability to "make money off the tax payers racket" is what is eating at some people.

Think about it...we pay taxes...and for what?

Schools
Police
Medical care
Fire protection
etc...

I know that evryone is entitled to make a profit but...when is the taxpayer supposed to feel safe...that they have gotten a "bang for their buck"?

If ISO or NFPA says this truck needs to meet this requirement, then why don't they?


Yes the rules change, typically for the better.

Yes each community has different needs.. this being true then why have a standard such as ISO/NFPA.

If the manufacturer's are not held to these, then really what good do they due to the taxpayer? We end up giving a false sense of security to the taxpayer because they trust us. Yet they do not realize that we have to send inspectors, consultants, etc to make sure the OEM is giving us what we pay for!

LHS,
have you ever purchased a new car and dropped the gas tank to make sure it is properly grounded?
If you have good for you, personally I assume that the car manufacturer has followed the NEC for my protection.

Have you ever heard of MMS?

You should think a minute that there are several organization's that are HELD to various standards!!! yet these organizations are still able to make a profit. Companies like Exxon, Texaco, Conoco can only conduct their refining business in a safe manner. The equipment they buy has to meet various codes/standards set up buy our government and our National Board of Insurance. If the equipment does not meet the standards, then the OEM is held liable and held accountable!

Here is another example...

The pharmacy companies. Their product has to meet the FDA approval before it is allowed access to the public. Why? DAH..to protect the taxpayer! This product is tested and held to certain standards. What happens if a drug does not meet these? I bet you can't get it!

Too all...
So, why not hold the fire apparatus manufacturer's to the standards in place? Why are we given the ability to purchase the inadequate protection for our community? Are home builders allowed to build a house without a roof?


Buck,
You seem happy. Great! I know you did not "catch" everything. What did you miss? I don't know, but if you felt like you had to go and inspect an item you spec'd, then why buy it from that vendor?

Just my views...


be safe and remember #1!!!!

[Buck]

///So, why not hold the fire apparatus manufacturer's to the standards in place? Why are we given the ability to purchase the inadequate protection for our community? Are home builders allowed to build a house without a roof?///

Thomas,

If you want a house built without a roof all you have to do is spec it that way.

///You seem happy. Great! I know you did not "catch" everything. What did you miss? I don't know, but if you felt like you had to go and inspect an item you spec'd, then why buy it from that vendor?///

Have you ever bought a house? Did you "CATCH" every thing wrong with it before you bought it? Hired an inspector, huh? Did he catch everything? Did you call a sales agent and tell them you want a house and what you wanted, color, layout, brick,sq. footage,ETC,ETC. And the arent said yes I got one just like you want. Did you say I'll take it sight unseen? How about a custom home?
Get a set of blue prints and all the specs done and tell the home builder to build it. Would you go check it out several times as they are building it? and if you did why would you buy from that vendor, you must not trust them?

LHS'

Yes I have to say the tankers blew me away. They performed better than I could believe.

S.Cook

I not trying to pick on you but your math is a little wrong. 18000X$24 =$432,000.

10 years = $4,320,000

///The best thing for this countries fire apparatus design, would be to mandate the standards, such as military vehicles, and produce common models for municipalities to purchase. Such a program would eliminate
the partial bidding process and extravagant showpieces, thereby truly saving the taxpayers money. ///

391HD,

While we are at it might as well get everybody the same uniforms and build all the stations the same and have just one great big book of SOP's and hell, lets just let the federal goverment run the fire dept. Also lets add EMS to it.

I can see it now ARMY, AIR FORCE, NAVY, MARINES, COAST GUARD, FIRE/RESCUE, EMS.

Might as well be a Communist counrty.
What a great idea?

Buck

[S. Cook]

"I not trying to pick on you but your math is a little wrong. 18000X$24 =$432,000.

10 years = $4,320,000"

Sure is, must have fat-fingered a key. It's still more than our annual county FD budget though (~$300K).


