relief valve settings

[ffdoneng62]

hi i was wondering what everyone sets there relief valves at ? my dept. sets the relief valves @ 140-150 psi and is that the"norm" for settings

[capt3211]

We run approx. 120 psi due to using low pressure nozzles (125 gpm/75 psi) on preconnects than increase with bigger lines.

[WRENCH]

got to agree with the Capt. not knowing your manning or your sop"s , I would dare say that you do not have enough manning to handle that kind of pressure on an initnal attack line.Very hard to handle, unless your talking hi rises or really long stretches 120 sholuld be good and on short car fire lines 100 ft , 80 to 100 psi should be adequate. Purists will argue other wise but lets talk real world. And while your at it ,do you preset your relief valve? That should start a debate!

[FiRsqDvr45]

We run ours at 120 also but with the 200 and 250 foot preconnects we are getting only 80-90 gpm from them at those settings, which I think defeats the purpose of upgrading from 1.5 to 1.75 hose. As far as the question of whether we should preset the PR or not I can go either way. I would hope that the person running the pump would be able to set it appropriately for the task, if not why are they running the pump? A preset is a good base I guess to allow 1 or 2 people to stretch and start a flow but the pump operator and the crew need to comunicate quickly so the pressure can be set to get the flow needed for the fire. Sometimes I thin kit is just left there thru the whole fire limitiing the lines capabilities, kinda like when we have a "Christer" and no one remembers to break down the 1 inch tip to a bigger size on the deck gun or ladder pipe. Training and repetitive practice are key.

------------------
FF/EMT Jay Ellingson
Newington,NH FD
Be Safe!

[Bob Snyder]

We generally run hand lines at 125-135 psi and the relief valves are set at 135 psi...enough to allow the pump operator some room for adjustment, but not enough to knock anyone over if something goes wrong.

[LHS]

In the past we mounted a yellow light on the cab roof attached to the relief valve open light. The relief valve was preset at 200 psi to flow 245 gpm out of 150 feet of 1 3/4" Angus Chief hose with a fog tip. The engineer simply throttles up till the open light came on and then took another 1/2 turn of the throttle to keep the pressure up when someone finally started flowing water. The relief would simply recirculate water and maintain the pressure. The revolving light told everyone on the fire ground the rig was pumping the right pressure. We label the relief valve "pre-set, open 7 1/2 turns". That allows checking the relief valve setting in the station with the pump off. You simply turn the knob until it is closed then open 7 1/2 turns to properly set it to 200 psi in our case. It works with all makes of pumps, although the number of turns is different, I think Hale was 20 turns.

[Dalmation90]

Just an observation...I'm kinda amazed at the pressures the handlines are being pumped at!
I guess I'm just used to running 150psi unless someone says otherwise. And nowdays our primary attack truck is almost always pumping at 200psi -- yep, line is pretty stiff, but it makes good looking Class A foam at that pressure.
Implicit in that of course is the relief valves are set at 200psi initially.

[ffdoneng62]

Well this is what I was told that 140-150 psi
was NFPA standard or should I say recommended this I was told by one of the lieutenants on my dept.

[Dalmation90]

Ran the numbers again...
Pump at 150psi delivers:
135gpm through 150' of 1.75" with 100psi Nozzle pressure
95gpm through 200' of 1.5" with 100psi N.P.
(Gosh, corresponds with the flows the nozzles we keep on each put out!)

I guess I can see sub-150psi pressures if you run smoothbores or low-pressure fog nobs...but with standard 100psi nozzles?

[Romania]

I tend to pre-set my relief set at just over 150psi. We use automatic nozzles and it does work out to be 95gpm for our 200' 1-3/4" preconects. On our truck, If I need to flow foam, I can turn our relief valve 5 times and it will now be set at 200psi. If I turn it 4.5 times the other directions I am at the pressure I flow the car fire line at (100' 1-3/4").

------------------
Alan Romania, CEP
romania@uswest.net
IAFF Local 3449

My Opinions do not reflect the opnions of the IAFF or Local 3449.

