friction loss rule of thumb ?????

[bfd1071]

Can anyone answer a question i have in regards to 1.75 hose and a friction loss rule of thumb.

I have been told different "rule of thumb" friction loss for Angus hose. I know the more water the more friction loss. I have been told 25 per 100 feet total water flow of 180 gpm, then i have been told 40 per 100 feet. can anyone answer this for me?

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** The opionions are mine and mine alone, they are not that of my dept or the local**

[COFireLt]

Your best bet would be to dig out the books and find a formula that's easiest for you, it seems like everyone has a way to figure it out. I use a cheat sheet with the FL already figured for all handline sizes and the same for relay pumping ect.... as for the gpm, we have standards as far as most uses. There are several books that will help determining the formula that works best for you. Fire Engineering has a couple editions on first service hydraulics, covering theory, water, practice, and foam. They are kinda older editions but very useful. Have fun!!

[Ward Watson]

bfd1071,

Remember that rule of thumb is a number derived from a master hydraulic calculation. In the IFSTA Fire Streams book, the formula for calculating friction loss is C x Q (squared)x L. Where Q is the coefficient of friction, which in the case of 1.75" hose is 15.5. Q is gallons per minute divided by 100. L is the length of hose divided by 100. You have chosen to use 180 gpm. Now lets put it all together.

C x Q(squared)x L =

C=15.5
Q=180/100=1.8
L=100/100=1

15.5 x 1.8(squared)x 1 =
15.5 x 3.24 x 1 = 50.22 psi fl

Remember that rule of thumb is an approximation of a figure derived from a master hydraulic calculation.

So in conclusion, we can safely say that a good rule of thumb for 1.75" hose flowing 180gpm is 50 psi per 100'

[LHS']

Simplest formula is 1 gpm for every psi pump pressure on a 200 foot line. 150 psi 150 gpm, 200 psi 200 gpm, etc

[bfd1071]

Thanks for your replies

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** The opionions are mine and mine alone, they are not that of my dept or the local**

[KEA]

bfd1071:
Angus High Combat FL ?

When you get told something by a manufacture or their representative please make them prove it to your satisfaction.

A recent test in NY using BRAND NEW Angus High Combat hose supplied by the local vendor provided the following results.

Note: The test was done with 100' of hose to establish the known FL for 100 feet.

EP NP GPM FL
140 60 278 80

A recent test of 100-of Angus High Combat in New Mexico resulted in this set of numbers

EP NP GPM FL
160 60 360 100

Add the friction loss to the EP for another 100 feet of hose and you can quickly tell that the 1-psi per 1-gpm idea would not work for this brand hose.


To all:
As far as using 1-psi per gpm desired on 200 feet of hose....Chew on these results and you decide if such a concept works for you.

EP NP GPM FL 200'of hose
145 100 99 45
135 35 160 100

These are results of a recent test done by a NY department. As you can see, the proposed concept of 1-psi per 1-gpm would have told you to pump 99-psi for a flow of 99-gpm on the first test. Unfortunatly that engine pressure would fall 45-psi short of what it actually took to get the 99-gpm.

The second test using the proposed 1-psi per 1-gpm concept would give you an engine pressure of 160-psi....25-psi higher than needed to actually get the desired flow of 160-gpm.

I personally do not care for rule of thumb numbers. The hose brands that are out there are too numerous and different for this idea to work proplery in my opinion.

Build a pump chart by using a flowmeter placed on the intake of your rig and pull each line and test the flow. Once the desired flow is achieved simply record the EP it took to get it and now you KNOW what your flowing instead of guessing.

Besides, do you want to be the one that sits on the witness stand one day after a LODD and tell the judge, "Our rule of thumb tells us that we were flowing 99-gpm", when in actuality you were pumping 45-psi short of what you thought you were gettting.

Opinions, myths, ideas, etc..., they are useless without facts to back them up.

TEST...TEST....TEST! KNOW what your flowing!

This post is not intended to promote or degrade any person or product. It is simply my opinion backed with facts to support it.




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Kirk Allen
First Strike Technologies, Inc

[NUMBY]

We use mostly angus High Combat and we were switching some hose loads one day and wanted to test out calculations to see how accurate they were. What we noticed with the high combat was that at low pressures it has about the same friction loss as other cotton 1 3/4. But when we increased our pressure the friction loss actually went down. The only thing we could come up with is that the hose was actually expanding at higher pressures. I have heard from other people that at higer pressures the high combat will swell to almost 2". Hard to use any rule of thumb calculation. Best thing to do is get some flow meters and pressure gauges and go out and do lots of testing as we did.

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Anything left in the forums is my opinion and does not reflect my department or any organization i belong to.

[KEA]

Numby: You hit the nail on the head. FLOW meters don't lie if they are calibrated properly.

If you want to have fun with the hose salesman try this:

Take a blood pressure cuff and place it around a charged line at 75-psi. Bring the pressure up to around 175 and watch the gauge grow! The more the gauge moves, the more the hose expands under pressure.

It takes the sales pitch out of one hose type trying to knock another by claiming one expands as the excuse for better FL numbers.

I dont care if it expands as long as the inner liner is not glued to the inner jacket. If it is, the growth underpressure streaches the glue and evenutually it will delaminate.



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Kirk Allen
First Strike Technologies, Inc

[bfd1071]

You state to use a flow meter, where do you put it? We run 100 feet of 2.5 that goes down to the 1.75 line. I beleive it is about 300 feet total. They put the flow meter at the end of the 2.5 line. Would it be better to use a smooth bore and a pitot gauge? You do loose alot of gpm due to friction loss at the nozzle correct? Tell me what you think.

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** The opionions are mine and mine alone, they are not that of my dept or the local**

[KEA]

bfd1071:
"where do you put it?"

I would recomend placing it on the intake. This permits you to pull any line (One at a time) and test the flow.

What type of flowmeter do you have? You can use the smooth bore and pitot to calibrate it assuming its a flow meter that can be calibrated. If you can't calibrate it your flows may show one thing and actually be another.

"They put the flow meter at the end of the 2.5 line."

You can do this although depending on the type of flow meter you may find that your flows are different when you take the flowmeter out of the line. It shouldnt be that noticable although I have seen one off brand flowmeter that had VERY high FL and would definatly make a difference. I do not know the name of it, however I have not seen them at any shows since the IAFC show in St. Louis. I doubt your using that type of flowmeter.

