It's not about gender

[the-fireman]

Lets keep it simple,

This is not about who can and who can't do the job.

It comes down to reach down tactics.

Is it fair to reach down past someone that scored higher just to reach a quota?

Keep in mind that the person that got reached over didn't just lose out on a job, they lost out on a career.

This is not a race or gender issue, it's an equal rights for all issue!


the-fireman

[Quint1Medic]

First off, I'm vaguely suspicious of someone who appears under a brand-new ID with a chickenpoop email address to post something that's potentially inflammatory . How 'bout you stick your neck out and speak your mind with your name attached?

Second off - I agree with you. This is NOT the job to hire people who can't perform the job, simply because of their second X chromosome or their skin color. I don't want some itty-bitty lightweight trying to drag me out of a building if I'm hurt.

Thirdly - back in the good ol' days, was there never a single white boy who failed to get a job even though he was qualified or came in high on the test - simply because his daddy and his uncles and his grandaddy weren't firefighters? It wasn't fair to him, either. The world changes, nothing's ever fair, and if you actually take the time to read the stuff in the posts on this topic, you'll find out that 99% of the women on this job feel the same way I do.

[Quint1Medic]

This whole concept really sticks in my craw...is there ANY chance that someday, somewhere, someone will look at me and say, "They hired her because she was a good candidate," not "They hired her 'cause she's female."

I am 5'10", in good physical condition, I'm a paramedic, and I have a great job history with wonderful references from everyone I've worked for-other than the ones that're in jail-and from people in the department that hired me. I came in in the top five in the written test and passed the physical agility with no problem. Why is it that the *only* thing people see when they look at me in relation to my job is my gender?

It reminds me of recently, when those Philly police officers got filmed beating the bejeebers out of the black guy on the ground. Everyone's up in arms about police brutality, but it's been officially declared "not racially motivated"-simply because there were several black officers involved. That reasoning escapes me completely. It's a mob mentality either way, isn't it? Evidently if the mob is lily-white, it's automatically racially motivated. I guess the Philly PD was just "lucky" there were black officers present to prevent them from being speared with allegations of hate crimes on top of the brutality charges.

I guess what I'm saying is, consider how you look at the situation, and try not to get bogged down in one little detail.

[This message has been edited by Quint1Medic (edited July 22, 2000).]

[Speedi120]

Quint, I can't say that I have experience with the bias of firemen. I can say that I have heard a few opinions though. But I can tell you that it does not matter what position you hold. Some men never think you are smart enough, or good enough to do "their" jobs. I am a paralegal. Part of one of the biggest "Good ol Boys" systems in the world. However, I think that it is women like you that make good role models for the women of tomorrow. It is obvious from your post that you are not only intelligent, well spoken, but obviously you know how to do your job.

[This message has been edited by Speedi120 (edited July 24, 2000).]

[Quint1Medic]

Actually, the only problem I really have with "fireman" is the *way* he posted his thoughts. Like I said, I agree! Still, ninety-nine percent of ALL the trouble I've had at work has been caused by lack of communication. Either they're scared to bring something up, or they don't know what to say, so they shoot in the dark and miss. I know it's got to be like walking a minefield for these guys. Either they can talk to me without worrying, or I'm a bitch out to make an example of them, and they have no real way of knowing which it is initially, without sticking their necks out.

I really don't have that much trouble at work - all the guys I work with know me now, and I don't think they feel like I shouldn't have my job. Besides, *I* know I deserved my job http://www.firehouse.com/interactive/boards/smile.gif They can tell off-color jokes or say naughty words and I'm not going to run to the chief. In fact, I wish they'd relax more, but that's been hampered by administrative types that have scared them to death.

[JMP17]

I feel if you can do the job, more power to you Sister! Theres people getting jumped over for all kinds of reasons and many alot worse than E.O.s, read my post in the General FF. forum " Tell us about it" it includes one of our Sisters I "thank GOD for"
And yes I a male! and I'll include my name(to keep all happy).
Jim Preston, FF./NREMT-B

GOD bless, Stay safe & Take care of each other!!!!

[summermist21FD]

ughh
i dont understand
how come not everyone complains about girls going up in space, and being astronauts
but still people complain about us females being firefighters.
i always found that weird

[ChicagoFF]

ughh
i dont understand
how come not everyone complains about girls going up in space, and being astronauts
but still people complain about us females being firefighters.
i always found that weird
Because in todays world of lowered standards no one trusts that the woman next to them has passed the same physical standards as the guys. If it is determined that a man needs to be able to perform to a certain level to safely do this job, why should there be a lower standard for women??? If you don't see the problem with this then you have b****** issues than worrying about astronauts. Pull your head out of the sand and take a look around before you ask questions who's answers are obvious to 90% of people.

[PFDTruck18]

exactly right

[mcfd45]

Yeah what he said
J

[doublej986]

Lets keep it simple,

This is not about who can and who can't do the job.

It comes down to reach down tactics.

Is it fair to reach down past someone that scored higher just to reach a quota?

Keep in mind that the person that got reached over didn't just lose out on a job, they lost out on a career.

This is not a race or gender issue, it's an equal rights for all issue!


the-fireman

I have to agree with you there. Too many times, someone is passed over because they aren't the right sex, race, color, whatever. If you are going to hire one person and two people apply, and both have the same qualifications, skills and experience then you have a real problem on who to choose. But, if one applicant is more qualified than the other, they should be the one who gets the job, whether that person is a man or woman. I have a friend who worked for a mjor shipping company. He busted his butt everyday, showed up everyday. The model employee. One day, there was a promotion for supervisor. It came down to him and one other guy. The other guy was lazy, always late, never wanted to do more than what was expected of him. Guess who got the promotion? I'll give you a hint. My friend is white and the other guy was black. Too many times good people are overlooked to fill a quota. It's not right. The decision should be made based on skill, education, experience not the color of skin or by sex.

[baileydonk]

ughh
i dont understand
how come not everyone complains about girls going up in space, and being astronauts
but still people complain about us females being firefighters.
i always found that weird

I gaurantee that there are such complaints on astronaut forums, if "astronaut school" or whatever they have uses quotas to let people in. This is a firefighter forum, so we argue about firefighters, not astronauts - go figure. :)

[BackstepFF]

“I am 5'10", in good physical condition, I'm a paramedic, and I have a great job history with wonderful references from everyone I've worked for-other than the ones that're in jail-and from people in the department that hired me. I came in in the top five in the written test and passed the physical agility with no problem.”
No one doubts that you’re intelligent, or articulate, or a nice person, or that you have good work habits; no issues there. You say you’re in good physical condition. Maybe, but compared to who and as measured by what? Being a paramedic doesn’t help one bit when it’s your job to carry the standpipe pack up 10 flights of stairs, carry 70 lbs of equipment up the aerial to the roof, handle the nozzle on a 2 ½ inch hoseline, or drag an unconscious 200 lb. victim out of a burning apartment. In a perfect world, paramedics wouldn’t even be in the fire service. EMS is closer to nursing than firefighting. Make no mistake, being a paramedic in no way makes you a better firefighter. They are two different jobs that just happen to sometimes be performed by the same person.
“Why is it that the *only* thing people see when they look at me in relation to my job is my gender?”
Because *most* of the women we have seen in this job can’t hack it physically, even in the beginning of their careers. How many women do you know who have done twenty years in busy engines or trucks, doing the hands-on grunt work of putting out fires? In my experience, it has been zero. The majority of them either go to EMS, find a cozy office job, quit, or retire on disability because they got hurt.

The real, undeniable issue is biology; in general, women are smaller and weaker relative to men. Men were designed to hunt and lift and carry heavy things. Women were biologically designed to have babies and raise children. Nothing can change that. Why don’t women play in the NFL? Because it’s all about performance; only the best performing athletes make the cut. Even the best women can only perform at a level of an average to below average man. Why waste effort on training someone who will perform the job marginally at best?

Was your physical agility test competitive with your score based on completion time, or was it pass/fail with an arbitrary cut-off? The latter is quite simply a contrived test designed to allow a percentage of women to “pass”. Most FD physical agility tests are horrendously dumbed-down these days. Agility tests that do not accurately depict the rigors of the job are dangerous for everybody – firefighters, and the public.

Tons of money is being spent on getting women on the job just to satisfy today’s society’s demand for “diversity”. One of the dirty little secrets in this job is it pays to go along; it doesn’t pay to make waves. Heaven help the poor officer who has the courage to tell the truth and say, “but Chief, she can’t do the job.” In our modern day version of the witch hunt, he will be accused of sexual harassment and punished in some way either formally or informally. On the other hand, it’s amazing how many others will recite exactly what the chief wants to hear, whether they believe it or not, to advance their position.

The problem is, in some fire departments these days, you might not be called on to go to too many fires so the weaknesses aren’t immediately evident. And let’s face it, a lot of people in this job have a finely tuned instinct for self-preservation. It’s not too hard to find a slow place to hide, nor is it unheard of for some folks to hang back a little at fires, after all someone will usually do your job as well as theirs when the heat is on.

Fire Chiefs answer to politicians and politicians would sell their soul for a vote. And we wonder why the FD so often gets caught up in silly, counter-productive nonsense. Firemen, on the other hand, simply want to do our job, we want to do it effectively, and we want to do it safely. Our job is to put out fire and rescue the citizens we serve. In a dangerous, physically demanding profession we should be focused solely on hiring the best applicant, regardless of race, sex, color or creed. That means having a realistic, competitive physical agility test not a watered down, pass/fail, joke of a test.

[spidermann]

Most women that are hired on departments are window dressing. The few women that can really do the job get screwed by the one's that the human rescource hired to boost up the numbers. It's time to get real. This job is about strenght and mechanical reasoning. Both are very hard for females. Of course some can do it. It's the same with men. Not all are capable. You'll never see a 55 yrld woman pulling hose or climbing a ladder. Just won't happen. A complete crew of female firefighter, ya right.

[dustinlevengood]

I know during our academy I was one of the biggest guys at 6'5 300 lbs, i'm big but can do anything and work all day so anyways my point is in all the rescue situations we tried to get the grils in the academy to rescue me in the ladder rescues they refused, in the denver drill one girl almost passed out while i was the dummy for just about everyone and noone else had much of a problem with it, and during regular rescue carries the girls couldn't move me more the 20-30 feet on a single 30 minute bottle, and both girls were the first to get picked up out of our academy. whats up with that?