[This message has been edited by S. Cook (edited September 17, 2000).]

[LHS*]

/////
LHS Can I buy insurance from you? Also I would consider moving, you said that the "average home in my community saves $510 every single year." Well full coverage on a home that is insured for $140,000 costs $322.00 per year. ///

I know the chart I posted that your insurance man uses was too hard for you to understand, so I’ll do the math for you. $140,000 x factor for a Class 4 = $310.80. You said you pay $322. So your argent is ripping you off, I’m SORRY! If you were a Class 1 he’d owe you $113.40 a year or the value of the rating for yo is 1701.

Class 10 to a Class 4 savings is $362.20. Apparently, our homes cost more than yours.

You don’t need to buy from me silly, you’re already paying what the chart says you’ll pay ad saving what the charts say you’ll save…BUT I’m SORRY I WAS OFF BY 3 percent.

////Does that mean that the insurance co will pay me $188.00 a year to cover my house?//

Think about the question, look at the chart, they already are handing you money back.

//. ($20 oneway or the other doesn't make a difference to me)

Let’s do the math together.

$20 times 1000 homes times the insurance rating period equals 3 Million dollars

5000 homes 15 million dollars

10,000 homes 30 million dollars.

Why when you represent the fire service wouldn’t this matter to you?
.
Take your FD budget divide it by the number of homes, I bet the $20 is a large portion of your per house budget average. Nationwide it is 28%. Would you take a 28% increase in the FD budget?

///What if I lived in a town with an ISO of 10? sure, my rates would be a lot higher, but that wasn't the original question. ///

The origninal question and I quote: “What can a family who owns a single family home in your dist do with the extra savings, and . But what would the savings for a single family home to go from an ISO 3 to a ISO 1, vs the cost for the department to reach that ISO 1 level.“

See the charts again, That would be $161 a year. Factor in the population of the fire district and the rating period, that frees up a lousy 35 million dollars, hmm let’s see what could you buy? AND WHY WOULDN”T WE TRY FOR THE SAVINGS?

///It is my understanding that the cost to go from a 3 to a 1 is not cost effective for a mostly residental area.//

Yeah 35 million isn’t worth picking up at a cost of 1.6 million dollars. Course when you add the commercial, crop and renters savings in it is bare $100 million.


//Saving the taxpayer's money with lower insurance rates? That probably sounds good in theory, but prove it. //

Scott and I gave you plenty of proof which you verified with you’re own rates.

[Inferno]

I believe that the fire truck industry will only go as fast as the commercial truck industry. In almost all cases, I think that technology will not (and is not) being delveloped with the fire fighting solely in mind. I think that most technology will be suited to be applied to fire fighting. Sure there are increasing tip loads and better communications equipment, but that is just building on current technology to make it better. Do you think that infered imagery is new stuff? The military has used this for many, many years. And how about traction control systems on our apparatus? High-end car makers have been using this technology for quite a while too! So whenever something new comes out in the fire fighting service, just look at other industries and I bet that you will find it in another application that has nothing to do with fighting fire!

------------------
When In Doubt, Blitz It Out!

[ADSN/WFLD]

LHS I'm glad that in NV the insurance industry treats you so fair. I'm also happy that you could save your 200,000 residents some money.

You sound like your proud of your ISO 1, and you should be. Many departments with Full Time firefighters, responce times less than 5 minutes, good water supplies, professional dispach centers, and quality staffed equipment, aren't able to play the numbers game like you all do in northern NV.

I guess the rest of us will cower in the shadows and pray that we aren't called upon to do our job.

You had better watch out when the Millions of residents in our area find out how wonderful it is in your area, and how we have all been screwed by our insurance agents here. It is likely that we will all drop everything and move to Fallon.

Then perhaps you can show us all your tanker with the Squirt on top.

[This message has been edited by ADSN/WFLD (edited September 18, 2000).]

[LHS*]

// I'm glad that in NV the insurance industry treats you so fair. /

They don’t that is why we and every other state legislature has a department of insurance.

