Are we stressing quick response to much??

[fireman4life]

I am posting a question that I am sure will draw responses from both sides. I have been in the fire service for 5 years, and throughout that time, I continue to hear veteran members, as well as rookies, preaching to everyone a much needed quick response time. What startles me is that the 2nd leading cause of Firefighter deaths, is vehicle accidents.
Some communities allow their firefighters to run blue (courtesy) lights, other allow red lights and sirens, yet even other do not allow any sort of lighting device, on those vehicles that are not considered "Emergency Vehicles".
When I am traveling out of town, or even sometimes on my off days, I will see an Ambulance, Fire Truck, or Police Cruiser flying down the road, much in excess of the speed limit. Is this really what we want to be preaching to our fellow Brothers and Sisters? Or should we be more focused on a rapid, yet safe, response.
I leave the decision up to you.



------------------
--Stay Safe & Remember our fallen Brothers & Sisters; John

[391HD]

If you step "outside the box", and look at the entire picture, you will find that most responses today, are not TRUE emergencies. Indeed, not worth the risk to you, or your families, to respond with warning lights and sirens.

Typically, for the average U.S. fire dept. in any given year, 98% of total property loss can be attributed to only 2% of the total call volume. Were these properties already total losses when the fire dept. was summoned? And red light and siren response probably did not positively affect the final outcome. Other issues need to be addressed for the reduction of property loss.

The use of lights and sirens for EMS calls can rarely be proven to have been of benefit to the final outcome of the situation. ALS services typically do not transport patients red light and siren, as they usually provide the treatment that can be provided at a medical facility.

The only good that red light and siren use has for an organization, is that it is a good recruitment tool. It glamorizes the service and attracts people.

Lights and sirens on POV's makes no sense at all. Why confuse motorists with all sorts of different vehicles displaying a variety of different warning devices?

Again, emotions run high on this subject! It is more tradition than anything!

[Firelover]

In our department, we say, and live by the fact that one more minute is not going to change anything in a fully involved house fire, or something similar. I think that this is the best thing that the chief and D/C have ever said.

What do you think?



------------------
Joel

If you sent us to HELL, WE'D PUT IT OUT!!

[tlfd600]

Well lights and sirens were part of the atraction when I first became a volunteer fire fighter, I thought this was cool and now I see the other side, they are over used alot of the time, I personally feel dumb in an ambulance running Code 3 to a stomach ache or vomiting when they can drive themselves to the hospital or like everyone else and take some Pepto and stay in bed for a little while, but this has shown me this what I want to do with the rest of my life and don't even use the lights on my POV all the time because I know the call is BS and only puts me and others at risk. The dispatcher has a good idea of what is going on so I listin to what they say and how they say it on if it is a get there as fast as I can or take my time and drive Code 1. But Code 3 is still fun for us all http://www.firehouse.com/forums/smile.gif

[pwc606]

Are red lights over rated? Sure they are. Is it cool to blow down the street at a hundred miles an hour. Oh ya! Nothing like it. There we are out in the public eye doing our thing helping out. They say, "wow, they are going to help someone, hope they are o.k." Then the tragic accident occurs. What are the families saying now? Why must you go so fast to such an unimportant call.
People by nature want us to come as fast as we can to there emergency. This I understand. On the other hand it is our primary goal at the end of the day to go home to our families. I dont believe that we should stop using red lights in our emergency equipment but, we should use careful judgement when using them in our POV's and when we are on the scene. It can be a distraction at times for some people. Most of the medical calls that we recieve today are BLS. We could drive up in a car say hop in and away we go. But they need that ambulance ride.
The best option I can come up with is be careful when responding in your POV. That light is not going to get you there any faster. In the engine or ambulance, make eye contact with each driver and wait for them to either pull over or come to a complete stop. Safety is our main objective.

[WFD56]

We aren't allowed any warning/red lights on our PV's. We are also PROHIBITED from breaking the speed limit under any circumstance so i personally wouldnt know about the 100mph :-) I find it interesting with different drivers, the majority responding in our Emergency Rigs drive the speed limit, a few don't. I believe that warning lights can be adventageous, but DEFINITELY put inteligence, awareness, and common sense above any emergency. No need to create a second call by causing a MVA.