[mcfd45]

I know during our academy I was one of the biggest guys at 6'5 300 lbs, i'm big but can do anything and work all day so anyways my point is in all the rescue situations we tried to get the grils in the academy to rescue me in the ladder rescues they refused, in the denver drill one girl almost passed out while i was the dummy for just about everyone and noone else had much of a problem with it, and during regular rescue carries the girls couldn't move me more the 20-30 feet on a single 30 minute bottle, and both girls were the first to get picked up out of our academy. whats up with that?
And you know what? Nowadays more people are over 200 lbs. So if you can't rescue a person over 200 then you shouldn't be on a department.
J

[ChicagoFF]

No one doubts that you’re intelligent, or articulate, or a nice person, or that you have good work habits; no issues there. You say you’re in good physical condition. Maybe, but compared to who and as measured by what? Being a paramedic doesn’t help one bit when it’s your job to carry the standpipe pack up 10 flights of stairs, carry 70 lbs of equipment up the aerial to the roof, handle the nozzle on a 2 ½ inch hoseline, or drag an unconscious 200 lb. victim out of a burning apartment. In a perfect world, paramedics wouldn’t even be in the fire service. EMS is closer to nursing than firefighting. Make no mistake, being a paramedic in no way makes you a better firefighter. They are two different jobs that just happen to sometimes be performed by the same person.

Because *most* of the women we have seen in this job can’t hack it physically, even in the beginning of their careers. How many women do you know who have done twenty years in busy engines or trucks, doing the hands-on grunt work of putting out fires? In my experience, it has been zero. The majority of them either go to EMS, find a cozy office job, quit, or retire on disability because they got hurt.

The real, undeniable issue is biology; in general, women are smaller and weaker relative to men. Men were designed to hunt and lift and carry heavy things. Women were biologically designed to have babies and raise children. Nothing can change that. Why don’t women play in the NFL? Because it’s all about performance; only the best performing athletes make the cut. Even the best women can only perform at a level of an average to below average man. Why waste effort on training someone who will perform the job marginally at best?

Was your physical agility test competitive with your score based on completion time, or was it pass/fail with an arbitrary cut-off? The latter is quite simply a contrived test designed to allow a percentage of women to “pass”. Most FD physical agility tests are horrendously dumbed-down these days. Agility tests that do not accurately depict the rigors of the job are dangerous for everybody – firefighters, and the public.

Tons of money is being spent on getting women on the job just to satisfy today’s society’s demand for “diversity”. One of the dirty little secrets in this job is it pays to go along; it doesn’t pay to make waves. Heaven help the poor officer who has the courage to tell the truth and say, “but Chief, she can’t do the job.” In our modern day version of the witch hunt, he will be accused of sexual harassment and punished in some way either formally or informally. On the other hand, it’s amazing how many others will recite exactly what the chief wants to hear, whether they believe it or not, to advance their position.

The problem is, in some fire departments these days, you might not be called on to go to too many fires so the weaknesses aren’t immediately evident. And let’s face it, a lot of people in this job have a finely tuned instinct for self-preservation. It’s not too hard to find a slow place to hide, nor is it unheard of for some folks to hang back a little at fires, after all someone will usually do your job as well as theirs when the heat is on.

Fire Chiefs answer to politicians and politicians would sell their soul for a vote. And we wonder why the FD so often gets caught up in silly, counter-productive nonsense. Firemen, on the other hand, simply want to do our job, we want to do it effectively, and we want to do it safely. Our job is to put out fire and rescue the citizens we serve. In a dangerous, physically demanding profession we should be focused solely on hiring the best applicant, regardless of race, sex, color or creed. That means having a realistic, competitive physical agility test not a watered down, pass/fail, joke of a test.
I couldn't have put it better myself. Nice work. No doubt you will be fried for telling the truth.

[LaFireEducator]

You guys sorta remind me of that Geico commercial with the Caveman ....

[FFFRED]

You guys sorta remind me of that Geico commercial with the Caveman ....


How so? Do tell?

FTM-PTB

[spidermann]

You guys sorta remind me of that Geico commercial with the Caveman ....

Because I call them as I see them?

[BackstepFF]

You guys sorta remind me of that Geico commercial with the Caveman ....
Nice. Put a lot of thought into that one didja? Well, I guess when you can't argue the facts...

[kurtj36]

I myself am tired of being passed over for full time firefighting jobs because I am guilty of three things, I'm not young, not a woman or a minority. I am a former special forces medic, combat veteran, plus 17 years in the fire and ems service. Yet to this day I am still told that is not good enough, I am the wrong age, wrong sex, and not a minority. I'll run circles around young candidates. Oh another thing, I thought age limitations were against the law? and yet some of these cities still impose them?
I encourage each and every one of you who are in the same boat as I am to write you elected officials, tell them enough is enough!!

[MamaLieut]

I'm thinking not so much the geico caveman, as the SNL "Unforzen Caveman Lawyer" skit... "I am but an unfrozen caveman firefighter, and I do not udnertsand your cruel, harsh ways".

Seriously, posts like these make me so incredibly grateful to work with a team NOT stuck in the dinosaur days. I don't believe in lowering standards either-- get over yourselves!

At least where I am, the few women that make it as FFs are equally as competent, motivated, and physcially capable as the guys-- perhaps more so. It's not a guy vs. gal thing, though-- I play as part of a team. If you can't grasp the team concept, you have no business being on a fireground to begin with.
:)

[ChicagoFF]

At least where I am, the few women that make it as FFs are equally as competent, motivated, and physcially capable as the guys-- perhaps more so. It's not a guy vs. gal thing, though-- I play as part of a team. If you can't grasp the team concept, you have no business being on a fireground to begin with.
:)
I'd like to see this place where all the women on the fire department are more physically capable than the guys. And the team concept is fine, as long as I'm not dragging dead weight for the sake of someone feelings, political agenda, or worst of all "fairness". If you can't take an honest look around you and see what is happening to make it easy for women to get this job, then you are either stupid or so blinded by a desperate need to be equal that you can't see reality. I cant wait to see the day when a truck pulls up to a good working fire where there is serious truck work to be done and five women get off. There is no way the work gets done as fast (or even at all) as it would with a five man truck. You are either a lieutenant in Fantasy Land or East Germany, those being the only two places on earth where those two trucks have the possibility of being equal.

[FFFRED]

I'm thinking not so much the geico caveman, as the SNL "Unforzen Caveman Lawyer" skit... "I am but an unfrozen caveman firefighter, and I do not udnertsand your cruel, harsh ways".

Seriously, posts like these make me so incredibly grateful to work with a team NOT stuck in the dinosaur days. I don't believe in lowering standards either-- get over yourselves!

What is "dinosaur" about disagreing with politicans & bureaucrats who openly admit and claim that changes are made either in the written or physical exams expressly to hire more women (or minorities)?

I could careless if the top 1000 scorers on our next FF exam are all female native americans and Asian Men, so long as they all have passed a rigorous vetting process which includes a realistic physical agility exam and written based on real 12 grade level subjects and material. As long as they are the top legitimate scorers and aren't taken from a 1 in 3 list or anything like that I could careless who or what they are. However we all know today the exams are far from difficult and far from physically taxing.

Shouldn't we be looking to maintain an open fair comptetivive exam that is color and gender blind but only seeks to truely determine who is the smartest and most physically capable of performing the job and therefore establishing greater merit and fitness for the job? Why would anyone want to hire one race or gender over another? Isn't that racism, sexism or illegal discrimination? More over isn't it insulting to those groups that an exam needs to be made less difficult and less competitive to allow for these special interests to "compete"?

Isn't insulting that certain special interests can hold a city hostage by threatening lawsuits and consitantly claim the elected representatives have illegal biases against them and do so until they get their way?

Why should we be looking to bring back patronage, bias and preferential hiring that was the basis for the current civil service system in many states and cities today?

At least where I am, the few women that make it as FFs are equally as competent, motivated, and physcially capable as the guys-- perhaps more so. It's not a guy vs. gal thing, though--

I don't know anything about where you work...however in my dept and many others over the past 25-30 years have had their phsical and written civil service exams watered down and in some cases completely done away with by clueless judges who wanted to allow women the ability to pass rather than ask that all canidates meet the criteria set by the civil service commisions. They would rather lower the standards to allow women (and in turn less physically fit men as well) than to insist that persons look to improve themselves and achive something by earning it or even to just accept the fact that just as not everyone is meant to play in the NFL as a lineman, not everyone is meant to be a firefighter. There is nothing wrong with that...however their are too many who fail to accept genetics and nature.

You are right though...it isn't a guy vs. gal thing...it is a firefighters who are physically capable of performing the job vs. those who are incapable of doing so but are allowed on the job in the interests of avoiding lawsuits. It however is usually the women's groups who push opening and unremorsefully for lower physical standards! This not only allows women who don't measure up to get on to the job but also men of any color and shape who can't do the job either!

And a number of the ones who have gotten on have done nothing to help break the stigma of women in the fire service. Many know they can't be fired, they get re-cycled through accadmies, can't handle hoses, can't properly dismount a ladder, can't hump hose, can't carry the standpipe bag, can't step up on to the back step. Have much difficulty climbing ladders, throwing ladders, performing overhaul...etc. But they don't care...they know they are legally untouchable...at least around here.

It is these women who ruin it for the few women who have proven themselves able to perform and do the job they way it needs to be done.

Godforbid you accuse anyone of them as being incapable of performing the duties required of a firefighter...you are automaticly labled a sexist intollerant pig. Regardless of how true it might be that they haven't performed up to snuff. I've known men and women to make it into the accademy who just didn't have what it took to perform the job and would be jeapordizing their lives along with all the other members of the dept. and civilians they are sworn to protect if they were allowed to graduate and be assigned to a company in the field.

Certian groups however are usually not forced off the job or are afforded second chances because of fears of legal repercussions(as opposed to lets just say white or even black males.)...now I don't know anyone who finds this acceptable or doesn't feel this places many persons lives unneccessarily in danger so as to keep the EEO peace. As a taxpayer who is protected by the same fire dept I'm employed by...I find this as unacceptable. I want the most physically fit and intelligent firefighters we can get...regardless of how diverse they are or aren't....that is the most irrelevant issue I think I've ever heard before in regards to fire department hiring.

The woman who sued to get on our job to begin with, in court papers admitedly couldn't start a saw among other failings and the judge refused to allow her firing as to him it was obvious she was being discriminated against as if the saw somehow knew a woman or a man was trying to start it. :rolleyes:

Should we in turn have the NFL combine and the Standards for the NBA reduced so that persons of a different level of fitness or physical stature may compete? A handicap if you will like one found in Bowling and golf? This undoubtedly would allow for more diversification to the teams? Not sure what it would do in terms of quality of players and team though?

I play as part of a team. If you can't grasp the team concept, you have no business being on a fireground to begin with.
:)

I'm not sure what the hell that really has to do with the conversation...but I'll leave you with this. After every tour I want to go home to my wife and child and anyone (man or woman) who can't get the job done, can't fufill their duties as part of a "team" or gets in the way or lessens the chance of me doing so...is no "team player" and I have NO use for them whatsoever. They are no less an enemy than the fire itself. This is a very dangerous and deadly job and shouldn't be subject to some liberal social experiments that could cost people their lives...period.

FTM-PTB

[SarTheRRGurl316]

I myself am tired of being passed over for full time firefighting jobs because I am guilty of three things, I'm not young, not a woman or a minority. I am a former special forces medic, combat veteran, plus 17 years in the fire and ems service. Yet to this day I am still told that is not good enough, I am the wrong age, wrong sex, and not a minority. I'll run circles around young candidates. Oh another thing, I thought age limitations were against the law? and yet some of these cities still impose them?
I encourage each and every one of you who are in the same boat as I am to write you elected officials, tell them enough is enough!!