!!!!!Dont place a flow meter in line that the city water department uses. Those also have treturous FL and will definatly effect your flow numbers vs pump pressure when you take it out. (Your flows would be higher)

"Would it be better to use a smooth bore and a pitot gauge?"

If that is what you use on that line...YES. If not, use a flowmeter. The reason I say this is depending on the care you have given you nozzles over the years they may or may not flow what they are supposed to at a given nozzle pressure. This becomes more evident with automatics that have not been serviced regularly. (THIS IS NOT AN ATTACK ON AUTOMATIC NOZZLES)

I say this because of a recent test done in Texas with 6 automatic nozzles of the same model, at the same discharge pressure, flowed between 162-232 gpm. Not one of them flowed the same and one would not regulate NP. These nozzles were on active engine companies, yet had never been serviced, even though the manufacutre tells them to.

After testing a brand new one of the same brand, we did achive proper nozzle pressure according to the manufactures specifications.

I want to emphasize that this is a service problem! When serivced properly 99% of the nozzles on the market work just fine. If you don't serivce them (Assuming your nozzle requires routine service) dont blame the manufactures...unless it makes you feel better.

"You do loose alot of gpm due to friction loss at the nozzle correct?"

Some nozzle do have a much lower exit pressure than inlet pressure. The difference is your FL in the nozzle.

If your nozzle is flowing 200-gpm, the FL inside the nozzle could be a million psi, yet it is still flowing 200-gpm. What goes in, comes out.

If 200-gpm comes out of the discharge, you will have 200-gpm come out the other end of the hose...you only loose pressure, not flow.

Hope this helps!

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Kirk Allen
First Strike Technologies, Inc

[LHS']

""As far as using 1-psi per gpm desired on 200 feet of hose....Chew on these results and you decide if such a concept works for you. These are results of a recent test done by a NY department""

Thats nice, I'll trust the UL label on the hose and the UL friction loss tests that came with the product. They test our ladders and don't sell hose or nozzles. UL says 250 gpm 59 psi on the hose we use. NP 100 60 plus 60 = 220 rule of thumb 250 psi. Close enough for me. Heck there just might be some line loss in the plumbing. 200 gpm according to UL 38 psi 100 plus 40 plus 40 176 psi, gosh I'm off by 24 psi, so what. In either case run a 250 foot line and be dead on.

"". As you can see, the proposed concept of 1-psi per 1-gpm would have told you to pump 99-psi for a flow of 99-gpm on the first test. Unfortunatly that engine pressure would fall 45-psi short of what it actually took to get the 99-gpm.""

Gee if you are really pumping 99 gpm with 1 3/4" hose you might ask why yu're not using 1" or 1 1/2" hose instead.

UL 3.4 psi at 100 gpm. 3.4 x 2 = NP = 107 psi, off by 7 psi.

After all he asked for friction loss rules of thumb. Why don't you offer one nozzle salesman.

""I personally do not care for rule of thumb numbers. The hose brands that are out there are too numerous and different for this idea to work proplery in my opinion.

Build a pump chart by using a flowmeter placed on the intake of your rig and pull each line and test the flow. Once the desired flow is achieved simply record the EP it took to get it and now you KNOW what your flowing instead of guessing.""

We have all the stuff you mention on each and every rig figured to lays to 9000 feet. It is from that that we put together our rules of thumb.

YOu know 1 psi equals 1 gpm

flow in hundreds divided by 2 equals FL in 5" hose, UL says 4.1 psi we say 5 at 1000 gpm.

1" hose EP divided by 3 = gpm on a 150 line.

gpm in hundreds times it self equals fl in 3" 4 x 4 = 16 psi FL UL says the same.


<<Besides, do you want to be the one that sits on the witness stand one day after a LODD and tell the judge, "Our rule of thumb tells us that we were flowing 99-gpm", when in actuality you were pumping 45-psi short of what you thought you were gettting. >>

Oh I'm sure that will happen, tell me where? We sit on seat belts, go into fully involved McDonalds that are vacant, send guys in vacant structures, don't wear masks, don't account for our people for 1 hour, say "we didn't know who was onscene" at fatal fires, don't follow fire codes, national standards, or ISO.... oh please give us a list of a few dozen folks getting sued over EPs and NPs or telling the judge squat. In some states, it is the judges who fund or don't fund the fire department.

So I'm asking you to back up your statement "Opinions, myths, ideas, etc..., they are useless without facts to back them up. "

So who's on the witness stand and where?

[Capt. Zada]

LHS;

Your last post was very confusing as to what ideas you were presenting. Please explain them.

[KEA]

LHS:
Larry I'm glad that your rule of thumb works for you. As you pointed out, you achieved your rule of thumb by building a pump chart.

"Gee if you are really pumping 99 gpm with 1 3/4" hose you might ask why yu're not using 1" or 1 1/2" hose instead."

I was not the one pumping these flows Larry so relax. I agree if that is all they were going to flow why have that size line. See Larry, we can agree on something. What a novel idea http://www.firehouse.com/interactive/boards/smile.gif

"gosh I'm off by 24 psi, so what"

Well I think a 24 psi mistake could lead to a real problem if it ends up that your nozzle is getting 25-psi less than needed.

A nozzle (NO BRAND NAME OR TYPE MENTIONED) that is rated at 212gpm @ 100-psi NP only flows 73-gpm at 75-psi NP. If you missed your target by 25-psi could you have 25-psi less nozzle pressure? If so, you lost 66% of your flow over a 25-psi mistake. If this doesn't bother you then fine.

"Why don't you offer one nozzle salesman."

I think my post made it clear why I do not promote a rule of thumb. I'm confident that the people reading the information posted are smart enough to figure out what to use and what not to use. My suggestion was clear, and even was confirmed by yourself as being a valid way to do it with your last post. Thanks Larry, we again found mutual ground to stand on http://www.firehouse.com/interactive/boards/smile.gif

"do you want to be the one that sits on the witness stand one day"

"ONE DAY" Larry! I did not say that anyone was sitting on the witness stand but I must ask, are you of the opinion this cant or won't happen?

I'm simply trying to promote sound principals to ensure people know what they are flowing. Nothing more Larry.

I'm sorry if my post bothers you. That was not its intent.

Have a nice Day http://www.firehouse.com/interactive/boards/smile.gif




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Kirk Allen
First Strike Technologies, Inc

[KEA]

LHS:
"UL says 250 gpm 59 psi on the hose we use."

What brand of hose do you use? You say UL says... Are you stating that the hose you use is UL listed?