[sloepoke1]

In Ky we run red lights and sirens. The state says that if you use one you must use the other and that the red light must be seen 360 degrees. Our dept s.o.g.s says that we cannot go over ten miles per hour above the posted limit and that we must stop for stop signs or lights. I do not understand why anyone would think that by going 100 mph you could possibly do anything more than I could by getting there, safely at a slower speed and if you live in an area like mine you would only arrive at the scene a couple of seconds ahead of me and is John Q. Publics safety worth that. That sounds like a hard statement and it is but is another life worth loosing trying to get a scene where someone may or may not be trapped inside a structure.

[NFDLT55]

Here, we prioritze calls. Most calls we respond are Priority one lights and sirens. The other small percent of calls are run with no lights/sirens. I dont support running a red light or stop sign in a POV, but in the apparatus its acceptable. Just look both ways and make sure its clear. We're only allowed to go 10 miles per hour over the speed limit which allows for a faster but still safe response. The reason why most respond so fast is because of two major factors. One is that any call has the potential to be "the big one" and secondly any call really gets the adrenalin going, so add two and two together and you get the answer for why ff's respond fast, sometimes to fast. If responding with lights on our POV's we must obey all traffic laws, including speed limits. Hope this helps.

[APG1]

Just a little question... Why the hell are you running code to a stomach ache? Around here, the dispatcher is permitted to decide 'code or no code' based on the information she is presented. The responding units always have the options of running code, if they so choose (not that a dispatcher could stop us. http://www.firehouse.com/forums/biggrin.gif)

If it's someone have a resp. difficulty, hit the gas and lean on the horn. If it's someone's stubbed toe (and I have been on this call), go with the flow. Yeesh. Use yer brains.

[Parafiremedic]

I once had an old timer tell me "Drive as safe and curtious as possible during normal driving, cause when your running code; everyone will say your driving too fast, till it's their house, and then your driving too slow" I agree with not running lights when the need is not there. The average speed of an emergency vehicle responding to a call is 30 MPH, and you only save less than a minute by running code. Try it som time. Drive to an area of your district that has a high call volume. Due this a couple of times at differnt times of the day. Then compare this with the known response time to those areas at those hours.

[oz10engine]

Response time in the fire service is a huge thing and can have a big impact to the incident you are responding to. Has anyone ever heard MAKE THE TIME UP GETTING OUT OF THE HOUSE NOT ON THE STREET. This means that if you are at the firehouse and have a crew and a call comes in and you are waching TV, RUN to get your gear, RUN to the apparatus,jump on, get out the door, and get dressed going down the road. IT'S FUN!!!! And your probably out the door 30 seconds to a minute and a half sooner than if you walked. That amount of time that you made up getting out because you ran instead of walked increased your response time without any being unsafe on the road. At my company when a box alarm comes in we run and we're out the door in about 15 seconds. Where at some other companies it takes them 30 seconds to a minute. That small amout of time difference means I'm on the street and 2 to 4 blocks down the road when the other company is just getting out the door. And they wonder why we beat them in.

[BonCreChief@Yahoo.com]

I'll let you decide. At one of my stations an Engine and a tender roll on all fire calls. The engine runs full lights siren and anything else available. The tender runs no lights or sirens and obeys all traffic laws. The average difference in responce time is 28 seconds. I have the records to prove it. You tell me is it really worth the extra risk

[dgrant]

First, I'm an 18 year veteran of a fully paid fire department, so the following opinion is born from first hand experience. And, hey, I love to "get there first" as much as anyone, but not at the expense of killing or seriously injuring someone. Also, my experience is with fire trucks, not POV's. Responding in a POV with a little blinking red light on the dash seems to me to be an extremely dangerous situation.