OH man, I am very sorry to hear this. My father went through almost the same thing as you are currently going through. First let be give a little back ground history. He was in the Army as a Helicopter Crew Chief, he was a firefighter and a Paramedic. When he was 35 with this background I just mentioned he applyed to the Louisville Fire Department and they said that he was too old. He almost went to court with the issue.

Now I have had some trouble applying for some firefighting positions presently. And I am very young, and a double minority (Black, and a woman), and I'm having trouble. I just think you have to be presistant, keep your head up and keep looking, if your determined enough something will come through.

[mcfd45]

A chain is only as strong as its weakest link. This is true with fire departments as well. If you are the weakest link you need to work on it. Generally women tend to be this weak link. goodbye.
J

[LaFireEducator]

So, I assume none of the firefighters who oppose women would oppose having every member of your department go through your idea of a realistic physical assessment each year, so that there are no "weak links" on any of your crews at any time?

Think real carefully on this, as I would wager to bet that there would be a fair number of older firefighters in some of your slower stations who would not pass and would not make retirement as they would have to be let go.

Consistancy..... sometimes it can come back to bite ya.

[spidermann]

I don't have a problem with physical testing at all. I encourage it as long as it's a job related test such as the cpat. everybody should be treated the same. I heard from an officer at work recently that a female firefighter didn't want to partcipate in a confined rescue drill because" you know, us women have bigger hips and it would be harder for me to enter the tank. I'll stay outside."
Never mind that she's a part of a crew whose duties are confined space rescue, and the fact she's over 50lbs over weight. She's also in here mid 20's.
Never mind though, we'll send in a MAN that's over 50 and already has done this drill.
The fact is if it's fair, there will less women in the fire service and the looney left can't stand that.

[FFFRED]

So, I assume none of the firefighters who oppose women would oppose having every member of your department go through your idea of a realistic physical assessment each year, so that there are no "weak links" on any of your crews at any time?

Think real carefully on this, as I would wager to bet that there would be a fair number of older firefighters in some of your slower stations who would not pass and would not make retirement as they would have to be let go.

Consistancy..... sometimes it can come back to bite ya.

Lets get one thing straight. No one opposes having women on the job. If we have a fair exam that truely evaulates the physical abilities of the canidates and the women can pass and score well enough to get hired...then get treated exactly like the males do in the accademy and aren't treated with kid gloves and allowed to slide through the academy or even repeat if you just don't feel like you are up to it.(as opposed to a documented injury) you will have no complaints from me.

Do you think we should adjust the NFL or NBA standards to allow persons of lesser strength or abilities or shorter in stature to be able to play...because the teams aren't diverse enough? After all it's only a game...not like the life and death situations we are dealing with daily...correct? :rolleyes:

But we both know in the world of disparate treatment and phony half-azz CPAT exams...that this won't happen anytime soon.

And secondly EVERY member of my department approximately every 1 1/2 years gets a full and comprehensive physical from our department doctors complete with lung, hearing, sight, cardio and step mill exam and is ruled either fit for duty or is placed on light duty. So yes...we already have such requirements and it wouldn't take long to find a firefighter who was incapable of performing his duties because it would show at the next fire. None of us wants to work with malingerers like you....man or woman...get that straight in your head before you fly off on your leftist tirade about "cavemen". :rolleyes: I want to see my family at the end of the tour and I'm sure that is the overriding concern of all the others who have objected to the idea of lowering standards to accomodate persons of certain genders.

Consistancy? Huh?....The only thing consistant around here is a consummate malingerer like yourself who apparently does everything to avoid anything the least bit dangerous by your own disgraceful accounts on these forums, who consistantly doesn't understand the unacceptable nature of being placed in life-threating situations with persons who don't posess the basic apptitude and physical strength and stamina to perform the duties of a firefighter. I suppose if you would respond to a fire and rather than stand outside and avoid anything dangerous like the plauge as you claim to do on a regular basis with your "style" of risk management and place your life into anothers hands and theirs into yours...you might...just might understand our disagreement regarding this subject.

FTM-PTB

Funny how your response completely avoided any conversation of lowered civil service standards, or bias in hiring that is targeted towards certain races or genders. Par for the course I suppose.

[LaFireEducator]

FFred .. Thanks for the personal attack. I enjoyed it. It's not worth responding to. It's amazing how well you seem to seem to know me. And yes, I do value the safety of myself and others I work with in situations where the potential gain is minimal and the risk is substantial. If you consider that malangering, that's fine.

I do not agree that those who are not capable should be placed on the job and I do not agree with lowering standards. I do not know how much your standards have been lowered but arond here they haven't been. However, physical strength is just one aspect of firefighting. Around here, the full-time departments have several women, and they seem to do just fine. We have 2 female volunteers which do the job quite nicely. Are they as physically strong as some of the men? Hell no, but in terms of endurance they seem to handle themselves ok, and when we need someone to get into tight spaces, guess who get the job? If you want to judge who can make a good firefighter by physical strength alone, that's fine. And maybe in NYC, that is more important than it is here, where we deal with primarily single story structures and the 2.5" is rarely pulled, even in our neighboring city departments. I am in a different world, and here in our world, we find that many women are as capable as the men (some even more so). My comments come from this world, not yours, and your reality may be different from mine.

CEPAT the perfect measuring stick? Maybe yes or maybe no, but it has seem to become the standard. Mayeb your CPAT has been watered down, but the CPAT used by the all-career departments around here fails 30% of the male canidates. Like it or not, it is what has been adopted because like it or not, there is a demand for diversity. Somehow law enforcement, who deal with life or death issues every day has adopted. Somehow the military has adopted. My only point is that the fire service has to accept it and adopt to it because it isn't going away. Maybe the old days were truly the good old days FFred, but guess what ... They ain't coming back. The reality is that in the name of diversity, you may not have the crews of the old days where everyone is a 6'3" 245 lb male. Be it a good thing or a bad thing, it's the reality and it's not going to change. How you adopt will be different from department to department. I am sorry if the situation has got that bad, but constantly complaining about it will not change it.

I am glad to see that FDNY has a dopted a physical fitness protocol. That is the type of consistancey that I was referring to.

[FFFRED]

FFred .. Thanks for the personal attack. I enjoyed it. It's not worth responding to. It's amazing how well you seem to seem to know me. And yes, I do value the safety of myself and others I work with in situations where the potential gain is minimal and the risk is substantial. If you consider that malangering, that's fine.

It's not a personall attack it is that I find it replusive that someone like you impersonates a firefighter and people in your community somehow equate persons like yourself with actual firefighters who would do everything they could to carry out their sworn duties. You will by your own accounts do everything NOT to place yourself in danger for others to the point of shirking ones duties and to most of the world that is diametricly opposed to the concept of firefighting. With every post you make..it becomes more and more clear...you have NOTHING in common with any fireman I've ever met or worked with.

I do not agree that those who are not capable should be placed on the job and I do not agree with lowering standards. I do not know how much your standards have been lowered but arond here they haven't been.

Is this going to be part 1 of where you contradict yourself as usuall? A judge ruled our physical was too rigorous and wouldn't allow women to pass...so where does that leave us? Apparently women couldn't compete on the same level as men physically. (just like the NFL and NBA) We have an open competitive exam that is open to all, and everyone has as much chance at passing as the next guy...but that wasn't good enough for some people.

However, physical strength is just one aspect of firefighting.

You are correct and we should be looking for those who can demonstrate the most merit for the job and a simple joke pass/fail exam doesn't do that...all it establishes is that you barely meet the physicall requirements of this job(which in reality the CPAT doesnt even do that.)

Around here, the full-time departments have several women, and they seem to do just fine. We have 2 female volunteers which do the job quite nicely. Are they as physically strong as some of the men? Hell no, but in terms of endurance they seem to handle themselves ok, and when we need someone to get into tight spaces, guess who get the job? If you want to judge who can make a good firefighter by physical strength alone, that's fine. And maybe in NYC, that is more important than it is here, where we deal with primarily single story structures and the 2.5" is rarely pulled, even in our neighboring city departments. I am in a different world, and here in our world, we find that many women are as capable as the men (some even more so). My comments come from this world, not yours, and your reality may be different from mine.

In the recent past we have lost 4 Brothers in the basements of cellars 1 or 2 story dwellings or buildings, Capt. Fowler L173, Fr. Sclafani L-103, Lt. Carpluk E-42, Fr. Reilly E-75.(RIP) It required every bit strength of the men who pulled them out...Both Capt. Fowler and Fr. Sclafani were large men and don't think for a second that endurance or motivation or good feelings were going to get those men out any faster. Strength plays a big part of this job regardless where you work...don't lie to yourself to make yourself feel better about it. It can happen in LA just as easy as NY.

CEPAT the perfect measuring stick? Maybe yes or maybe no, but it has seem to become the standard. Mayeb your CPAT has been watered down, but the CPAT used by the all-career departments around here fails 30% of the male canidates. Like it or not, it is what has been adopted because like it or not, there is a demand for diversity. Somehow law enforcement, who deal with life or death issues every day has adopted. Somehow the military has adopted. My only point is that the fire service has to accept it and adopt to it because it isn't going away. Maybe the old days were truly the good old days FFred, but guess what ... They ain't coming back. The reality is that in the name of diversity, you may not have the crews of the old days where everyone is a 6'3" 245 lb male. Be it a good thing or a bad thing, it's the reality and it's not going to change. How you adopt will be different from department to department. I am sorry if the situation has got that bad, but constantly complaining about it will not change it.


Ahh that must of been part two the follow through on your contradiction. :rolleyes:

First CPAT is a joke...carrying a saw 50 ft! Oh yeah that really must seperate the men from the boys... :rolleyes: And it does nothing to reward those who excell and can show they are more physically capable than the next person. A person who passes with 10.15 gets the same rank as someone with a 7:34...that is more liberal feel good BS.

As for complaining yes it will. I consistantly write to my elected representatives and the letters to the editors sections of the papers are filled with people who are outraged everytime some idiot is quoted in the paper calling for the lowering of physical standards to placate some womens or minority group that wants an easier path to becoming a firefighter. Anyone who has been to a good job in a tenement or lives in one doesn't want someone with lesser physical abilities comming for them...hell the reason so many people here understand what I'm saying around here is becaue most people in Ghettos who are at least in their 20s have probably lived through a fire or two and have had their lives placed in danger...which is more than we can say for you. I even know a few firemen who were saved by firemen as children.

There are liberals with their view and persons like me with my view and just because they are clammoring for a handout doesn't mean I have to sit by and let it happen. I disagree with lowering of standards and the defilement of the civil service system and I intend on making my views heard...just as these other people have made theirs heard. Just because they scream and whine more..doesn't make them right.