[WRENCH]

presetting relief valves is all well an good but on the newer pumpers with electronic relief valves or pressure govs it is a mute point as you are ramping up from zero every time you pump. on the older hale reliefs, from a maintainance point of veiw it is not good to preset as it can cause a set in the springs. It is then necessary as you all know that working the relief in the full range is essential on regular basis to prevent sticking and the like. by not setting the valve you are working it each time. when I started we were taught to preset at 150 in case the spring broke and some guys were to dumb to remember. if the spring breaks at 150 or higher do you really want to be operating the pump any way with no control over the pressures to the lines? counting turns on hales is agood idea, a qualified operator should know his equiptment. by not presetting he would be adjusting to the situation at hand and not get into the habit of just charging the line and forgetting to set to a pressure that is really called for

[D. Anderson]

I was wondering the same thing as Dalmation90 the first time I read this post and wondered if I was missing something. We pump our preconnect at 175 PSI (250 feet 1-3/4 with automatic nozzle) and set the relief valve at 1/2 turn over that, not at a pre-set value. The backup line setup we use is 2-1/2 to a wye with 1-3/4 so it is pumped at a lower pressure because of the lower friction loss, and in most cases your relief valve setting is just left at the attack line pressure because it's higher most of the time.

I should add that like Wrench said we leave our relief valves set all the way closed and bring them down to the operating pressure used in each situation. If the lay is too long for our preconnect we go to the 2-1/2 deadlay and the pressure would be different.

Our new pumpers all have the "Fire Commander" governor on them but were also delivered with manual pressure relief valves, and there is some discussion as to why you should or shouldn't set the manual one when using the "Fire Commander". Any thoughts on that out there.

The new rigs also have intake relief valves that you can set in the field, what do you guys have yours set at?

[DD]

Intake relief set at 75 p.s.i., but we have to adjust it to about 120 p.s.i. for about 1/4 of our hydrants.

[Joseph Mowery]

We set the Piston Intake Relief valve at 80psi.

We pump at 130psi to 200' of 1 3/4in house using 75 psi nozzles. If we need more/less flow it is called back to the pump operator and the pressure is adjusted.

[oldrepeater]

Gotta agree with "Wrench" I feel it is a very bad idea to rely on "number of turns" in order to rely on pump relief settings.
Mechanically the spring which controls the relief piston, wears with each opening of the relief. It should be good maintenace practice to actually set up and test the relief through it's paces in order to ensure the setting placed on the spring is the final pressure setting you want.
In the interest of safety, starting up the pumper / engine and actually pulling a precon to check during practice or a maintenace period is far better than "guessing" where the pressure may or may not be during a holy sh*tter.



[This message has been edited by oldrepeater (edited March 24, 2000).]

[LHS']

So who has ever had the spring break? Who really uses the relief every call or sets it every call? Survey says? Our pumps have lifetime warrantees, includes 100% parts. and yours?

[EnjineCaptain]

Maybe your pumps have a lifetime warranty, but taking that truck out of service to repair something that operators misuse is unacceptable. The others are correct, unless you operate your relief valve regularly (i.e. no less than daily, and while actually flowing water), the spring in the pilot valve will develop a "memory" and not operate properly.

Properly operating the relief valve means that the pump operator understands how it functions and is able set it for the current operation. I understand that instructing your personnel to set by a certain number of turns is simple, but to me that means that the operator does not have a thorough knowledge of how the pump functions or how to trouble-shoot any problems that may occur. I would not feel safe.

We flow 200ft x 1 3/4" handlines of low friction Conquest hose with automatic nozzles at 150psi to give us 125gpm+.
A 2 1/2" or 3" with wye down to 1 3/4" lines, starts at 170psi depending on how much of 3" is down.
The relief valve would be set about 3/4 turn past the required pressure for a given operation. We do not preset the relief valve for the reasons I described.

------------------
I'm glad to hear from any of you.
EnjineCaptain

"This isn't what we do, it's who we are!"

[WRENCH]

LHS, I hope you are being facticous. Yes we did have a spring break once, fourtunatly it was not in the middle of a fire call but on a sunday check. I'll cnside yes most times you do not need to set it, but as enjine capt said it is uncalled for. how would you justify an engine breaking down and being sued for lack of maintainance, and it does happen.sounds like a case of lazy operators or very poorly trained ones.