I'd have to come down on the side of reducing the number of times that we run lights and siren, as well as slowing down when we must use lights and siren. I've seen firsthand other drivers completely freeze up, not sure what to do or where to go as we continue blowing the siren and air horn at them, often "pushing" them to pull out into intersections against the light. What good is causing an accident that could be much more serious than the call we're responding on???

Another comment, meant in the spirit of protecting our firefighters....I strongly disagree with "getting dressed" on the way to a call. In my humble opinion, standing up, off balance, putting on turnout pants and/or coat is dangerous stuff in the event of a vehicular accident involving the apparatus.

In the interest of firefighter safety....



[This message has been edited by dgrant (edited 06-25-2001).]

[raricciuti]

I have to side with dgrant on these subjects - EVERYONE in a moving vehicle (read: fire apparatus) should be sitting in a seat WITH A SEATBELT FASTENED - no exceptions. Look back at fire apparatus accidents - a large number of the serious injuries and fatalities were due to firefighters falling off apparatus, being ejected, or striking the inside of the cabs. Above all, don't drive like an idiot - there are enough people doing that already (which is probably the prime reason we have so many MVA calls).

I will concur that response time is important, but we must temper our haste to get there with a good amount of safety. oz10engine, I hope your entire engine bay and everything it it is padded - one slip-and-fall injury could cost more than the total amount of fire loss in your department for a year. Not to mention end your career or service as a volunteer. LODD can happen in the station just as easily as on the street. In PA a FF died after falling off a stepladder while working on a garage door opener. Not exactly the way most of us would like to leave this Earth. If you plan on doing this (firefighting) for any length of time, walk to the apparatus, get dressed either before the vehicle moves or after it has stopped, never jump onto or off of a vehicle, and watch your backside when getting off apparatus or operating in traffic. You'll be around a lot longer to enjoy it.

On the subject of reducing lights and sirens responses, yes again. My department runs a lot of calls code-2, such as accidents with unknown injuries, CO calls without symptoms, unknown type downed wires, etc. Unless you have VERY long runs, the difference in response times is quite small (many studies have been done to prove this). We are also installing a preemption system on our traffic lights, which will reduce our response time more than any amount of lights and sirens ever could.

As far as POV's go, if FF's are expected to respond in their POV's to emergencies, then their vehicles should be designated and be equipped as such. In PA, off duty / volunteer FF's are relegated to no audible warning, blue "courtesy" lights, and a very restricted amount of lights at that. Why have some states taken the position that responding FF's in POV's are somehow less important than responding FF's in apparatus? In PA, 96% of FD's are volunteer - why does the state fail to recognize that for the big red thing with lights, sirens, hose, water, and all the tools on it to arrive at the fire, the people who staff it and drive it have to get to the station first? Makes no sense, but it seems to be more of the same short-sighted, short-end-of-the-stick mentality shown by government toward the fire service. Anyone want to discuss the F.I.R.E. act???

Sorry for the lengthy reply, but the discussions kinda stirred my interest. To sum up my position in relation to the original question "Are we stressing quick response to much??" - no; we're probably not stressing SAFE QUICK RESPONSE enough.

[ 07-13-2001: Message edited by: raricciuti ]

[HFVFD318]

I am a member of a department that has 2 stations(soon to be 3),covers a area of about 75 square miles and runs about 1000 calls per year.
We have an SOP that states: If you are within 4 miles(Driving not as the crow flies)you can respond your POV emergency and then only if it is a structure fire,MVA,or a cardiac emergency. It also states that in bad weather no lights or sirens are to be used unless told to by an officer.
We are lucky to have 55 volunteers of wich at least one or more live within about two miles of anywhere in our district.
So once a member gets on scene and gives a size up the rest of us will know if we have to step it up or a non-emergency respose will be efective.

I have been running lights and siren for about 1 1/2 years now and have run about 700 calls in my POV. out of those 700 I think I have ran emergency 100 times.

I use my lights more when I show up on a scene and have to block the road for saftey.

Remember If you don't make it to the fire safely then you can't help to put it out.