Besides I don't know that your analogy to the Millitary works as well as the combat units last time I checked don't allow women at all. I suppose if we wanted to emulate the Army we could put all 30 of our women in HQ, driving the Mask service units or Driving Chiefs around...but I imagine that would get quite a rebuke from the likes of you even though it would be along the lines of what the Military has done. :rolleyes:

Making ones voice heard is how this country works. And I for one am not going to sit by idlely and let this defilement of my job and the fire department that protects my family happen without a fight.

I am glad to see that FDNY has a dopted a physical fitness protocol. That is the type of consistancey that I was referring to.

Bull S@%$- You were hoping I or others would respond stating that we didn't need regular exams...go back and see how much sarcasm you filled it with.

FTM-PTB

[fireman4949]

It's not a personall attack it is that I find it replusive that someone like you impersonates a firefighter and people in your community somehow equate persons like yourself with actual firefighters who would do everything they could to carry out their sworn duties. You will by your own accounts do everything NOT to place yourself in danger for others to the point of shirking ones duties and to most of the world that is diametricly opposed to the concept of firefighting. With every post you make..it becomes more and more clear...you have NOTHING in common with any fireman I've ever met or worked with.

I[QUOTE] do not agree that those who are not capable should be placed on the job and I do not agree with lowering standards. I do not know how much your standards have been lowered but arond here they haven't been. [QUOTE]

Is this going to be part 1 of where you contradict yourself as usuall? A judge ruled our physical was too rigorous and wouldn't allow women to pass...so where does that leave us? Apparently women couldn't compete on the same level as men physically. (just like the NFL and NBA) We have an open competitive exam that is open to all, and everyone has as much chance at passing as the next guy...but that wasn't good enough for some people.



You are correct and we should be looking for those who can demonstrate the most merit for the job and a simple joke pass/fail exam doesn't do that...all it establishes is that you barely meet the physicall requirements of this job(which in reality the CPAT doesnt even do that.)



In the recent past we have lost 4 Brothers in the basements of cellars 1 or 2 story dwellings or buildings, Capt. Fowler L173, Fr. Sclafani L-103, Lt. Carpluk E-42, Fr. Reilly E-75.(RIP) It required every bit strength of the men who pulled them out...Both Capt. Fowler and Fr. Sclafani were large men and don't think for a second that endurance or motivation or good feelings were going to get those men out any faster. Strength plays a big part of this job regardless where you work...don't lie to yourself to make yourself feel better about it. It can happen in LA just as easy as NY.



First CPAT is a joke...carrying a saw 50 ft! Oh yeah that really must seperate the men from the boys... :rolleyes: And it does nothing to reward those who excell and can show they are more physically capable than the next person. A person who passes with 10.15 gets the same rank as someone with a 7:34...that is more liberal feel good BS.

As for complaining yes it will. I consistantly write to my elected representatives and the letters to the editors sections of the papers are filled with people who are outraged everytime some idiot is quoted in the paper calling for the lowering of physical standards to placate some womens or minority group that wants an easier path to becoming a firefighter. Anyone who has been to a good job in a tenement or lives in one doesn't want someone with lesser physical abilities comming for them...hell the reason so many people here understand what I'm saying around here is becaue most people in Ghettos who are at least in their 20s have probably lived through a fire or two and have had their lives placed in danger...which is more than we can say for you. I even know a few firemen who were saved by firemen as children.

There are liberals with their view and persons like me with my view and just because they are clammoring for a handout doesn't mean I have to sit by and let it happen. I disagree with lowering of standards and the defilement of the civil service system and I intend on making my views heard...just as these other people have made theirs heard. Just because they scream and whine more..doesn't make them right.

Besides I don't know that your analogy to the Millitary works as well as the combat units last time I checked don't allow women at all. I suppose if we wanted to emulate the Army we could put all 30 of our women in HQ, driving the Mask service units or Driving Chiefs around...but I imagine that would get quite a rebuke from the likes of you even though it would be along the lines of what the Military has done. :rolleyes:

Making ones voice heard is how this country works. And I for one am not going to sit by idlely and let this defilement of my job and the fire department that protects my family happen without a fight.



Bull S@%$- You were hoping I or others would respond stating that we didn't need regular exams...go back and see how much sarcasm you filled it with.

FTM-PTB

Amen Brother!!!!! ;)

[BackstepFF]

So, I assume none of the firefighters who oppose women would oppose having every member of your department go through your idea of a realistic physical assessment each year, so that there are no "weak links" on any of your crews at any time?

Think real carefully on this, as I would wager to bet that there would be a fair number of older firefighters in some of your slower stations who would not pass and would not make retirement as they would have to be let go.

This is what I call the “pick on the fat guy” argument. It doesn’t hold water and here’s why: In essence what you’re saying is that some men are out of shape so why shouldn’t there be (less capable) women on the job. That’s like saying, “Well, the brakes are shot on my car so I’m not going to bother changing the oil.” You’re neglecting one problem and then adding another. If your department has a problem with males who aren’t fit for duty it should tackle that issue, not compound it by lowering the physical standards to include women.

The same applies to your “older firefighter” comment. In my department, all firefighters over the age of 40 take a complete physical every year including a cardiovascular stress test (Bruce Protocol) with ECG and blood pressure monitoring. If you fail your physical you no longer ride fire trucks. Period.

Since you brought up aging, let’s look at that: Say we hire a guy - call him Joe - who is 21 yrs of age; is 6 foot,185 lbs. and highly physically fit as determined by a realistic, competitive agility test. Fast forward 26 years: he’s now 47, has raised three kids and has experienced some natural physiologic decline but still performs well. Now contrast with Susie – we hire her at 21 yrs of age; she is 5’2, 115 lbs. and of average fitness as determined by a pass/fail, less rigorous agility test than the one Joe finished in the top 10% of. NOW fast forward 26 years. Susie has had three kids, and is 47 yrs of age. What should we realistically expect her level of performance to be compared to Joe’s?

Consistancy..... sometimes it can come back to bite ya.

[CarolinaFF]

I would just like to answer the original question. No, the standard for employment should be the same for everyone (no matter the sex, color, age, race).
Because this is a very dangerous job everyone should be able to perform their job and as far as females I could careless what sex the person next to me is, as long as they are able to do their part.
I only know of couple female FF (Their a few female ff in this area) but the ones that I seen in action do truly deserve their job, they work just as hard for it as the men they serve with did. But I do know one very well and she can perform as well as any body else. She a career FF with many years of service, she has educated herself by going to every class you can think of to make her a better FF and will drag any man into or out of any fire that I could, she does not want to hear any talk about (O look it a female, she tell very quick, that she a FF for the 24 hours and female, mother of three and a wife the other 48 hours) She to has the same desire as I do, finish her tour and go home to her family. If their was more like in the fire service then I don’t believe we would be writing in this post.

[BackstepFF]

LAFireEducator: FFFRED did an outstanding job of systematically dismantling your flawed and contradictory arguments. Nothing more really needs to be said, but I would like to add my 2¢ worth nonetheless.
I do not agree that those who are not capable should be placed on the job and I do not agree with lowering standards. It’s amazing how everyone says they don’t agree with lowering standards but when "diversity" becomes the overriding concern that is inevitably what happens. BTW, Do volunteers even take a physical agility test?
However, physical strength is just one aspect of firefighting."Just one aspect of firefighting?" You cannot trivialize the importance of physical ability in this line of work. If little Susie doesn’t have the physical strength to DO the job, she is ineffective as well as a liability and danger to herself and others. Without the physical strength to do what has to be done, nothing else matters.
Are they as physically strong as some of the men? Hell no, but in terms of endurance they seem to handle themselves ok, and when we need someone to get into tight spaces, guess who get the job?When you need someone to get in tight spaces like what? Can you give us an example of the last time you did a permit required confined space entry? How often do you do those? You do an extraordinary amount of confined space work but you rarely pull a 2½ inch line??? Forgive me if that seems a little odd. Could it be you are "reaching" here?
we deal with primarily single story structures and the 2.5" is rarely pulled, even in our neighboring city departments.If a 2 ½ inch line is rarely pulled in your department I have to question if you are even a real fire department. Here’s a clue: it’s for big fires, big buildings, long stretches or standpipe work. If you pull it rarely you need to drill with it frequently, but you obviously don’t do that either. Moreover, however rarely it may be pulled it is still pulled is it not? Any firefighter should therefore be reasonably expected to accomplish the task.
"Your reality may be different from mine?"Please. What of kind of "new wave", nonsensical jibberish is that? You should stop right here because you are clearly out of touch with reality.
Somehow the military has adopted. To the contrary, despite a great deal of social experimentation, the military experience actually disproves your assertion. Today's military uses gender-normed scores on physical tests to account for the fact that women lack the strength and speed of men.
One of many things the U.S. Army found was that 64% of all females couldn’t throw a hand grenade further than it’s lethal burst radius. I’ll give you a minute to ponder what happens then. In the Navy's physical-readiness exam, female sailors can meet the minimum requirement by performing 11 per cent fewer sit-ups and 53 per cent fewer push-ups, and by running a mile and a half 27 per cent slower than male sailors. And, true to form, the military’s definition of sexual harassment includes any discussion of gender-normed standards.
Thankfully, females are not allowed in direct ground combat (DGC) positions in the US military. The feminists would love to change all that. If they had their way, 18 year old females would be drafted into combat positions. Of course, that would result in the almighty diversity so I’m sure you would be fine with it. What a sorry nation of disgusting pantywaists we have become. Have you ever been in the military Mr. Educator? I have. Ever served in a ground combat unit? I have. Do you have any idea what happens to POW’s? I do. Is this something you would want for your daughter, Mr Educator? I certainly don’t want it for mine. My only point is that the fire service has to accept it and adopt to it because it isn't going away...it's the reality and it's not going to change.In this statement you negate everything you argued previously. Your entire theory boils down to - "accept it, it’s not going away". So we may as well do away with all testing and simply have a lottery for firefighter positions because it would accomplish diversity, right?
You sir, are a poser, a coward and a pantywaist, I would not trust you to hand out cups of water at a fire. I doubt that you have ever fought for a worthwhile cause in your life. You fall for anything because you stand for nothing.

[jasper45]

I do not agree that those who are not capable should be placed on the job and I do not agree with lowering standards. I do not know how much your standards have been lowered but arond here they haven't been.


When I applied for, tested, and was subsequently hired here, in 1993, the test was based 50% written test score, 50% physical ability test, which is similar in nature to the combat challenge. The physical was slightly altered to our own specific brand, but it was tough and fair, in my opinion. Basically the higher your written test score, and the faster you physical agility score, the higher your placement on the eligible list would be. Additional points for fire related education, and veteran preference were added to your final score.

My recruit class had 8 women on our first day; the women who were hired were pulled off the list from wherever they ended up. The first woman who was hired was number 402, the next was around 450, then the following females were in the 800’s. Those were the only females who even passed the test, and they all received a job even though they finished hundreds of spots behind males, who were of all ethnic backgrounds. Of the 39 other people in class, which includes the women, we graduated 28, including 3 of the females. The only recruits fired for performance issues were males.