[bfd1071]

Larry....I know you guys have monster rigs in your dept, but what you say does not make hydraulic sense to me. You state that you set you relief valve at 200, to flow 245 gpm out of 1.75 line, at 150 feet. Is this not a bit much? Why not decrease you Engine preasure with going to a larger line and keeping with the same discharge flow.
I'm not an Enginemen, but this makes a little more sense to me, how about the rest of you?

[This message has been edited by bfd1071 (edited March 28, 2000).]

[This message has been edited by bfd1071 (edited March 28, 2000).]

[This message has been edited by bfd1071 (edited March 28, 2000).]

[LHS']

... Is this not a bit much? Why not decrease you Engine preasure with going to a larger line and keeping with the same discharge flow.
..

Because it works well, drags well, why increase the drag weight or increase the number of firefighters to move the line through the building on a pump designed to pump 10 to 400 psi and run only 250 rpm higher, we or you won't wear the rig out, the hose doesn't burst. We are not afraid to throttle up.

If someone else wants to pull a 3 inch line the same length and pump 55 psi all the power to them just add a few more guys to the line.

Are you taking or is anyone taking their rigs out of service due to relief valve failure? Are you reporting it to NFPA?

Is there a reason why you wouldn't run your rig daily? This is an emergency business and certainly you check your rigs daily which exercises the spring.

So the guy who presets the pump and knows the number of turns can't possibly know how to operate the rig and problem solve?

Lots of FD's being sued for lack of maintenance? Who where why? SO your spring broke and you don't pre-set your relief valve. Did you buy that make of pump again? Why do you have to put the truck out of service? Like someone said you need to know the rig, 30 minutes in the station max and the spring is history and a new one would be installed.

------------------

Just one persons opinion, based upon seeing and doing for 25 years, do't get riled up, all fires go out everywhere even if the FD doesn't show up, if you don't agree with the answer just pretend you didn't read it, apply whatever you think works.

[bfd1071]

Larry.... do not get on the offensive. People are just telling you they do not agree with your "71/2 turn" theory. If it works for you, great, but it should be checked and done correctly everyday.


..Because it works well, drags well, why increase the drag weight or increase the number of firefighters to move the line through the building on a pump designed to pump 10 to 400 psi and run only 250 rpm higher, we or you won't wear the rig out, the hose doesn't burst. We are not afraid to throttle up.

how much less will the 1/34 be at 245 gpm in weight with the same amount of water in the 21/2? It is still 250 gallons correct. We drag our hoses dry, when we need the water we charge it. What is your friction loss in this 1.75 hose? It must be out of sight, really making your pump work harder then need be, and so with the guys on the line. As for the hose bursting....tell that the the poor guy in Ga.

------------------
** The opionions are mine and mine alone, they are not that of my dept or the local**

[LHS']

...how much less will the 1/34 be at 245 gpm in weight with the same amount of water in the 21/2?...

The answer is more than twice the weight.

...It is still 250 gallons correct. ...

No

..We drag our hoses dry, when we need the water we charge it...

That is nice but the weight in both cases is double the 1 3/4".

...What is your friction loss in this 1.75 hose?...

If friction loss puts out fire then use a 5 inch handline at 250 gpm.

Our loss is 66 psi per 100 feet.


...It must be out of sight...,

Define out of sight. Your FD needs to pump a ladder pipe at 250 psi to flow 1000 gpm 50 feet from the siamese.

...really making your pump work harder then need be...

Gee, 250 rpm more, that will kill it?

>>> and so with the guys on the line. As for the hose bursting....tell that the the poor guy in Ga...

Like I said our hose does not burst. Do you have some inside info on Ga? What hose were they using? Did they follow NFPA 1962? Was the hose tied off, did they use the non-pump panel discharges? Did they use a gate valve with a pin hole? Did they bleed the air? Did they keep the work area clear? Did they use a hose test machine or a pumper? Did they exceed 300 feet?