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Kirk Allen
First Strike Technologies, Inc

[LHS']

<<Well I think a 24 psi mistake could lead to a real problem if it ends up that your nozzle is getting 25-psi less than needed.>>

Dang a that would be a real trick pump 24 pounds less and the nozzle gets 25 psi less. I guess that goes along with your, “I'm simply trying to promote sound principals to ensure people know what they are flowing.” Concept. Modern math I guess. 250 gpm auto tip will maintain 100 psi NP with 24 psi less for flow. I’ll just have to scrape by on 230 gpm. I bet the fire will never know. I guess we could go to override and get the flow up to a mere 280 gpm. At 226 psi Ep with a fixed flow 250 gpm tip if I follow your hydraulics, if I pump 24 pounds less the nozzle will drop 25 psi and the friction loss won’t change. Guess what? It doesn’t work that way, at 75 psi the 250 tip flows 217 gpm. The FL would then drop too. Reality is a slightly lower EP equals a slightly lower gpm even 24 psi wouldn’t make squat for difference to the fire.

<<A nozzle (NO BRAND NAME OR TYPE MENTIONED) that is rated at 212gpm @ 100-psi NP only flows 73-gpm at 75-psi NP.>>

Another make flows 1000 gpm at 100 psi and only 300 gpm at 70 psi. And they’ve worked well for over 25 years. Dang if you missed the target by 30 psi you’d be off by 700 gpm.

<Are you stating that the hose you use is UL listed?>

Every length of it is labeled, and 1 in ten lengths is flow tested.

<What brand of hose do you use?>

2000 psi test 700 psi working pressure Mercedes Textile hose.

<<are you of the opinion this cant or won't happen>>

Sure when hell freezes over. Gee 25 psi is a killer, so why are relief valves allowed to have a 30 psi variation, pressure gauges a 6% high or low difference on a 600 psi face, guys with smooth bore tips can’t even get the relief valve to work at 60 to 95 psi pressures, plumbing on the cross lays is set for 200 gpm with 40 psi loss and 100 psi loss out the rear, nozzles you say have 25 psi losses in them, every make of flow has a different friction loss of as much as 100 psi at the same flow, flow meters round out flow to the nearest 10 gpm or so maybe???? and you are sniveling about 25 psi????? So where are all these fires that are not going out just fine with all the nozzles everyone is using? Start the class action suit to save all these guys lives.

[KEA]

LHS: Lets try this again. What brand of hose do you use?

"Well I think a 24 psi mistake could lead to a real problem if it ends up that your nozzle is getting 25-psi less than needed."

Note Larry that the post clearly states IF IT ENDS UP THAT YOUR NOZZLE IS GETTING 25-PSI LESS THAN NEEDED.

Maybe I missed somehting but I normally add NP to my total EP. If my hose is eating up 25-psi more FL than I thought, then my nozzle MAY not be getting that extra 25-psi due to FL.

I dont think that I mentioned anything about pumping less Larry. You did. Your correct that if you pump less your flow is less thus less FL. What you didnt state is that if you EP stays the same and you have more FL than you thought (25-psi) your nozzle is not getting the pressure you thought either.

I simply gave an example of a certain nozzle that when not supplied properly can lead to a dramatic flow drop that people should be aware of. I think its great that you have selected nozzles that do not have that problem. Great Work!

I think however I found the error in my post that lead to your attack of my post.

You stated:
"We have all the stuff you mention on each and every rig figured to lays to 9000 feet. It is from that that we put together our rules of thumb"

I'm sorry Larry. Your "Rule of Thumb" is based on MEASURED resulst based on what I read in your post. My modern day meaning of rule of thumb was different than yours.

Now that I understand your rule of thumb is based on measured results I agree that for your engine, your hose, your nozzles, your "Rule of Thumb" works great....FOR YOU http://www.firehouse.com/interactive/boards/smile.gif

I'm curious Larry, why is it when other people post things that conflict with your ideas you reamain silent yet when I post, you go to great lengths to attack me and my ideas?

You know that Numby's post was promoting the same thing as I yet your silent. You know that Ward Watson's numbers do not support your idea yet you are silent.

Your last paragraph in your post implies to me that you know there are numerous problems out there yet we shouldn't try to fix them. I simply disagree with you, and I have that right!

I have never implied that any type of class action suite should be raised. I simply do my best to teach people ways to limit there exposure form a potential legal issue.

If you think this will only happen when hell freezes over then fine. You are entitled to you opinioin.

Is your problem with me that fact that we will never advertise in your magazine for reasons your well aware of? I havent noticed Elkhart or Akron advertising in your magazine either.

I hope that one day you will have the opportunity to talk with people that know me and know what I teach or better yet, sit in on a class. You will find that contrary to what you have been told from our competitors, I do know what I'm doing.

I wish the best to you Larry and hope that in the future we can one day work towards the common good of the fire service. Such anomosity simply clouds the important issues that should be discussed.

Take care and Stay Safe!


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Kirk Allen
First Strike Technologies, Inc

[LHS']

Gee, why to I reply to you? You mention my name, or what I said in a post. So I'm not suppose to reply. We use Mercedes Textile hose.

///Maybe I missed somehting but I normally add NP to my total EP. ////

I believe EP equals NP plus FL. So why do you add NP a second time?

///If my hose is eating up 25-psi more FL than I thought, then my nozzle MAY not be getting that extra 25-psi due to FL. ///

You hammer me one second with threats of going to court if you overpump a line 24 psi like my rule of thumb suggested, because I'll be missing 25 psi nozzle pressure.

Let's do the math, let's add the 24 psi additional EP:

Automatic tip NP still 100 psi, flow instead of 250 gpm will be 281 gpm. The fire won't care, the judge won't care, the friction loss will now be 75 psi not 59, who cares? What difference does it make? Nozzle reaction is 16 pounds higher, I'll simply not open the nozzle all the way and never know it. Still no NP drop to due FL.

Lower flow automatic???: 125 gpm automatic would need an NP of 350 psi flows 230 gpm. Np would need to be 470 psi. The flow would go up a tad the FL would go up a tad. Still no loss of NP.

Fixed flow nozzle: 100 psi at 250 gpm will now flow 268 gpm at 115 psi NP and the friction loss will increase to 68 psi per length. Still no NP drop.

Smoothbore: 15/16 tip 100 psi 250 gpm, The EP would jump to 110 psi, the friction loss to 70 and the flow would go crazy to 267 gpm and nozzle reaction would increase 15 pounds. Still no NP drop.

