Volunteer Officers Commanding Career Personnel #2

[C Montgomery]

I have been reading this topic for a few days now and would like to add some items for consideration. First off let me explain my fire service background. I started as a volunteer for an all volunteer department within an all volunteer county. I was hired as a career firefighter in an all career department that was a 100% union firehouse. I was an IAFF member for several years until I applied for a management position and was promoted out of my local. I currently serve as Fire Chief of my all career Department and also serve as Fire Chief in my all Volunteer Department. Enough of my background, I did not want to be told to get out of the Career Forum. In regards to the original question, has anyone considered the term " Authority having jurisdiction"? In my opinion whoever is the AHJ of the incident would therefore be considered the person responsible for the decision making on the fireground. If a jurisdiction responds to an incident that would cause them to take orders from an officer (volunteer or career) from another jurisdiction then a Mutual Aid Agreement should be in place that outlines the questions of authority on this type of response. I know this because I have several Mutual Aid Agreements in place at my career department with both career and volunteer departments. There is no question on the chain of command due to the term Authority Having Jurisdiction is outlined in the agreement as well as several other regulatory documents such as OSHA and NFPA. If you are the officer of a career unit that is responding to an incident in a volunteer district you are in a bad spot. As the officer you are also acting as management to your firefighters, which means you have the responsibility as the employer to protect your employees. This means if you are told to accomplish a task that is given by someone in another jurisdiction (career or volunteer) that will place your employees under your command in an unsafe situation, you have the right to question this command. If you do not and something happens you can bet you and the incident commander will have some very tough questions to answer. The only advice I can give is please protect your troops. I have seen several near misses caused by the leadership of both career and volunteer departments. Again, If you feel that an officer of another jurisdiction is not qualified to render safe and prudent judgment during an incident you better make sure this is addressed in a Mutual Aid Agreement. The fireground is not a place to hash this out.

FTM-PTB

Clifford Montgomery
Fire Chief
Blue Grass Army Depot
Richmond Ky.

[CFD14]

A very insightful post.

[PA Volunteer]

tkrzm ... so, just because a company is volunteer, they can't have the quality equipment necessary to adequately protect the community for which they volunteer? That doesn't seem to make sense.

Let's do a little comparison here ... in the community for which I serve, the police force - 30 paid full time officers - has a budget of approximately $1,000,000 (give or take a few hundred). Our 100% volunteer fire department has a budget of $125,000. Do the math. As for better service ... I'm sure there are places where paid guys provide better service. I know for a fact though, that there are places where the volunteers provide just as good, if not better service. So, take it or leave it. We provide a service, and we save $725,000 a year. We work very well with the paid guys in the city. Sometimes we take orders from them - sometimes they take orders from us. We're all there to do the same job. I'm glad Canman24 can see past all of this crap and keep doing what he knows is right.

Once again, regardless of our differences, Stay Safe.

[PA Volunteer]

tkrzm ... I was wrong, sorry. It's not $725,000 it's, and I quote, "Billions" ... check it out.
www.firehouse.com/news/2001/6/15_volunteers.html (http://www.firehouse.com/news/2001/6/15_volunteers.html)

or
www.pfsi.org/fundingstudy.doc (http://www.pfsi.org/fundingstudy.doc)

Any Questions?

Nonetheless ... Stay Safe.

[dr inferno]

PA VOLUNTEER: This is the career forum.If you want to pound your chest and brag about what a good job you do(for free) you would be best to do it where you will recieve praise from others who support your views. As for your thoughts on saving money I'm certain insurance companies have done studies to the contrary and have shown that if they had a CAREER department in the area their insurance losses would be reduced. So as like always a study is a play on numbers designed to be one sided and show whatever result is desired by the author of the report. Before you start I do not have anything against the volunteer service and even have friends who belong to volunteer departments. I just can't see any other organization taking orders from part time or volunteer people. Think about this police officers taking orders from auxilliary officers who are only there to help out with traffic control and security purposes? Not likely to happen. Nurses taking their direction from candy stripers? Once again not gonna happen. The fire service is so dated in its thinking though this kind of practice is common place and unfortunatly brings with it the animosity shown here in the career against the volunteer issues.

C Montgomery: nice thoughts too bad the power trippers will get offended by some constructive critisism.

[Lewiston2Capt]

I as a volunteer officer would like to state that I agree with everything that C Montgomery states in his post. I may be faced with the task of being OIC of a fire scene where Career FF are called mutual aid. I would only hope that some consideration is given (regardless of my pay status) to my request before a judgement is passed should the circumstance arrise. I personally would have no problem taking advice from officers with more experience, however freelancing is dangerous no matter where you are.
Thank you for allowing me time to post on your forum.

------------------
Shawn M. Cecula
Captain
Lewiston Fire Co. No. 2

[This message has been edited by Lewiston2Capt (edited 06-18-2001).]

[FyredUp]

In this corner the closed minded protect the union at any cost career firefighters, and in this corner the we are the chosen ones, the volunteers.

Did I sufficiently enflame both sides? I hope so.

This argument probably started about 5 minutes after the first career department was formed and will continue til the end of time. And just because it has gone on for so long does not give it any sense of purpose or usefulness.

Anybody wonder why the FIREACT was nearly killed? And why the resurrected FIREACT was and is for less money than originally asked for? Because of exactly the type of nonsense that started on the other post and has come over here to roost. We have no united front for the entire fire service, so we are politically weak.

I would venture to guess that as many or more volunteer fire departments sent letters, e-mails and fax's to their congressmen to save the FIREACT as did career fire departments. Does that make them more important? No, but it does show they are part of the loud voice that the fire service can muster when we decide to work for our common good. Are we stronger apart or together? It seems to me to be a no brainer.

By the way, for those who care, I am a career firefighter where I work and a volly where I live, 5 counties away from where I work. There are no paid personnel in my volly FD, when and if there ever are I will step aside.

Take care all of my brothers and sisters, stay safe and let's all reach that ultimate goal together, retirement!

FyredUp

[tkrzm]

Just an example: My town FD budget is 2.2 M
1.5 for Career, .7 volunteer. Three all volunteer (free as some would say) depts who are Fire Districts who set their own tax rate, avg 2.8 M no career men 75% less fire combined, and equal in apparatus to the third largest career dept in the state. As for the saving of billions by the volunteer depts in Pa. I read the report and can agree with the rural and farm areas need for volunteers.

[ArmyTruckCompany]

Volunteers in Pa. saving millions??? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!! NOT IN MONTGOMERY COUNTY, Pa!!!! My god, there are some volunteer departments there that spend money like it grows on trees!!! (OR in Taxpayers trees!!!) What I want to know is, why do some of these (so-called money saving) volunteer houses spend 400 or 500,000 on a new pumper, and up to 900,000 on a new ladder truck, when the one they have now is perfectly fine?? Oh my gawd!!! The 9 year old ladder truck with 13,000 miles on it got a scratch!!! CALL PIERCE!!! DON'T PUT IT OUT TO BID!! SOMEONE MAY OUTBID PIERCE!!!......Then there's the time-honored tradition of....."Hmmmmmmm...Company X just got a brand new Rescue truck...bigger than ours...We better nip that in the bud"....."Hello, Seagrave??.....We have us a problem here....." (ooops, don't put that one out to bid, either, we want Seagrave...and if someone finds out, we'll just write the specs around Seagrave!!) Volunteers may save in salaries and benefits, but certainly make up for it in overspending on non-needed items!!!!!

------------------
"Loyalty above all else, except honor."

[CAPNJEFF1202]

Bravo Chief Montgomery, well said!

Can't we all just get along?

[This message has been edited by CAPNJEFF1202 (edited 06-19-2001).]

[Bishop10]

Greetings to all,

In regards to the "Fireact", if it wasn't for the Fire Unions lobbying for this, the money would not have been reinstated. Volunteers have really no political pull nationally. As the old saying goes, "Money Talks, Bull**** Walks". I am sure that the volunteers did send alot of letters to their Congressmen, but letters only do so much.

And if Bush didn't dislike the fire service (my own opinion), the 300 million dollars would have stayed in place. Let's see if Bush shows up at the National Firefighter's Memorial on Firefighter's Sunday in October. He showed up to the police memorial a couple of months ago, because he likes them. (LOL)

Fyredup, give it a break on the "union protect at any cost" and volunteers are "the choosen ones". Volunteers were not choosen to be a volunteer. As you know, they put in an application with their five or ten dollars and they were excepted. As a career firefighter, you put your application in, test, placed on a list, and hope you get hired. And I agree with you, some things Career and vollies can work on together for the common good of the fire service (i.e. Fireact) But what hurts the vollies, in my opinion, is the NFPA 1720. That divides the two even further apart.

Monty, I wouldn't kick you out of here because you are a Career Chief and a vollie chief. You brought up good points that did not offend anyone. The people that were told to get out were the ones who were the ones who could only see their point and no one elses.

[FyredUp]

Bishop10,

To quote Charlie Brown "Don't you know a sarcasm when you hear one?" I can't believe the point I was trying to make escaped you. The point is that is how we view each other. The Vollys look at the hard core "vollies are scabs" crowd as protect the union at all cost and the paid guys look at the vollies, when they aren't calling them scabs, as people who think they are the chosen ones.

The idiocy of this whole topic is just unbelievable. The facts are this: 1) Seldom if ever do we put forth a united front as firefighters, hence on a national level we are politically weak. 2) Each year we struggle to maintain federal fire programs, such as the NFA, and of late the FIREACT. While the cops provide a united front and recieve BILLIONS, we are divided and recieve MILLIONS a paltry sum in comparison. Ever wonder why the cops have almost a free ticket to federal excess property we can't even get near? And don't tell me we have the same access as them, because I can prove we don't.

I can already hear you saying but all cops are paid so their Union is what makes them strong. NO IT ISN'T, what makes them strong is the ability to put aside stupid territorial and other meaningless squabbles long enough to get what they need.

I do agree with you on 1720. I said all along all that did was fan the flames of differences between the 2 and open the vollies up for attacks from the die hard career FF's. There could have been one standard that had exceptions in appropriate areas for vollies if needed. Response times may have been such an area. Some volly FD's have large areas and greater response times to those areas.

All in all this whole argument just simply doesn't matter cause the vollies ain't going away anytime soon and the career FD's ain't leaving either.

Get over it, move on, live with it, and just stay safe.

FyredUp

[CaptainWagon2]

As a Captain of a Volunteer Department that on occasion has had to use mutal aid from a career department, I find nothing discouraging or have had any negativity involving a volunteer as IC. If a career department enters our county then IC is established by the Vol. dept as is vice versa us into their county. But the best way we have found to deal with this situation is we talk directly to the B.C. or highest ranking career officer and THEY order their crews. Unless it is a mutual split of manpower. I must say I am glad we have yet to have to deal with any paid vs. vollie introduced on the fire ground and I think if this is a issue that occurs on the fire ground or any Scene...Then this isn't a Paid vs. vollie thing, it's a Mines bigger then yours thing. I'm just curious how the public would react to know what the fire service has hiding in it's shadows...Unsung Heros?? or Habitual gripers?? Maybe it just comes with the territory.

I'm glad to work with either. As long as the job at hand has been accomplished

[WEBTEAM*]

WOW!

I can’t believe the discussion here. Yes, there has been a problem for years with mutual aid in general. This should not be a vol. vs. paid issue. Every department has different SOG's then the next, and you must expect that on interior fires things can get a little hairy if your mutual aid departments do not consistently fight the fires from the inside. When I use mutual aid all of the Chief's become part of my command staff if necessary. GOD is the only true IC. Any IC that doesn't use all of his volunteer and paid resources is only hurting himself and his men.


[This message has been edited by WEBTEAM* (edited 06-21-2001).]

[Bishop10]

Greetings,

Fryedup, yes, I do know sarcasm when I see it. I am not an idiot. The point I was trying to make upon your remarks were intended for the tunnel visioned individuals who would see either remark that you made (depending on the side, LOL) as being true. That's all. Nothing more or nothing less.

I disagree with you on the "cop" issue involving federal funding. Everyone likes cops, don't like firefighters. Cops, in their opinons, serve a purpose.......prevention of crime. So give them what they want. Manpower, equipment, etc.... But anyhow, this isn't even the subject at hand.

As for the Webteams response, keep God out of it. He (or she) is not the IC. Cheif's think they are god like, but they are not.

[CanMan24]

YO

[This message has been edited by CanMan24 (edited 06-22-2001).]

[Bishop10]

CANMAN 24!!!!!

Long time no see. Thought you got lost in the shuffle.

Which words of wisdom are you speaking of? That God is not the I.C, that Chief's think they are God or that nobody like firefighters but loves cops? Your pick.(LOL)

Canman, here are some words of wisdom......if you are going to critize, be constructive not destructive........it get's you or no one else anywhere. And why the red face (anger one) next to your post?