------------------

Just one persons opinion, based upon seeing and doing for 25 years, do't get riled up, all fires go out everywhere even if the FD doesn't show up, if you don't agree with the answer just pretend you didn't read it, apply whatever you think works.

[bfd1071]

Larry....your doing it again, your getting all upset about someone that questions you. If you do not like some questioning you, do not post online. I do not agree with your theory on the 1.75 line. I do not agree with alot of what you say and your tactics. From the 2 academies i have been too, both have told me that flow above 150 gpm in the 1.75 hose is unsafe and foolish. I seem to remeber that above this flow, you get Turbulant water flow which increases friction loss, makes the pump work harder. I know your magazine showed all these test on the 1.75 hose and how you put one guy on the line OUTSIDE a building and played with the water. By the way...we do not run at 250 on our ladder pipes. Infact..we try not to go above 150 ep.

Try not to get all offensive when people question you. Remeber what happened to you on the AOL boards.

------------------
** The opionions are mine and mine alone, they are not that of my dept or the local**

[Wills]

We set our a 150. That seem to do the job and I adjust when needed.



------------------
Take Care,
Wills

[Dalmatian90]

>Like I said our hose does not burst.

Gee, feeling a little God like with omnipotent powers again? Thy shall not burst.
Gosh, I'd like to say nothing goes unexpected on the fireground, too...not sure many would agree with you in fact or opinion.

Kinda funny, maybe you should follow you're own signature paragraph before posting.

[S. Cook]

We set them at 150# - that's enough for 200+gpm on a 150' stretch of 1.75" ponn conquest and about the same for a 200' stretch of 2" (is that unsafe and foolish?).

I know this forum is about relief valves and I'm sorry to get off topic, but...

First off, there is still too much NOT known about the chief in GA to speculate on all the details, could have been any number of reasons.

And secondly - whoever teaches flowing more than 150gpm on a 1.75" hose is unsafe and foolish is (to be blunt) full of it or not aware of what the 1.75" will safely do.

If this were anywhere near true:

- The mfg. of 1.75" nozzles would have big signs on them that say not to do it. As it is, Elkhart tells me they'll flow 300 off and 1.75" no problem and I tested a whole bunch of other 1.75" nozzles 2 weeks ago with the mfg rep standing right beside me saying they'll do 150, 175, 200, 250.... Lowest flow nozzle tested was 150gpm.

- The hose mfg. would tell you don't do it.

- The smooth bore fans would get smaller nozzles, after all the 15/16" tip at 50psi on their 1.75" hose flows 185gpm and it's unsafe and foolish.

- NFPA and OSHA would mandate that all handline flows are to be no greater than 150gpm.

Think about it... the liability on the part of the nozzle and hose mfg would be so great they would be stupid not to warn you.

And it's a whole lot easier to move a 1.75" line flowing 250 than the 2.5" line.

- If it wasn't, why make smaller lines?

- Consider the volume IN the hose versus the volume moving THRU the hose.

Stay Safe

Scott

[LHS']

...we try not to go above 150 ep.

Ok how do you get 1000 gpm 100 feet up? This ought to be good.

[LHS']

Our expert seems to indicate FDNY is foolish and dangerous. They've been flowing 180 gpm for 30 years.

[bfd1071]

Larry...i never claimed to be an expert, but you have. So socalled expert you tell me how we flow our ladder pipes. You seem to know more about my dept then i do. I guess the AOL boards are right...no one can hold a conversation with you larry. You to thick headed and stuburn to talk with.

As for scott.. Are you talking about lines....or nozzles? The way your post was worded it sounded like nozzles.

------------------
** The opionions are mine and mine alone, they are not that of my dept or the local**

[LHS']

Gee, BFD

You state all the dangers of flowing more than 150 gpm when the whole world is doing it daily. You say 200 psi is too high and I ask then how do you supply a ladder pipe and you run and hide. I figure you don't know is the reason why you run off.

Nozzle pressure is 80 or 100 psi. 100 feet of elevation is 43 psi. So that gives you 7 to 27 psi for friction loss. So please tell us how you pump 150 psi to a ladder pipe to flow 1000 gpm. The facts are you don't because it is not possible.

