Firefighters! We all our Professionals......

[Lt Overmyer]

I know each and every one of us try to be professional in our jobs each and every day. Whether we are called to do the job of a small trash fire, a car wreck, a huge Haz mat incident, multi alarm working fires, Plane crashes, you name it, we as "FIREFIGHTERS" respond everyday....

Over the past few months, in the forums and in the firehouse chat room, there has been a lot of bickering, arguing, down right bashing of our profession. What I mean is, the question of who is better, Career or Volunteer.

As it has been said over and over, who cares if it is a volunteer or career who shows up at my house and pulls my kids out of a fire. They are still called firefighters.

Brothers and Sisters, we need to get over this argument...We need to stop throwing this argument over the internet and this forum. I am sure there are a lot of people who take articles like this and use it to battle against us when it comes to legislation that is being developed to help get us aid.

I know there are some who just like to throw this question out just so they can see how many people they can get fighting and then they have a great laugh over it. But do to the internet, this is reaching a lot more people than just us (firefighters). So please next time you want to stir the sh**, remember that you may be effecting your own out come when it comes to passing new legislation, or just plain hiring practices.

More of us, need to ban together and try to stop this arguing. Lets band together and fight the governments (Local or State or Nation). Please I urge you to think about this situation that is really getting out of control.

You ask for my background, Well I started out as a Volunteer (15rs), I became a Career (14yrs), I did both for awhile. But now I am just a Career firefighter. The reason is I just have no time to do both, for family reasons. You ask would I ever volunteer again, You bet. This nation was built on a lot of people volunteering to get the job done. It used to be called helping your neighbor. It is time we help ourselves.

I know there are different thoughts on this in each of your own fire districts. Please lets try to keep them there, and not all over the world. I thank you for your time, and your thoughts. We are all firefighters.

We are all Professionals......

God Bless each and everyone of you this New Year....Stay safe and Stay low......

Lt. Brett J Overmyer

[mfgentili]

Good thoughts and words Lt. I agree with you 100%. Let's all remember the immortal words of Rodney King.

------------------
Mike Gentili

[mtnfireguy]

Well Said Lt Overmyer

[Ed Shanks]

I thought this forum, at least, has been behaving itself lately. I must not be reading the right topics.

Where has the bickering been taking place?


------------------
E-4-A
IAFF 1176
RKMC MAL

[Pizan]

Excellent job Lt.!!!!!

------------------
Frank Ricci

[benson911]

I agree with Ed - ever since the big Knobman blow out this forum has been pretty respectable. Even when a fulltimer asked about everyone's opinion of volunteering on his off days, the discussion was appropriate and without malice to any person's "professional FF status."

Where is this Vollie vs Fulltimer problem lately?

[Lt Overmyer]

Ed shanks,,and Benson911, Yes you are right the bickering in the forums has settled down, since knobman left. But in the firehouse live chat, it has continued on. I hope by myself and others speaking up that we can help the situation. I know that I have spoke with several and have helped them to understand. I can only hope that others will do the same when they see the issue come up again. We have to stick together.

Sorry it took so long to respond, but been on vacation. I look forward to every one's opinion.

Stay safe and Stay low.

Lt. Brett J Overmyer

------------------
This is my opinion and not the opinions of the Carmel Fire Department.

[benson911]

Lt. - sorry I misunderstood. I don't do the live chat thing, so I haven't seen it. Thanks for the response.

[Ed Shanks]

Brett -

You're welcome to try to change peoples' minds on emotional subjects such as the Eternal Career/Volunteer Debate, but I'll bet most people have their minds made up pretty firmly. I know my opinions are pretty firm.

Personally, I hope the Great Debate stays in the chat area, and doesn't appear here at all.


------------------
E-4-A
IAFF 1176
RKMC MAL

[D. Anderson]

I couldn't agree with you more LT. Overmyer!. When my wife and I first got our computer I resisted even looking at the Firehouse forums for about three months because I thought that all that was going to be on here was the arguments of career vs. vollie, Smooth bore vs. automatic, etc. I finally broke down and looked and found this refreshing.