[firefighter882]

What is the big deal???? Career taking orders from a volunteer, volunteer taking orders from career!! WHO CARES. As long as the job gets done, and no one gets hurt, what is the problem. There certainly are volunteer officers who get their positions by being "everybody's friend" but there are also many volunteer officers who work hard for their positions, take the courses, write the tests, and pay their dues, just like career fire fighters. I might add there are a fair number of career fire fighters who get hired and get their rank because they are the son of a former chief, or the brother of an officer. It happens.
I do think that some people here should read "Fire Command" by Alan Brunacini. It is one of the best resources for Fire Ground Mamagement I have read. There are some good lessons to be learned from it. I do not believe he states anywhere in the book that volunteer officers are of a lower class that career, or that they should not command career fire fighters. That is just insane. Here is Brunacinis' definition of a FGC (Fireground Commander)- "The person who assumes overall command and control of personnel and apparatus at the emergency incident scene. He (or she) assumes the role of commander and manager, operating at the strategic level." Please note... it does not say MUST BE A PAID GUY TO QUALIFY!!! So to my fellow fire fighters, get over it. An officer is an officer is an officer. If he or she gives an order that is totally off the wall or unsafe, then you have a problem. Believe me, I have been in that situation with career and volunteer IC's. Until then, do your job, and if you don't like it.....QUIT!!!!!!

Stay safe.

FF882

[CanMan24]

FF882,

AMEN to that brother.....You pretty much took the words out of my mouth and summed it all up in a nut shell about how the Chain of Command SHOULD operate!! By the way.....Brunacini is a GREAT man, with that book being excellent!! I have met him numerous times at different expos and clinics, and he is a great conversationalist. I wish that ALL firefighters could think like him, maybe there wouldn't be all the hard-ons in the fire service. Hopefully your post will make some of the knuckleheads on here think a little!! Can I get an AMEN!!

Be Safe,
"We do this so others may live....And because we LOVE IT"

[Scene25]

Drop the ego's, and do your jobs. Paid or Volunteer, work together to do what is right. Save lives and property, protect and serve, Ego's make me laugh. Who's better and who isnt. Whats right and whats wrong. WHO CARES!!!

[Bri]

An IC is an IC. Doesn't matter if they are paid or volly. Where I work we are surronded by a lot of volunteer departments. Most of us drop the egos and work well together. Being career or volunteer does not make you better then the other. It is your training, education, exprience, and most importantly your ability to perform that counts.

[Smoke286]

I thought this thread had died long ago. In our jusisdiction aint no volunteer incident commanders. Firtst arriving Captain from our Dept takes over. I should add I've never heard of any complaints from any of the 10 or so volunteer depts in the area. I guess thats the way they want it. Dont blame them really, to the best of my knowlege there is no training for fire officers in any of the volunteer depts up here

[Brian Dunlap]

Originally posted by ArmyTruckCompany:
<STRONG>Volunteers in Pa. saving millions??? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!! NOT IN MONTGOMERY COUNTY, Pa!!!! My god, there are some volunteer departments there that spend money like it grows on trees!!! (OR in Taxpayers trees!!!) What I want to know is, why do some of these (so-called money saving) volunteer houses spend 400 or 500,000 on a new pumper, and up to 900,000 on a new ladder truck, when the one they have now is perfectly fine?? Oh my gawd!!! The 9 year old ladder truck with 13,000 miles on it got a scratch!!! CALL PIERCE!!! DON'T PUT IT OUT TO BID!! SOMEONE MAY OUTBID PIERCE!!!......Then there's the time-honored tradition of....."Hmmmmmmm...Company X just got a brand new Rescue truck...bigger than ours...We better nip that in the bud"....."Hello, Seagrave??.....We have us a problem here....." (ooops, don't put that one out to bid, either, we want Seagrave...and if someone finds out, we'll just write the specs around Seagrave!!) Volunteers may save in salaries and benefits, but certainly make up for it in overspending on non-needed items!!!!!

</STRONG>

:eek: I have to agree with ArmyTruckCompany on this one....I'm in a Volunteer Department from South Jersey and the Same thing happens in this state with spending...It's out of control and on occassion some companies get jelous of other ones and truck purchases start {Example: A town near mine wants a Ladder Truck They have nothing over two and half stories high but their philosophy is "If we buy a ladder truck than our mutial-aid runs will increase" I have actually herd this from a member there}

[ryates]

The paid guys are going to love this. In New Bern FD The volunteers outrank the paid. You WILL take orders from volunteer officers. Our arrangement works on a staggered level the volunteers and the paid each have their own chiefs and capts and so forth. The volunteer officer always outranks the officer that is paid. However, a paid capt outranks a volunteer Lt. A firefighter or Specialist takes orders from ANYBODY wearing a yellow hat. It all goes down to responsiblity. Our charter staes that The volunteer chief is in charge and this has been held up by our Town Board of Aldermen. I have no problem taking orders from any one that is above me regardless of age or career status.
We proved to the city manager just last year that the volunteer training was better than the paid. As long as the training is the same (and here it is) we are all firefighters at the scene. We are all taking the same risks and doing the same jobs. Our volunteers do not just direct traffic, we get up close and personal with the smoke and heat.

[Fyrfytr24]

Chief Montgomery

I believe your issue should be more with the leadership and the abilities of the officers
in charge at an incident. I, like you have seen several near misses caused by the leadership of both career and volunteers. I've been both a career and volunteer for just over 13 years. I am a federal firefighter and we are surrounded by volunteer departments and have a pretty good working relationship with them. My concern when we run with the volunteers is that I may have to take orders from an 18 year old kid that may have just got out of firefighter 1 six months ago and the only fire thay have seen has been a few bails of stray burning in a burn building, but because they work hard around the firehouse they're appointed into an officer position. In that situation you have to do what you think is right fall back on your training and experience and watch out for you and yours. If you feel a situation isn't safe and someone may die as a result of being unsafe pull them out and deal with the B.S later reguardless if the orders come from a career or vollie officer. Going home at the end of your shift is the most important thing!!

Staf safe

[sloepoke1]

Chief Montgomery,

I believe that this topic should be about training and everyone that has a problem with taking orders from either career or volly officers, needs more! Thats right I said you need more training in taking orders. If this is a problem then your respective training officers needs to set up several inter-department training sessions. Having the officers interacting with each other. The troops will learn to work together easier if they see leadership working together. :D

[BucksEng91]

Where I work as a volunteer, we don't have many career people around us...and don't really want 'em... :D Just kidding - I can feel the IAFF breathing down my neck!

Actually, in the few cases where I've worked incidents with the few paid guys that work in some nearby communities, they took orders from the volunteer IC just like everyone else. It's simply a non-issue where I am. You either have the training, or your don't. Just because the township gives you a $300 check each week doesn't necessarily mean you have what it takes to be an IC. And just because you do it for "the love of it", and you'd never take money to do this thing you love so much, doesn't necessarily mean you have what it takes to be an IC.

It comes down to experience. That trumps everything, all the time. Generally, the people who hold positions of authority, in either paid or volunteer organizations, are there because they have the experience. I'd take orders from either - doesn't matter to me. And it shouldn't matter to anyone if the experience is there.

It's just that ego thing - and everyone knows we have buckets of it to spare.

Be safe!

[Double_Local]

In the military, rank is rank, regardless of full time or part time (reserves) status.

Requirements should be the same for ranks, with the possible exception of specialty training (EMS, Haz-Mat, Rescue)

NFPA 1710 should apply everywhere, any exceptions shouldn't be based on vol/career, but on density / population protected. (i.e. low density rural vs. med density suburban va. high density urban)

[Smokey07]

In our outer suburbs of Melbourne in Australia we also have the Vol and Profesional firefighter problems. Out here we respond to the fires in the volly areas, put the fires out and when they finally manage to get a crew on nuffer vollys together we let the do all the cleaning up and we go back to station. i reckon if they want to push water and mop up at grass fires and stuff, they can have it. they never get to actually fight a fire as they are never available. The average volenteer responce time here in melbourne Victoria is between 15 and 40 minutes to get on scene. If it wernt for professional firefighters, haf the city would have been on fire for the last 20 years.

Cheers

Rob

[Rescue101]

Dr. Inferno,I hope you're not suggesting from your post that you wouldn't take orders from a non career officer for that reason.If as the CO,I were to call you for mutual aid and you responded and refused to take orders from me because I'm a paid call and you're a full time what do you think the results are gonna be?Especially when I have 30+ years in protecting this district and you have say 10 yrs as career?Do you really think you have a better vision of the problem than I do?Pardon me if I'm dubious.There are excellent officers on both sides of the fence as well as some not so good.For what it's worth I've also served as a career FF.T.C.

[ejfd30]

Boys and Girls, STOP, When we get down to it, the fire is what we are fighting, not each other! Vol/part time or "pro", it (the fire) does not care.

God Bless America
and All Firefighters
:o

[CaptZ3167]

AHMEN!

Here we (vollies) have the same training as the full time people, only differnce is I work another job and am on call 27/7, 365 days a year, fulltime..10 days a month. yes they may have more runs..but by no means any better than the vollies.

As far as being in charge...if IC is Full time fine, If IC is a vollie fine...job needs to be done, everyone will have a differnt way of doing things, as long as the job gets done and no one gets killed..then it's all good. be safe

[mpeltier]

Having been both vol/paid call and now paid I have come to realize a couple of things. Any man/woman willing to give up his time for free to do this job has all of my respect in the world. Those departments that have the money are blessed, most are not and have sub-par equipment and they make do w/what they have. I think paid does it better because your job is to be trained and to train constantly, not trying to train after you just worked 8 hours to support a family. Either way, I don't care if the man with the red or white hat gets paid or not. I sit backwards and the only decisions I truly need to make are the ones that ensure me and mine get back on the truck and go home safe after the call, paid or not.

[blackb16]

dr inferno posted that paid departments have lower fire insurance than volunteer departments. Would you care to post a source for that statement?

Here is a source that sets virtually all the insurance rates in the US. They say community rating not whether a department is paid or volunteer is what matters.
Loss per $1000 valuation
Source: ISO™
Class Commercial Residential
1 $0.25 $0.37
2 $0.30 $0.37
3 $0.35 $0.42
4 $0.37 $0.45
5 $0.38 $0.49
6 $0.45 $0.55
7 $0.55 $0.75
8 $0.60 $0.7 9 $0.68 $0.79
10 $0.85 $1.10

The volunteers have for departments and on average better ISO rates. Look no further than Delaware with two total fully career departments. Or compare New Jersey and California. In fact some of the best FD's and lowest insurance rates areheldby volunteer and combination departments.

What is funny is when the standards for paid and volunteers are the same everyone gets along fine. Take example, California, Nevada. When someone requests 200 strike teams, no one cares if they are paid or volunteer because everyone had to jump through the same hoop to get on the list to be called.

"volunteer houses spend 400 or 500,000 on a new pumper, and up to 900,000 on a new ladder truck, "

Gee, FDNY just paid $900,000 for a new ladder and over 400K on engines. YOu don't wantr to know what they paid for the heavy rescues.

"!!) Volunteers may save in salaries and benefits, but certainly make up for it in overspending on non-needed items!!!!!"

Well, you certaily didn't make your case above. If communities want volunteers in exchange for good fire services and newer better fire trucks than some of their paid brethren all the power to them. That is what being an American is all about. Choice. The people vote the vollys buy. Gee, just like a paid department.

"In regards to the "Fireact", if it wasn't for the Fire Unions lobbying for this, the money would not have been reinstated. "

Reinstated? 5 billion requested and only 100million dolled out. OK the union saved the fire service. And what difference did the FIRE ACT money make? A whopping 53 dollars per firefighter. Everyone got a pair if gloves or something?

United we grow, divided we stay right here where we've always been.

[DrInferno]

Lovelock: To start off ISO doesn't mean anything where I live in regards to the fire service. I said that "I'm certain that insurance companies have done studies to say that a career department would have saved them money." I didn't quote any one so I'm the source and it is fairly logical. Picture a volunteer department that can't get any more than 1 truck out of the station going to a structure fire you have to admit that the dollar loss is going to be higher than if a career fire department was ready at the station. Hell they could be on the fireground before the first volunteer got to the station so right away the fire could still be in it's incipient stage. Remember fire doubles its size every minute so every minute counts. As for your comparisons with the fire trucks I have no clue as to what you mean besides a fire truck doesn't put out the fire a well trained available firefighter does. As for the fire act being reinstated if the union didn't lobby for it then those volunteer stations wouldn't have gotten anything. By the way it says they may hire 75,000 new career firefighters in the U.S. so get your resume out, because there is no way a proud career man would slam the union like you did in that statement about the union saving the fire service.

[Bishop10]

Greetings,

Lovelock, apparently, your F.D. like mine did not get a federal grant.

In reference to the Fire Act, it is very true that the Fire Unions lobbied to get this through. Granted, the amount awared was only 100 million, but it was a start. And that "comment" about this FireAct comes down to every firefighter getting $53.00 to buy a pair of gloves? Childish remark................IF, you look at some of the grants awarded, there were some LARGE amounts going to some F.D.'s, in particular volunteer. Maybe on the next go around our respective F.D.'s will get an award.

As for ISO........apparently Dr Inferno's comment was very much distorted by you. And also in reference to ISO, I thought that the highest number assigned would be a "9", not a ten. If there are not any hydrants, all F.D.'s start out at a "9". As soon as you place hyrdants in a district, the number drops down to a "6". From there, to obtain a better ISO rating, ALL factors come into play. Especially staffing. But they look at all aspects (i.e. training, hose loads, mutula aid pacts, etc.....) So, if you are going to quote someone, please quote accordingly and have your facts available.