[MikeF25]

My Reply is this in my area where you have stop lights that take 5 to 6 mins. to change
that can be a big time differance going to the otherside of town. But, you have to drive responsibly. We are allowed to run a blue light, but only if the rigs are running lights and sirens. We do not have sirens on our P.V. and that is fine. My opinion is there is no need to go direct in your P.V.
Especially to a fire what are you going to do if you are first besides stand there and have everyone stare and whisper why isn't he/she doing anything.

Time can play a big role in Extrication or Medical, or even a small structure, but fully involved its gone anyway, and what are the chances for survival for people trapped in that.

Just my opinion maybe I'm wrong.

[jsdobson]

One of my instructors in my first Engineer's class some years ago emphasised, "The Pro is Slow." He had statistics showing an apparatus had to drive at least 3 miles at 60 mph (red lights/siren) to save 1 minute of travel time versus driving to the scene at 30 mph.

I don't know the source of those figures but I know they are pretty accurate. Prior to my fire service career, I drove as fast as 75 mph on packed snow and ice to reach a sick relative. On the return trip I never exceeded 45 mph. Time difference ? Only 6 minutes for a trip of 80 miles.

As others have said, if you don't get there, what good are you ?

[nonameFF]

NFPA 1710 and 1720 mandate response and initial operation in a certain amount of time. With standards like that, speeding will become a must???

[bobsnyder]

The biggest mistake that people make in this whole lights/sirens/response times business is that they assume that:

significantly greater speed =
significantly better response time

This simply isn't true, and it's the thing that gets people hurt or killed and the thing that causes all the debate.

The main response advantage to "emergency vehicle" status is the ability to disregard (with due caution) traffic regulations (stop lights, stop signs, lane restrictions, etc.). You make up your time not in going faster than everybody else, but in not having to wait for lights to change, not having to wait at the end of long lines of traffic, etc. This can make a big difference, especially in congested areas. Minutes (not seconds) can be saved, even at 15-25 miles an hour if you have the capability and freedom to cautiously wind you way through traffic without impedance from stoplights and such.

So the answer is: We need to be concerned about response time, but weneed to find effective ways of lowering it, not just "put the hammer down" and fly down the road like idiots.

[monte]

All of you make good points. It has made me think back over as many calls as I can remember to believe you are all correct. The only times I recall code 3 being beneficial is going through a long traffic stop going to another call. Using code at a reasonably slow speed only as a warning to parked motorists. The other would be arrival on a scene that is large, long, or highly complex. Again it becomes an arrival warning since we end up using opposite lanes. We are constantly pushed to complete the extrication of patients for transport in the first hour of the accident. We are rural and als sometimes is a long while, pushing 30 minutes or more during rotton weather. In our haste to reduce extrication time, we think speeding to the scene is going to help. Not so, sometimes we are our own worst enemy, or at least providing bad advise.

[jims49009]

In Michigan, if you are employed by a fire department than you have the privilege of using red lights and a siren to respond to an emergency.

With our department, we only respond to smoke investigations, structure fires, EMS Priority 1's and P.I's emergency in our POV's. Everything else is a non-emergency response and we only have 5 personnel that even have lights and sirens. I am the only officer that has them and out of 100-130 calls per month, I might use them maybe 10 times.

We we are responding in our apparatus, we are allowed only 10 mph over the posted speed limit by our policy but the State of Michigan says that you can travel as fast as the conditions allow. The latter part of that sentence can turn out to be a deadly situation if other depts don't have a driving policy in place.

Also, when responding apparatus and we have all three trucks from one station go out at the same time, we stay close and always go through intersections together. When approaching an intersection, driver's are looking for one truck not three of four, so if everyone stays together there is less chance that there will be an accident.

Everyone likes to get to an alarm as quickly as possible but our safety is number one and that includes emergency driving. If we do not arrive safely than we can not help our citizen's in the time of need.

Every department should have a driving policy and enforce it to ensure the safety of their personnel.

[RJE]

Osh, I seem to remember a similar policy.