[LHS']

Uh yeah,

It must be really dangerous to pre-set a relief valve and of course you need to reset it every single day and check it.

Every ladder and tower in the US, every intake valve, every pump suction that meets NFPA has a pre-set fully adustable relief valve. Why aren't they breaking? Why aren't you setting them everyday? Why don't you set them everytime you use them? Could it be it is a non-issue? The above doesn't total much over 100,000 springs.

Please tell.

[bfd1071]

(Laughing)

Larry...see you do not know it all, we do not flow 1000 gpm out out ladder pipes. try again. And do us a favor.....get your meds checked. See people...this is what happens when you do not agree with king larry. he stops his prozac and the world suffers. By the way, I'm not hidding. I know my dept, and what we flow, but since you are so god like you tell me what we flow since you know all.

------------------
** The opionions are mine and mine alone, they are not that of my dept or the local**

[WRENCH]

LHS , got to agree with BFD. Are you a mechanic , have you ever been to a Hale or any pump maintainance classes? Hale does not recommend presetting there valves. no there are not thousands of breaking springs but the brass retainer that pulls on the spring does tend to strip the threads if you over tighten constantly. thats why its brass so it sacrifices in stead of the shaft. In your diatribe with Bfd your mixing apples and oranges, are you talking about pumping to ladder pipes or hand lines,stick to one arguement. if you are not a mechanic your shop or dealer must love you!

[S. Cook]

*As for scott.. Are you talking about lines....or nozzles? The way your post was worded it sounded like nozzles.

I'm talking about both, lines, nozzles and lines with nozzles on them. Either way if anyone told you that it was unsafe to go bigger than 150gpm on a 1.75" line or nozzle they don't know what they are talking about - it's that simple.

BFD1071, what nozzle are you using on your 1.75" (or 1.5" whichever you use)?

[This message has been edited by S. Cook (edited April 01, 2000).]

[LHS']

BFD

...we do not run at 250 on our ladder pipes. Infact..we try not to go above 150 ep...

Hmmm, 80 psi plus height 43 psi, loss in siamese and gun___?? plus loss in 3 lines to the siamese... do not exceed 150 psi.

I see max flow 500 gpm. What a waste of a good ladder.

As far as over tightening, don't. If you leave it in the middle ie 200 psi it certainly isn't over tightened and when we have to replace the first one will let you know.

[LHS']

...From the 2 academies i have been too, both have told me that flow above 150 gpm in the 1.75 hose is unsafe and foolish...

Well you best contact all the major magazines, IFSTA, all the major fire department in the US, NFPA, ISFSI, NFA, and many others and get them to stop doing and teaching because they don't agree with you or the "academies".

... I seem to remeber that above this flow, you get Turbulant water flow which increases friction loss, makes the pump work harder. ...

I seem to "remeber" all flow through a fire hose is turbulant. Friction according to folks like RAND makes up only 4 to 6% of what we call friction loss the ballance is due to turbulance in the line. That is why friction reducing additives work. The didn't reduce friction they simply lined up the water.

Any increase in flow makes the pump work harder. If harder mean higher pressure. If the pump stays within its operating envelope and if the engine transmission selection was right most trucks on the street don't have a 300 rpm difference between 150 or 250 psi at draft which would equate to a 150 to 200 rpm change in working harder off a hydrant.

And Dalmation, we've never lost a length of hose in 5 years. I guess it is because we don't buy low bid. 1500 psi to 2000 psi test with 500 to 600 psi operating capability. All protected by dangerously pre-set relief valves that exercise themselves everytime the pump is engaged. Feel free to call the manufacturer and ask how many springs and seats and other non-sense we haven't replaced, they'll tell you, none.

All our hose is UL labeled and batch tested. Our safety factor is at least 10 to 1 versus the average hose with 3 to 1 or in some cases which most of you use only a 15 psi margin. We use 300 psi 5" not 185 psi that is the most common in the US. All hose is also protected by a host of dump valves all pre-set as it our ladder pipes. We test our hose and pumps to the national standards.

[Dalmatian90]

Well, Larry, I don't have to call your manufacturers to see how many springs you've replaced because I agree with you on that -- ours are normally set to 200psi day in day out, but you're so concerned with preaching the gospel according to Larry, I guess you don't read or understand other's posts. Just look for points to attack.