[Callihan]

As a volunteer chief (an Educator by job) I find it appalling that people are taking sides on this matter. Our paid professionals run mutual with our department and many other departments in the area. As IC I look to them for their knowledge and experience (I have 18 yrs vollie exp.) and use them as another tool at my disposal. As for Volunteer Departments spending too much money, I wish we had that kind of money to spend. Our area must be blessed with Fire Departments that do not want to replicate services, in effect spreading the money we do have, and making our community better. Career firefighters have chosen thier profession just as volunteers have chosen to volunteer and neither group should be made to feel inferior. As far as the fire loss argument that career firefighters have lower insurance loss...show me the study. I would have to believe it to be the same..I could be wrong. God bless all who partake in this honorable endeavor to make our communities safe.

[PAVolunteer]

Dr. Inferno ... picture a volunteer company that can get an 8 man engine crew and a 6 man truck crew out w/in 4 minutes at night. No, I am not exaggerating. Daytime, 6 man engine crew and 4 man truck crew w/in 4 minutes. Sure beats the 3 man engines and two man engines (that are running as trucks) in the nearby paid world. Is paid better someplaces? Yes. Is volunteer better some places? Absolutely. Deal with it.

Stay Safe

[FF E5]

WOW!! What a mess, but I can see both sides of the picture. I'm presently employed in an all career department. I spent 9 years in a combination department(as a paid firefighter) and 3 years volunteering in a DC suburb prior to that. I don't think the mutual aid issue is a problem. You do as you are told as long as you aren't gonna get hurt. The real problem is in a combination dept., the one I worked in as well as the state of Georgia has no real qualifications to be an officer except to be popular! There is nothing more fustrating or dangerous than listening to a MORON that wears a white hat and doesn't have a clue to what really needs to be done. The DC area has some of the most exprienced and qualified volunteers I've ever come in contact with. It all revolves around required training for all officers, career and volunteer. They should be required to meet the same basic standards so that there is no question.

[DrInferno]

PA Volunteer: Good for you and your community. I live in an area that is presently protected by composite(Combination)staffing during the day time. Fortunatly they can provide decent service as well but I can say that the neighbouring municipalities aren't so lucky. Fortunatly the community that pays my wages has been wise enough to implement minimum manning so a 3 man engine is non-existant. But the question posed was Career people taking orders from a volunteer officer and I can't see how it makes sense that a fellow who is a ______ (fill in the blank) by trade has more fire ground knowledge and skill then a fellow who goes to work every day in the fire house. I would imagine that in most businesses of today that it is logical thinking that the full time employee would most likely manage the part time employees. I don't think that is really a hard concept to grasp.

[PAVolunteer]

Dr. Inferno, if this isn't such a hard concept to grasp, then why can't you grasp jurisdiction? If the volunteers call in the paid guys, then the volunteers have command. If the paid guys call in the volunteers, then the paid guys have command. It's real simple, if you get an order from command, whether it's paid or volunteer command, and it's gonna get you killed, you don't do it. Otherwise, follow command's authority.

Here's a scenario, what if the volunteer officer in command is also a 30 year paid guy in the neighboring city. Then what do you do? Do you get a resume from who ever is running command before you decide whether or not you will listen to them? There are plenty of volunteers who take the volunteer fire service, and the training that goes along with it, much more seriously than some paid guys who are just doing it for a paycheck. Before I get my head ripped off, the paid guys who are like that are in the minority, but they are there.

When we go into the city, we listen to the paid guys. When the paid guys come out of the city, they listen to us. It works for them. It works for us. Everyone's happy.

It ain't rocket science, figure it out.

Stay Safe

[Adze39]

The Authority Having Jurisdiction is in charge. The end. If the AHJ happens to be a volunteer organization then so be it, they are in charge unless they give up command. And that works the opposite way too, if a volunteer department assists a career department. All this "well, I'm career so I don't have to listen to a volunteer" and "well, I'm a volunteer so I don't have to listen to a career" is just an asinine mindset.

I've taken classes filled with both career and volunteer personnel. These classes were taught by both career and volunteer firefighters. Noone said "I'm not going to listen to what he taught because he's a career/volunteer firefighter and I am a volunteer/career firefighter." If group A is good enough to teach group B, then why can't group A take orders from group B on the fireground?

Bishop: ISO ratings do go up to a 10. "A Class 10 indicates no creditable fire protection is available within 5 miles." ("Your Next ISO Rating"; page 3; updated October 15, 2001)

The ratings that Lovelock quoted are straight out of the manual that Larry Stevens wrote. (You can find it at www.isoslayer.com, (http://www.isoslayer.com,) called "Your Next ISO Rating", page 4 has the chart)

[truckie_ladderco_147]

Dr inferno enough!You show your ignorance in your last post.My chief(god forbid a volly chief at that) knows the same as the career guys in the neighboring depts!If not more than!We train to the IFSTA standards and are you ready for this mr ****y?We can walk in and challenge the Firefighter II test with our training!So before you go off half ****ed I suggest you get a grip!We should be working together but God forbid we do that.Grow up and get to know those departments around you.You might be suprised to find out that some of their guys know more than you.

[DrInferno]

Truckie ladder co 147:To begin not in any of my posts do I defame the volunteer fire service. I believe if you read my first post I even mention that I have no problems with the volunteer service and even have friends in volunteer departments. I'm sorry if you find my view offensive but my understanding of the selection of officers can very much be a popularity contest and that in itself seems an accident waiting to happen. As for getting to know the neighbouring departments I do know them and have created working relationships with them, but they are under direction of paid personnel so we do not have this problem. Before my department became full time (24 hour staffing)it was structured that a career man was higher in rank even if a volunteer had more seniority. Before you go off on this it was because the career staff had regular training and drills while the volunteer staff had training if they chose to attend, plus the amount of time they were called in was limited so they could of had 10 years of seniority but only may have attended a handful of incidents to garner any experience anyway. As for my ignorance I'm ignorant as to where there is any ignorance in my last post?

[Jeff Hendricks]

Why dont you "VOLLIES" go back to the "VOLLIE" posts so we union brothers can talk smack about ya? No hard feelings but it seems as theres more of you in the paid/ career section than there are of us.

[PAVolunteer]

EKUK, get used to it. There are more of us everywhere ... and some of us actually know what we're doing. If you want to have an intelligent debate, both sides of the story must be represented. Otherwise, it ain't much of a debate now is it?

Stay Safe

[Brian Dunlap]

I too have been involved with a career department {Paid Per-diem for five years} and with various volunteer departments for almost 12 years. I can sum this up pretty simply. If the first arriving officer is a volunteer he/she commands the scene until relieved by a higher ranking officer {if any exist} The same applies on the Career Side. Example: If I'm a Volunteer Chief responding in my town that is either served by career personnel to suppliment my volunteers or the first in mutial aid company happens to be all career the command chain is simple ~ I'm in charge..My town my fire...I give the orders ~ Right - wrong - good - bad- or in-diffrent If the Career company can't or doesn't want to follow orders just because I work Full time at the Hardware Store they can pack up and go home. The same applies if I am a Career Captain and a Volunteer Lieutenant shows up and trys to run the scene...Wrong I am the higher ranking officer and that Volunteer Lieutenant can go home. See where I'm going with this ? The highest ranking department official of that particular community is in charge no matter if they're career or volunteer there should be no question or argument to this. :D :D :D

[CDP1967]

Just to add my thoughts on the matter, I know what I have done to obtain my rank,exams, study, years of service. Yet what are the REQUIREMENTS for a volounteer f/f to attain rank, in Australia it is only to be the most popular with his/her crew. We have Mutual Aid Agreements in place but these dont always work, the same with common sense, it doesnt always get used. some volounteers I have encountered and worked with have a chip on their shoulder and wont recognise my experience and expertise and it doesnt matter what is said they wont listen on principal.
I feel this has been a problem for a long time and will remain a problem long after I am gone.


Chris

[FyredUp]

How long will this meaningless debate go on?

If you go into a community on mutual aid that community owns the incident, period. No mutual aid company can take that jurisdiction away. And only a fool would relinquish command in his own community. After all that home town commander will be held ultimately responsible for what happened at that incident. Now, that is not to say that you won't seek out advice from people with technical expertise, or more experience.

I am a career firefighter in a medium sized city. We run mutual aid with a few volly FD's here and whoever's community it is it is their incident. Of course our duty chief has the right to withdraw our FF's if something is happening that may place them in harms way unneccessarily. But you know what...we have that same option when we mutual aid with the neighboring paid FD's.

I am a volunteer fire chief in the community I live in. It is far enough away where my being a volly doesn't have a chance of my FD responding into the city I work in. Believe me, if a fire department came into my community mutual aid and tried to either take over or refuse to follow orders they would be told they are no longer required and that they should leave...immediately. Again I will listen to and seek out advice from those with more expertise than me, but I will not give up my command, because I can't give up my liability.

Perhaps those of you who don't want to listen to I.C.'s that are vollies should get your communities to drop out of mutual aid agreements and go it alone. Then the issue never would come up. Sounds kind of ridiculous doesn't it?

Take care and stay safe,

Fyredup

[par/fire/1627]

THERE IS ONE THING THAT THE VOLLIES WILL SIMPLY NEVER UNDERSTAND. FOR PAID FIREFIGHTERS THIS IS OUR JOB. THIS IS HOW WE FEED OUR FAMILIES, KEEP A ROOF OVER OUR HEAD, AND PAY OUR BILLS. IF A VOLUNTEER SCREWS UP AT A EMERGENCY SCENE OR MAKES A TACTITCAL DECISION THAT DOESN'T AGREE WITH THE CHIEF'S WAY OF THINKING, WHAT HAPPENS TO HIM? PROBALBLY NOT ALOT, VOLUNTEER DEPARTMENTS CAN'T AFFORD TO LOSE PEOPLE, SUSPENSIONS OR DISMISALS DON'T HAPPEN. EVEN IF THAY DID GET KICKED OFF, THEY DON'T NEED TO WORRY ABOUT THE HOUSE PAYMENT OR THE GROCERY BILLS GETTING PAID.
IF A PAID FIREFIGHTER MAKES A MISTAKE HE HAS TO SUFFER THE PUNISHMENT. THAT MAY MEAN SUSPENSION OR GETTING FIRED. THEN THEY MUST WORRY ABOUT HOW TO PAY THE MORTGAGE AND HOW TO FEED THEIR KIDS.
I DON'T KNOW ANY VOLUNTEERS THAT WOULD STAND BY AND WATCH THEIR PAYING JOBS BE TAKEN OVER BY SOMEONE DOING IT FOR FREE. THE POINT IS THAT WHEN VOLUNTEER FIRE COMPAINES COME ON SCENE AND DO WHATEVER THEY FEEL IS NECESSARY, DESPITE WHAT THE PAID DEPARTMENT HAS ASKED THEM TO DO, THE PAID STAFF MUST SUFFER FOR THE VOLLY MISTAKES.

[BFD196]

par/fire/1627, I have a feeling that the volunteers your making your points on are very unprofessional, but I`ve still got stuff to say.

THERE IS ONE THING THAT THE VOLLIES WILL SIMPLY NEVER UNDERSTAND. FOR PAID FIREFIGHTERS THIS IS OUR JOB. THIS IS HOW WE FEED OUR FAMILIES, KEEP A ROOF OVER OUR HEAD, AND PAY OUR BILLS.

What is so difficult to understand about that? It is your job, as volunteers we should all respect that.

IF A VOLUNTEER SCREWS UP AT A EMERGENCY SCENE OR MAKES A TACTITCAL DECISION THAT DOESN'T AGREE WITH THE CHIEF'S WAY OF THINKING, WHAT HAPPENS TO HIM? PROBALBLY NOT ALOT,

Wrong, if a volunteer screws up at a scene, and needs to be disciplined, whatever is neccesary will be done.

VOLUNTEER DEPARTMENTS CAN'T AFFORD TO LOSE PEOPLE, SUSPENSIONS OR DISMISALS DON'T HAPPEN.

Wrong again, they do happen. It`s a lot better running a department with 1 less guy, than with that guy running around and causing problems.

IF A PAID FIREFIGHTER MAKES A MISTAKE HE HAS TO SUFFER THE PUNISHMENT. THAT MAY MEAN SUSPENSION OR GETTING FIRED. THEN THEY MUST WORRY ABOUT HOW TO PAY THE MORTGAGE AND HOW TO FEED THEIR KIDS.


Yes, but suspensions and getting fired don`t happen unless you do something wrong that warrents it. Your not going to get fired for doing something incorrectly at a fire scene. Suspensions are for those who misbehave, not make perfectly human mistakes.

THE POINT IS THAT WHEN VOLUNTEER FIRE COMPAINES COME ON SCENE AND DO WHATEVER THEY FEEL IS NECESSARY, DESPITE WHAT THE PAID DEPARTMENT HAS ASKED THEM TO DO, THE PAID STAFF MUST SUFFER FOR THE VOLLY MISTAKES.

It would be sad to see that paid department suffer. If volunteers arrive on scene at your fire, they should listen to your IC, not do what they please. If that`s happening, there are serious command problems with those volunteers.