Since this time, both the written test and physical agility have been changed to strictly pass/fail, and some kind of an interview was added to the process. That is all I will say about this.


Are they as physically strong as some of the men? Hell no, but in terms of endurance they seem to handle themselves ok,

I won’t argue this point with you because it is possible in your experience, but mine is different.
I realize that this is a team job, and we do some things as a group, but there are times in which whatever task you have to accomplish needs to be done by yourself. I could list out dozens of things that I have done in which no one else could help me. This is a blue collar job, and it is a job in which all of our tools are either big or heavy. There are times where your ears need to be pinned back, and pure strength or brute force is needed. It’s during these times that someone with inferior strength becomes a liability. I have worked with many such people, as they seem to be more prevalent with our “newer age” testing process.
I have specifically not used the term female in this part of my post. My position is that anyone who has inferior strength/endurance has no place on the fire ground. If you want to paint me as anti-female, feel free. I have tried to describe it as PEOPLE who are unable to physically do the job.
This is going to become an even larger problem because of the staffing cuts we are in the middle of taking.

[doublej986]

WOW this is a heated subject. Mind if I put in my 2 cents? I have read all these posts and it is clear that all parties involved are set in their ways, for lack of a better term. Here is my view on this.

Do women belong in the fire service? Maybe, maybe not. I do know that there should be equal testing for both male and female applicants. I do know that officials should not overlook 10 qualified men to hire one woman. If the 10 men are more qualified for the job than the woman, the men should be hired first. My opinion is that if a woman can do the job (the same job) as a man then she should have the chance to prove it. If she can't then she shouldn't be hired.

I am a volunteer FF, have been for over 14 years. We have 3 female firefighters on the dept. Only 1 will go into a fire. The others want to do other things. Now, this would not be acceptable in a paid fire dept. but in vol. depts, it is to some extent. My paid profession is law enforcement. We have the same problems that the fire service has. If you look at any physical agility test around Ohio and maybe the U.S., you will see the standards for female applicants is lower than it is for the males. Why is this? If a female is attacked by 2 inmates in a jail cell, are those 2 inmates going to be easier on her because she is a female? Hell no!!! If the female has to run into a riot situation or pull an inmate out of a fire, do you think the situation will change because of it? No. So why is it that people who make these test standards feel that women can slide through them? An example would be to compare a female and male, both 30 yrs. old. The female has a longer time to run a mile and a half, has more time to do her situps or pushups than the guy does. She may even have fewer situps to do or can do them the "girls" way. How does this mean she can do the same job as the guy? I say make her do the same test as the guy. If she passes that test, then hire her. If not, let her go. Dont worry about being sued. Anybody can sue anyone for anything at anytime. Doesn't mean they will win.

I am 36, 6'2" and 260 lbs. Im out of shape, oeverwieght and I know this. There are things I can't do now that I could 10 years ago. Does that mean I cant do my job? No, I just know my limits are shorter than they used to be.

Now on a lighter note, I have a question. If I gave my two cents and somebody says "a penny for your thoughts", who the hell has my change? :)

[C7Henry]

Aug 06- If the test for hiring, and standers are different for men and women that is against the law, unless it is the military. So she would not win that one.

[lvwrench]

So, what are all of your feelings about what is happening with the Minneaplois Fire Chief? :confused:

[gober88]

I can say I have been passed over to reach another race. But with the way the scores are compiled it looks ok. Until you go by the academy and look at the recruits. Whatever happened to just hiring the best suited canidates for the job, period. Male female black white whatever. Just hire the best that apply! If this were done then no one any where could have a resonable objection. As of now my dept has no women. Not because they do not apply, but because of our physical agility test. Now here is the kicker. Only once in our career, at my dept, do we ever have to maintain or pass this type of test. So after I was hired I could become a great big fat smoking puke and still get paid the same as the ff who keeps themselves in good condition. But thats not my personality.

[KenNFD1219]

So, what are all of your feelings about what is happening with the Minneaplois Fire Chief? :confused:Makes no difference if she was male or female, straight or gay. What she did was wrong and she should have been terminated, not demoted to captian.

[Debbie626]

Well, as sad as it is...most men don't think that women can do the job...well while they are whinning and crying about us they are not stopping to look at the fact that the 18 year olds are coming!! We have some that have just about got a few hurt one of us could have been killed!!!! I almost got knocked off of the top of the engine while loading 5 in at a scene the other night!! They don't listen!! Atleast Women will listen to what is being taught because we KNOW WHAT WE ARE UP AGAINST!!

I am not complaining! I just wished that men would give us a break!!! I am 5'3 and weigh 105-110lbs, yes, I have had to drag a few out, adreline can do good things!! YES, I have problems dragging Rescue Randy, that dude is dead weight (sorry) but he is heavy!! But I can do it!!! We all have to!!

JUST BECAUSE WE ARE WOMEN DOES NOT MEAN THAT WE CANNOT DO THE JOB NOR DOES IT MEAN THAT WE WILL LEAVE YOUR BUTTS IN THERE!!! IF WE CAN'T GET U OUT WE WILL ONE WAY OR ANOTHER...MAKE SURE YOUR SUSPENDERS ARE IN GOOD SHAPE!! YOU MAY BE DRUG BY THEM...JUST MAKE FUN...

FIRE ....WILL FINISH LATER!!

[TurdFergeson]

I am not complaining! I just wished that men would give us a break!!!

You can either do the job or you cannot. It sounds like you want special treatment. I thought women wanted to be treated as equals...it sure doesn't sound like it.

[SPFDRum]

The title of this thread begs to ask: if it's NOT about gender, why the question of gender?

[mcfd45]

The title of this thread begs to ask: if it's NOT about gender, why the question of gender?

because they would have nothing to complain about other then the whole man vs. women thing. If you look at the threads that is all they talk about. the only good threads are about pregnancy. And when they have a prob they compare themselves to the guys. Well if all they bring to the forum is complaining imagine what they bring to their FD.
J

[ckresmer]

i'm a female emt/ff. I'm a volunteer and I can do the job just ask pearisburg FD were I was the first female they've ever had. I wasn't the strongest on the department but i'm strong enough to do the job. I have never refused to do my job or a drill. that's just background.

I do not agree with lower standards or passing over higher qualified people. I believe in merit only.

When I was in college I applied for a co-op with a small paid FD. The whole dept, except for the chief wanted me for that position. I had been participating in trainings with them and had already proven myself capable. I was the only applicant, NO was passed over. Also this dept did not have any females. I was denied the co-op by the chief because I was female, even though evryone else on the dept wanted me there.

So as much as most people believe in merit, there are still those that are biased about female and race, even if they are capable.

[TeayotaSoupra]

Once you are exposed to this enough you learn to ignore it and move on. Why spend so much time trying to defend yourself? I was going in as a police officer in NC.. went through a lot of training and ended up moving.. where i'm at now everyone thinks women shouldn't be in that career.. do I care? not really. As a vol. fire fighter people outside of the department seem increadibly suprised that i'm "allowed" to do such a thing.. who cares? My department supports me and I have a great time there. If you don't enjoy what you do with who you do it with then get out.. if your that upset about trying to defend yourself... get out.. it's not going to get any better any time soon.

[fireman4949]

Well, as sad as it is...most men don't think that women can do the job...well while they are whinning and crying about us they are not stopping to look at the fact that the 18 year olds are coming!! We have some that have just about got a few hurt one of us could have been killed!!!! I almost got knocked off of the top of the engine while loading 5 in at a scene the other night!! They don't listen!! Atleast Women will listen to what is being taught because we KNOW WHAT WE ARE UP AGAINST!!

I am not complaining! I just wished that men would give us a break!!! I am 5'3 and weigh 105-110lbs, yes, I have had to drag a few out, adreline can do good things!! YES, I have problems dragging Rescue Randy, that dude is dead weight (sorry) but he is heavy!! But I can do it!!! We all have to!!

JUST BECAUSE WE ARE WOMEN DOES NOT MEAN THAT WE CANNOT DO THE JOB NOR DOES IT MEAN THAT WE WILL LEAVE YOUR BUTTS IN THERE!!! IF WE CAN'T GET U OUT WE WILL ONE WAY OR ANOTHER...MAKE SURE YOUR SUSPENDERS ARE IN GOOD SHAPE!! YOU MAY BE DRUG BY THEM...JUST MAKE FUN...

FIRE ....WILL FINISH LATER!!

I am taller and heavier than "Randy". I suppose I'm just screwed if I go down and you're my "rescuer", huh. 200+lbs of "dead weight" suddenly becomes 200+ lbs of "DEAD MEAT"!

I'll take an 18 year old that can do the job over any ambitious female that can't!
So far as someone "not listening"...I'll make 'em listen!;)

By the way, if you can't pull me out, what is plan-B?




Kevin:D

[ChicagoFF]

By the way, if you can't pull me out, what is plan-B?


Plan B - File a complaint with the feds that you are too big and heavy and shouldn't be able to work with her since she is unable to drag you and it makes her uncomfortable. 4949 - you are a jerk for creating a "hostile work enviroment" with your height and weight! :rolleyes: This will lead to NFPA limiting all firemen to 5'6" and 140 lbs or under so that women can feel good about themselves and shout to the heavens how "equal" they are on the fireground. Does reality matter to anyone anymore???

[rhvfd1214]

As a volunteer, it doesn't matter your race, sex, or physical makeup. What does matter is training and accountability. If you can do the job, fine, if not, then the accountability issue should prevent endangering yourself or your fellow firefighters by doing something that may be considered hazardous. Any firefighter, male or female, should only be allowed to do the tasks that they are deemed fit to accomplish safely and accurately. Part of our accountability as a volunteer is knowing our limits and not becomming part of the problem at an incident. A good chief will know the limits of his/her crew. Simple training lesson: Accountability.
Just my perspective, but what do I know, I'm just a volunteer.

[Blaster3105]

This discussion is very simple. If you could hand pick your crew from anyone on your department to go in on an extremely hairy job with, how many women would be on your dream team? I'm sure there will be a few PC brainwashed individuals of both genders who will kid themselves here but in their heart of hearts, anyone on this forum who has ever faced danger will visualize a crew of tough strong men to go into battle with. This is the truth, the rest is all BS.

[fireman4949]

Plan B - File a complaint with the feds that you are too big and heavy and shouldn't be able to work with her since she is unable to drag you and it makes her uncomfortable. 4949 - you are a jerk for creating a "hostile work enviroment" with your height and weight! :rolleyes: This will lead to NFPA limiting all firemen to 5'6" and 140 lbs or under so that women can feel good about themselves and shout to the heavens how "equal" they are on the fireground. Does reality matter to anyone anymore???