Even in apparatus, 10 over posted, and at all intersections you couldn't proceed through until you KNEW it was clear. That tended to mean you went through greens at something less than the speed limit, and through red lights and stop signs at something like 5mph or less. (Slow down to a near stop, look around and make sure you have clear path through, stop if you don't - proceed, accelerating normally if you do).

Of course, doing that, considering how slow the trucks accelerate, we weren't going much faster than just following the traffic flow (and the rules). But at least you didn't (might not) have to stop completely, if everyone yielded, and you almost never had to wait through a whole cycle.

Rules for POV response w/blue light and siren was the same, except state law said (a) it was a 'courtesy' light, and other veh. were supposed to (but not ordered to) yield. and (b) while you could drive against traffic or proceed (w/due caution) through a stop or red light, you couldn't exceed the posted limit.

When I ran a blue light, I never turned it on on the hiway, just drove w/everyone else. When I got to the (1) stoplight that I had to go through, I'd turn light and siren on to get through the intersection, if it was against me. And if I heard the truck roll, I always turned it off and proceeded normally the rest of the way.

[nonameFF]

One thing to think about (and ask your company/municipal attorney about) is policies that are specific (e.g. 10 over limit, complete stop at lights). When the policy is specific, if you violate it, you are negligent, so if someone gets hurt in an accident and it is shown that you were 12 over, you lose in Court, regardless of whether the vehicle was being operated in a safe manner.

[rfcmitch]

Well we just had a reminder of this this morning in Kennedy which is about 10 miles from my department, and my motto as other people is, You must save yourself, before another person. Remember that even fire trucks are only to go 10 miles an hour faster than the posted speed limit, even code 3. Same goes for chiefs who have red lights. But blue light can't go over the speed limit and must stop for stop signs. You must be responsible going to a call cause you are going to do no good if you wreck on your way. So just slow down and take it easy, especially in the rain cause there is such thing of hydro plaining. And you CAN do it in a pumper or tanker, cause it has happened before. Bill Bennet today was driving a Dodge Dakota and thats what I have heard has happened. So please, slow down and buckle up.

[rfcmitch]

But in regards with that said, we in New York State and should be country wide that every second counts. Departments who don't run lights and stuff I think is just the most obsurd thing I have ever heard, you are emergency vehicles for god sake. Also, The statisitc says that out of 100% of calls natinwide, about 97% actually end up to be something. Should this slow us down? NO. Cause what about the other 3 percent,for all you know the call you are running now lights/sirens to falls in that 3 percent. Then you feel like abunch of asses cause you took your sweet *ss time to get there!

[james1787]

I have mixed opinions on emergency responses. When responding to the scene in a fire apparatus, I feel that there is no reason why you should have to go more than 5 or 10 mph over the speed limit. Fire trucks do not perform as well as regular cars... they simply do not have the braking or handling ability to drive any faster. Driving over 10mph past the speed limit is just plain reckless. In our state, only chiefs and asst. chiefs can run red lights and sirens. The rest of us run blue lights which are basically useless. The only time they are useful are to get past the police roadblocks when responding direct to a scene. Personal vehicles without audible sirens should not break the speed limit or have the right to run lights. They are not marked vehicles and they confuse other motorists. Where I live most of the people are on their cell phones anyways and don't even pay attention. Chief's vehicles and asst. chiefs personal vehicles should use extreme caution if they are running lights and sirens... they aren't marked units either.
I am also in agreement that the only adventage to audible sirens is that they assist in getting through traffic signals or heavier / congested areas. Im sure we've all had our share of responding through rush hour and have seen that sirens really do make a difference.
I used to be "crazier" with the lighting on my car. These days I rarely use them because I have seen how inneffective they really are. People rarely yield to them, and most of the time they just confuse others. The only time I really use them is when I am parked to avoid getting hit by other motorists. I rarely turn them on when responding anymore. The only place lights and sirens really belong is on the firetrucks and other marked vehicles.

[HOTDOG]

This is a very touchy area. I contemplated posting a reply, but here is my opinion:

In Virginia, we are required by law to run both lights and siren. However, during late night runs, my department does not run siren unless you come to a busy intersection, which there aren't many. Before anyone criticizes the way we respond, let me finish.