Where I live it`s simple, if we go mutual aid to the paid departments, they`ve in charge, no questions asked. Even if we arrive on scene first, it still works that way. If they run mutual aid with us, or they`re called in, we`re in charge no questions asked. They always send their chief which is fine by us. We had a fire a few weeks ago, where we called in extra help from the paid guys. They`re deputy simply commanded the work of his guys, but anything they did, was only because our IC said to do it. If they were to start opening the roof, or stretching lines without our commanding officers permission, there would be serious problems.

[ 11-12-2001: Message edited by: BFD45 ]

[PAVolunteer]

par/fire/1627 - if volunteer companies are coming into your area and doing whatever they want and screwing up, etc. - kick them out, or don't invite them in the first place. What's the issue?

If they are doing this in their own territory, that's their and their community's problem. If you come into their territory, and they give you a dumbass assignment, don't do it. Follow the chain of command, if the order is ridiculous or unsafe, advise command of the unsafe condition, if command still insists, place yourselves out of service and go home.

Saying things like "Things that the vollies will never understand" is just ridiculous. BFD45 already said it pretty well, so I'll end it here.

Stay Safe

[par/fire/1627]

BFD45 AND PA VOLUNTEER: YOU ARE BOTH VERY CORRECT IN ALL YOUR STATEMENTS. I MUST ADMIT THIS IS A LOCAL PROBLEM THAT HAS LEFT A BAD TASTE IN MY MOUTH. THERE ARE GOOD AND BAD DEPARTMENTS BOTH PAID AND VOLUNTEER. IN MY AREA THESE ATTITUDES AND BEHAVIORS DO HAPPEN. MY DEPARTMENT IS NOT PERFECT BY A LONG STRETCH. REPORTING THESE THINGS TO COMMAND DO NO GOOD, AFTERWARDS THE LEADERS OF THE FIRE DEPARTMENT(CAPTAINS AND CHIEFS) EITHER IGNORE THE PROBLEM OR ACTUALLY PROMOTE IT. WHAT IS AN EMPLOYEE TO DO? CAN'T AFFORD TO QUIT, SO GUYS HAVE TO WATCH THEIR BACK AND WORK TO CHANGE THINGS DOWN THE ROAD MAYBE.
MY MAIN POINT WAS THAT IF YOUR AREA WORKS WELL TOGETHER BE GRATEFUL BECAUSE THERE ARE A LOT OF PLACES WHERE THINGS SIMPLY DON'T FLOW. THIS PROBLEM DIDN'T HAPPEN OVERNIGHT IS TOOK YEARS TO DEGRADE TO THIS LEVEL. TO THOSE OF YOU OUT THERE ARE WHO HAVE HAD BAD ENCOUTERS WITH A PAID DEPARTMENT, REMEBER THAT THEIR MEAL TICKET IS THE JOB. IT MAY GIVE YOU A DIFFERENT PERSPECTIVE ON WHY THEY ACT THE WAY THEY DO.

[truckie_ladderco_147]

Things are different all over.We suspended a guy onm y vollie dept that was a career guy.He was in violation of our rules.We have also suspended many others.Our dept follows the rules to the letter.but if it is a minor infraction the chief will talk to you first.If no improvement then see ya.But par keep tryin to change the climate.See if you can get your IAFF to help o get a group of the guys together to try to effect a change. Good luck.

[truckie_ladderco_147]

ok doc the ignorance is the fact that you lumped a lot of vollies together.Our dept is a very hands on training intense dept.We run more calls out of our station than in order from east to west of the full time depts,the entire 3 stations of dept a 2 stations of dept b and 2 stations of dept c.We are not slamming anyone here nor are we saying we are better.But give us some credit before you go lumping everyone into one big group.I know there are vollie depts that see maybe 31 fire calls a year,but if in their town it is their call(sorry just the rules here)
And to batt 66 tough luck.You know there are a lot of career guys that are also vollies.Look in firehouse at some of the author bios of the articles.Paul Hashagen who does the Rekindles articles every month is on Rescue 1 FDNY and Port Chester Volly dept.(last I knew if wrong tie me up and throw me into a room of cute naked FEMALE nurses :D)There was also the story of teh FDNY funeral where the FF's vollie company carried his casket.Now lets all get along.

[BFD196]

par/fire/1627, good luck sorting these problems out. :eek:

[PAVolunteer]

par/fire/1627 - thanks for the explanation. Good luck working things out.

Stay Safe

[rojaig]

I am not sure If my position as a auxillary firefighter lets me participate or not but I wanted to add my two axes worth.

I think the Career departments have more opptunity to become better trained due to the fact that they are at the hall for a full shift and are a captive audiance for a training minded department. Keeping that in mind the Auxillary / Volly departments that are also training minded can meet the level that the career depts reach. The level of competance of the IC on the fireground will be a direct result of training and experience. The object is to put out the fire in the quickest, safest way possible. Vol or Career can perform the same function with the same experience and training. The more experienced officer should lend his/her knowledge to the less experienced and that way the objective is met without a debate on who is better.

thanks for hearing me out
Robby

[HHVFD2]

par/fire/1627:
IF A VOLUNTEER SCREWS UP AT A EMERGENCY SCENE OR MAKES A TACTITCAL DECISION THAT DOESN'T AGREE WITH THE CHIEF'S WAY OF THINKING, WHAT HAPPENS TO HIM? PROBALBLY NOT ALOT, VOLUNTEER DEPARTMENTS CAN'T AFFORD TO LOSE PEOPLE, SUSPENSIONS OR DISMISALS DON'T HAPPEN. EVEN IF THAY DID GET KICKED OFF, THEY DON'T NEED TO WORRY ABOUT THE HOUSE PAYMENT OR THE GROCERY BILLS GETTING PAID.
IF A PAID FIREFIGHTER MAKES A MISTAKE HE HAS TO SUFFER THE PUNISHMENT. THAT MAY MEAN SUSPENSION OR GETTING FIRED. THEN THEY MUST WORRY ABOUT HOW TO PAY THE MORTGAGE AND HOW TO FEED THEIR KIDS.
I DON'T KNOW ANY VOLUNTEERS THAT WOULD STAND BY AND WATCH THEIR PAYING JOBS BE TAKEN OVER BY SOMEONE DOING IT FOR FREE. THE POINT IS THAT WHEN VOLUNTEER FIRE COMPAINES COME ON SCENE AND DO WHATEVER THEY FEEL IS NECESSARY, DESPITE WHAT THE PAID DEPARTMENT HAS ASKED THEM TO DO, THE PAID STAFF MUST SUFFER FOR THE VOLLY MISTAKES.

I'm sorry, guys. I can't sit back and read this malarkey any longer without putting in my two-cents worth. And I won't Bore with training and Qual. card resume suffice it to say I've been on both sides and am now a Volunteer CHIEF!!

As for the reprocusions of actions here, they are the same for us as they are for the Paid departments in the nearby cities and we have an average of 3 minute roll-out times for any incident we are called to can you say that you can get any apparatis out the door in 3 or less even sitting in the office?? I have standards to follow that are rival to 1710 and have had them since before you were probably even a glimmer in daddy's eye.

If some kid on a fire sene decided to countermand me or my IC in my Fire district whether Paid (profesional?) or Volunteer he'd be removed from my scene under his own power or not. This is not to be taken as a "That Dumb Cook" statement, it's just fact as the District Fire Chief I have an obligation to protect life and property within said district and I will do so utilizing any and all needed resourses at my disposal.

As for the loss of revenue you Might accrue perhaps you should look into a Volunteer Hall sometime. I have a very dedicated TEAM, that is around the station as much as 5 days a week in their off-time to study train for the possibilty of calls requireing something extra. I've been a paid man and now I volunteer because the county that I'm in WILL NOT support even one paid/pampered snot-nosed brat with a god complex.

[Bishop10]

Greetings,

HHVFD2, you should tone down your reply just alittle.
Most of us "professional"(career/paid) firefighters are not, as you quote, "pampered snot-nosed brat with a god complex". Alot of volunteers could be called the same thing. This topic did not start out as this, it was a question about taking orders from volunteers. Which you barely touch upon.

How can you, who is a volunteer, let alone a Chief, call yourself "professional"? Comments like that are not acting professional, they just show your ignorance. Maybe your digust for career firefighters is from the fact that you use to be one. And to dig deeper, maybe you were fired, laid off, or even quit because you could not handle it............who know, who cares.

As for the "NFPA 1710" thing you mentioned. It is great that your department goes to great lengths to rival 1710. But have you even read 1710? How about 1720 which applies the Volunteer service? And as for response times, my job, we get out of the door in under a minute once dispatched, while sitting in the office.

As for your great team, how old is your crew? Do they have families to take care of? I remember when I use to vollie years ago, no one would jeopordize there job to go on runs. Usually kids would have to take the runs because they were the only ones around during the day because they didn't work. So don't go slamming a career guy because of his concern for his job and putting food on the table for his family.

[FP&LS Guy]

I think what some of you may be forgetting is that this isn't about that fact that this is your job .... or that you are doing this because you enjoy it .... The Fire Service is about people's lives. And the people the Fire Service exists for is the people you serve.

This isn't about any one of us, this is about the service we are providing. If you are not concerned about what you are doing, and taking pride in what you are doing, then you should just leave.

This applies to career, volunteer, per-diem, whatever.

:p

[DrInferno]

Brother Bishop you beat me too it!!!!! My sentiments exactly. Sounds like someone has an axe to grind with the career fire service. I hope he doesn't manage his people with the same tactics as he speaks in here. Belittleing someone only breeds animosity and does absolutely nothing in the way of creating a positive environment to work in. Could this person be the chief due to his skills or a popularity contest? Don't matter either way as attitude like that will leave you with no one to manage or your ***** at the curb. Oh by the way when we are "sitting around the office" we can get out the door in under 60 seconds too, hell we can be on scene in under 3 minutes for a majority of our responses.

[Brian Dunlap]

I'm going to chime in here and agree with FP&LS Guy and dr. inferno ~ Look ladies and gentlemen we are all in this together whether we volunteer to do it such as I do or collect a salary for it. ~ We need to drop this "us vs. them" or "them vs. us" attitude and just go out there and get the job done ! As far as who takes orders from whom ? thats pretty simple....Who evers local the Fire is in {Career Department or Volunteer Department} holds the command. Meaning that if the fire is in the Career Local the Volunteers report to to the Career I.C. and take orders from there and if the Fire is in Volunteer Local the Career Staff including chief officers {If they respond} report to to the Volunteer I.C. and take orders from there....Thats that plain and simple and either group that doesn't like it take their fire engine and go home. We are All part of one Family here....THE FIREFIGHTERS OF AMERICA FAMILY....So this fighting back and forth Bull Sh** needs to stop once and for all.....Web-Team ought to shut this thread down it's out of control which I saw begin to happen from the start !

:mad: :mad: :mad:

[MikeF25]

I have never posted in here as I am Vol. but I would like to say not all Vol. depts. go out and by new rigs cause they have a scratch. We have mid 70's Macks that aren't gong anywhere for awhile. Paid vs. Vol. it is a stupid arguement, we all fight fire, we all do our best to save lives and property, and how many of you paid guys started as Vol., though I do believe Vol. have one advantage over SOME paid guys as we do it cause we love to again SOME paid guys do it for money. Though most of us would love to be paid some of us don't have the luxury. Dosen't mean we don't have the talent the skill or the exerience.

One question though: If a paid guy for some reason quits and decides he wants to be Vol. later in life does that make him any less of a F.F.?

It seems too me and I may be way off on this, but just like an electrical union, U.A.W. or anything else they are against anything that is not union.

I don't care who is in charge as long as they treat me with the respect they treat their people with.

I also would like to thank you for allowing me to post in your forum.

[firehousefreak]

Cough-bull****-Cough....I'm better than you, were better than them.... Did the fire get put out? Did a life get saved? Yes? Ok, jobs done, shut-up already. What the hell is the point your trying to get at? There is none, someone ALWAYS has to whine and complain! <img src="rolleyes.gif" border="0">

[lutan1]

Regardless of volunteer or paid staff, PROVIDED the person in charge has the qualification/certification to do what they're doing, then let them.

If a more qualified person comes onto scene, then hand over, or mutually run the scene and learn from each other.

Theres so many barriers put up by people when it comes to paid vs volunteering- we've all got a job to do. Do it!

[ESDA-20]

Holy cow. You guys act like a bunch of children on a playground fighting over who gets to play with the ball.

Volenteers spending money like trees? Sure. Right. My local emergency services unit has a budget of less then 2000.00 a year right now. The local career, metro department, buys a new truck EVERY YEAR. The arguement goes both ways. You can point and whine and say stuff, but the fact of the matter is, it goes both way guys.

My volenteer fire chief has 20 years of firefighting experiance. My career chief has 25+ years of experiance on the fire ground. Who would I want to command a fire scene? Either! They're both firefighters, both have gone to the same fire classes, both have the same certifications as required by state policy, both are old farts who can grunt and point at the burning building and say "FIRE!".

Grow up, yeesh. The toy ball is -mine-!