Your absolutely right. I do feel like a jerk, and I should be severely punished for allowing myself to ever be placed in any situation in which the possibility of my needing to be rescued by a smaller, weaker co-worker exists.:o
Oh, the shame of it all! :o

I would like to take this opportunity to apologize to any smaller, weaker (yet, still equal) individual that I may have so recklessly burdened with the enormous responsibility of dragging my big ***** out of a potentially life threatening situation. I can't believe that I could have been so thoughtless and uncaring.:o

Please forgive me.:rolleyes:




Kevin:D

[lrg500]

You kill me Kev! I haven't laughed so hard in a long time.

Larry

[fireman4949]

You kill me Kev! I haven't laughed so hard in a long time.

Larry

...Just tryin' to do my job!;)

[TeayotaSoupra]

lol We have a few male fire fighters that i'm sure I could out do on the pulling of "dead weight" so it really doesn't matter whats between your legs...

I guess if your worried about some woman not being able to drag your fat *** out of a fire... go on a diet and get off your butt.. or go into the fire with more than one fire fighter :shruggs:

[bombera4life]

I don't think I would have a problem carrying anybodys fat *** out of a burning building. At 5'6" and 140 lbs. I managed to carry an "unconcious" 6' 260 lb. firefighter down a 35' ladder for part of the practical exams for our firefighter 1 class. On my department I am just as capable or MORE capable than half of the other firefighters, which are ALL men. The men on my department are always complimenting me for working so hard, and giving more effort than anyone on the deparment.

[FFFRED]

I don't think I would have a problem carrying anybodys fat *** out of a burning building. At 5'6" and 140 lbs. I managed to carry an "unconcious" 6' 260 lb. firefighter down a 35' ladder for part of the practical exams for our firefighter 1 class. On my department I am just as capable or MORE capable than half of the other firefighters, which are ALL men. The men on my department are always complimenting me for working so hard, and giving more effort than anyone on the deparment. So take that all you egotistical pigs.

At 17 years old, do you really think you have enough expeirence to state that you are as capable or more capable than half of the department that you've worked for how long? How many jobs you been to? That is an awfully bold statement from someone with so little life and obviously fireground experience. (Who hires 17 YOs anyway?)

And your statement makes one think you aren't even that confident in your own abilities. You stated:I don't think I would have a problem carrying anybodys fat *** out of a burning building.

You don't think? Don't you think that you should know?....is that because you really have no experience and certainly haven't been tested in the real world and obviously never really was tested in some joke of a FF1 Class.

Just because you had some live bodied 260# guy come down the ladder with you with the help of gravity doesn't prove anything. You epitomize the new crop of kids comming of age and on this job...male and female alike. You apparently through your own comments evidently believe you have nothing left to prove and you know it all. The class room is a joke and it is very forgiving...the firefloor isn't.

No one cares what your feelings are or how much you tried to accomplish something(a new liberal concept...it matters not if you achived or succeeded but that you gave your best effort :rolleyes: )...we only care about results and if you can do the job to the very end.

If you are capable of doing this job, then you should be in complete agreement that there should be zero preferential treatment of one class of people and we should have realistic physical and written exams to gain employment with a FD along with an accademy that doesn't allow failures to re-cylce because they are a protected class member. It isn't about gender or race it is about doing the job period. Do you disagree.

Why do you make your closing statment and why does it sound like you feel slighted at the comments insisting upon performance and superior abilities as opposed to gender normed standards? I know a few women (very few to be fair) that have shown they can do the job and they don't make statements such as yours. Why is that?

FTM-PTB

[FFFRED]

lol We have a few male fire fighters that i'm sure I could out do on the pulling of "dead weight" so it really doesn't matter whats between your legs...

I guess if your worried about some woman not being able to drag your fat *** out of a fire... go on a diet and get off your butt.. or go into the fire with more than one fire fighter :shruggs:

Why is it every statement here from people like you rings of inexperience and is contradictory within itself?

At first you claim it doesn't matter what is between your legs, and then you make the claim that it is everyone elses fault if you aren't physically capable of pulling your share of the load!

As for these few male FFs that you can out perform...if that is because they are out of shape that is no excuse. If they too aren't up to the task then they don't belong as firefighters either. You should improve your depts overall performance...not admit incapable people because you fail to maintain your own standards for all, male and female.

I suppose we should lower the standards for the NFL so that they will admit women (and men of lesser physical abilities) in lieu of allowing the best among the best rise to the top to achive entry into the NFL? After all Diversity is the most important overeaching goal no? Do we need more whites in the NBA or fewer Hispanics in the MLB? Should we allow any Blacks no matter their abilites to be NHL players because there just aren't enough of them?

Isn't every bit of this line of thinking racist and sexist? If so then why is it ok to inflict this public policy(I prefer social experiment) on the very people responsible not for our entertainment like the sports teams...but the public safety agencies responsible to get us out of the worst jam of our lives....protecting us and ensuring our ongoing existance as a developed society.

I suppose we should not ask for the most physically capable and most intelligent among a hiring pool but ask for those who meet certain race and gender standards. Why judge a person on the content of their character when you can judge them on the color of their skin or what they have between their legs? :rolleyes:

I suppose you shouldn't care if a firefighter is able to hump hose up a staircase feeding it to the nozzle team as they advance so the Ladder can find your child choking on smoke in a bedroom cut off by fire! It doesn't matter if a firefighter doesn't have enough strength to climb the ladder with the roof tools and rope thus relieving the common stair of smoke and the top floor of mushrooming thus saving countless lives...No...as long as we lower standards to allow those with lesser abilities among us to attain positions as firefighters, that is all that matters right?.....:confused: .......:rolleyes: WRONG!

I suppose if you want this job, you work for it and not make absurd statements such as yours...you are a cancer to this job and an endagerment to everyone you work with and to everyone that depends on you for fire protection.

FTM-PTB

PS- If you can pass a real physical exam and prove yourself on the firefloor, and do your part to be a contributing member of the company and department, you will have no problems fitting in. Start making excuses and not measuring up when things go bad...then you aren't welcome here...period...man or woman it doesn't matter. When will you liberal dopes figure that out?

[bombera4life]

At 17 years old, do you really think you have enough expeirence to state that you are as capable or more capable than half of the department that you've worked for how long? How many jobs you been to? That is an awfully bold statement from someone with so little life and obviously fireground experience. (Who hires 17 YOs anyway?)

And your statement makes one think you aren't even that confident in your own abilities. You stated:

You don't think? Don't you think that you should know?....is that because you really have no experience and certainly haven't been tested in the real world and obviously never really was tested in some joke of a FF1 Class.

Just because you had some live bodied 260# guy come down the ladder with you with the help of gravity doesn't prove anything. You epitomize the new crop of kids comming of age and on this job...male and female alike. You apparently through your own comments evidently believe you have nothing left to prove and you know it all. The class room is a joke and it is very forgiving...the firefloor isn't.

No one cares what your feelings are or how much you tried to accomplish something(a new liberal concept...it matters not if you achived or succeeded but that you gave your best effort :rolleyes: )...we only care about results and if you can do the job to the very end.

If you are capable of doing this job, then you should be in complete agreement that there should be zero preferential treatment of one class of people and we should have realistic physical and written exams to gain employment with a FD along with an accademy that doesn't allow failures to re-cylce because they are a protected class member. It isn't about gender or race it is about doing the job period. Do you disagree.

Why do you make your closing statment and why does it sound like you feel slighted at the comments insisting upon performance and superior abilities as opposed to gender normed standards? I know a few women (very few to be fair) that have shown they can do the job and they don't make statements such as yours. Why is that?

FTM-PTB

First off I will rephrase my comment- I KNOW that if one of my fellow firefighters was down that I WOULD be able to pull them out.

Thank you for labeling me as a "know it all" but I'm here to tell you you're dead wrong in that assessment. I am always trying to learn from the older and even the younger members of my deparment. I know that everyone out there knows more about something (whatever it is) than I do. Just like I know more about somethings (my abilities) than other people (you).

I not only put 110% effort into everything I attempt, I will not stop until I succeed. I don't stop until I can accomplish something, and do it right. If that requires me studying longer and putting in more training hours than everyone else, so be it. I am here to be the best at what I do. And even when I think I'm proficient at something I still try and do BETTER. (maybe it's the perfectionist in me)

I agree 100% that the testing should be IDENTICAL for men and women. I know that I can accomplish whatever I put myself to. Even if its competing on the same level as men (yes, I will never have the strength of a man but I can be damn sure I will show more heart[effort, whatever you wanna call it], when I put myself to something, than any man out there.) because I know I can do it.

And to finish up, maybe the women you know don't speak their mind. I have a short temper and a sharp tongue. I will tell you what I think whether you like it or not. Maybe my first post wasn't the best thought out or worded, but all I did was state a fact. And when it comes to physical abilities/effort I still KNOW that I can out-do half of my department, and they know and are glad that I can.

EDIT: and why is it that I feel slighted? I don't like anyone to make generalizations or to assume anything about the capabilities of women. Maybe the majority of women out there can't cut it, but I CAN, and I don't like to be lumped in there with the rest of them. I would like women in general to be given the benefit of the doubt.

[fireman4949]

lol We have a few male fire fighters that i'm sure I could out do on the pulling of "dead weight" so it really doesn't matter whats between your legs...

I guess if your worried about some woman not being able to drag your fat *** out of a fire... go on a diet and get off your butt.. or go into the fire with more than one fire fighter :shruggs:

Fat ***, huh? Since when is a 6'2", 200 lb. male fat (Don't forget to add 40+ lbs of gear I have on to that)? :rolleyes: Are no fireman on your department is over 6' tall?

I suppose this is your feeble attempt at whit, or perhaps its some type of female firefighter wanna-be-equal sarcasm. Either way, I seriously doubt the ability of a 120 lb woman being able to rescue me if I were down. Especially if they consider anyone larger than "Randy the drag dummy" to be "fat".:rolleyes:
What the hell are you going to do when you have to pull some "fat ***" civilian out of their burning house?! Hmmm? Cut him up first?

Obviously, if I go into a fire with one of these wanna-be-equals, I'll WILL have to take more than one firefighter with me!...Just to be safe, mind you.:mad:

There is no shame in admitting you can't do this job because of a lack of physical strength or ability. If this profession were easy, everyone could do it. The fact of the matter is that it isn't easy. It's damn tough! And for those people that are trying to prove themselves equals, for whatever motives thay may have, yet can't perform as such, are eventually going to cost someone their life! But I guess that's okay, so long as they can still drag "Randy" 50 feet.:mad:

If you have the necessary abilities (both physical and mental) to do this job, then just shut-up and do it...If you don't, stop whining about how you wanna be treated equal. Get the hell out and stop risking the safety of the Brothers and the public we've sworn to protect.

[doublej986]

I can't believe this post is still going on..... and on.............and on........

[Chief1FF]

Quote:
Originally Posted by bombera4life
I don't think I would have a problem carrying anybodys fat *** out of a burning building. At 5'6" and 140 lbs. I managed to carry an "unconcious" 6' 260 lb. firefighter down a 35' ladder for part of the practical exams for our firefighter 1 class. On my department I am just as capable or MORE capable than half of the other firefighters, which are ALL men. The men on my department are always complimenting me for working so hard, and giving more effort than anyone on the deparment. So take that all you egotistical pigs.