We have 30,000 nt 200,000 residents


//Many departments with Full Time firefighters, responce times less than 5 minutes, good water supplies, professional dispach centers, and quality staffed equipment, //

Bull! Hey they don’t have good water supplies, good dispatch and good staffing with a Class 4 or Class 5. They only scored 40 to 50% on the test, which means ½ on water, ½ of staffing, ½ of communications. This ISO thing can’t be too tough more than 1 volunteer department has scored a Class 1.

// aren't able to play the numbers game like you//

Yeah it’s a game, must be if you can’t get a good grade. Either you do or don’t have the needed water to fight the fires in your district. That is 35% of the grade. Either you do or don’t test your hydrants per the national standards and have compliant types. That 5% of the grade.

If your water system is better than your fire department you know you have a six shooter but the fd only has the ability to move 4 bullets you shouldn’t get credit for what you can’t do should you? That is 10% of the grade. Heck right there you’ve got a Class 5.

Either dispatch can answer the 911 calls, you know say hello in 30 seconds and never more than 60 seconds or it can’t. The standard is so easy that the dispatch can take as much time as she likes to collect the data but once it is all collected she must hit the tones within 1 minute. Either your phone book lists your phone numbers or it doesn’t. Your dispatch does or doesn’t have a back up generator and circuits or it doesn’t. You either have or don’t have a way to reach your people ie pagers per NFPA stds. You either do or don’t have enough phone lines to answer your call volume. There is another 10%. Gee there is a Class 4 and we’ve not even talked fire department.

Your fire department needs to match your fire problem, not someone elses, yours. The fire flows are based upon 90 years of fire analysis. Either your pumpers carry 75% of the NFPA equipment list and your ladder/service companies 50% or they don’t. Either you conduct pump and hose tests or you don’t. Shouldn’t you have a reasonable number of reserve apparatus just in case something is out of service? There is another 22%.

Shouldn’t your stations be within the clinical death limits of a human being? Shouldn’t you have the apparatus in each station to meet the needs of the district? 4% more.

Should we or shouldn’t we meet the staffing standards that say how many firefighters are needed per company to operate at 100% efficiency? Add 15 or more percent.

It is probably a good idea to have facilities to train, to train and prefire plan. Another 9%

Which part of the above is the GAME? We take this stuff seriously where I live. What part are you having so much trouble with?

Why are you scoring 60% and only 10% outside of your hydrant district? Which 40 to 90% is’t important to you?

Let me quote from the Fire Chiefs Handbook for you:

“...until something else comes along which allows a fire department to evaluate how good a job it is doing compared to like fire departments ...the ISO™ classification is the only means available...”

//I guess the rest of us will cower in the shadows and pray that we aren't called upon to do our job. //

That is certainly one approach. I’d rather stand on my own two feet.

//Then perhaps you can show us all your tanker with the Squirt on top.//

Sorry, we don’t have any squirts. Tours are available 24 hours a day, on the web page or even on scene.

Oh your crack about Nevada, I’ve helped departments in a number of states and their ISO works just like yours. They are all the same.

[ADSN/WFLD]

I am beginig to see the entire picture now. Based on your numbers in an earlier post,

"That would be $161 a year. Factor in the population of the fire district and the rating period, that frees up a lousy 35 million dollars,"

your district should have 217,391 residents.
(35 million divided by $161.00)

I also just finished looking at some of the Fallon/Churchill FD website, www.geocities.com/Baja/Trails/6658/index.html, (http://www.geocities.com/Baja/Trails/6658/index.html,) and it would appear that not all of your district has an ISO class one.

Larry, just how many square miles, and residents are covered under your ISO 1? I know I would like to know. What precentage of you district are you talking about?

And for your "truck" lets let the viewers of the forum decide. Is this a truck, or a tanker with a squirt on top?
www.geocities.com/Baja/Trails/6658/index.html (http://www.geocities.com/Baja/Trails/6658/index.html)

I guess it doesn't make muck of a difference what I think it is,you got the ISO people to believe it's a truck.