[Smoke286]

This debate will never be settled, In my opinion the problem is that most volunteer firefighters have no idea what it is like to work in a large professional fire dept in an urban setting. So they relate the paid argument instead to the small sub-urban paid or composite depts in their area. To them, they seem to do a similar job so they resent any implied feelings of superiority put forth by these paid firefighters. As for the reaction of many paid firefighters when they read here there are situations out there where Volunteers can be in command of paid firefighters, well you may excuse their incredulity if you realize that in many cases a less then active volunteer might have to go 20 years before amassing the experience a Professional F/F with an urban Dept might get in one.

[engine1321]

My, my, my.... how the brotherhood of fire fighters divides when it comes to who's in charge. In my area, we have a standardized SOP about this issue. It states:

"Whenever a company from a neighboring district is summoned to the mutual aide of another, the absolute incident commander shall be an officer from the district which requested assistance."

And just in case you are not familiar with Greene County, Ohio, only 2 out of 14 districts are fully paid, 1 is paid plus part-time, and the other 11 departments are part-time with volunteers. So as you can see, such an occurance is very common.

[Fitguy51]

Engine 1321 it works the same way in my FD. But we dont usually run w/ the career FD's. They will call other career from farther away than call a VFD. We responded once, when an airliner took a nose dive in the city. I guess they just needed all those rescue tools the we have. But to quote a career Captain I met at the NYS Fire Academy "Firefighters are like plumbers, there are some good ones and some bad ones."

[Fire139Engine12]

What ever happened with "firefighter?" That's what we do and that's what we are. It all depends on the person and not the $$$$. You career guys, most of you were volunteers at one point. You volunteer guys, you fight the fire right? I lived in a county in Florida where there was a big problem with career vs volunteer. That career department was volunteer for many years and only a few years ago went paid. All those members who were picked up to the paid force all became total jerks. Firehouse I believe shouldn't even have the Career/Paid and Volunteer sections. That is not helping the battle here at all. Who ever made the statement of beating you chest, and what a good job you for free or what not needs to stop beating his chest. Yes this is a career/paid forum, but it has gone sour like most things. If you all honestly have problems with it, then do your communities a favor and get out of the fire business. If you only care about the pay check or the free service you offer over getting paid then you really got to spend some time reflecting why you are in the bizz still. I remember in EMT they said get out of the biz if you were burning out or were not providing your 110% care for the patient. If you're not giving your all for you community, god I hope you're not in mine. I love my city and its poor drivers and I provide them with the best my team and myself can. <img src="cool.gif" border="0">

[ 01-08-2002: Message edited by: FF139Engine12 ]</p>

[Shannon6211]

Wow....<br />I sure hope the public doesn't read this forum.<br />I remember taking my standards class, no one there asked if anyone involved was a Vol. or paid firefighter. I didn't see different goals or tasks set up with signs that said vol. or paid on it. Last year at a meeting on the state level for IC no one asked are you a vol. or paid officer. Hmm maybe the level of training and experience could have something to do with who should be in charge. To step back, look at the situation and make and informed decision at how it should be attacked or not to attack ???<br />Professional is designated by the way you perform your duties, work with others, and accomplish your goals. At true professional knows when to step back and allow a more qualified person to take charge and not look at it as a personal insult. Take your time and learn from that person so that you may be the more qualified officer in the future. There are several firefighters in this forum that if in my command would never make it up the ladder of officer training if I was aware of these ego's and mental blocks about the fact that someone receives a paycheck therefore they are more qualified to make a decision. Your thinking may just get one of your people or yourself killed someday. I personally will invite the input from any qualified person at the scene and then make my decision from that point, when I have all the information. I surely would never discredit the informed opinion of a vol. officer or specialist just because they did not receive a paycheck. Hopefully with maturity and experience you too will become a "professional" but some of the opinions expressed here surely do fall short of that definition. Your unwillingness to work with others in the field due to monetary retribution is definitely a shortfall in your character. If you respond to a mutual aid situation and bring this attitude with you, then you would most likely do a better job by refusing to respond. The citizen or community that needs your help will definitely not be getting a full commitment by yourself or the people you lead into the situation if you already are predisposed to this way of thinking on your way into the call.<br />The comments made about discipline and lack of it in a Vol. dept as compared to a paid department are also obviously the remarks made by and ignorant person as well. In today’s world of liability and lawsuits no one is exempt from retaliation from a person that feels you did not do everything within your power to due your duty to protect either their property or them selves. The courts don't care if you are paid or Vol. either.<br />I understand this is a great country, and yes you are more then welcome to your opinions and idea's but please leave them in the locker when you start your shift. If you experience a situation that you feel could be handled in a safer, more effective manor then speak with the person in charge, but spare other firefighters from your misinformed prejudice opinions and maybe open your eyes and ears. You may just find you will be a better firefighter and really can call yourself a professional without dragging us all down with you.

[FFTrainer]

[quote] Wow....<br />I sure hope the public doesn't read this forum.<br /> <hr></blockquote>

Ding, Ding, Ding..... We have a winner!!! Someone who realized that this mindless bantering back and forth on a debate that will never be settled and more importantly that the fire doesn't care about does nothing but hurt our image to the public who is free to read this nonsense at anytime. Yes, the same public who's tax dollars pay the salaries for the career guys and buy the "$900,000" ladder truck that someone accused the vollies of getting.

Let it go!! Did we learn nothing on 9-11?? Did we not learn that regardless of FF (career or vol.), accountant, stock broker or tourist we can all be wiped out by one f'ing wacko!

[kfd26710]

HHVFD2:<br />I work for a strictly 100% paid department and we are enroute with in a minute of dipatch about 95% of the time. We have to be and yes it is possible. So I don't know where you are coming up with it is hard to go enroute with in 3 minutes. Because it gets done every single day.

And the thing with vollies and career on fire scenes.... first of all, if you are on a vollies fire scene and and another department,( we will call them department"X") whether it is paid or volunteer comes to help you out. The person in charge of department "X" is ultimately responsible for his own men. So he needs to decide what is safe and not safe for his men.

If the incident commander of the scene tells department "X" to ventilate on a roof that is unstable, department "X"'s commander has every right to say "NO, WE WILL NOT VENT" and should. But should tell the IC his reasons for doing so.

This may or may not be helpful at all, but I tried. God Bless and be safe to you all.

[FyredUp]

This is like beating a dead horse...the first few wacks may be theraputic but after a while all you get is tired. This post has been on here since June...LET IT GO...

FyredUp

[NFfireman23]

Wow!!

I didnt realize that career FF's and volunteer FF's were suposed to hate each other!!!

[Smoke286]

I didn't realize Volunteers never understood the difference

[PAVolunteer]

What difference?

Stay Safe

[Smoke286]

I rest my case

[FyredUp]

Smoke286:

What was your point? And nice non-answer to the simple question asked.

By the way I am a career FF in a medium sized city and a volly where I live. To me the only difference is the pay. Being professional has nothing to do with geting a paycheck and everything to do with how you approach the job. I know career FF who think a tough day is when you make them get out of the recliner. I also know volly's who won't go if its "inconvenient". On the other hand I know career FF that go to every class and seminar they can even if they don't get paid and in fact have to pay for the class themselves. On that same note I know vollys that after working 8 or 10 hours still show up for training and also go to those same classes, many times paying themselves.

The endless squabbles over this topic are becoming pathetic. Work within your system, respect your brothers and sisters both career and volunteer, and get over it.

FyredUp

[Smoke286]

Fryed Up

Here is my problem, mostly it seems to be perpetuated by people like yourselves who continue giving mis-information to volunteers who do not understand the difference between a professional fire dept. and a volunteer one. You say you work in a "medium sized city" how big is that? Is it a place where "a tough day is when you make them get out of the recliner" I'll bet a lot of us would like to have a tough day like that. I just got home from my last 24 hour shift. I may have gotten 3 hours of sleep. I am not trying to blow my owm horn here. I get paid a fair wage for what I do. I have no problem with volunteer's, I was one myself, and I realize that in some situations they serve a useful purpose But you and people like you are doing the fire service harm in perpetuating the myth that both are the same. Even the NFPA has given up on that. You cannot compare apples to oranges. And people who claim they are the same, and spread this on to the uninitiated are my problem. Does that explain to you what my problem is?

[ 01-19-2002: Message edited by: Smoke286 ]</p>

[FyredUp]

smoke 286,

So you don't sleep much...neither does the volunteer who was out all night fighting a fire and then goes home, showers and goes to work. Fortunately for you and me we have the next day off to recuperate.

My medium sized city is around 50,000 people. We run aound 5000 calls a year. Perhaps not as busy as you...so maybe my department is suspect in your eyes.

As far as the NFPA standards 1710 and 1720...I agree that having seperate standards is a maistake, no a BIG mistake. The way I believe it should have been done is to have one standard and make allowances for response time and such for volunteers. As far as training and other qualifiers I believe they should have been identical.

I don't perpetuate anything. If you can't admit that SOME career FD's are less than professional and SOME volunteer FD's are very professional I feel you live with blinders on. The whole deal is this...we should all provide a professionally trained and qualified FD for our public.

Can't we just let this die? The answer is there will be no answer as long as there are career and volunteer firefighters who just can't see that we are all firefighters trying to do a job.

Take care and stay safe,

FyredUp

[rfcmitch]

Well I am a volunteer but when I was scrolling down through I saw it and just had to know. But I know that around here volunteer departments sometimes are called mutual aid with a paid department. Then vise versa. In my opinion whoever is the first department on scene volunteer or not, is in charge. if they call mutual aid from a paid or volunteer department they should still be in charge. We go through as much training as you do to get the title, and we should be repected for that, as you would expect us to respect you.

[Brian Dunlap]

[quote]Originally posted by FyredUp:<br /><strong>This is like beating a dead horse...the first few wacks may be theraputic but after a while all you get is tired. This post has been on here since June...LET IT GO...

FyredUp</strong><hr></blockquote>

<br />AMEN TO THAT !!!! ---

Ultimatley the Fire {Which is what we should be fighting and not each other...NEWS-FLASH !} doesn't care if the man or woman on the end of that tip is getting a pay check or not, It doesn't care if he/she belongs to a union or not. All it cares about is destroying what ever is in it's path and stopping you and me from stopping it. ~ Some Cities and Towns need Career Fire Fighters and to those men and women...GOD BLESS YOU AND THE JOB YOU DO !! I'M BEHIND YOU 100%...But just because you're paid to fight fires and save lives gives you no right to judge the credibility of a Volunteer.

Some Cities and Towns can not justify a Career Department and must rely on Volunteers and to those men and women...GOD BLESS YOU AND THE JOB YOU DO...But just because you're a Volunteer gives you no right to judge the credibility of a Career Firefighter.

We all put our gear on the same way...ride the same type of equipment...and fight the same kind of hot,dangerous,and deadly fires,haz-mat incidents,ect..This us vs. them bull sh** needs to stop because when you come right down to it....There is no diffrence.....NONE !

<br /> <img src="eek.gif" border="0"> <img src="eek.gif" border="0">

[Brian Dunlap]

I did forget to mention...VOLUNTEERS I AM BEHIND YOU 100% ALSO.....

[Smoke286]

Sure we can let this die, it is a dead issue, until someone comes along and claims that being a volunteer is the same as being a paid professionional firefighter. Which is patently untrue.

[BFD196]

[quote]Originally posted by Smoke286:<br /><strong>Sure we can let this die, it is a dead issue, until someone comes along and claims that being a volunteer is the same as being a paid professionional firefighter. Which is patently untrue.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Nice job, now your going to start another argument. <img src="rolleyes.gif" border="0"> . Your a professional whether your paid, or you volunteer. Though your posts have me going nuts inside, I`ll leave it at that.

[ 01-19-2002: Message edited by: BFD45 ]</p>

[kfd26710]

[quote]Originally posted by Mitch:<br /><strong>Well I am a volunteer but when I was scrolling down through I saw it and just had to know. But I know that around here volunteer departments sometimes are called mutual aid with a paid department. Then vise versa. In my opinion whoever is the first department on scene volunteer or not, is in charge. if they call mutual aid from a paid or volunteer department they should still be in charge. We go through as much training as you do to get the title, and we should be repected for that, as you would expect us to respect you.</strong><hr></blockquote>

I am not disagreeing with you 100%. But I am going to have to disagree with you about the training bit. I have not yet met a volunteer officer yet that has recieved Fire Administration, Legal Aspects, Fire Investigation, HazMat Chenistry, Occupational Health and Safety, Fundamentals of Fire Protection, Fire Protection Systems, Political & Legal Fundamentals of Fire Protection, and Incendiary Fire Analysis & Investigations. Granted, I don't have these qualifications, but I know many at career departments that do. I No volunteer fire department officer that has any. So I am going to have to disagree with the training part that you do as much as career dept's do. Because at many career fire dept's these are REQUIRED to be a officer and or chief officer. FF1 and EVOC just does not cut it.

everything else you have to say sounds great.

God Bless and take care.