I've experienced a little of this rivalry between full time and vollie at community college where I've been taking fire classes since I graduated from rookie school, and most of the students (like 99%) are volunteers. It's like some of them resent me for being full time. They are in the minority though, and most of them have been great and are trying to learn from me just like I'm trying to learn from them. Most of the Vollies I go to school with I wish were on my department because they're so damn good and care more about the job than many of the career guys I work with. In fact, the reason that I go to school is that in many ways they're way ahead of us in tactics and equipment, just not experience. I hope to make a tradeoff and learn something that may save my life someday. The rigs and equipment that the Vollies around here have are simply unbelievable! I have some envy. What I really resent and is the reason I answered this thread is that a few of them have the gall to say that they are firefighters because they love it and this is just a job for me. I realize that it's the minority saying this, but it just kills me. I in no way feel that we're better than them and in fact feel that in some ways are behind many of the Vollies around here. Is this why there were problems in the forums in the past?

[This message has been edited by D. Anderson (edited January 25, 2000).]

[Lt Overmyer]

D. Anderson,

Thanks for your response and others a thank you to all of you.... As Ed Shanks put it. I think every one is set in there own opinions about the great debate. My concern is at some time this debate needs to change speeds and focus on the bigger issues of getting federal support for our profession.

I think enough said on this subject. When we start putting our own opinions on here, we are more than likely going to step on someone's toes. And yes it may hurt. We just need to remember that we are all in this together, not against each other, but for each other.

Again thanks for the responses everyone, Stay safe and stay low.

Lt. Brett J Overmyer

------------------
This is my opinion and not the opinions of the Carmel Fire Department.

[Sneezy_248]

AMEN LT. I LIKE YOU HAVE BEEN ON BOTH SIDES OF THE FENCE. AS A CAREER FIREFIGHTER, MY BUTT HAS BEEN SAVED MORE THAN ONCE BY A "VOLLIE". WHEN THE BELL RINGS, WE ARE ALL
FIREFIGHTERS!!

[MVFD108]

Whats the only difference between Career & Volunteer? One gets a paycheck every two weeks & one doesn't.The fires still burn just as hot for the vollies as they do the career guys.I'm a volunteer and I train with career guys as well as vollies and theres no difference between the two,as long as there is dedication and a willingness to do the job and do it right, in my book there never will be a difference

[firefighter_IAFF]

For the most part I agree with the Lt. I also think that those that have bad opinions of volunteers in general may have some justifiable reasons. I know that we have had our share of problems in our career/volunteer department. My opinion is that I take each person for who they are and why they are there reagardless of their paid or non paid status. I was a volunteer for 4 years before I got hired full time. I had to endure the bad treatment by some career members. I think we should respect all opinions as long as they are stated in a relatively cicil manner. I do not go into live chat so I have not seen the specific comments. Just because someone does not like volunteers does not make them a bad person. What makes them a bad person is when they espress their opinion in a childish and deragatory manner. There are great people on both sides of the issue. There are great volunteers and bad ones just like there are great paid guys and bad ones.

[Smoke286]

I am not getting sucked into this discussion again. I have been both a suburban volunteer firefighter, and a paid professional in an urban Dept. I can state catagorically that there is no comparison between the two.
I am not trying to belittle Volunteers, I enjoyed it immensly and would recommend it to anyone who was so inclined, but dont try to pretend that the challanges are the same.
Atleast in my experience. I'm sorry I am not trying to be inflamatory.

[Spanner]

As the Training Officer for both career and volunteers, I would like to state for the record, that the only difference I see is that I am lucky enough to be paid for the profession I love.
I have volunteers that I have had the pleasure of training to Level 1 certification that I would go in and fight hell with a water pistol with them.
I get paid they do it out of love for their community.
Our county and city has a great working relationship and I am very proud of both.

[Truck 2]

Can anyone out there tell me why there arn't any volunteer police officers? The biggest thing I see between volunteer and payed fire depts. are responce time. I've worked both sides of the fence. I know several well trained volunteers firefighters that I would fight fire with any day.The problem is with todays loss of volunteers some depts. just can't make the calls or run with unsafe numbers of personal.The federal gov. is going to through money at this problem just like they do everything else but that might not be the right fix.I know of several local volunteer depts. around us have live in programs started to help the problem but I'm affraid this is just a bandaid on a deep cut! Many depts. could help the problem by having just one paid crew on a engine that could take care of most automatic alarms and the fender bender car accidents that they run daily. Purchasing bigger Trucks and Pumpers don't do anyone any good if you can't get them out the door.Thats one of the problems with payed depts. when the people who pay the bills think fire trucks put out fires by themselves.