We are a rural dept. Our saying is, "If you don't get there, you can't help anyone." I am not saying we take our sweet *** time getting there. I am a driver/operator and I push the envelope at times, depending on the call. But most importantly, I am always in control of my rig. When comming to an intersec or stop sign, I slow to the point that I can stop if necessary, but can proceed if clear. The funny thing in the state of Virginia is if you exceed the speed limit, you give up your right of way, regardless if you are in the right or not. I am unsure if the above applies to emergency vehicles, but the chance is there. 99 times out of 100, if you are in an accident, your in deep crap. That is why you must maintain control.

The issue to me is what the definition of a true emergency is. Until you arive on scene, you cannot make the determination what type of response is warranted. Granted, sometimes you can tell by the info given upon dispatch, but most of the time people blow stuff out of proportion.

Point is, unless you know for certain, run hard, but maintain control. We don't run ems, so I am speaking from the fire side of the spectrum. I would much rather run hard to a false alarm as to running slow to a fully involved house. It is all part of the risks we take everyday.

Just my opinion and nothing more.

[Engine 224]

Hey Mitch RFD,

Your FD must get lots of action. Where I run, 97% of the runs are NOT true emergencies.

Sure you didn't get that stat backwards?


:eek:

[weir33]

Hi everyone Im from a rural dept. with 60% med 1st resp our district stretches over 15 miles of shoreline highway the difference between 55 and 65 is about 60 sec to the end of our district and when you get out you want to puke or quit. if you dont arrive you can,t do jack, plus someone from farther away has to come scrape your ***** off the road and cover your call.How does that shorten your time. We had a local engine rear-ended by a logging truck and it emptied 14 neibouring depts, to cover the extrication plus the forest fire How,s that for performance :(

[Brian Dunlap]

There are Pros and Cons to this whole discussion. I don't feel that Speed/Traffic Laws should be broken by any Police, Fire, Ambulance, or P.O.V. Responder. But we all see this happen. I am a Suburban New Jersey Firefighter in the Southern Part of the State outside Philadelphia. In my County alone there are over 80 Fire Companies and 90% of those are Volunteer. Some such as my-self use Blue Lights to respond to the station and some don't...It's a matter of personal Choice. I don't think that those who use these types of lights on their POV's should break laws or drive like nut cases because it really doesn't get you there any faster...I should know I respond 4 miles from home to the station and even with the light on the roof and the alternating head lights it doesn't make that much diffrence and On occassion I still miss the trucks. Driver responsibility is the key to that.

Emergency Vehicles: They also need to be driven with responsibility and safety. Just because you're all lit up for election and the federal is wound up it doesn't mean that the person in front of you hears you {Usually because the radio is up too loud or they're day dreaming} The driver has to measure each call and determine how he/she should respond. My company responds lights and Siren to all calls unless directed to "Reduce Speed" by either the communications center or a chief officer already at scene. In our 94 years of existance we have yet to crack up a truck on the way to a call. Just luck ? Maybe so but we seem to a pretty responsible group of people. One thing I do see though that bothers me quite a bit is Police Cars abusing the roads and laws. In my car I monitor Various Police Channels {Usually get a better Jump on Fire Calls this Way} and I see them just throw on the Lights to clear an intersection and than shut 'em down that fast and from monitoring the scanner I know full well that they're not enroute to an emergency...What gives there ? What makes a Police Car any diffrent from my POV ? despite the fact the Police Crusier is an Emergency Vehicle. I see Ambulances coming full tilt to the hospital {Located in our First Due Area} screaming through town just to discover later that they were hauling a cut finger or M.V.A. Patient with neck/back pain.....I know because I used to belong to an Ambulance Squad in another community who's policy was and still is Lights and Siren on all calls.