[Fire139Engine12]

kfd26710 it all depends in the area. I know a few volunteer officers in the state of Florida that have so many cert and training hours in it hurts to think about it. Lots of the volunteers around that country who really want to and have the time get the training that they need and want. I for one have the equal training to career fireman at my station. (station is split career/vol) Though none of my training means jack since I moved from Florida to New Jersey, and NJ does not recongnize it. Oh well, just means I got to start from square one again to get my F1 which is a step back from my F2. I'm not quite shure if its a local thing or a state thing here much like in other states, but here you only have to be an F1 for career and F1/F2 for officer. Where I was in FL to even think about career you had to have your F2. Really it is depending on your area for training bars. Neither Career or Volunteer FF can know it all and can always make the right decision regardless to training. Who ever is in command should be able to call the shots and who is ever under his/her command should carry them out. If you don't agree with the scene commander then ask questions or suggest alternate ways. If the commander is volunteer and has career as aid or the other way around, and know he/she is unable to make the decisions hopefully he will relieve command to someone who is able to. Good training shows this. Good training and the right training makes it possible for the officers involved to work things out. It doesn't have to be a power hungry thing or career vs volunteer. If I roll up on scene and I am the officer of my engine (representing my station) and I am the aid to a career eninge I am going to talk to the commander and make sure we have good communication. I will also see if he knows if he has his head screwed on right and not making poor decisions by doing this. Same thing if this were to be switched. I have worked on a few fire (brush/structure) with multiple departments with the mix of career and vol and we never had any problems. Off the fire scene was different as far as relationships went, but we all at least knew we had a job to do. I guess depending where you are in the country will determine this, but I knew just about all the FF in my county down in FL and I knew all the officers. Put them all in the same house and make them all paid or all volunteers, you would still get guys who knew it like the back of their hand and get the guys that still can't even tie their own shoes. Basically saying, some guys go through the training but don't listen while some do. That's on both sides, but regardless to if he/she is volunteer/career and knows what the hell he/she is doing, I would listen. Don't start a fire on the scene that isn't going to be put out with water or foam. Just listen, suggest, or what ever, but don't be jerks about it and don't look the other way. That goes to both Vols and Career FFs. Don't under estimate what volunteers have time to do. Some(vols) have their own business or don't even work or what ever and take more classes/more hours of training then you could ever imagine. Some even take F3 and pretty much got everything done (state wise) before they even make Lt or Captain. I don't know, maybe that one area in Florida is truly blessed. lol Just put that damn fire out and help some one. <img src="cool.gif" border="0">

[Smoke286]

Sorry BFD if my posts are causing you any problems. I'm only trying to get people to understand that there are differences between the two avocations. Its just that I hate these blanket statments. "We're all doing the same job"<br />things like that. I even realize that you will never change some peoples minds. They live in their own fantasy world. There are in fact volunteers out there who think there is no difference in what they do and ,to take an extreme example what they average FDNY firefighter does. Because , in reality, they have no idea what the job entails, and they have been fed on propaganda posted here,and elsewhere<br />that claims, boldly that there is no difference between the two. <br /> As I have posted previously, if your only experience with paid firefighting is with small sub-urban and composite Depts ,who do infact perform similar functions to their volunteer neighbours, then perhaps then you may have the mistaken idea that all fire Depts basically do the same thing. But anyone in a volunteer fire dept who puffs out his chest and says, we are all the same , I do the same job as a paid firefighter, without the check. Is just plain deceiving himself. Once again there is no comparison between being a volunteer in a rural or sub-urban enviroment, and being a paid professional firefighter in an urban setting. It is two completly different things. I am not trying to say there is anything wrong with being a volunteer firefighter. I was one for 12 years, and I quite enjoyed it. Its just that working as a paid professional firefighter in an urban setting is a totally separate kettle of fish ,as it were. To be truthful it amazes me that so many volunteers have trouble admiting it. I cartainly understood the difference, when i was a volunteer.

[BFD196]

After reading your post, I see what your saying, and I agree to an extend. I don`t know of many volunteers that do anything like FDNY does, and I do know first hand(well second hand) because a few of our members are FDNY firefighters, so I`ll agree there. But, we are doing the same job, fighting fires, EMS, MVS`s, etc, different departments have just evolved to do it ways taht are best for them.

[PhyerPhyter]

The endless squabbles over this topic are becoming pathetic. Work within your system, respect your brothers and sisters both career and volunteer, and get over it.<br />HERE HERE!! Well Said.<br />"Professional" is not just a paycheque. It is an attitude. I have seen many paid/professional fire fighters make some awfully stupid mistakes. Yes I have seen some volly's make some to. I have seen paid F/D's unable to figure out Positive Pressure Ventilation, Unable to figure out what Level 2 Staging is. Generally in my area Volunteer fire fighters are as good or better trained/experienced because it is the same fire fighters going to all the calls! I know of a Fire Fighter that was a member for 20 yrs on paid/Career dept and never went to a structure fire.<br />IT ALL COMES DOWN TO TRAINING AND EXPERIENCE. IT DOESNT MATTER WHAT JOB PAYS FOR THE FOOD IN YOUR BELLY AND THE ROOF YOU SLEEP UNDER.

Now ya did it, Some one got me going on this rant... HAve a Great Day.

[rfcmitch]

I have only been taking part in this topic for acouple of days and I think its redundant. But I must say one last thing... sure you say we are not the same, maybe we aren't, maybe we are. But sometimes you have to let things go, drop all these f***ing barriers and work with each other. This whole thing about brotherood and stuff. Well. I must say that I now think that there are TWO brotherhoods. Because you sir, Mr. Smoke286, you just made me lose respect for some hard working men and women that are paid firemen, because I have never backed one up so I don't know what thier like but I must base my thesis on your attitude. So you can all to go to h*ll until we stop drawing these damn lines! This goes for both sides, just fight the f*cking fire for heaven sakes! There is a simple solution to everything, you must trust your commanding officer. Regardless.

[FyredUp]

You know I had a really snappy comeback for smoke 286...but to hell with it. As I stated earlier this is like beating a dead horse. So I will let this go because in reality it just simply doesn't matter.

Have a nice day,

FyredUp

[sandycreektwp]

I started out paid and went vol of my own choice.<br /> Scenerio: Mrs. Jones house is on fire--- think she give a damn whether or not paid or vol firefighters show up? Her freakin house is on fire for heavens sake!! <br /> We all go to the same schools and recieve the same training.....what IS the issue here? What, just cuz your paid you're better than a vol.? or just cuz your a vol. you'll do the job better cuz it's something you want to do?<br /> There are vol ff that are much better than paid and the reverse is also true without saying.

My depts mutual aid is a paid dept and their chief despises vol ff. But you know what?, when it's time to get it done, we all try to do the best we can, and that's all you can do until this issue is put to rest in the fire service.

My advice to you, worry about the safety of your brother, Whether he's paid or not! This is surely the last thing on Mrs. Jones mind when she dials 911.<br /> <img src="confused.gif" border="0">

[wjnwjn3]

Lets see, unless I am a career Firefighter no ones better them me and I am better then anyone else, but if my house is on fire I don't care who shows up as long as someone does (Career VS Volunteer). Do you hear yourselves? Why not just be proud of what you do and do it.

I would love to have been a career Fire fighter, but I have a bad eye that would not allow me to pass the Philadelphia FD physical in 1975. And even though my Father died in the line of duty in 1963 as Acting Deputy chief of Philadelphia and a career man for 29 years, I still was not allowed in.

So what did I do, since the Phila FD would not allow me to follow my father foot steps, I became a Volunteer and went to college and got 2 degrees, AA in Fire Science Technology and a BA in Business Administration.

So now that I have all this education including; certification 1 & 2 from the state of PA as firefighter, Certification in arson investigation, certification as a Building Inspector, extensive schooling in vehicle extrication, hazmate, truck operations, pump operations and numerous other schooling and education. Because I am a Volunteer I am still labeled as someone taking away somebody?s job.

Not everybody can be a career FF, but that does not make that person any less qualified then those who are. I have 27 years in the fire service and I put my skills and knowledge up against anyone who believes Volunteers are someone that cannot cut it or for what ever reason you may think.

The last time I checked, I believe we are all here to provide to the same thing and provide service to the community.

Regarding PA Volunteers estimate of Billions, in savings to the communities of PA, just do the math, 61 counties with the average of 40 departments in each, times $500,000 equals 1.2 billion. Do you think the taxpayers are willing to pick up that tab; I don't think so, now you know why there are Volunteers Departments.

So if by chance I stop at your station regardless if its career or Volunteer, just acknowledge something, we are trying to do the same thing, but choose to do it differently by definition only.

Proud to protect my community and America

[ 01-21-2002: Message edited by: wjn48 ]</p>

[GENAFIRE]

NOW THIS IS INTERESTING A MALE CAT FIGHT! LOL..MEOW!......LOL

[prkguns]

Ya Know I've been on (callpaid),and strictly volunteer Departments for the past 27yrs,I've also been on volunteer,and Paid Rescue Squads,In fact I was Chief of the volunteer squad,and have been as high as district manager for the full time companys that I worked for I've worked up and down the east coast from maine to virginia,and you still here the same old stuff that I'm reading on this net.It is a never ending scenario,I have Held the position of Line Capt.as well as admin. officer after going up through the ranks I am currently a line Lt. with the company that I'm with in Virginia,I as a volunteer have had more schooling then the Chief of the County who is also a carreer Lt. with a Large municipality with in the area. Also Look at it this way most active call,or volunteer F.F. will work more actual Structure fire calls then you the full timer do to your Shift restraints,For 4yrs straight myself,and the asst.Chief as call F.F. worked more working structure Fires then the busyest shift in the city,as well as other calls that were toned out ,auto extrications,chimmeny fires,rescues,etc:and when we called the volunteers in for mutual aid they would take there orders from the OIC of that scene,and when we called the carreer Guys in for mutual aid they took there orders from the the OIC of that scene unless in both cituations.So Why don't we all just put this decussion to bed,and move on to more important things like serving the public with the Courage,and Pride that we all got into this line of work for,wether VOlunteer,or Paid Call,or Carreer,we all are brothers,working toward the same goal to SERVE,AND Protect,our Resients.That's what We're all about is'nt it? THats the end result!

[Smoke286]

pkrguns, see above agruments as to why its not the same

[prkguns]

smoke 286 Understand this I can succum,to smoke,and heat,and get burned too,so why is it not the same? Because you get a check either weekly,or bi-weekly,and I don't,is that supposed to make you more Qualified then I,or any other volunteer,dose the fire burn hotter because you get paid,and we don't,or is it the fact that it's all in your head that you think your better then us,step up to my scene any time,and we'll see if the fire starts getting more intense.I will make this statement though,and I don't think there is a vollie,or career Fire Fighter that won't agree even though I'm a Vollie,if someone gets there butt in jam even though they happen to be career (I'll still use my experiance of 27yrs,and lack of knowlege) to bail them out,and I'll bet you this at that point it won't make a whole lot of differance to them, because they will have lived to tell about it. So why don't you get a grip sir,and realize that we're all out there for the same reasons,and yes there are some who are more,and better trained wether Vollie or Career,but that is just a fact of life,and there is not a lot that can be done about it,just to ease your mind sir I think that if you ask most Vollies if they want your job they'll tell you Hell no I'make more money then you do in a year,in most cases the man/women who volunteers do'es it because they like to help people,and serve there community any way they can,and this is there way of doing it.Not for a paycheck be advised that the coments made in this opinion is not to down play the job that the career F.F. do'se,. it is my way of explaining the ignorance of people like smoke 286 displays.I have aiot of very close friends on the career side,on some of the largest,and busiest Departments in the country F.D.N.Y.,B.F.D.etc: So take care my Brothers,and Be Safe.

[FyredUp]

smoke286,

I have told myself I was done with this forum but you have dragged me back once again.

I clearly see your point now, and you are right it has nothing to do with being anti-volunteer at all. It has to do with you being a fire department snob. If a firefighter ain't FDNY, or Boston, or Chicago, or L.A. City or County or any number of other large metro fire departments in your eyes he ain't jack. So essentially any career FD that isn't in that metro category is placed in the same category in your eyes as the vollies you say aren't equal because we may not do it every day.

Your blinders are thick and your mind closed. So I will go back to my medium sized city fire department safe in the knowledge that my job is not the same as a big city firefighter so then I must be safer when I go on actual fire calls. Whew.....what a relief.

By the way, I respect all of my Brothers and Sisters in this biz we call firefighting. The respect I have for the FDNY goes without saying.

I wish you success in your career,

FyredUp

[theffsaint]

this one will never go away and I must start out by saing that I am a vol. but I come from an area where we work on a equal level with the paid FD's to the point that they will mutualaid us for coverage at their stations if they have the big one and have done so in the past. I don't know about the rest of you but I look at the fire survice as a hobby and one day I hope that someone will pay me to do my hobby but if that day never comes it is fine with me. You see where I come from there is a huge respect for the other FD's because the only diferance betwen us is call volume. true they get out the door a little faster and get the chance to train more with eachother than we. Then even have the chance to know what there crew will look like on every call but we both do the same job. I do not say this to brag but I feel that if anything we (the vols) and you all (the Paid guys) should look at eachother as equals. like I said I am sure your ISO ratings are better due to responce time and education but realy why is it such a big deal for use to look to the guy in the white hat (chief) as the athority due to the fact that at least where I come from the paid and vol chiefs are looked on by eachother as equal.

I know that some of you are thinking get out of our forum and well you have that right. I am on my way out the door. Think about it is it so hard to think that a guy in a vol. DP might just have the training knowleg and skills to be the best paid man ever but is just doing it for the love of his comunity, family, and friends. I would sugest that if you (paid guys) are not in Firefighting for the love of the people that you surve then maybe just maybe you should look at a differant line of work because this job is all about providing a service to thoughs in need around us nomatter what the pay or the price. even to the point of paying the final and highst price.