My point, as I'm pretty sure most people would've read it, is that you stated flat out, "Our hose doesn't burst."

That's all well a good, and it's good you buy hose above average in performance. That doesn't mean that hose won't fail. It just reduces the chances -- that's fine, and it's called risk management, we run high pressures, we buy better hose.

[HILLBILLY70]

I think Boston and Churchill oughta duke it out.

[HILLBILLY70]

I really think Boston and Churchill oughta duke it out, and the loser has to say the other one is right.


[This message has been edited by HILLBILLY70 (edited April 02, 2000).]

[LHS']

Funny thing, the Waterous book and chart suggests pre-setting their relief valve.

[FyredUp]

Hey Larry,

Don't your new quints and Pumper tankers have Darley pumps? If so, how do you justify using a Waterous Pump Book as your guide on how to set the relief valve for your apparatus? Or does Darley use Waterous relief valves? Or am I missing your point. Please explain.

Take care and stay safe.

Don

[FyredUp]

Hey Larry,

Don't your new quints and Pumper tankers have Darley pumps? If so, how do you justify using a Waterous Pump Book as your guide on how to set the relief valve for your apparatus? Or does Darley use Waterous relief valves? Or am I missing your point. Please explain.

Take care and stay safe.

Don

[LHS']

...Don't your new quints and Pumper tankers have Darley pumps?...

uh huh.

...If so, how do you justify using a Waterous Pump Book as your guide on how to set the relief valve for your apparatus?...

Pray tell, where did I say I used a Waterous book to set my apparatus?

...Or does Darley use Waterous relief valves?...

Of course not.

...Or am I missing your point...

Could it be I got money to buy 37 fire trucks with Waterous pumps so far this year? And just maybe I read the book and got one of their charts? If so, should I follow what the manufacturer wrote?

If this forum is a guide, only Hale's springs fail and have a memory and the others don't. Only Hale has lousy springs but every other spring on a fire truck used for any purpose does not have a memory and doesn't fail (ie. intake reliefs, pump suction reliefs, discharge reliefs, aerial waterway reliefs, etc.).

[S. Cook]

Larry - Does your 37 apparatus include the 10 we finally ordered yesterday?

[LHS']

Nope, I guess you sent off a P/O so I stand corrected 47 Waterous pumps.

[WRENCH]

Larry, you never did answer the question . Are you a F/F or a mechanic or both. It is obvious that you are the most perfect fire dept in thw world. The biggest and best equiptment, more manning than you could ask for , the best trained and an unlimited budget. Unfortunatly the rest of us pheasants, especially in the northeast are lucky if we have 3 men engines so any thing more than 150#s on an 1 3/4 you hold on tight. Most of us have to kick and scratch to get what we get. Forget manpower and ocassionly they toss us a bone and buy us a toy.I am sur your maintainance budget if you are a mechanic is 0 because your apparatus is so good nothing breaks and every body is so well trained. I'am suprised they even allow fires to happen in your county. Have a good day.

[LHS']

WRENCH

Keep your personal attacks to yourself or feel free to email them. Try to stay on the topic and keep you petty jealousies to your self.

[HILLBILLY70]

Yeah WRENCH, you know Larry is the greatest, so quit being jealous of him!

[CAM]

Has anyone bothered to pull out your owners manual that came with your apparatus?
It appears that no one has bothered to read the instructions.
You are talking about a RELIEF VALVE not a govenor.
It is to be set approx 10 to 20 PSI above the pressure that is to be pumped. It is a protection device and not a pressure regulator.Learn how the truck opperates first then operate it at an accepted and prudent manner.