"At 17 years old, do you really think you have enough expeirence to state that you are as capable or more capable than half of the department that you've worked for how long? How many jobs you been to? That is an awfully bold statement from someone with so little life and obviously fireground experience. (Who hires 17 YOs anyway?)"

First off let me say I don't care "what you have between your legs" if you can do the job it does not matter to me, however if you can't do the job then you don't belong in the fire service period.

FFFRED,

Don't be to hard on "bombera4life" in today's world the young kids have it drummed into their heads that if they have that piece of paper that says they are FF 1 or FF 2 they are the greatest thing since sliced bread and they can do it all even if they have never fought a fire, all that matters is that they have that piece of paper!!!!

We are seeing a lot of that in the Volunteer Departments with these young kids who because they are FF1 or FF2 they know it all. Who cares if a guy has 20 years of experience if he is not FF1 or FF2 certified he know's nothing.
Except that when these young kids with no experience get in trouble it is the "old guys" that have to come bail their rear ends out, the few of us that are still around and have not been chased out by the know it all young folk.

Do I sound a little bitter??? Let's talk about training. That's a topic for another day.

[bombera4life]

..........

[randsc]

So I'm guessing that you assume because I'm 17 and a cadet at my department that I have absolutely no experience.

Well you are WRONG.

Because of my leadership and firefighting abilities, I am a member of the entry team (the holy grail of our department) and fight fire along with guys that have been doing it for over 20 years. When I get voted on as a full member in April, I won't have the usuall 6 months probation, because of the abilities I have demonstrated.

Every structure fire we have had since I've been on, I've been to and made entry. I run 80% of the calls we receive. Most of the members would rather have me, a cadet, on a truck than several of the regular firefighters.

You DON'T know me, my experience, or capabilities so don't ASSUME that you do. Don't make statements based on your assumptions, because assumptions are usually WRONG.

I know that training doesn't equal experience, and once again I state that I AGREE that testing to get on a fire department should be IDENTICAL for both men and women. So I wish you would quit bustin my chops, based on what you assume to be true. If you have a problem with my opinion why don't you ask me about it?


Your Chief might be interested to know that he is violating Virginia law if he is letting you on the entry team. Juniors in Virginia are allowed to go interior only after the fire chief or senior fire officer has first determined the building to be safe. Unless you have a very different definition of "entry team" than most of us, your chief is exposing you to danger, your department to massive legal liability, and himself to potential criminal prosecution.

Just sayin'.

[randsc]

I know that training doesn't equal experience, and once again I state that I AGREE that testing to get on a fire department should be IDENTICAL for both men and women. So I wish you would quit bustin my chops, based on what you assume to be true. If you have a problem with my opinion why don't you ask me about it?

I think this might be the source of the problem. What many of the other people responding on this thread having been saying, just not in as many words, is that it is NOT good enough that the testing be equal. It is necessary that the testing be meaningful.

Tests in fire academies all over the country have been "dumbed down" in order to allow more women to pass them. That is a fact; in many cases the STATED PURPOSE of changing the standards has been to increase the number of women who pass.

The tests to pass the training should be tough enough to measure whether you can actually do the job. In my opinion, the current FF1 and FF2 tests are a joke. Dragging a 160 lb dummy fifty feet across a nice smooth bay floor or paved apron? A joke.

It matters to me not at all if you pass the same test I do, if that test is a joke, and was made a joke so that you can pass.

If I had my way, the test would involve removing a full-outfitted firefighter from a simulated burn building, with carpeted floors, crap in the way, and enough heat you can't stand up, but have to drag from your knees.

I'm in no way hostile to women in the fire service, especially volunteer departments. But they need to meet tough, realistic standards for certain jobs, or learn to be driver/operators.

[fireman4949]

So I'm guessing that you assume because I'm 17 and a cadet at my department that I have absolutely no experience.

Well you are WRONG.

Because of my leadership and firefighting abilities, I am a member of the entry team (the holy grail of our department) and fight fire along with guys that have been doing it for over 20 years. When I get voted on as a full member in April, I won't have the usuall 6 months probation, because of the abilities I have demonstrated.

Every structure fire we have had since I've been on, I've been to and made entry. I run 80% of the calls we receive. Most of the members would rather have me, a cadet, on a truck than several of the regular firefighters.

You DON'T know me, my experience, or capabilities so don't ASSUME that you do. Don't make statements based on your assumptions, because assumptions are usually WRONG.

I know that training doesn't equal experience, and once again I state that I AGREE that testing to get on a fire department should be IDENTICAL for both men and women. So I wish you would quit bustin my chops, based on what you assume to be true. If you have a problem with my opinion why don't you ask me about it?

My, my, my. For a 17 year old junior, cadet, whatever, you certainly have quite an attitude! CHECK IT AT THE DOOR!

You are correct in saying that we "don't know you". However, we are certainly getting to know your attitude very quickly. :rolleyes:

I'm glad that you show an interest in becoming a firefighter. It is a noble profession. It is also a difficult, dirty, exhausting and demanding one as well. Don't think that because you've been to a few calls, you are experienced...You not! You have had a very, very limited exposure to what this profession is all about.

As time goes by, and you mature both personally and professionally, you will come to understand why so many of us are furious that the standards and the testing to enter this profession have been so drastically watered down to allow those with less strength and ability in...Both male and female!

I don't pretend to know what your personal abilities are, likewise, I don't know what standards your department has set as its minimum requirements to become a firefighter. I do know that far too many departments are letting people in that have NO business in the fire service. Wanting to do the job is NOT the same as being ABLE to do the job. We don't sell tires, we don't stock groceries and we don't make tacos. What we do is provide a service that peoples very lives depend on day in and day out. There is absolutely no room for anyone who cannot meet the "realistic" basic minimum physical requirements. Period! Too many lives will be (are) put at risk.:mad:




Kevin:D

P.S. Please let us know how a 17 year old is allowed interior. I have a real problem with that one.

[FFFRED]

So I'm guessing that you assume because I'm 17 and a cadet at my department that I have absolutely no experience.

Well you are WRONG.

Because of my leadership and firefighting abilities, I am a member of the entry team (the holy grail of our department) and fight fire along with guys that have been doing it for over 20 years. When I get voted on as a full member in April, I won't have the usuall 6 months probation, because of the abilities I have demonstrated.

Every structure fire we have had since I've been on, I've been to and made entry. I run 80% of the calls we receive. Most of the members would rather have me, a cadet, on a truck than several of the regular firefighters.

You DON'T know me, my experience, or capabilities so don't ASSUME that you do. Don't make statements based on your assumptions, because assumptions are usually WRONG.

I know that training doesn't equal experience, and once again I state that I AGREE that testing to get on a fire department should be IDENTICAL for both men and women. So I wish you would quit bustin my chops, based on what you assume to be true. If you have a problem with my opinion why don't you ask me about it?

So along with the question that everyone has been asking which is how does a 17 YO find herself to be on an entry team? (are you emancipated?)

Since you bring it up...How many fires have you been to? How many times were you litterally on the nozzle of a real fire outside a training prop?

There is no assumptions, just common sense and experience that tells us a 17with your attitude is going to be a danger to herself and others since you think that since you make 80% of your runs and all that other training nonsense, that you will have no problem doing this job...in reality you don't know and to say that you do shows a distinct lack in judgement and sound reasoning.

As for the members prefering a 17 year old featherweight cadet over a sworn member of your department...either you are delusional and that isn't how they really feel or your dept has more problems than putting children on a handline.

FTM-PTB

[mky915]

wow.....

bombera, if Smokey Joe Martin was alive today, he would be your student!!!!


bombera speaking to Smokey Joe" Thats not how you use the fing nozzle! gimme that. I am the best! "

I can't wait for your articles in Firehouse and Fire Engineering! Your name could be up there amongst Dunn, Brannigan, Fried, Fredericks, Brennan,Chapman,Clark, etc....

p.s. doesn't entry takes 2 men?

[bombera4life]

I request that a moderator delete my account.

[randsc]

You want to be a firefighter? Don't give up and run away. If you can't handle a little heat on an internet forum, how will you handle the heat of a fire?

What you have gotten on this thread is a bit of an education about WHY some guys have problems with women on their departments. It is not because they are neanderthals. You say you came here to learn? Than learn something from this.

[fireman4949]

I request that a moderator delete my account.


This is exactly what I was talking about...Your need for maturity. It'll come with time, education and experience.
Just don't expect to come onto a forum with thousands of experienced professionals, many of whom were doing this before you were even born and expect to rattle any of them with your "cadet greatness". It just isn't gonna happen.:rolleyes:

I've got some time under my belt, but I try to keep an open mind, watch and listen...I still learn new things every day.

If you listen to (read) the advice and direction that is willingly offered here to anyone that asks, you'll learn a lot on this forum. If you present yourself as a seasoned vet at 17, you'll get treated as a know-it-all kid.
(BTW, this is one of those little tidbits of said advice.);)

Don't run away and quit now. Stick around, have some fun and learn a little something. :) ;)




Kevin:D

[doublej986]

I think everyone's words are now falling on deaf (or absent) ears.

[2andfrom]

I think everyone's words are now falling on deaf (or absent) ears.
Have followed this rather frightening females contribution with amazement. Has any person here any idea where she operates out of, or better yet, who she works with? And can we get in touch with them?

If she is as good as her written word--surely she would have made CNN News?

Last time there was somebody that good--they turned water into wine and walked on water as an encore.

[mky915]

her picture is nowhere to be found on the vollie website..

I hope she had her humble pie with a cup of shut the you know what..

[fireman4949]

I notice her signature has changed...She has removed her My Space link and the link to her "supposed" department.:rolleyes:

I think she found out what some real heat feels like.:eek:

[kurtj36]

Ladies and Gentlemen take my advice...........Pull down your pants and slide on the ice....

[JimsFFKathy]

My girlfriend is a firefighter, and a Damn good one!!!! Kudos to her!!!!! Love her to death!!!

[2andfrom]

Just read the last couple of posts---I think that an old saying applies in this instance.


"There goes the neighbourhood!"





Any bets on how long it takes WT to pull the plug?

[fireman4949]

Just read the last couple of posts---I think that an old saying applies in this instance.


"There goes the neighbourhood!"





Any bets on how long it takes WT to pull the plug?

The Chools' vulger little brother, no doubt.:rolleyes: :mad:

[2andfrom]

The Chools' vulger little brother, no doubt.:rolleyes: :mad:


I do sincerely hope that you are not referring to me in your quoted post?

Prior to my post were two very inflammatory post's by "Guest Members" that have now been deleted.

[fireman4949]

I do sincerely hope that you are not referring to me in your quoted post?

Prior to my post were two very inflammatory post's by "Guest Members" that have now been deleted.

ABSOLUTELY NOT!