Open butt: 14.5 psi NP flows 230 gpm with an EP of 117 psi and FL of 51 add 24 psi to the EP now it flows 254 gpm with FL of 61 and NP of 18. Still no NP drop.


I wrote ... gosh I'm off by 24 psi, so what?

Then you responded, ///Well I think a 24 psi mistake could lead to a real problem if it ends up that your nozzle is getting 25-psi less than needed. ///

It doesn't work that way,

///What you didnt state is that if you EP stays the same and you have more FL than you thought (25-psi) your nozzle is not getting the pressure you thought either. ///

OK EP stays the same 220 psi IT IS IMPOSSIBLE to have more FL unless you're changing hose diameter on me or the length of the line...UL says and you said I was under pumping my lines by 24 psi. SO PLEASE TELL US HOW THE FL INCREASES!!!!

Why do I bother responding to you? Because you post crap like the above.

///I simply gave an example of a certain nozzle that when not supplied properly can lead to a dramatic flow drop that people should be aware of. I think its great that you have selected nozzles that do not have that problem. ///

So, which nozzles are causing all these problems? Do they meet NFPA standards at the time of manufacture? Do they perform as advertised? How often do they need to be maintained? Every nozzle they make does this or just a few or a certain year or model? Come on man speak up, don't hide it. What will the judge say?

Back to the tipic at hand, One more rule of thumb, with our hose that is dead on, always at any and every flow.

4 times 2 1/2" FL is the FL for the 1 3/4" hose.

4 inch hose gpm in hundreds is the FL per 100 feet times 2. 4 hundred gpm times 2 is 8 psi FL, 6oo is 12 psi, 1000 gpm is 20 psi.

2 1/2" rule of thumb. Number each finger 1 through 10/ Left hand little finger say is 1 or 100 gpm, next finger is 2 or 200 gpm, etc.

The knuckle below each finger starting left to right is numbered by counting in odd number fashion 3, 5, 7, 9, 11, 13, etc.

Multiply the first finguer by the knuckle of 3 equals FL of 3 psi per 100 feet of 2 1/2 inch hose flowing 100 gpm. 2 times 5 is 10 psi fir 200 gpm, 300 gpm 3 times 7 is 21 psi, etc. Not exacly rule of thumb but if you calculate the thumb as 500 gpm the FL is 55 psi the other at 1000 gpm is 210 psi.

[KEA]

LHS:

LARRY my original post was clear, and had measured results to support my opinion.

I will not respond to your twists of the intent of my post nor will I be silent on matters that I feel are important.

If you disagree so be it, If you dont like what I say, so be it. You cannot disprove the facts of my original post. A rule of thumb can and does get people in trouble. Your so called rule of thumb was not what most would call a rule of thumb considering it was bassed on measured resulst.

"You hammer me one second with threat of going to court if you overpump a line 24 psi like my rule of thumb suggested"

Great twist Larry! Go back and get it right Larry. MY post dealt with the fact one test reflected the pump pressure would have been off 45-psi, on the low side. Your the one who mentioned that your own theory was off by 24-psi and you stated "so what".

Why would you imply that I am hammering YOU with threats? I'm not threatening any one.

I never once suggested that overpumping was BAD, I simply pointed out that the rule of thumb you suggest would not work for the hose that was tested. Nothing MORE!

I apprecieate your trying to tear me down with the use of automatic nozzle theory Larry. The fact remains, your rule of thumb did not work for the brand hose outlined and one of those tests was with an automatic nozzle. The point was to encuourage people to FLOW TEST and to build a chart....JUST LIKE YOU DID LARRY!

You simply blow off the facts by questioning why a department uses a particular size hose. What they use is what they use! Your rule of thumb would not apply to that hose! Nothing more!

Why is this turning into a nozzle discussion Larry? I am not permitted to mention nozzle brands on this forum as you are so well aware. However since you are so knowledgable surly you know what nozzles I'm speeking of. I will say again, considering your trying to twist what I said, it is not a nozzle problem! Your attempt to imply that it is by twisting what I said is not appreciated! This is a pumping problem and unfortunalty is masked by certain types of nozzles.

"What will the judge say?"
How would I know Larry? Why such an attack on the subject of legal issues when the post was simply attempting to help people limit their exposure to possible action.

What does it take to have a civil conversation with you. All attempts seam futal.

I truely wish you well and again hope that one day your obvious anomosity towards me and our company can be set aside for the betterment of the fire service.

Stay safe and thanks for you posts.



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Kirk Allen
First Strike Technologies, Inc

[LHS']

///A rule of thumb can and does get people in trouble.///

Well, get on the horn and get IFSTA to quit posting them.

///I simply pointed out that the rule of thumb you suggest would not work for the hose that was tested.//

Well here is one that will work for them

2 times EP equals flow for all those departments using 100 foot attack lines out there. It is a shame you don’t use 50 foot or 20 foot lines you might get 1000 gpm at low pump pressures.

Oh well, I guess these mystery nozzles you are always putting down to build your product up will have to go unnamed. Secrets I guess.

[EPFD-AL]

Here's my question: If I started work at 1800 HRS one hot and humid July night and after humping hose and pulling ceilings at four or five fires does anybody REALLY think I'm going to care about 24 GPM or 24 PSI?

[P.P.]

LHS,

Here is the data from the Elkhart book on thier SM series nozzles (Automatics).

SM-20 100-PSI NP = 212-GPM
SM-20 75-PSI NP = 73-GPM

SM-30 100-PSI NP = 300-GPM
SM-30 75-PSI NP = 112-GPM

SM-100 100-PSI NP = 1000-GPM
SM-100 80-PSI NP = 200-GPM

It is quite apparent that being off by 25-psi can cause a problem and your right the fire won't notice a difference in these flows, but the firefighters I think would.

I to am a nozzle salesman, and I sell most brands.

I would appreciate if you would not twist my post as you have with the posts from KEA.

Stay Safe!

P.P.

[KEA]

Thanks Larry, but it wont work.
I have not put down any product nor have I even mentioned anything about our product.

Again, your misinformed. Did you miss my post regarding Elkhart nozzles in the past? I clearly endorse and promote combination nozzles contrary to what you think.

I believe that all nozzles are simply a tool in the tool box to be used by the person that feels its the tool for the job at hand. NOTHING MORE! I'm confident they are smart enough to pick the right tool without being told which product they should use.

I appreciate PP pointing out some information that clearly supports why I promote building pump charts.

A rule of thumb that is off 45-psi like I stated in my first post CAN lead to 25-psi off at the nozzle depending on flow and length.