------------------

[SantFire]

Hey, Truck 2

There are volly cops, they're called auxilaries, at least that's what we have in Ohio.

Stay cool
SantFire

[pwduffy]

We are all in the same business, Life Safety so lets cut it there, and honor our life calling okay. We all do the same things ride the same equipment and have the same certifications.
Have a wonderful time doing what only a few of us in this country can do fight fire.

[Lt. Frank]

100% agreement LT. I have been on both sides of the issue also. Started as a callman and currently working as a career FF/EMT in a good combo dept. We back a full paid dept. as well as they back us. Remember our 6 brothers who gave their all...I do not believe there was a separation of volunteers and careers at the service. The minority in this profession is us "professionals" so called. Call, volunteer, paid or non paid we are supposed to be one family. Lets not be one family only when a tragedy occurs.

Lt. Frank Coombs

[fireater]

I think that MVFD is right the only diference is the paycheck

------------------
Stay Safe and remember to put the wet stuff on the red stuff

[Captstanm]

I agree...you do not have to be paid to be professional. In fact...I tell the volunteers that I instruct that if they think their volunteer Department is not a professional one, then they should get out. Most career people who bash volunteers do so for unknown and mostly fabricated reasons. Additionally, most of them have been volunteers (thats how they started) and soon forget where they came from. Sometimes it is sad.

I have been on both sides. I have seen some high class volunteer departments that put career departments to shame.. and vice versa!

Stay safe...
http://www.atlantic-env.com

[PifdDepChief]

I whole heartly agree. We are all the same. The professionalism isn't in a title, it's in the person. Whether career or volunteer, doesn't matter. Like some I started as a vol. within our department and through luck I was able to move on to a paid position. I am a Aux. officer for the Local sheriff's dept. so I still do volunteer. Strange as it seems, You can volunteer to carry a gun. We all know that those that still volunteer do it because they love the work and even those of us that are career love the work, I believe there is a big difference (some will agree and some might not). When a person earns a living day in and day out, you look at a profession different then when you are doing it because you truly love what you are doing. Please don't get me wrong, I as most of you probably love what we do, but there are those that get into the Fire service not as a career but as a job, We have all seen them and probably we work with a few of them. Those are the ones that usually will bad mouth the Vol. for what they do.

[Brian Dunlap]

I Also have had the chance to be on both sides and have found the relationship between career and volunteers to be good and bad...There are some career guys out there who forget where they came from when they volunteered and think now that they get a paycheck they are the best of the best !! Yet, Most of the career F.F. I have come across will go out of the way to be curtious and work side by side with volunteers...Yes we are all professionals when the alarm sounds or the whistle blows.... FIRE my fellow brothers and sisters doesn't care if you get a paycheck or not....

[DavesNavy]

A little late on this, but in our area we have many volunteer cops. Based on their level of training they have full police powers, weapons and patrol cars. See, FF's aren't the only ones. I have to say that I'm glad to see a more reasoned approach to this issue than one finds in the chat rooms.

[Lt Overmyer]

I really did not expect this post to keep going and going and going. But to those of you who posted a reply, THANK YOU!

Your professional attitudes have come through, Loud and clear. May god keep you safe and happy this year.

Long live the Fire Service.......whoooooooraaaaaa hhhhhhhhh......

------------------
This is my opinion and not the opinions of the Carmel Fire Department.

[FFTrainer]

I've been a volunteer on both sides of the fence -- as a volunteer addition to a career dept and in a strictly volunteer dept. I wish some of these opinions snowballed through the entire career fire service. As some of you have said, there are those who have valid reasons for their likes and dislikes of volunteers (and that goes the other way too) but I have found that thankfully is not the majority opinion. The way I look at it is when the S#%T goes bad, the fire doesn't care who it is after it will burn the career, paid on call, or volunteer with equal treatment. That is the thing I think none of us should ever forget regardless of where we collect a check for it or not.

[Kissmibut]

I with Smoke 286 There is a difference..At least where im from...And I have done both sides of the fence so I know from experience and it doesnt help that a local Vol dept tried to take over an area of ours saying they could provide better service and be quicker.They didnt consider they call a private ambulance service a few times a month cause they cant get a crew and we have access to their run times which were not even close to ours.If they would have just kept their big mouths shut and not tried to take possible jobs I wouldnt have the grudge against them that I do now. But dont think I take it out on all vols.I dont, just ones that try to take jobs from the career guys. They are the only Vols I have a problem with.