As for some of the other points you made, you provided us with a long list of items that wil get you to that class 1. So your telling us that Departments like, LA city, FDNY, Chicago, Boston, Philadelphia, Phoenix, all pale in comparison to the Fallon/Churchill Volunteer Fire Department? You must be because they don't have an ISO 1 and you do, well sort of.


As for my crack about Navada, if word gets out that your so much better than the above departments, you just might have a population explosion to deal with.

“...until something else comes along which allows a fire department to evaluate how good a job it is doing compared to like fire departments ...the ISO™ classification is the only means available...”

Well something better HAS come along, its called Fire Department Accreditation. Our department as well as many other in my area are looking into the cost VS benefit of this award. So far it would appear to be a much more indepth study of a departments effectiveness.

[This message has been edited by ADSN/WFLD (edited September 20, 2000).]

[LHS*]

//your district should have 217,391 residents.

nope, dollars divided by population times rating period.


//would appear that not all of your district has an ISO class one.

Nope

//just how many square miles, and residents are covered under your ISO 1?

Barely 98 square miles and 86% of the population.

//What precentage of you district are you talking about?

300 square miles and 11% is Class 3, the lowest ISO without a water system in the US.

31 square miles and 1% is Class 8

32 square miles is a Class 9 and 1%

And the balance 4539 square miles and 1% or 300 people have a class 10 scattered on ranches more than 10 miles from a fire station.

//And for your "truck" lets let the viewers of the forum decide. Is this a truck, or a tanker with a squirt on top?

A squirt (proper spelling Squrt) is made my Snorkle, ours is made by Pierce it is a Nova quintech boom made of steel with two flys not three and aluminum like the Snorkle device.

It is not a truck it is two trucks.

//you got the ISO people to believe it's a truck.

We didn’t make anyone believe it was a truck. ISO definition and NFPA’s is it is a quint and a tanker and an aerial. It met 100% of the ladder service requirements of the largest fire department in the US area wise.

///As for some of the other points you made, you provided us with a long list of items that wil get you to that class 1.

No that would get anyone to a Class 1.

LA city, ISO Class 2, used to be a Class 1 for over 50 years, they got rride of 100 engines and the staffing for them.

FDNY They are an ISO Class 4, sounds like lots of issues.

Chicago Class 2, stations staffing and apparatus.

Boston don’t have a clue.

Philadelphia Class 3, same grade as our rural area without hydrants, lots of issues, there are Class 1’ volunteers in PA.,

Phoenix Class 2,

//all pale in comparison to…

maybe in your mind.

We all take the same test, The above have FD, wateror communications issues, some more issues than others and our grades are public knowledge.

// you just might have a population explosion to deal with.

Nope, already have that with three Class 1 departments and two of the nations fastest growing cities.

///Well something better HAS come along, its called Fire Department Accreditation. Our department as well as many other in my area are looking into the cost VS benefit of this award.

Nice, you aren’t accredited. ISO won’t accept it, or lower rates but if you feel you’ll have a better department because you have a mission statement, an equality plan, and can all be with one with each other knock yourself out, but you know what? Water people, stations, trucks, training and notification will fight the fires, not feel good stuff..

///So far it would appear to be a much more indepth study of a departments effectiveness.

That really says a lot, where ISO is required every 30 months and accreditation is something you choose to do or not do. And only a handful of FD’s have accreditation. All 88,000 communities have an ISO grade.

Anything else?

[ricky]

WFLD/ADSN

You're not going to win a "numbers game" with Larry. Give it up. He should be a politician.

[ricky]

BTW Larry, Did you "move" again?

[grc063]

IS THIS ABOUT THE LACK OF APPARATUS INNOVATION OR AN ISO FORUM??? Larry, you should contact someone about doing a reference manual on ISO rating. That would free up this forum.