Looking at the post of PP you can now see that 25-psi off at the nozzle can mean as much as 190% less flow for the SM-20, 167% less flow for the SM-30 and 400%less flow for the SM-100.

Before you start Larry...Read my post above. This is not a nozzle problem as you have attempted to claim I have stated. This is a pumping problem.

I commend Elkhart for being the only one I know of that published the excact flows for their nozzles when underpressureized.

"secrets I guess"

If we had any secrets to keep why would we be the first Nozzle company to make it mandatory for our distributors and reps to utilize UL listed flowmeters Larry? We have nothing to hide even though you continue to insinuate otherwise.

I'm done http://www.firehouse.com/interactive/boards/smile.gif I will no longer respond to LHS on this thread.

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Kirk Allen
First Strike Technologies, Inc

[FyredUp]

bfd1071,

For preconnects, test them with a flowmeter and mark the gauges for the flows you want.

For made up lines, test a specific length, say 100 feet, at sepcific flows, again with a flow meter, and then make up a pump chart.

Obviuosly the preconnects will have to be checked for each rig due to possible pump piping differences. The made up lines could be done once if the hose used is the same on all the different rigs in your department.

Rules of thumb are great assuming that all things are equal, unfortunately with today's hose that rarely is true. Each manufacturer sells 1 3/4" hose. Some is 1 3/4", some is actually near or over 2 inch. If flow meters and pressure gauges are used and pump charts developed there is no need to guestimate anything.

Take care,

Don

These are my opinions, yours may differ. Have a nice day!!

[KEA]

For those who are interested, the following quote is from Angus. It can be found on there web sight:

"Do not accept theoretical data. "

Who to know better than the people who make it!

:http://www.angusfire.com/Angus/HOW%20TO%20BUY%20FIRE%20HOSE.h tml

If you disagree with my post, take it up with Angus. I'm simply the messanger.



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Kirk Allen
First Strike Technologies, Inc

[LHS']

It has been written in regards to pumping 24 psi TOO MUCH ,

///The second test using the proposed 1-psi per 1-gpm concept would give you an engine pressure of 160-psi....25-psi higher than needed to actually get the desired flow of 160-gpm.///

then you wrote:

\Well I think a 24 psi mistake could lead to a real problem if it ends up that your nozzle is getting 25-psi less than needed.//

As you can plainly see, even an Elkhart nozzle will not lose 25 psi at the nozzle when you pump too much. No one is twisting you words, you said this ridiculous stuff not me.

///This is not a nozzle problem as you have attempted to claim I have stated.///

then we read: ///that 25-psi off at the nozzle can mean as much as 190% less flow for the SM-20, 167% less flow for the SM-30 and 400%less flow for the SM-100.//


Sounds like a nozzle issue, anyone else care to give their opinion?

[Capt. Zada]

Larry is a TFT supporter. I don't know if he just likes them or has a financial interest. Kirk manufacturers and sells the Vindicator nozzle. I wish that they would both grow up and agree to quit taking up so much forum space. I don't care if you want to fight, just do it by telephone, e-mail, or in person. We don't need this crap from the either of you.

[KEA]

To All: I couldn't agree with Captain Zada more!

Unfortunatly, LHS does not post an e-mail address for a response directly.

As I said before, I will no longer respond to LHS.

[LHS']

///a TFT supporter///

Last I checked the discussion was about rules of thumb. Have I mentioned TFT somewhere? Have I compared all nozzle styles? Others are mentioning trade names, including those who sell stuff. What are they selling? Why not tear someone else's product down if you can sell something? Obviously, that is what is going on here.

Note kirk doesn't mention the Vindicator wouldn't flow as much water without 24 psi or 25 psi at the tip. I guess he forgot. It only applies to other peoples nozzles.

[FyredUp]

LHS,

It does seem kind of odd you not having an e-mail address posted. Especially since you accused me of hiding on another forum here. My e-mail address has always been posted and people are free to contact me. Why are you hiding?

Just one of those things that makes you want to say hmmmmmmm.

But I am sure you will twist this as you do every time someone asks you a question.

So have a nice day anyways.

Don

Rules of thumb are great if they specifically apply to your equipment and your way of operating. You can no more use someone else rules of thumb than you could their specific pre-fire plans!!

[P.P.]

LHS,

I would have to say it is a pumping challenge not a nozzle challenge.

I would also have to say that you have a great talent for interpreting things a certian way to support your views or to knock others. I guess that talent comes from being an Editor.

It would be nice if one day your comments throughout thest fourms would open up to the fact that you are not always right regardless of how you twist things.

I try to look at these fourm topics kind of like going to the grocery store. I get what I can use and leave what I don't need or don't like at the store. I can even do so without attacking the store manager for selling something I don't like.

Take a chill pill and realize, you are only attacking KEA because he sells a nozzle that you simply don't like.

Before you attack me, like I said in my previous post, I sell nozzles to include the 3 major brands in the US.

Stay Safe!

P.P.

[DD]

I know that this post isn't about friction loss. Since the TFT issue has risen, I looked at the back issues of Fire Rescue Magazine. Larry H. Stevens is the Editor of that magazine. I only found advertisements by TFT. There was none by Akron or Elkhart, why? Also why does he spend so much time on the forum that FIREHOUSE MAGAZINE operates, when he has his own magazine and forum to present his ideas. I have read a most of his articles and respect many of his ideas. I just don't understand his hardon for the new kid on the block. If I were the guys at FIREHOUSE MAGAZINE, I would shut down his access to posting on this forum. By the way, I sell nothing, never have, and have never even used a Vindicator nozzle.

[KEA]

BFD1071: The following quote is from the Angus web page on the hose you asked about.

"5.2. Friction Loss: The friction loss characteristics of the hose at 100 psi residual pressure shall ensure that the hose meets the values detailed below: (Actual Flow Testing)."

Gpm/min (FL per 100’)
1 3/4"
100 150 200 230 240 250
9.6 21.8 38 50 54 58

What I found interesting with the above spec was that the FL numbers are based on 100-psi residual. This would mean that the end of the hose would have to have 100-psi at it which can be obtained by a 100-psi nozzle.

Your comment about the hose expanding may be right on, or why else have the spec written representing 100-psi residual for the FL numbers. I wonder what the difference in FL is for the same flows with a 50 or 75psi residual, or another words, a low pressure nozzle... REGARDLESS OF BRAND http://www.firehouse.com/interactive/boards/smile.gif

Do remember that the above factory tested numbers are done using straight and level ground. While trying to duplicate such resulsts you would need to also do so on straight level ground. (Straight meaning all 100' in a straight line)

Just passing on information and not promoting anything http://www.firehouse.com/interactive/boards/smile.gif

------------------
Kirk Allen
First Strike Technologies, Inc

[Matt]

I'm so glad to see that "editors" involved in other forms of news twist and turn things around to push their own views and agendas, and when someone says I have another way, well thats all wrong, and incorrect.