[E229Lt]

Unless you're from Donora, Pa.

[Kissmibut]

Not even If you are from Donora PA...Just the ones who want to "strike" when they know they are wrong. The main person posting on that subject in Donora is the type of Vollie that gives them a bad name and leaves a bad taste in peoples mouths.

[Brian Dunlap]

AMEN TO THAT !!!!

[Thoe1]

Don't forget your military professionals
http://www.military.com/HomePage/UnitCreatedPage/0,11003,701887,00.html?home_pa ge_id=701887

------------------
Your doing it right if your doing it
FOR HIM !!!
http://www.theultimatefirehouse.com
Http://clik.to/thoe1/
http://www.military.com/HomePage/UnitCreatedPage/0,11003,701887,00.html?home_pa ge_id=701887

[colfireman]

Botoom line is this

Paid Profesional
Unpaid Profesional

I happen to be both of them.

[scafd417]

You hit it on the nose Lt. everyone should realize that when the alarm goes off it doesn't matter what "title" we have, but the "job" we have, saving lives and protecting our community. I 've been an on-call firefighter for 8 years; I've trained, worked and mourned with Full time fire fighters. Step back and think about this one...If you hear I brother or sister who lost their life in a line of duty death, Does it matter if they were Fulltime or Vol. I hope not. We are all out here doing what we love to do, help people sure there are differences but they are insignificant. The bottom line is we are her to serve protect and comfort.

Lt. David J. Plumb
Swartz Creek Area Fire Dept.

[NOBMAN_K]

We all do the same thing? NAH can't agree with that. The other forum boards are talking about letting junior members (KIDS) operate the pumps, how many lights do you have on your car,and social clubs at the firehouse, etc..NAH, comparing me to a youngster with an ego trip or organization that promote drinking, can't do that SORRY.....Later KM

[JMP17]

This is not all vol. Dept.s their aremany that are very Profesional.
Sorry to intrude on your career/paid guy area.
stay safe!!!
JMP17

[CFD14]

nobman_k. We all fight fire the same way, wet stuff on the red stuff. Hey why don't you pay for all the equipment in the stations that have social clubs so they don't have to raise money anymore. I'll bet you used to be "a youngster with an ego trip". I could be wrong but the "tone" of your post leads me to believe you're still on an ego trip. Reread the original post, its not about comparisons, its about unity.

[Smoke286]

CFD, I dont think there is a valid comparison and I dont see why volunteers have to demand it, I dont mean that paid f/fs are superior to volunteer, but I spent 12 years on a suburban volunteer department and I am a paid professional f/f with an urban dept. I can say catagorically ,there is no comparison. This is a whole nother ball game, honest

[This message has been edited by Smoke286 (edited August 24, 2000).]

[CFD14]

Smoke, I work in the best of both worlds because I am on a combination dept.
I agree wholeheartedly with Lt. Overmyer, career, paid, paid on call, voluteer, no matter what your status, WE are all PROFESSIONALS. I also agree that no matter what their status, some are more professional than others. It is still not about comparisons, it is about unity no matter what your status is. Its about strength in unity and professionalism in all of your attitudes. Yes there are differences, it wouldn't be America if there wasn't. Why worry or get upset over differences as long as we treat each other as proffesionals unless someone merits a less than proffessional rating.

I would consider one "person" from Donora, PA as less than professional and I think E229Lt. would agree. LOL

Take care and stay safe.

[CFD14]

Smoke286, one quick question, when you were a volunteer for 12 years, did you consider yourself a professional?

[Smoke286]

No you misconstrued my post CFD, basically we are saying the same thing, just in a different manner. My problem is with those who wish to COMPARE, I have met many volunteers who acted in a very professional manner, and some who did not, just as in the paid ranks.If a firefighter wants me to respect him, then get in there and get at it paid or volunteer. It is people that DEMAND comparison that kind of get my dander up. My problem with volunteers is the actions of some volunteer F/F's and their organizations.Others I have found to be quite profession in there actions.

[CFD14]

Smoke286, My apologies if I misconstrued your post. You are correct, we shouldn't compare, as professionalism is attitude, aptitude and character of the individual which in turn reflects on the dept. no matter what their pay status is.