I was referring to the same posts you were. Sorry if you mistook my post.:o




Kevin:D

[2andfrom]

Your apology is accepted, and I thank you for it--I thought there must have been crossed wires(and for one of the few times in my life--rightly so)

[Digitelle]

Most women that are hired on departments are window dressing. The few women that can really do the job get screwed by the one's that the human rescource hired to boost up the numbers. It's time to get real. This job is about strenght and mechanical reasoning. Both are very hard for females. Of course some can do it. It's the same with men. Not all are capable. You'll never see a 55 yrld woman pulling hose or climbing a ladder. Just won't happen. A complete crew of female firefighter, ya right.

Ha Ha, I am an engineer and a mechanic, and a WOMAN. Yes most of us don't have the upper body strength that men do naturally, but there is nothing wrong with our brains.

I see some of the women firefighters on the FDNY doing just those things you described above.

[jccrabby3084]

You know I just had to throw something in here.....So much talk is out there how a woman won't be able to drag me out of a building...or they can't do the physical stuff..etc.

I am reminded of an interview practice for Milwaukee fire. That was a question/scenario....truth is yeah she may not pull you out, but she'll know enough to call for help.

I have no problem with women on the fire dept, so long as they meet the same qualifications as everyone else. Taking a physical agility with Peoria fire I seen about 5 people fail the test before me. All of them during the dummy drag....2 women and 3 men. No double standard, so it was a fair test. It did stink when I heard one of the women who failed, say she was at all the practice sessions. She tried and but I hope she got on somewhere...a lot of heart.

As for our dept...We had a LODD this past August...3 of the 5 women on the department were there. One fell through the floor with our LT that died...and she was able to get out. (I won't put the details here so don't pass judgement...she didn't leave him behind). Another woman was the Lt on the back up line...just before going in she had to put her hood up...that pause, she was able to see the hole. If they gone in they would have fell through also. The third was with me on the RIC team. They all did their job...and did it well. I will stand up for them anyday, anywhere.

It really takes more than just one or two FF to get another one out....point is if you know your limitations you are going to ask for help.

[ironmint]

My girlfriend is a firefighter, and a Damn good one!!!! Kudos to her!!!!! Love her to death!!!

How does it feel kissing a manly woman?

[ironmint]

I am reminded of an interview practice for Milwaukee fire. That was a question/scenario....truth is yeah she may not pull you out, but she'll know enough to call for help.

So for every woman that they hire, they have to hire someone to help her. That sounds like a reasonable accommodation under the American's with Disabilities Act.

[baileydonk]

Oh, my dear sweat ironmint... how I have missed you. The "Americans with Disabilities Act" comment, although containing one of my big pet-peeve apostrophe errors, was actually fairly witty.

Some of your points are valid, but you annoy us so much by calling us ugly all the time that we tire of you quickly.

[bfdarmstrongc]

Women firefighters are different then men firefighters. Our bodies are different, (for example, i dont have the upper body strength most the guys in the dept are blessed with) and when i first joined the dept (which is volunteer) i was faced with a lot of discrimination and lines like "a girl??" (not to mention i was only 16) I have just learned to work thru the differences.... and not give in to the stereotypes. The best feeling in the world comes from doing something awesome, then taking off your helmet and watching the other guys realize a girl is just as good as they are. Dont pay heed to the old sexist firemen, and stay feminine (to an extent) ...thats my advise.

[hydrotech]

anyone ever hear of adrenaline? you know the stuff that kicks in like when a mothers child is trapped under a car! amazing stuff;)

[PES784]

Reading the insulting words of women firefighters as window dressing, I can't help laugh at a tag line on one of the male firefighter postings.

It's not the size of the dog in the fight; it's the size of the fight in the dog.

That is exactly what women are saying and then turn around to get insulted by a bunch of Giant Jeathro's.
I've seen 3 male probies not able to do the Denver Drill, on a 200lb. FF. 1 Panicked so bad we had to call off the drill, and get a medic unit. I'm used by my department all the time as an example of "if she can do it you can do it" I have never failed at the Ladder rescue, Denver drill or any drill.
Most women in the fire service are smarter than men. We can do push ups and run stairs to catch up to your so called "brute force" but stupid is for life. And don’t think there is anything you can do to help your pea size brain. You know we are better, you’re scared and that is why you post negative remarks about women firefighters.

[jccrabby3084]

Most women in the fire service are smarter than men. We can do push ups and run stairs to catch up to your so called "brute force" but stupid is for life. And don’t think there is anything you can do to help your pea size brain. You know we are better, you’re scared and that is why you post negative remarks about women firefighters.

Pretty judgemental there don't you think? There have been several male FF's on these forums supporting women to be on the job, yet you want to call them stupid too?
Do you really want to associate yourself with those saying you can't do the job?

[Eno821302]

Wow, the lions den. Or lionesses den if you will.

Having been "on the job" with two different departments, both industrial and community (the latter being a composite tasking), I have had both the pleasure and displeasure of working with the female elite. I can say things both good and bad about them, as I can some of the men I've had the chance to serve with.

I know there are women accepted basically on a different agenda than they should be and as was no doubt mentioned in the past 91 posts this has had a bad reflection on the women who pushed through legit. I also had the distinct pleasure of dating a female firefighter and will attest that she had the heart and soul of a firefighter, and the passion that should earn the respect and trust of those who worked with her on the floor. She may have only been 5'3" but that comes in handy sometimes. Top it off with the fact that she could probably run even our fittest into the ground and the body to match... What's not to like?

I like how the one person put it... about perhaps not being able to drag someone out of the building, but being smart enough to call for help. Situation reversed, I'd sure rather have to drag out someone at 115lbs than a 240lb beast.

I worked with someone else at the other station who I didn't have much appreciation for, and that admittedly tainted my view of female firefighters for awhile- at least until I got on this job. The type that would bat her eyes a few times to get out of having to do work, and liked to wear the shirt and talk about how she was a woman excelling in a man's world. It was brutal to see, and few had any respect for her. The suggestion was made to turf her a few times, but everyone was nervous because they were afraid something would come about it being related to her gender. So- in order to avoid stirring the pot- they left her on. Figured for as little as she contributed or was on calls, it wasn't worth the potential problems.

I heard a couple stories from some guys I worked with about how their girlfriends tried to get on with a department at an "old boys" club and I have to be honest I was absolutely embarassed that anyone could have treated them like that. I hope we breed those types out, and believe me when I say I have more anger towards these old school firemen than I've ever maintained towards the women.

Fact remains: If you've got the heart and passion for it, welcome aboard.

[FyredUp]

Reading the insulting words of women firefighters as window dressing, I can't help laugh at a tag line on one of the male firefighter postings.

It's not the size of the dog in the fight; it's the size of the fight in the dog.

That is exactly what women are saying and then turn around to get insulted by a bunch of Giant Jeathro's.
I've seen 3 male probies not able to do the Denver Drill, on a 200lb. FF. 1 Panicked so bad we had to call off the drill, and get a medic unit. I'm used by my department all the time as an example of "if she can do it you can do it" I have never failed at the Ladder rescue, Denver drill or any drill.
Most women in the fire service are smarter than men. We can do push ups and run stairs to catch up to your so called "brute force" but stupid is for life. And don’t think there is anything you can do to help your pea size brain. You know we are better, you’re scared and that is why you post negative remarks about women firefighters.

WOW! Where to begin....hmmmmm.

Okay, here we go. If you are going to brag about how smart you are perhaps you should know how to spell Jethro.

Good for you on the Denver Drill.

Hmmmm, you complain about being degraded yet you have no problem degrading men with a broad stroke brush. By the way, have you noticed that some men on here have been supportive?

Stupid may be for life, but bitterness can be too. I'll bet you are a bundle of laughs to work with.

The difference my dear is simple really, ignorance can be fixed but stupidity is terminal and frankly your post has displayed exactly the stupidity and sexism and stereotyping you rail against. Nice job, you have met the enemy and they are YOU.

I know nothing of whether you are better or not than anyone or anything. What I know from your post is you have a major chip on your shoulder and my bet is you are always looking for some reason to be offended. Beautiful, quite the impression you leave for your co-workers.

I have been a firefighter for 30 years and an instructor for about 27 and what I can tell you is this. Those that can do this job, men or women, usually keep their mouths shut and just do it. They don't whine about being treated differently or unfairly or ask for special circumstances so they can say they are what they never really will be able to be. I respect people that work hard to get where they want to be and expect no handouts or breaks to get there. I have worked with several women over the years and some of them have my utmost respect and some I have thought were worthless turds and a drag on the fire service. It has been the same with the men I have worked with. You see for me it is really simple, work hard, gain knowledge and experience, and DO THE JOB. That is how you earn respect in this business. Not through whining and posturing.

Good luck in your career, I do wish you well. Try smiling and being a little less angry people may respond better to you.

FyredUp

[jasper45]

It's not the size of the dog in the fight; it's the size of the fight in the dog.

Wow, what a great line. In my experience, this is a typical quote from a non-hacker. As brother FyredUp stated previously, those who can, do; those who can’t, talk.

All of this ‘tough talk’, about heart, or ‘dog size’, or any other comparison is nothing more than lip service. My favorite quote though, is the ‘adrenalin’ surge one gets at a fire makes up the size difference; yeah, ok, I guess.
The only thing that has made this debate a debate, are the liberal judges who insist on forcing departments to hire people who are not able to do the job in the first place. That is it, end of story.

Most women in the fire service are smarter than men.

I guess you’re the ‘some’ who aren’t smarter.

We can do push ups and run stairs to catch up to your so called "brute force"

This might be the funniest thing I have read, yet.


Great post FyredUp

[baileydonk]

Most women in the fire service are smarter than men...
stupid is for life...
pea size brain...
we are better, you’re scared and that is why you post negative remarks about women firefighters.

I just checked this thread after being away for a while, and this really cracked me up.

Wow. Read your last line and then look in the mirror, lady.

What was it that Denis Leary's character said on a great episode of Rescue Me? Something like "Twat, quat, bitch, or twunt - do your job right, and you'll get called names you like to hear".

I'm used by my department all the time as an example of "if she can do it you can do it"

That can be a rather double-edged compliment, you know. ;)

[Shane19]

[QUOTE=baileydonk;796137]I just checked this thread after being away for a while, and this really cracked me up.

Wow. Read your last line and then look in the mirror, lady.

What was it that Denis Leary's character said on a great episode of Rescue Me? Something like "Twat, quat, bitch, or twunt - do your job right, and you'll get called names you like to hear".


It's ok to voice your opinion, but that quote was very unnecessary. What if someone belittled your mother by calling her those names when she didn't do something right.

[baileydonk]

It's ok to voice your opinion, but that quote was very unnecessary. What if someone belittled your mother by calling her those names when she didn't do something right.

It's unnecessary, but it's fun. :) It's in my sig line on a women's forum, with no one complaining there. It's an offensively funny quote, from an offensively funny t.v. show, and as with most humor it has a little truth behind it.

If someone belittled my mother, she'd be a little sad and/or mad, but she's a big girl and she'd get over it.