Larry must also be involved with the Courier Journal in Louisville.

I was thinking about subscribing to your magazine Larry, but after reading some of your posts here, I'll tell you just like I told the Courier. Not in my house!

Back to the topic at hand...

I have to agree it is not a nozzle problem. We use the very nozzles mentioned from Elkhart and they do exactly what is posted. If they don't get the right pressure to them because of more FL than expected, or preconnect FL not accounted for, then the problem is not a nozzle problem. Just as pointed out. Its a pumping problem! Why try and insinuate otherwise?

You are twisting KEA's post in an attempt to support your opinions, just as any good liberal, biased "editor" would do. You mix and match his statements to yours and it appears you are again simply off on another
personal campaign to knock anyone that dosen't sing your song.

I think you need to come to the conclusion that you are not the only guy on the block that can figure out how to, and correctly deliver an effective fire stream, using methods and equipment other than your own, and the equipment your magazine advertises.

Have a good day.

Matt.

[LHS']

I see, as long as you don't use that make of nozzle the rest of what I presented is accurate. So if the nozzle was not the issue would it still be a pumping issue?

[LHS']

Now a few facts,

The ELKHART Nozzles in question will flow water at pressures other than 70 psi or 100 psi. Seems a few folks left that out by mistake. Or was it? As will all the others on the market.

They flow according to the ELKHART catalog at 50 through 110 psi.

Of course, if someone out there can explain how an increase or decrease of 24 or 25 psi will not increase or decrease flow and NP equally I'd sure like to hear it.

Here is the by the book(IFSTA) illustration:

All figured with the Elkhart SM 20 nozzle in question 200 feet 1 ¾ inch hose.
EP 1 You'll note the magical 25 psi differce is built in there,
EP 125, NP 87 psi, 111 GPM, FL 19 psi
EP 150, NP 91 psi, 139 GPM, FL 29 psi
EP 175, NP 94 psi, 161 GPM, FL 40 psi

Where is the big increase in nozzle pressure we've been hearing about?

Examples of flows from the ELKHART CATELOG catalog: The numbers in brackets are what was posted.

{SM-20 100-PSI NP = 212-GPM}
{SM-20 75-PSI NP = 73-GPM}

HERE's WHAT THE OTHERS HID 80 PSI 87 GPM, 85 psi= 105, 90 PSI = 130 GPM, 95 PSI 170 GPM, 105 PSI 234 GPM, 110 PSI 245 GPM.

As you can see 24 psi higher or lower in FL will result in a very gradual reduction or increase in flow not this magical 25 psi drop at the tip, the nozzle doesn't work that way.

{SM-30 100-PSI NP = 300-GPM}
{SM-30 75-PSI NP = 112-GPM}

80 PSI 150 GPM, 190 PSI 226 GPM, 195 PSI 264 GPM, 110 PSI 324 GPM, 110 PSI 342 GPM

{SM-100 100-PSI NP = 1000-GPM}
{SM-100 80-PSI NP = 200-GPM}

85 PSI 300 GPM, 90 PSI 425 GPM, 95 PSI 650 GPM.

SO STOP SLAMMING ELKHART.

Now you can say I've got a thing for Elkharts.


[This message has been edited by LHS' (edited May 08, 2000).]

[KEA]

So there is no confusion:

SM-20 at 100-psi flows 212gpm
At 75 it flows 73-gpm
73-gpm is 66% less flow than 212-gpm. It would take 190% of the 73-gpm to reach a flow of 212-gpm.

SM-30 at 100-psi NP flows 300-gpm
At 75-psi it flows 112-gpm
112-gpm is 63% less flow than the 300-gpm. It would take 167% of the 112 to reach a flow of 300-gpm.


SM-100 at 100-psi NP flows 1000-gpm
At 75-psi it flows 200-gpm.
200-gpm is 80% less flow than the 1000-gpm.
It would take 400% of the 200-gpm flow to reach a flow of 1000-gpm.

I'm sorry if the math confused anyone. If you have any questions please e-mail them to the e-mail listed for my profile.

As far as a smooth bore or a fixed flow nozzle working the same way...SIMPLY NOT TRUE based on the published numbers.

Akron Assault #4825 flows 300-gpm at 100-psi NP. @ 75-psi it flows 260-gpm. That totals a whopping 13% less flow. How is 13% the same as 63%?

Elkhart #4000-20 flows 325-gpm at 100-psi NP. @ 75-psi NP it flows 289-gpm. That totals a whopping 11% less flow. How this is the same as an automatic is beyond my comprehension as well.

A 1" smooth bore flow 295-gpm at 100-psi NP.
at 75-psi it flows 257-gpm.
That totals a whopping 13% less flow.

Unless I missed something in math class, 11-13% is a whole lot less than 62% using the same 25-psi less nozzle pressure as the automatic.

FOR THE LAST TIME http://www.firehouse.com/interactive/boards/smile.gif THIS IS NOT A SLAM ON ANY NOZZLE BRAND OR TYPE. I WENT OUT OF MY WAY TO COMMEND ELKHART FOR TELLING US WHAT WE NEED TO KNOW.

What does all this mean? Simply that depending on what type of nozzle you have, you may find a BIG difference in your flow if you are off by 25-psi at the nozzle. Thats all! As long as you know what to pump to supply your nozzle things should work great!

Considering I have found as much as 120-psi of FL in preconnect plumbing and several thousand feet of bad hose over the years, I felt it was important to point out the importance of MEASURING your flows and not using a rule of thumb. The rule of thumb does not find problems. Test equipment does!

For the record...AGAIN...I promote and endorse combination nozzles. This is nothing new and for those who have had our class know this to be true.

I'm sorry that this has become such a mess. I stated that I would not respond to LHS, although when the implication is made that fixed gallanage nozzles and smooth bores do the same thing with less pressure as an automatic, I felt it necessary to simply post the facts right out of the book. The math is not my opinoin, its printed material from Elkhart and Akron.

I do not agree that posting public information on this sight is an attack on any company.

Elkhart makes a fine product as does Akron and TFT, but those products are only as good as the knowledge behind them to make them operate properly. Just as is the case with our product.