Take care and stay safe.

[Irish Emeralds]

I work in a combo dept. I will agree that their are some volunteers that take the job the right way, and perform very professionally and some career members who can be slack in their duties. A paid FF/department should be expected to perform at a higher level than volunteers simple because the taxpayer should expect it. I can only use my experience to judge this debate which compared to fruit would have apples and oranges. Both sides are fruit but very different types. In my dept the career FF generally out performs the volunteer members, but not on all occasions. This can be explained from the basic attitude or history of the fire service. Most of the career members were the outstanding volunteers in the department and it seems that the most dedicated move in that direction. So I do expect a career department to perform well. This is no slap to volunteers, just a basic difference I notice. As far as combo depts go, Unless career controlled, is the worst working conditions any firefighter could be under. Politics, jealousy, discrimination, power/control at all costs, pressure on vol members not to take the test, stonewalling the ones from the job who might become vocal, are the day to day conditions in some. This might be a minority of depts, but many others repeat the same message. The fire service will never come together like in the police, until federal guidelines & NFPA become law and not just recommendations. Then a unified service can pressure washington and state governments to stop taking us for granted and fund the whole system.

[Squadee2]

"DEFINITION OF A PROFESSIONAL FIREFIGHTER"

The fact that you are a paid firefighter in
no way makes you a professional. The fact
that you are a volunteer firefighter in no
way makes you a professional firefighter.

You become a professional only when you
exhibit on the fireground those professional
skills that you have acquired over the years.

Your conduct on the fire ground is and will
be the only yardstick by which your superiors
and the public can judge you and the organiz-
ation you represent...Paul Hoffman
Reading (PA) Fire Dept. Ladder 2

That saying has lead me for many years as a
vollie & career F/F from SE PA to the Midwest. I just thought I'd share that w/you
& to let others remember where they came from.

[FFTrainer]

Irish --

"A paid FF/department should be expected to perform at a higher level than volunteers simple because the taxpayer should expect it."

Completely disagree!!! I live in a volunteer covered town and I would expect the same from them whether paid or not. If there is a fire in my house, I want it out with the least amount of damage -- bottomline!!

I pay a damn good amount of taxes every year and a good chunk buys apparatus, turn out gear, hose, etc. Because your tax dollars go to pay a FF's salary you should expect more?? I don't think so, but that's my opinion. There is a town a couple of miles up the road that have residents who pay $13,000 yes thousand dollars in taxes a year and they don't have a career FD. Tell them to expect less because their FF's are not paid -- I bet you start a riot!!

[BOMBERODAVE]

HERE HERE!
NO MATTER VOLUNTEER OR CARRER THE FIRE BURNS THE SAME (FUNNY HOW WE DISCRIMINATE, AND DISASTERS DON'T)
STAY SAFE EVERYONE

[Smoke286]

I would say that both Irish and FFTrainer have a valid point, it depends on your point of view, and the experiences you have had dealing with their respective opposites. I'm presuming that you two guys dont know each other.Perhaps if you did you would have a higher opinion of each others calling as it were

[Irish Emeralds]

Trainer, I see your point of view. I live in the town where I work and feel much safer their than in any of the surrounding towns including a career dept and 7-8 volunteer ones. Just on response times alone the difference is wide which most times is the difference at a job. I expect just like you that all FF's and depts provide good service, but you and I know that is not so! I only voice opinions from personal experience (which I think you are also). More FF's on this website should do the same, then you would actually get positive feedback. We listen to the other depts while working and sometimes buff a fire for a photo (off duty). Just in my combo dept which has some excellent volunteers and career firefighters, 1 in 4 volunteers show a true dedication. Main reason for the other 3, social club FF's looking for a hangout, no accountability or supervision, no real love for the job, joined for the wrong reason. 3-4 career show true dedication. Main reasons, direct supervision, full accountability, they love the job, but there is always some that all they care about is a paycheck, and took the test for the wrong reason. Again this is exactly how it plays out, and being a volunteer in the same town before becoming career, I have seen both first hand. I have poised this question to many non FF's (taxpayers etc) about what they would expect in any profession from a paid employee or volunteer employee. 8-9 out of 10 expect the paid employee to do the job better. Ask around for yourself without mention of the fire service and let me know how you make out. Like I said before just because people generally feel this way you and I know it is not always so. Hope your next tour is a safe one!