Well I will get our of your hair now. God bless stay safe and remeber we all are brothers and sisters in this job.

[prkguns]

Smoke286 I have the highest level of respect for any F.F. wether they be Vollie,or career,Where did you get out of my last thread that I am a Snob,your the one that started to put down the voliies,not I what I typed yesterday was to explain that we are all equal on the scene.

[FyredUp]

prkguns,

That was my post to smoke286, not to you. Reread the post.

FyredUp

[Smoke286]

Is that what you think Fryedup? If so then I am doing a poor job of putting my point across.I dont believe I am a snob. I dont belong to a large city dept like New York or even Boston. Our Dept has only a little more then 200 in fire supression.I will say again I do not think that career firefighters are superior to vounlteers. I was a volunteer for 12 years, and it was a good experience, met lots of good guys and we did some good work. What I have tried to portray is that firefighting in an urban enviroment is different then volunteer.
The volume of calls and the variety is heavier. Admittedly I have not been everywhere,but one can only speak from personal experience. I dont know why some people persist in trying to make an issue of it, insisting that both are identical. Both vocations serve a useful purpose, and the end result is hopefully the same.

[FyredUp]

smoke286,

Again I had typed in a snappy comeback. But then again perfect clarity came to me and I realized you ain't changing my mind and I damn sure ain't changing yours. So believe what you will and have a great life and career.

FyredUp

[Smoke286]

Now that sounds like closure to me,lol OK Lets leave it at that, as they say everyone is entitled to their opinion, Be careful out there.

[dewtime]

Can I get a group hug now? ;)

As a paid man on a combanation department I have a problem with a vollie officer telling me what to do. I'm a supervisor at the staion at which I work. There are a few captains and a asst. chief that are vollies. My biggest problem is when I ask for something off one of the truck and they almost always reply "ok, where is it?" Now if this is me as a asst. chief I for one am going to know where each and everything is one everyone of the trucks. Same goes for the Captains. No reason in the world for them to come to me and say "wheres this at?" I'm thinking to myself "oh hell no". This is what you get when a fire department promots on who's family. I can't stand it. Vollies are a nice thing but during the day time of normal office hours. You can not count on them.

Another thing i noticed while reading most of the post in this thread was the talk about training. We'll on my shift we train at least 2 hours per shift so we get in 6 hrs per cycle. Not to count the one night a week we (paid perssonal) have to attend the stations training for the vollies. Don't take me wrong on this, but i don't mind doing it. Cause I'm there to provide a service for the people of our district. Just most of the vollies show up when they want and leave when they want. This ****es me off. KNowing they are the ones that need to be here doing the same **** that we've(paid plp) done all week. On top of that we have to listen to their little smart mouths. I just bit my toounge. As does the rest of my shift. I tell them to just blow it off and move on.

I'm may new to posting on this fourm but i'm far from being new to the fire serice. Be safe ladies and gents. Remember water is your friend as am I ;)

[Smoke286]

There is no excuse for anyone, paid of volunteer not knowing their own equipment. It can get you , or someone else, but more importantly you, dead.

[prkguns]

Hey Dewtime I agree with you,as to knowing where your equipment is on the apperatus,and as far as them being a smart ***,there is no need for that either,and if there is going to be any changes on these two subjects you need to get together with your problem children,and square them away,because somebody's going to get hurt because of there stupidity,with them coming ,and going as they please,that should be addressed to the town,or city that ya'll are working for,to see if there can be something instituted in ref. to ya'll not getting the cooperation that is needed for the training that is offered,see if they can some how put the squeeze on the senior officers from the vollie,or call side,see if it would be appropriate for your full time Chief to get involved,thats what we had to do,and it worked,because our call div.attendance improved by 75%.There is no need for the sarcisum,that should be addressed also by the Chief.

[prkguns]

Hey Dewtime I agree with you,as to knowing where your equipment is on the apperatus,and as far as them being a smart ***,there is no need for that either,and if there is going to be any changes on these two subjects you need to get together with your problem children,and square them away,because somebody's going to get hurt because of there stupidity,with them coming ,and going as they please,that should be addressed to the town,or city that ya'll are working for,to see if there can be something instituted in ref. to ya'll not getting the cooperation that is needed for the training that is offered,see if they can some how put the squeeze on the senior officers from the vollie,or call side,see if it would be appropriate for your full time Chief to get involved,thats what we had to do,and it worked,because our call div.attendance improved by 75%.There is no need for the sarcisum,that should be addressed also by the Chief.

[Dalmatian90]

Dew,
Yours is one of the best posts I've read in a while.

I don't read this thread often (it's kinda stupid, fellas) but I'm home sick today and rather bored.

Knowing where equipment is, knowing to show up on time and leave when scheduled, aren't just problems for combo departments. They cause dissension in all-volunteer companies too.

Getting along is largely about respect and fairness.

It's not fair when people don't take the time to learn where equipment is (this is the simplest drill, folks. Hell, doesn't even need to be scheduled, just show up when you have time and start opening doors). It's not respectful to others when you come and go as you please with no real reason at drills other than your own convience.

[prkguns]

dalmatian 90 I'm glad you agree,I always tell my F.F.'s all they have to do is when there driving by stop in take a walk around the apparatus,and open doors,because there are times when either my self or one of the other officers will move some thing to make room for new equip,or for some reason on a temporary basis,but that will be the time that you don't check,and then we get on a scene,somebody calls for a tool or something that was moved,and you don't find out until your asked to go get it,and it's not there now your wasteing precious time looking for it, or somebody to tell you where it was moved to.That could spell disaster.We try not to move anything ever,but you know how that go's. prkguns

[AXE]

I suppose this could be a very touchy situation if the career guys are not accustomed to working with the volunteers. In my town we have a combination department where I started out as a volunteer firefighter. I have been a career firefighter now for almost 5 years. Never has this been a major issue with my department. THANKFULLY! It is on the minutes of the City Board of Alderman meeting a long while back that the volunteer fire chief shall have no authority over the paid guys. And yes, if you are reading between the lines, we have paid firefighter and a volunteer fire chief! That is a different gripe all together.
I believe command can be and should be shared. Everyone should work together. In my department, naturally the paid guys have more training than the volunteers but on the fire ground we all work together. It isn`t a turf war here.

[prkguns]

AXE I'm glad to see that because in all reality it was never a major probblem,when I work'ed on a call,and Paid Dept. either the biggest thing there was the career guys thought that we were trieing to take there job,after the majority of us told,and showed them that it was not so,and they realized that it realy was'nt we all got along well together,however we did have a two headed monster on the carreer side,but once we all caught on we made it real diffacult for him to operate,but every once in-awhile he would poke his head up,and as we swiped at it he would duck it back down again just barely missing having it taken off it's neck.The monster was the training officer for the dept. he just did'nt seam to want peace,and harmony within the dept.The thing was though that on the scene there would be no problems,if you we're to stand back,and watch us work you would not believe that there was a call,and Carreer team in the building or on the fire ground,we all utilized all our knowlage,and resources,and did what we were there for (Fire Supression,and to leave as much of the building serviceable as possible)then go home safe,and get ready to serve the community on the next bell. I Believe we all need to stand back,and look at the reason that we do what we do,and stop the constant bickering over foolish stuff,and realize that we are all (Brothers & Sisters) doing the same job looking for the same outcome Get the Job Done,and we all get back to the Barn Safe.Be Safe My BROTHER<and Have a Great Day,I look forward to seeing ya'll back on the threads PRKGUNS.

[dewtime]

Originally posted by Dalmatian90
Dew,
Yours is one of the best posts I've read in a while.

Axe, I started as a vollie myself. After my tour in the navy as a damage control technicain (firefighter), I took a small vactaion from doing anything. I mean anything!! Then my father said to me, "Boy, you need to find something to do other then sit on your *** all day". Bling! That little light went off in my head. Well damn, I've got 4 years of firefighting experience, why not continue it? Next thing I know I'm volunteering at the fire house just up the street from my parents' house. 22 weeks later I was a certified firefighter. Less than 10 months later I applied for a full time paid position at this same station. The Chief calls me and asks, "So, you still want to work for me?" Your damn skippy I want to, when do i report for work?

Back 5 years ago things could not have been better with everyone getting along. Everyone wanting to do things out in town with one another. Well ALL that has change in the last 18 months or so. Maybe it's because of me. Why? Because the station I work at is a good ol' boy one. Where if you **** the wrong people off you're going to be black balled (some of you know what I'm talking about). Well about 7 months ago I was given some information on the FLSA (Fair Labor Standard Act) Low and behold, I have ****ed the upper brass off by knowing things they don't want us to know. With me reading all I can I've found that the station which I'm employed at is not just breaking one of the FLSA law but like 6. Maybe more. I'm not going to get into the jist of it all. I tried discussing these issues to no avail. Its been 4 months now from when I sent letters to the station's chief, the board of directors and a few others people that needed to know what was going on at this station since I couldn't get any verbal acknowledgement. To date I've gotten nothing in writing from any of the parties. There are a few others on the staff that are with me and some that are totally against me. I'm not trying to hurt the station, I'm tryig to help the station. Just they don't see it like that. Of course, when there is manpower and money involved, I suppose people get antsy. Hell if you are nice, I'll be glad to send you a copy of the letter. =)

[PAVolunteer]

Dew,

I'm sorry to hear that the volunteers in your station have apparently messed things up so much. There is no excuse for not knowing the apparatus, and not abiding by the rules that are out there to protect everyone (both paid and volunteer).

Unfortunately, the situation in your station is all too common in volunteer houses. Thus, your concern is warranted. All I ask is that we all not perpetuate the stereotypes. Take assignments for what they are worth. If the assignment is dangerous, or otherwise stupid, advise the person (paid or volunteer) giving the assignment of such. If command (paid or volunteer) continues to force unsafe acts on your personnel, go home. We've done it. I've witnessed volunteers doing it to paid personnel, and paid personnel doing it to volunteers. Ultimately, we're both on the same team, with the same goal.

Stay Safe

[wrp11402]

As a career firefighter, I am used to working with basicly the same people and officers all the time. I learn to trust the guys I work with as they trust me. We are all assigned jobs to do and no questions are asked, nobody gripes. I have no problem with our superior officers and their decisions. With a volunteer deptartment, how do Chiefs, captains, lieutenants and so on get their position. How long do they stay in that position. Do they vote on that position, do they vote for the BEST guy, the guy who drinks beer with everybody? I'm not sure, but, if I was to be involved with a town full of volunteers and the IC didn't know squat about the task at hand but could polish a piece of apparatus for a parade and drink after that, I'd be hesitant to commit my firefighters to that IC. There may be a good bunch of volly's out there but I think you never know who or what your getting from day to day. In the wake of what's been happening the last few years, I think it's about time to start paying firefighters period. Be it county wide or town and might as well take the ems with it also.

[rfcmitch]

To make ya feel better dew, I would like you to know that before a fireman can run any calls they must have minimum 6 hours of training on each piece apparatus. We are getting strict on our trainings and our meeting attendance. As the field gets more dangerous and competitive we try to stay up with times on the sharp line. And about your can't depend on volunteers for day time. I have heard that this is a major problem in departments, but not with the Randolph Fire Co., during the day we run every ambulance call we get with a driver and 2 emt's. We move every truck to a fire scene, and fill the pumper and rescue with personnel. I agree, that volunteer departments do, as I know of some, lack in training and experience, because they know that their jobs aren't going anywhere. But we like to different, and we are trying. So please, don't make quite broad assumption because some departments do try. We have been around for 117 years, and never had 1 injury on the job. No fireman has ever left one of our scenes in the bus, and we plan on keeping it that way. Our chiefs, captains etc. are voted in. To be eligible for chief you must be in the department for atleast 6 years. You must have served as an assistance chief for 2 years, and to be able to do that you must hold a Captain or Liuetenant position for 1 year. Some departments in this area require only a 2 year membeship period with no prior experience. Our company is a dry department, except for April 27th which is the annual firemens banquet for this year. And for the service and protection of the area, we have a nearby department on automatic response for us. However, there are firemen that don't drink and our apparatus still leave the barn. And to end on that note, have a great day, and be safe out there.

[Smoke286]

well said wrp, sums up the problem in a nutshell. if you were to ask a paid firefighter, who he'd like to have running second in, 99 times out of a hundred he would pick a paid station, simply because he knows what hes going to get. there might be some excellent volunteers show up, but you cant count on it

[GFD2615]

NO WAY! firefighting is a hobby for volunteers and a profession for career.Sorry thats the way I feel.

Also, any vollies in bashing the union - get lost!!!