Larry, for what its worth, please try to have a constructive dialog instead of a destructive one. I am not your enemy!

------------------
Kirk Allen
First Strike Technologies, Inc

[This message has been edited by KEA (edited May 08, 2000).]

[S. Cook]

After wading through all these posts, I'm still trying to figure out how "rule of thumbing" roughly 25psi more (not less) than what's needed is a bad thing and will result in less water.

[mongofire_99]

Angus says their 1 3/4" hi combat will have these FLs at these gpms per 100'

FL GPM
9.6 100
21.8 150
38 200
50 230
54 240
58 250

Ponn is supposed to have these FLs at these gpms per 100'

FL GPM
16 150
20 180
25 200
29 220
30 240

With either brand you double the FL numbers and add 100psi for the nozzle. Except at the flows less than 140gpm with 100psi fogs, all of them give you more gpms out than psi in.

Run all the numbers in your head, write them down and add them up, use your fingers and toes or a calculator. No matter how you work it with a 100psi nozzle and 200' of 1 3/4", for flows at or over 140gpm, 1psi in you get at least 1gpm out. Use a 75psi LP nozzle and it will increase. Use a 50psi LP and it will increase. Use a smoothy and it will increase 1psi = more than 2gpm. Even with a vindicator 1psi = more than 1gpm.

KEA and LHS both endorse the best way, a pump chart made by using a flow meter. There is a way to do it for fogs with a pitot and a smooth bore but I forgot excatly how. Get your flow and add enough to make it to the nozzles operating psi. If you use a 15/16 and flow 50psi for 185gpm, add 50psi for the 100psi fog to hit 185, add 25psi for the 75psi LP or something like that.

Fyredup takes it a good step further and marks the guages at the desired flow once it's figured.

One more thing. My issue of Firehouse arrived today. Did anyone else notice that there are no nozzle ads in it? I guess if we follow one comment to its logical conclusion we'd determine that Firehouse does not endorse the use of nozzles.

------------------

[This message has been edited by mongofire_99 (edited May 09, 2000).]

[This message has been edited by mongofire_99 (edited May 09, 2000).]

[FyredUp]

LHS,

If someone asks you a question, directly, why do you not answer it? Plain and simple here it is again for you.

How can you out of one side of your face accuse me of hiding and then out of the other side of your face not post an e-mail address for your self?

Once again, for all of the time I have been registered on these forums my e-mail address has been available to anyone who wanted to know what it is. Why isn't yours?

To be honest Larry I don't expect you to respond. You already have chosen to skirt this and totally ignore the question once on this forum.

Another question for you Larry. How is directly stating what Elkhart themselves says about the capability of their nozzles slamming them? I commend Elkhart for putting this info in their catalog. Perhaps they want a more informed consumer.

Don

Question for all of you? If you take the time to really flow test your hose and nozzles and create a pump chart, why do you need rules of thumb?

[LHS']

Don,

Why does Firehouse give an option to post or not post an email? I chose to take it. What difference does it make. YOu know who I am, where I live etc. What do you want? Why do they no longer chose to post IP addresses? Why do they give a choice to post your FD or address?

This is a forum, got something to say, say it.

You chose to post two flow and pressure ranges to support your point.

I simply replied to a 24 psi mistake in overpumping using our rule of thumb. That then became a 25 psi reduction in NP. It is impossible. You then post their NP flow chart. The reader could get the idea a reduction in EP would be an equal reduction in NP.

If you want a 25 psi difference at the nozzle in the example given...you know pumping 250 psi to get 250 gpm 1 psi equals 1 gpm but it was pointed out the rule of thumb was all wrong by being 24 psi too high.

The math to get a 25 psi drop with the Elkhart tip would result in a EP of not 226 or 250 psi BUT 91 psi that is right 91 psi(figured NP 75 + FL of 8 + 8)that certainly isn't a 24 or a 25 psi reduction or increase that is a mere 135 psi. Does anyone realy pump that low?

So yeah, if you make a 135 psi mistake in your engine pressure you'll have less flow because the nozzle will drop 25 psi in NP. With the average EP in the US in the 150 psi range, certainly something we can call a rule of thumb all will be well.

Is that the point ya'll are trying to make?

Ok that was an automatic. Let's do the same to a bunch of other nozzles let's drop them 25 psi at the tip, with a vindicator EP would be a negative, with a smooth bore the EP would be a negative, with a fixed flow tip EP would be a negative possibly as high as 25 psi.


Yeah we have to look out for those sudden 25 psi drops in NP they can kill you. No nozzle will protect you from a lousy pump operator.

[LHS']

Don

Please don’t pat yourself on the back, you don’t state in your profile where you are from, fd or city.

//Question for all of you? If you take the time to really flow test your hose and nozzles and create a pump chart, why do you need rules of thumb?//

Why know anything other than how to engage the pump and throttle up? Why not just pump 150 psi all the time? Why should anyone know hydraulics? Why not use restricting plates pre-set for all the lines on the rig and always pump one pressure? Ever ask a rig what they are pumping? How would you know if they were close? You know 150 gpm through a 300 foot 1” line, what is the PDP? Is it possible there are some things the pump charts won’t or don’t calculate? Oh let’s see, 7500 foot 5” lay what is the flow? Dual 4000 foot 3 inch lines, what do I need to pump to get 250 gpm? Four 3” lines into a Mack Aerialscope, we don’t own one but a department within a hundred miles does. What is the required entry pressure to supply 1000 gpm from a SB tip on the aerialscope? One 3 inch line 500 feet supplying a gated wye, what do you pump?

I ask why not? Why does a pilot use a check list? Didn’t they go to school? The more you know the better is my answer.

The following is a portion of our pump charts

Pump Chart

Nozzles GPM NP FL 50' 100'150'

60 100 55 125 155 (180)
1" fog 100 100 155 (180) 260 335
125 100 230 215 330 460
150 45 310 200 355 570

Mixed line 180 45 100 95 145 195
1” and 2”

CAF's LINES -------- (105 psi) ---------

3" 750 100 120 160 220 (280)
BOMB LINE 2½” 500 100 128 155 178 210
Cellar Tip 480 100 55 128 155 178

500 100 -- ------(115 psi)
DECK GUNS 1000 100 -- -------120 psi
2000 100 -- -------160 psi

500 100 -- -------135 psi
AERIAL LADDER 1000 100 -- ------(140 psi)
2000 100 -- -------175 psi
Rear 5" Inlet 1000 100 5 170 175 180

Gated wye 1 ¾”/3”300 100 9 155 159 164

Aerialscope 1000 212 7 215 219 224

Highrise 1000 185 10 190 195 200
20 story 300 225 3 227 228 230

FIRE: Charge one 5". Pump 150 psi.
Make sure the post indicator valve
is open.
SPRINKLERS
NO FIRE: Connect but do not charge line. If gong sounds or if wall drain
flows tell I.C. you have a water
flow indication, charge line.