[tkrzm]

Irish, I never looked at it like you say. I must say I can agree with it. It is a very nice suprise to see a few members discussing a hot issue like adults. I asked a few friends the same question, and 7 out of 7 expected the paid employee to perform their job better. Very intresting!!!

[FFTrainer]

OK so I've been asking around for the last couple of days, and I have also been travelling on this long weekend so I've asked in a couple different areas of the state and neighboring states.

What I've come up with is that a majority of people(non-FD), probably about 6 out of 10, state that they would expect more from a paid FD. This didn't completely shock me, however I took the question a little bit further and asked why.

The reason I got from probably 4 out of those 6 that would expect more... "Well, because they're paid to do it!!"

OK so that's fine, but I proceeded to ask why a paycheck matters and nobody seemed to be able to answer that part.

I guess what it comes down to is what you're dept. has to offer. I have been in both career and volunteer so I know both sides of the never ending argument, and like so many others out there, there are career guys who milk the system for the pension, etc and there are guys who love to help people and truly love their job. Likewise on the volunteer end, there are guys out there for the Christmas party, etc and there are guys who go to class after class, show up for every call they possibly can, etc.

I suppose some of the opinions come from each person's personal experience when their local FD was needed. Maybe we put on a good demonstration of our abilities for one, but hey the wind shifted, something went south and another family's house was a loss.

Bottom line is anything can happen to either career or vol. that will either give us a good reputation or a bad one in the blink of an eye, so let's just get out there, do what we're trained to do, and do it the best we can.

I guess the more I look at it is the the public should always expect the best from us, but more importantly, we should expect the best of each other as FF's and get the job done to help our fellow citizen.

[JMP17]

Very well said, Brother. I don't think I need to add anything further.
Stay SAFE & Take care of EACH OTHER!!!!
JMP17

[smokeeater51]

Gentlemen, my hat is off to all of you. I have been in the volunteer fire service for nine plus years and have achieved the rank of lieutenant, but not without a lot of hard work and respect from my superior officers. (which are also career firefighters elsewhere)
It thrills me to see respect for the volunteer fire service from professional firefighters, however, it does not surprise me that the majority of the respect comes from the guys who have run with a volunteer force.
I agree that the bad eggs on the volunteer force are the overweight, title hungry, light flashers who have little interest in life safety or property conservation, and thankfully, these individuals (depending on the area and department) are few in numbers.
I am a third generation firefighter that has a deep love and respect for the fire service and all of those who serve in it.
Again, thank you for the support and understanding that the volunteer fire service needs. Always remember where you came from, and continue to educate those who just don't understand. And to all of you "pro's" that could care less, thank you for reminding me of what I never want to be.

What if volunteers didn't volunteer?

[This message has been edited by smokeeater51 (edited September 12, 2000).]

[tkrzm]

smokeeater51, if volunteers didn't volunteer then like the police departments everybody who be paid. Most likely county depts, and the feds in washington would properly fund the fire service and not take it for granted.

[F52 Westside]

You are probably right tkrzm. The feds probably would care and start funding, but only after enough people died because there was nobody there to help them and they did a five year study to prove that a fire service was needed.

Nice post smokeeater.

Local 3008
"The opinions are mine and mine only. http://www.firehouse.com/interactive/boards/wink.gif"

------------------
Eddie C. - a.k.a - PTFD21
"Doin' it for lives n' property"

[cherryvale1]

Where do you think they would find enough firefighters to man these new PAID stations. I don't know about your area, but in most of the country, there are not enough men to go around now.

How long would it take to train 750,000 new firefighters? How many of the volunteers do you think can aford to give up their full time jobs to work as a firefighter? Many of the volunteers look at their full time jobs as a way to support thier love of firefighting. Why else do you think they would give up all the time they do knowing their family is waiting for them.

I have lived in areas of the country that pays the firefighter over $50.000 per year and that is great. I now live in the SOUTH where the local city pays the firefighter under $20,000 per year! I don't know about you, but my family could not live on that!

Before you wish for something -- remember

IT MIGHT COME TRUE FOR YOU!

All firefighters, Fulltime, Paid-On-Call or Volunteer are here to help the people in their area -- PLEASE RESPECT THEM FOR THAT!