Hey none of us are perfect and never will be. I'm not bashing anybody here or any profession I think we all do one hell of a job out there --- Police, Fire {Career/Volunteer} and EMS {Career/Volunteer}
But who really is allowed to break traffic laws ???? The last I herd only Mail Trucks because they are on Federal Business which superseeds local and state ordinances ;) ;)

[Jeff Hendricks]

If you kill or injure some one and its found to be your fault, You can be held criminally liable. NFPA 1710 states a minimum response time of 5 minutes is what your shooting for. Seems a little like a catch 22 to me. True medical emergencys, or some thing where time IS of the essence maybe i hang it out a little more. Usually i use defensive tactics and its not a problem. Oh yea remember to use your seat belts. 96% of F/F MVA fatalitys the seat belts weren't utilized.

[RyanEMVFD]

Now this I can relate to. I work as a EMS Dispatcher and to me this is where this problem can be fixed. Down here we EMD the call and determine the priority. Some calls we run lights and sirens to, some we don't. And from experience there are several callers that request us to respond non-emergency, but that doesn't mean we will or won't. It all depends on the call taker. My fire dept does allow lights and sirens on personal vehicles but safe driving is strictly enforced.

[091101]

What Ryan said!

With the caliber dispatch standards we have these days, the determination of NEED for lights/siren response should be made before we even get called. If your dispatch/911 center doesn't train by E.M.D. or the numerous other Public Safety Dispatch standards availablem then they should. Of course there will always be situations where we cannot accurately determine the exact nature of an emergency before sending units. But these are the exception.

Sorry Mitch, but if responding lights/siren, "Code" whatever means the chances of me being in an accident increase 50%, than the 3% true emergency call will have to wait till I safely arrive.

And, TRUE, the lights/siren response only really help in getting through traffic and traffic signals.

Be safe.

PRAY FOR OUR FALLEN.

[mrtank]

Hello Everyone

I fall somewhere in the middle of this discussion. I am a career fire fighter and a volunteer. (We are all professional)I have lights and siren on my personal vehicle and must pass a yearly vehicle inspection to keep them. We are given a yearly emergency vehicle driver's training and have the opportunity to train with the local sheriff's department at a racetrack to learn defensive driving. With all this, we still have people driving through town at 60 mph to a grass fire. Where is the emergency? Yet, I think the minute you save may be the brain cells that keep someone alive that is in an arrest. It is all in risk management, what do you gain for what amount of risk. We are not going to take all the danger from this job but we can reduce it. Be smart and weigh the benefits of that extra minute you will save and base your decision on that. Just my $.02

[Chewy]

In our Dept. we try to slow the response down as soon as possible.This is done by getting the proper info. from dispatch or the first arriving officer.If it`s not an emergency, units are told to "respond with traffic".This is the case 80% of the time.We don`t do this because our drivers`are`nt safe . It`s John Q public I worry about they don`t seem to have a clue.It never seems to amaze me what drivers do when they hear a siren,(stop dead,go left,cut in front of you,speed up,or drive on like your not there).I wish I could get them on video,it could be very entertaining.

[gsmith-gakvfd]

First, a little about our situation where I volunteer. Our EMS system covers around 600 road miles of rural Alaska. Our local VFD covers around 120 road miles.

Our EMS system forbids the use of lighting &/or sirens on POVs. Our VFD only allows officers to use lighting &/or sirens on POVs. Being one of those officers, I can tell you that 90% of the time, they are never used.

Our EMS system responds with ambulances Code 2 99% of the time. This means lights no siren. We have no stop lights and most times traffic is almost non-existant. The exceptions to this are in high traffic areas (downtown), intersections (of which we have 4 total) and construction zones. In those situations we go Code 3 but in those instances rarely, if ever, exceed the posted speed limit. IF we do exceed the posted speed limit, it is NEVER by more than 10 MPH. This is not only EMS SOP but state law. We also at least yeild at all stop signs, and on occasion when necessary for safety come to a complete stop. 100% of the time, our dispatcher determines the code level of the response. Our VFD responds very similarly except that we NEVER operate fire apparatus at more than 60 MPH. Partly because our road system will not allow it and partly because the apparatus would never do much faster unless you were going down steep grades.