RELAYS(pump 185 psi) GPM
500' 600' 700' 800' 900' 1000'
One 5" 2270 2070 1915 1790 1685 1600
Two 5" 3000 3000 3000 3000 3000 3000

1500' 1600' 1700' 1800' 2000' 2500' 3000'
1x5"1300 1260 1220 1185 1120 1000 910
2x5"2600 2520 2440 2370 2240 2000 1820

6000' 6500' 7000' 7500' 8000' 8500' 9000'
1x5"635 610 585 565 550 530 515
2x5" 1270 1220 1170 1130 1100 1060 1030

HYDRANT SUPPLY(36 psi) GPM
500' 600' 700' 800' 900' 1000' 1100'
1x5" 1045 950 880 820 775 730 695
2x5" 2090 1900 1760 1640 1550 1460 1390

1600' 1700' 1800' 2000' 2500' 3000' 3500'
1x5" 575 555 540 525 510 455 380
2x5" 1150 1100 1080 1050 1020 910 820

3 miles 3 rigs
EP 185 = 936 gpm

[FyredUp]

LHS,

Thank you for proving my point. You accuse me of hiding by not posting where I am from. Yet you express your right to optionally not put your e-mail address on this forum. Why can't I express my right to not list my state without being accused of hiding by you? Can you spell HYPOCRITE?

I hide from no one. If it is essential for people to know where I live I tell them when they e-mail me. I have shared that information with many people, as well as have enjoyed many e-mail exchanges and phone conversations with people who want to share ideas but prefer not to be attacked or ridiculed on the forums.

Don

[KEA]

So there is no confusion on the rules regarding these forums I took the liberty of copying part of them to save time for all.

A couple of rules that all agreed to when registering is as follows:

"Representatives or associates of manufactuers will not be permitted to post messages that directly promote their products or harm the reputation of another product or manufactuer."

"All commercial related representatives or associates MUST identify themselves as such within EACH post. "

"To register for the forums, you must have a valid e-mail address that is available to other members and your name, organization and rank must be posted."

Just passing on the info!

Lets keep it clean http://www.firehouse.com/interactive/boards/smile.gif


------------------
Kirk Allen
First Strike Technologies, Inc

[This message has been edited by KEA (edited May 09, 2000).]

[wv-engineer]

Their is nothing on this page about the original posting, just people cutting each other on little things!!!

First the Elkhart example is completly off.
-it is an automatic, as you change the NP, the baffle opening is changing.
- the Elkhart example was talking about NP Larry was talking about EP, completely different especially with "auto's"
- to get the differances in flows described the EP would change by over 100psi, WAY MORE than 24 psi.

Second the 24 psi difference.
- Anyone can change the NP by 24 psi just by how the hose is stretched.
- nice and straight will be a high NP
- a few turns in a house no strong kinks around 100 NP
- speghatti mess low NP

Now for the original posting "Rule of Thumb"
IF you want to be an Engineer, learn hydraulics and how your pump(s) work.
If you want to be a "knob turner" be a cook.

The flow tests are great if you have only one type of hose. All the depts. I have been to have dozens of brands of many ages.

Hydraulic formulas are a great average of the different brands, different stretches to get a workable NP.

IF you would like some information on books to get started e-mail me, there are a couple of good college level fire engineering books also if you want to go real in-depth on hydrualics.

Being a Driver/Operator is very exciting and challenging position, and you can be the person that firefighters want to be in the driver seat when the sh#t hits the fan, if you are an engineer and NOT a "knob turner". So take the time and learn, and practice.

Once you understand what you are doing and how you operate comfortablely, make your own pump chart that makes your job eazier for you.

[FyredUp]

wv-engineer,

You are correct in saying this post has gone way off track from the original topic. I have responded to that topic on here and gave my ideas and opinions.

The reason that these posts always degrade to this is because of personalities who set standards for others they don't comply with themselves. If 24 gpm's don't matter here, why did they matter so much on other posts? If 10 or 20 or more psi don't matter here why are others questioned repeatedly in other posts about those same pressure drops? Whether you choose to believe it or not Elkhart states those numbers in their own catalog. Why do that if it isn't right?

It is simply amazing that people can't discuss a topic on here without being attacked or even worse ridiculed by personalities that won't ever answer a direct question that they want answers to. Go back to several posts regarding either nozzles, friction loss, hose, relief valve settings, apparatus or any number of others and see what happens when a certain personality enters the forum.

These forums can be a useful tool for advancing knowledge. But in order for that to happen people have to be free to express opinions without the fear of being set upon by those with other ideas or agendas to push. As I have said several times on these forums, I don't manufacture, sell, or distribute any fire equipment for any manufacturer. Never have. My reason for being here is to learn and share what knowledge I may have with others.

Take care and stay safe,

Don

[ADSN/WFLD]

Let's get back to the original topic, In IL the literature in the FAE course encourages you to test your hose, (just use good equipment and calibrate it prior to your tests) and run several tests on several days to get a good sample. If your department has several different brands and ages of hose test each, if some hose is grossly off try not to use it (I know that's not always possible). And don't forget the FL in your preconnect piping, you may be supprised. You need a good idea what your FL is, especially with automatics

Stay safe and good luck

[KEA]

ADSN/WFLD: Great Point!

Just recently we tested a pre-connect that had 35-psi FL for 200-gpm. Under their SOP they were only flowing 130-gpm, not the expected 200-gpm.

Another test of 150' of 1 3/4" hose and a low-pressure (75-psi)automatic nozzle being used as a high rise pack revieled a flow of a whoping 84-gpm, not the expected 200-gpm the salesperson told them they would get.

NO THIS WAS NOT A NOZZLE PROBLEM! http://www.firehouse.com/interactive/boards/smile.gif

Turns out the hose was the problem this time!

As I continue to state, test your equipment with flowmeters & pressure gauges and know what it does!

If you have a rule of thumb you promote, please ensure that when sharing it, it is for the same size hose bieng discussed! A 2" hose rule of thumb does not work for those asking about 1 3/4" hose!




------------------
Kirk Allen
First Strike Technologies, Inc