[Kissmibut]

What if Volunteers didnt volunteer? We would have professional depts probably on a county or regional level.Ones that would have to answer to someone about their actions. Around here the Vols only answer to the county commisioners and the commisioners are not interested unless the Vollies want money.Otherwise they do what they want.The training is pathetic to say the least.The only ones trained well are the few that push themselves to go to a higher level and my hats off to them.The problem is so many other ones choose to not train but seem to be the majority that show up on calls which makes a recipe for disaster.Now Im not against Vollies,Im against Vollies who want to run lights and sirens everywhere,and i mean everywhere,but when they get there they are no better than bystanders with redlights flashing and some neat turnout gear that the rest of the crowd doesnt have.PEOPLE DIE THIS WAY!!! And back to the lights and siren thing.PERFECT example of what i mean was one day I was driving through the city I live in when a Vollie swerved into my lane against oncoming traffic with his little light and siren blaring and darn near ran me off the road.Well,I thought the obvious,Maybe he was going to a bad call.I knew who the guy was and what vol dept he ran with so I called dispatch and asked what they had.I was told they had a water main break and the Sheriffs dept wanted them to help with traffic control till they could get some traffic barrels to the scene.I WAS ALMOST KILLED OVER A WATER MAIN BREAK!!!! Needless to say I was furious.Common sense and training would avoid this.But this guy and his dept lack that cause when i told their Chief about it he shrugged his shoulders and never adressed it.So much for accountable for your actions???
Oh And as far as we are All Professionals.Look it up in the websters dictionary.Professional-"One who earns a living at a given occupation"

[This message has been edited by Kissmibut (edited September 14, 2000).]

[DavesNavy]

Guess this topic will roll on forever, but as others have said, it has been more positive than many career-volunteer forums. Just a few comments about some earlier posts. TKRZM, in my area of Virginia there are many Auxilliary Policeman and Sheriffs. Armed, sworn and assigned patrol routes, they conduct law enforcement just as other volunteers fight fires. Firefighting isn't the only place where volunteers work side by side with career people. I also agree with several earlier posts that highlight how economic considerations drive the career-volunteer issue in many areas. I submit that in most areas where career personnel are required, they are hired.
Finally, KISSMIBUT, good quote from the dictionary, but it says nothing about standards, performance or training, does it? One can "earn a living at a given occupation" while doing the barest minimum required.

[Kissmibut]

DAVESNAVY Your comment to me makes absolutely no sense the way it is written..EARN A LIVING at a given occupation means nothing about volunteering.I thought I was just missing something so I asked a couple other people and they all agree. Like I said I dont have a grudge against all vollies.Just the ones with the lights and siren syndrome and not a clue what to do when they get there,if they make it without hurting anyone.

[This message has been edited by Kissmibut (edited September 16, 2000).]

[DavesNavy]

I agree that liability issues have driven us past the time when volunteers should be responding with lights and sirens from home. If time is that critical, staff your station on duty schedules. I'm guessing that the states are pretty well split about this type of response.

You're right "KMB", my earlier point about your dictionary definition of "professional" had nothing to do with volunteers. I was pointing out that a pay check doesn't guarantee quality service. In 27 years of service on both sides of the fence, I've seen examples of volunteers who perform "professionally", i.e., are well trained, experienced and effective. I've also ridden with career departments who are poorly trained and understaffed which leads to poor performance and high turnover. It's just another way of pointing out that pay doesn't equal or guarantee a quality, well-trained department or service to the community.

[This message has been edited by DavesNavy (edited September 17, 2000).]

[ProPyro1]

There have been some good points made in this thread. I would like to address this comment to Kissmibut...I can certainly understand your frustration and I'd have a very serious problem with any emergency responder putting my life or my family's life at risk for something as petty as a water-main break. However, you're taking the wrong approach. If the responsible party or his chief won't listen to you, maybe it's time to address it with those that hold them accountable. I believe you stated that the vollies there answer to the county commisioner. Whining about it here won't help anything.
As for the term "professional". I'll just say that I've see some very professional paid and vollie firefighters and I've seen some very un-professional paid and vollie firefighters.
I get the impression that some people think that if the vollies didn't exist, they'd just automaticaly be replaced with paid personnel...take this into consideration...the dept. in my town is one full-time FF/Medic and the remainder are call personnel. The ambulance is staffed 24/7 by the full-time guy and call EMTs who sign up for 12 hours shifts to remain "in town" We are compensated for our time. Our board of selectman is having such difficulty justifying the pay check of that one person that they are considering eliminating the position. The neighboring town is in the same boat...only the board of selectman there are suggesting that the full-timer be put to work with the town highway dept when not out on a call. The problem isn't that we don't need emergency services personnel..the problem is that with less than 110 calls per year, how can you justify the tax increase to the citizens for a full-time dept? You can't... I know that some of you may be thinking that by compensating the call people, your taking money away from the full-time people...let's just say that those call EMS/Fire paycheck and 50 cents might get me a cup of coffee...