[Kelly Tool]

Ok, I have to agree with CAM, as for flows we flow 150 GPM out of our 1.75, if we try to do any more, we are fighting the hose. We use TFT nozzles, fog, they operate at 100psi, plus what ever friction loss and that is the pressure. I am taking a pump operations course and we are told discharge pressure on any one discharge no matter what it is(master stream, hand line etc) should not excede 200psi. Maybe we are a bunch of wimps, but what Larry was talking about flowing on the 1.75 would knock us all around. My theory is operate the pump so the guys on the end of the line are comfortable, if you need more water, pull more lines, and get more trucks. We did a draft operation last night, with pressure reliefs, we reset them any time there was another line pulled. As i under stand relief valves, it is like this; you have 2 hand lines, operating at 100 psi each, if a guy at one nozzle shuts down the Pressure Relief Valve keeps the pressure from adding to the other line and knocking those guys off their rocker.

Thats how i understand it, correct me if i'm wrong.

------------------
Put the wet stuff on the red stuff!
Visit our Dept. Schodack Valley (http://www.angelfire.com/ny3/svfc32)

[This message has been edited by Kelly Tool (edited April 27, 2000).]

[S. Cook]

Not saying you need corrected, just playing devils advocate...

>we are told discharge pressure on any one discharge no matter what it is(master stream, hand line etc) should not excede 200psi.

If you would, please ask the instructor why, I'm interested in the answer. It's being done safely all across this great land of ours. And it's effective.

At a maximum of 200psi, you can flow 220gpm + through up to 200' of 1.75" hose (using Angus FL card for quick ref.).

Limiting yourself to 200psi leaves you with short runs of hose that are ineffective when you need a longer run, or longer runs of hose that are inneffective.

Not exceding 200psi may be true for older pumps, but not newer ones.

> flowing on the 1.75 would knock us all around.

We used to say the same thing.

You should be able to handle a 1.75" way beyond 150gpm by yourself with no problems. Don't fight your hose, work with it. Get down on your knees, get most of it on the ground.

[WRENCH]

Not being sarcstic, it seems like everyone is trying to be superman.This post is turning into who can top who with higher pressure than the next guy.With manning at a premium both career and volunteer, why do we feel it is necessary to pump higher waterflow and beat up there people.If anyone would stop to read the text books and see what the recommended manpower is for various hoselines, I would like to know where some of you seem to find it to handle hose lines at those kind of pressures.we do well with 1 or 2 men on a line with 100 to 125 psi with a TFT on a 150 ft handline in keeping jobs to 1 room..For most of us if you are going to need higher flows you aren't going to control it or put it out with hand lines so stop the macho and don't beat the troops.

[S. Cook]

If we don't challenge the textbooks how do we progress? How did we make it this far?

We're not beating the troops, they can and do handle it with no problem.

1 person on the tip, one person 4 feet or so back to help move the line.

Get the line moved into place, tip FF kneels sideways, down on both knees, puts the line under shin, runs the tip with enough hose to manouver it up between the legs, and works the nozzle.

Hose FF simply puts both hands on the hose and pins it to the floor.

In reality the tip FF can handle the load, but needs someone to help keep the line moving when the stretches get long.

Try it. If it doesn't work for you then it doesn't work for you. If you'd like a pic to be sure you get it set right let me know.

Scott

[This message has been edited by S. Cook (edited April 28, 2000).]

[EPFD-AL]

It's nice, REAL NICE, to have these fire engines, pumps, hose, and nozzles around NOW to allow this discussion. It shows just how far the fire service has come, and where it might be headed. I doubt this discussion and these arguements about fire flows and pressures would have been possible if we were still using our old "Class B" gasoline powered 110 hp 500 gpm engines with 350 gallon water tanks (that had 1 inch tank to pump piping). Does anyone remember 4 inch wooden water mains, and the old heavy four layer canvass hose with pin lugs? While I could get the pump pressure up to 200 - 250 psi and flow what I thought back then was lots of water, my old engine, which was built to IAFE (International Association of Fire Engineers) recomendations couldn't do it for long. For one, I'd go deaf from the roar of the motor; which would overheat, and suck down gasoline faster than I could fill it. The transmission would get so hot it would glow, and the pressure governor springs on the carburetor would stretch from the heat and require resetting. Today's fire engines are so, so much better; and I for one welcome the changes and the progress. Thankfully two things haven't changed: The first is the dedication and commitment that firefighters everywhere have; and the second is our willingness to talk and well, argue. PLEASE DON'T STOP!