As far as response times go, when you're traveling 50 or 60 miles to an MVA, the time you actually save by going more than 10 MPH over the speed limit is so minimal that it's obsurd to risk it. Lights and sirens are for one thing and one thing only, to alert the motoring public of vehicles that require expedited travel. And while it's nice to think that with red lights and siren blareing people will yeild the right of way to expedite our travel, this is rarely the case. I've personally seen a 3,000 gallon MACK chassis tender running Code 3 doing 25 MPH for a mile and a half behind an elderly woman in a station wagon. Is this right? Should it happen? No, but the reality is it happens more often than not.

Before I would advocate the use/non-use of lights and siren or excessive speed, I would advocate the use of trained, level headed, common sense and in control operation both in POV and apparatus. Operate your apparatus in control, using common sense and for God's sake, always wear safety belts. Do that, and risk management will love you like you were their long lost son or daughter. Don't do that, and your adding elements of risk that don't need to be added on top of an already risky profession.

My $0.02

Greg Smith<br />Assistant Chief<br />Gakona Vol. Fire Dept.<br />Gakona, Alaska

[rfcmitch]

Well. They try to tell everybody at driver sadtey courses and such, that you are never more than 7 minutes away from a hospital. How untrue. We are about 22 miles away from a hospital. We are a rural community, which it can take 10 minutes to get to a call nd then to the hospital we are running 1 hour and 5 minutes maybe by the time we reach the hospital. So its upto your setting whether or not how "fast" you should allow drivers to go.

[Smoke286]

I dont think "We" are stressing fast response too much, I think managment trys to. However, when I am driving at work I go no faster then weather and traffic conditions allow. Theres absolutely nothing they can say about it. However they can say lots if i hit another vehicle or a pedestrian. Dont let them push you around.

[phxfire]

It seems that most of the replies to this post are equating speed to code 3 response. I feel that the greatest benefit to lights and sirens occurs in the heavy traffic of the cities. Those of you in more rural or suburban areas may not see the benefit of code 3 on response times as those of us in more congested areas may. Going faster is not the answer to a quick response, properly and safely negotiating traffic probably has a greater impact on response times.

[old one]

Undue and exceesive speed has always been, and unfortunately, always will be a problem. There is always that adrenaline rush when the alarm sounds or the pagers go off. I try to drive slower because of all the added hazards while responding to a call. People on the side of the street trying to see where you're responding to, drivers in cars not sure what to do as you get closer to them, other emergency vehicles responding to the same incident. It can all be very daunting.<br />Some companies may respond all out in the name of aggressiveness. Aggressiveness, however, should never be equated with recklessness. As operators or chauffeurs, we have a responsiblity to the community we serve, to our fellow responders, to their families and to our families to make sure that everyone who goes on a run gets to and from an incident in one piece.<br />As with all of the other posts on this topic, this is just one person's opinion.

God bless and stay safe.

[LeadMPO51]

I have read a lot of good discussion on this thread. Does anyone have a specific response policy, such as St. Louis MO's "quiet dispatch" that they would want to share?

I am looking to propose a policy at my station and am looking for input/ideas/etc.

Thanks

(email: erickenbach@wyopd.org

[FVFD852]

Our department is a 100 member fire/ems organization. We depend heavily on our Duty Oficer (with department vehicle) or officers in POV with radio to get to the scene and make an assessment of the call. This ususally reduces the need to run emergency traffic. Our SOP's reflect the state law of not going over the posted speed limit on any call and proceding with caution through all intersections. All riders are belted in before the apparatus leaves the station and no lights are allowed on POV's. We have had a few fender benders with department vehicles but no injuries have been incurred with these rules. Also the liability of running lights on a POV is a feeding ground for lawyers.

[valden]

It is up to the leadership of the department to review the response procedures and come up with a plan that makes sense. It is also up to the firefighter's to remember the reason we are responding...TO HELP WITH SOMEONE ELSE'S EMERGENCY. We are no good to anyone if we don't get there. And if your leadership choses to endorse the "bat outta hell" response to everything, then it is up to us to make sure we do it safely.