[Lt Overmyer]

Well I am sorry but I have been gone for awhile. I want to thank each and everyone of you for your attitudes and comments on this subject. I have received several emails about this post and all have been a sign of how professional we can act. I am also glad to hear that people are also asking others how they feel when out and about in your areas. Wow, that is an action that can lead to so many great opprotunities as far as closing this gap issue. Good luck to all of you. May God keep you safe...

Lt. Brett J Overmyer

------------------
This is my opinion and not the opinions of the Carmel Fire Department.

[smokeyben1]

I am a career firefighter with six years paid on call service and currently ten years paid service.Eighteen months ago my department [New South Wales Fire Brigades,Australia.], made a decision to expand their provision of fire coverage into major rural centres as the paid on call brigades were having difficulties with response. I applied and was transferred back to my home town and I was looking forward to working with P.O.C. firies of which half of the brigade I had worked with previously. Now 18 months down the track I am regretting having transferred back to this brigade. The Department failed to counsel the paid on call guys and we were accused of taking money out of their pockets,of not letting them respond,of not acnowledging them, of trying to make them work like career firies,of not asking them if permo's could be put at their station and numerous other things that are to many to write. The thing is we are there for the community not ourselves and I would say we do it because it is an honourable profession.Stay safe.These comments are my veiw and not of the N.S.W.FB.

[This message has been edited by smokeyben1 (edited October 12, 2000).]

[Lt. Frank]

LT: This has been a great post! I made a reply months ago and want to add a second two cents worth. My background: On call Volunteer from 1973-1983 fire and ems Paid career from 1983 to present fire and ems. Have done both sides. Presently working in a combo dept. My question/comment: Some towns can not afford full time people and must depend on the call folks. This is a fact of life. Call volume and tax money just not there. If this is a concern for the local taxpayer should they have done some research before moving to that community? I will stack my call dept. up with the best of them..and have all the faith and respect for my crew. Because they are call does not make them less of a ff than me because I am paid weekly. My helmet is off to all firefighters everywhere.

------------------

[porn_dw]

thats good that there's "volunteers" here i mean i used to be one....hasnt everybody been a volunteer before they decided to make it a career?

[smokeeater51]

Originally posted by porn_dw:
thats good that there's "volunteers" here i mean i used to be one....hasnt everybody been a volunteer before they decided to make it a career?

Oh porn...just thought you should know that people do move from room to room. I noticed in the post that you started in the "Jr/Explorer" forum room, that you are a vollie from the Winters CA FD. Lets not start falsifying ourselves here. Thank you.

Lt.

[FitzBFDT2]

Looks like we got a storyteller here.

------------------
Kevin M. Fitzhenry, kevinm@fitzhenry.com
Firefighter, Truck Co. 2
City of Bayonne (NJ) FD
www.bayonnenj.org/fire/ (http://www.bayonnenj.org/fire/)

[Smoke286]

Porn
In my particular experience that is not the case,in fact the large majority of my 200
plus dept has never been a volunteer firefighter, I would say about 5 % were. I however was

[OneLick]

The problem that I have with the whole professional vs volunteer situation is the so called career firefighters that volunteer in a union house. All they are doing is hurting a fellow brother. Would they like it if their chief told them to go home that day because they weren't needed, that there was a union brother from another jurisdiction that was there to do it for free? I don't think they would like it very much. Ask the brothers in Prince Georges Co. Md how they feel when so called brothers from DC and Montgomery Co Md and others come and tick in their Co and give them orders.

[fireseeker]

Lt. I agree with your opinion, however, I keep seeing others saying " Where is the argument"? Ladies and gentlemen, the argument is right before our face. In our very own standards. 1710 vs. 1720. Sad to say, but there it is in black and white. When you can settle this, we can work on the rest....

------------------
fireseeker