IAFF PROUD MEMBER!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[CW7704]

GFD, I am sorry that you feel the way that you do. I am a volunteer in a combination department that has been turned upside down by the Union. And as long as you continue to call Volunteer Fire/EMS a hobby, I will continue to say that you guys are Just in it for the Money. Take a rural area for example, how can one be hobbying if he is the only game in town? 75% of all Firefighters are volunteers, and most of these are Rural areas who have no funding or necessity for career firefighters. How can anyone justify paying someone to sit around a firehouse that runs under 1000 calls a year for 24 hours?
It is a drain on the people who pay your salaries, the taxpayers. I live in a rural county with a low tax rate, low call volume and a 100% volunteer system that gets out the door fully staffed 100% of the time. If anyone tried to implement a career system down here, they would be run out of town. But to get back to your post, If there is no career staffing in a particular area and the volunteers are the sole provider of Fire Protection, than they are not Hobbying. Regardless of their pay status, these people are performing a job. If there is a fire, someone has to ride the firetruck. I agree that in busier combination departments, volunteers come and go and go to the station when they have free time, just like it was a hobby. But not all Volunteer Firefighters can be called hobbyists if they are providing the only means of Fire Protection to their community. And as far as Union Bashing goes, I will bash the union all I want to. And that is not just the IAFF, that is all Unions, I was a sheetmetal worker for 2 years and never saw one benefit of the dues I was paying every week. Its a social club to me. So get your head out of your Rear, stop bashing volunteers and maybe we will respect you alot more. We are all doing the same thing, Fighting Fires, providing EMS and community service. Just because you get paid and I do not does not mean I am not a "professional." Professional is a Verb, not a noun. Its all in how you conduct yourself. And by your statement, I can tell you are far from a professional.


Keepin' it safe yo!- I think not

[rfcmitch]

Thank you. I didn't have a problem with paid firemen until I started getting in these forums, and started reading what IAFF members had to say. In 25 years we have ran over 5,000 ambulance calls fully staffed, on a volunteer basis 24/7/365, and we have never had 1 fireman hurt on one our scenes in 117 years. We are dang proud of that and nobody can take it away from us.

[GFD2615]

CW,
First of all you say your a volly on a combo dept. and then you say your community is 100% vollunteer? Second, professionally is an adjective and professional is a noun.
Anyway, just so you know I was a volly for 3 years making vol. Lt. before becoming career. And in that time as a vol. Lt. I never ever felt like I should be commanding those who do the job every third day, plain and simple. To tell you the truth I am not against volunteers. However, when they come into the paid/career forum and start bounding their chest and downgrading the union that ****es me off.. (read the beginning comments on this forum) I also would like to state that even though I still think it is a hobby for vollies, I do believe there are some who are professional, even more so than some career members.
Its too bad your sheet metal union did not work for you. The IAFF is a good organization. It turned our dept. upside down and shook out all the crap! If you feel the need to further bash the union please do it to someone else, because I believe in it very strongly.

[Jam1902]

GFD2615 – Nice to meet you! It saddens me to see that when you were a volunteer Lt. you did not have confidence enough to think you could command people just because they got paid to do the same job you were doing. I am sure in order to become a Lt. be it career or volunteer you had to do some pretty intensive training. A paycheck does not make a firefighter or an officer, skills, knowledge, ability and experience does. If you did not have the confidence in your abilities maybe you should not have been a Lt. If a volunteer officer in my department felt they could not command someone just because they got paid for doing the same job I was I wouldn’t have much confidence in them, and how would that affect operations if your members didn’t have confidence in you?

In reference to the union bashing, I don’t bash any union. Unions are an integral part of the working environment in keeping the work force from being exploited by management. But, when the union starts pounding their chest and starts saying I am not a professional just because I am a volunteer or I am not dedicated just because I am a volunteer and says I only do this for a hobby “just because I’m a volunteer, That ****es me off!

Not bashing anyone just trying to make my point.

Peace, keep the faith and stay safe!

[dewtime]

Union whats that? There is no chapter in my area for me to join. If i were to even bring it to my station they would go ape ****. So I for one can not sit here and say i do or do not like unions. For teh simple fact that people in the south don't like them. Why? got me..

[CW7704]

GFD, I do not live and volunteer in the same Jurisdiction, I used to live in the same one but the Crime tookover and me and my family joined a "Great White Flight!"

[wrp11402]

It looks as though you volly's are the problem here. Good example is right in front of us... this is a career posting board and you slap happy blue light bar Pennsyltucky yahoos come on this board telling us we're no good and so on. I know deep inside all you yahoos want to be career firefighters. I think the reason why you're not is: A You either don't have the "marbles" to do so as a career because you are expected to work or: B you waited too long, have a family now and can't afford the pay cut to start the job. I never had a problem with volly's before but, I'm tired of hearing all you yahoos yelling about how "bad" the paid firefighters are. All the guys I know who volunteer wish they went the paid route, so do a lot of cops. Go back to the volly board and tell each other how bright your blue lights are and leave us alone. We talk about issues here that concern paid firefighters such as labor relations and pensions, something that dosen't concern the vollys. God bless the unions!

[CW7704]

WRP11402,

You seem to have some hostilites built up. Contrary to popular belief, not every volunteer wants to be a career firefighter. I lost interest in the career Fire Service after volunteering in a combination department. The career staff and their attitudes toward the Vollies in our system is terrible. And your line about people starting families and not being able to take a pay cut is true. I chose to pursue a career where I could make good money Immediately instead of applying for a job as a firefighter. I mean I would've just LOVED to sit in a high School gym with 1500 other people taking a test to compete for one of those coveted 40 positions on some fire department. You know, so I could sit around all day at work with guys like you and talk about how great the union is, where were gonna go after shift to drink beer, how the TICKS and SCABS screw us over, how bad the Chief is because he won't bow down to the Union and how we have to keep running calls that interrupt our Lounging after hours. Yeah, instead I went and applied for a federal job, had an interview, started working and am making excellent money with great benefits! All WITHOUT a Union! So before you pass judgement on volunteers as a whole, maybe you should shut your AFL-CIO yap and actually talk to some of us. Cause it is not every Volunteer Firefighters dream to become a career Firefighter.

PGFD-Keepin' it Safe Yo!- I think not

[wrp11402]

CW7704
You seem to have the hostilities built up, not I. Maybe you see guys sitting around in Maryland, although I doubt it, it's not like that here in the Northeast or Mid-Atlantic states. You say you took a federal job? What's that supposed to mean, you take EVERYBODYS tax money instead of the towns? I'm sure you earn your money just like we earn ours. If you read my last post, I do talk to the vollys, they all wished they had gone the paid route, or did you skip that part. I said before I never had a problem with vollys before this board, It looks like just a bunch of jealous wannabe's blowing smoke up our a**es. The vollys around here don't bust our chops and the paid firefighters around don't bust theirs. You had the problem of a combination department, thats like mixing bleach and ammonia, you know what happens when you do that? Well, need I say anymore? As far as the test? Only the strong survive I guess. Have a nice day.

[kfd26710]

CW7704, I am so glad you did all of those great things,..."applied for a federal job, had an interview, started working and am making excellent money with great benefits! All WITHOUT a Union!" That is great.

I think I will give you an ATTA BOY!!!! Pretty impressive.:rolleyes:
I don't know how you "FEDERAL", (OOOOOH,) guys do it, but we don't sit around and talk about how great the union is, and where we are going to go after shift to drink beer, how the TICKS and SCABS screw us over, how bad the Chief is because he won't bow down to the Union and how we have to keep running calls that interrupt our Lounging after hours. That is not how it is, apparently you will never know what it is like. I like my job, the pay is okay, we have good benefits, I work an average of 10 days a month. Mr. Volunteer sergeant, police dispatcher, FEDERAL man I don't know why you want to down the paid guys for, the union, and yourself. Good Luck with your FEDERAL job, and remember....ALWAYS SUPPORT YOUR LOCAL UNION.......:) :) :p

Have a good day and GOD BLESS.

[Smoke286]

Are you guys still arguing about this? When will you learn a bunch of volunteers come trolling into this forum just to keep this debate going.They will never learn, you can not enlighten them, so its just as well to igore them.

[prkguns]

kfd26710&wrd11402 As far as your replies to my last two threads I think the both of you need to go back, and re-read them because in neither did I criticize I just answered questions that were asked.I explained my past experiances,not to criticize,Because it seems that yall read these post's to look for something to start an arguement about not to use it for it's real intent for reasonable conversation,as well as for people to learn from others,get a grip gentalmen,and come back to reality (we're all out there to do the same job)and another problem is your both talking about two differant things,and putting them together,seperate them,and maybe you will understand what the post,s were realy about,and that is the last that I want to have to say about the subject have a good day gentalmen,and be safe.

[prkguns]

Hey Smoke286 To answer no I'm not still arguing,they just want to keep it going,you know the phrase evrybody has there own oppinions,and they are like a_ _ h_ _ _ _ s everybodys got one,and they all stink.be safe my friend see ya.

[1835Wayne]

I don't know why there is even a question about this topic.
Irregardless of who gave the order, if it is an unacceptably dangerous one, you refuse it and explain why.If not as we say in my local,"DO NOW, GRIEVE LATER!!!":D

[prkguns]

Hello 1835wayne All I've got to say is Thank You, thats what I've been trying to say for the past 7 months. Have a good day,and Be Safe my friend.

[1835Wayne]

:)You're welcome prkguns. I've been following this thread hoping someone would stop sniping at each other long enough to see the big picture. A couple of folks tried, but they were drowned out by the vols who are to self absorbed to see the good that the IAFF has done for the fire service as a whole, and the paid union guys who can't seem to believe that any vollie could possibly be competant.

Also, for the union guys, why not just address the problems you have had in the appropriate manner? (I.E.- GRIEVANCE,ARBITRATION, NLRB CHARGES!!):rolleyes:

[Jam1902]

Wrf11402 – Hey dude, the name of the thread is,“Volunteer Officers Commanding Career Personnel.” I wont waste my time with the rest of the remarks.;)




Volunteers do it for the dedication to the job not a pay check!

[wrp11402]

Hey Jam, I don't care what the thread say's, the board is CAREER AND PAID! You need to get your Pennsyltucky yahoo head educated and learn how to read first. Volunteers don't COMMAND career, they have all they can do to COMMAND respect when they are like you yahoos!!!

[Neman13]

The only thing a Vollie officer should be in charge of is maybe a pancake breakfast or a bean supper. I thank god I am surrounded by paid fire dep't so I don't have to deal with Yahoo Officers. I know that when another Cities Officer shows up scene he holds that position because of experience,education and respect He or She deserves.. Not because of a 2/3 Majority vote.. Yes there are good and bad officers Paid and "Sparky" ,the Bad Sparky's are far worse then Real Officers. My recomendation's if at all possible, leave the vollies to burn there own buildings down. If you swap RIT's Then as soon as They have Vollie power at there incident, ask to be relived.Then Go back to your paid district where your taxpayers who wan't a real dept expect you to be anyhow. Hope this helped

[wrp11402]

Thanks Neman, good to hear from all the CAREER brothers! God bless the union!

[1835Wayne]

THE IDIOCY ON THIS THREAD IS OVERWELMING, ON BOTH SIDES OF THE QUESTION. WHICH NO ONE SEEMS TO BE TALKING ABOUT ANYWAY.:mad: :mad:

[Smoke286]

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Volunteers do it for the dedication to the job not a pay check!

wayne, that is my ownly problem

[Jam1902]

Silly me, I thought L-1619 had cornered the market on ”AROGANCE,” ”IGNORANCE” and ”SELF RIGHTSIOUSNESS”
This is what happens when one is so narrow minded, it makes it hard to carry on an intelligent conversation about a subject. Instead they resort to attacks and slander.

The topic is, “Volunteer Officers Commanding Career Personnel” and the only reason I can gather from here is you don’t like it just because they are volunteers. I haven’t heard one good reason why you don’t like it, only just because they are volunteers. This is what shows your ignorance.

I am sure no one will mind if you pack up your toy’s and head back to your all career hole if you don’t think you can hang with the volunteers. The fire will go out without you. It may even go out faster.

If you are that worried about volunteer officers, maybe you should have yourselves taken off of any mutual aid assignments you have where you run with volunteers and stay in your all career hole so you won’t have to deal with it. It will probably make the fire ground run a lot smoother.

Or better yet, why don’t you people grow up. From your own mouths you agree that you have officers on the career side that are just as bad. I am one volunteer who agrees that the popularity contest for choosing officers sucks…..It’s wrong…..and it needs to be changed. But until it can be changed this is what we have to work with and we need to do our best at getting the most qualified people into these positions.

If IAFF members would put a little of the effort they use attacking volunteers into trying to work with them maybe some good changes can take place. But as long as you continue to attack the volunteers things will never change. Stop thinking just because you get paid to do the same job volunteers do for free that it makes you more professional. ’WRONG”

Just my humble opinion, Peace!:p


”VOLUNTEERS DO IT FOR THE DEDICATION TO THE JOB, NOT A PAYCHECK”

[OLD CHIEF]

I almost hate to get involved in this thread, but here goes.
The issue of who is in command at a scene is a LOCAL issue.
All the bashing that is going on here will NOT change the situation
in your jurisdiction. If career firefighters feel this strongly about
this go to your municipality and request to be taken out of the mutual aid pact. When this happens the problem is solved!!!
I only see two considerations that you need to examine.
1-What will the public perception be of this move?
2-If you do not want to assist them, they will not assist
you--it works both ways.
If niether of these issues bother you then request to be taken out
of your mutual aid pact with volunteer departments and the problem is gone. If you are not prepared to do this then quit bashing just for the fun of it. These forums are PUBLIC and I do not believe we are putting our best foot forward in this thread.
Just my thoughts!!