daytime membership

[Darrin Rooney]

Being on a volunteer department has proven to be a real hardship durng the day.We have a roster of 30 members,and are lucky to get 10 for daytime fires!Thank god for mutual aid!

[LMRCap1]

Don't feel alone we have active membership of 16 presently. During the day depending on the day we may only have 2 or 3 people. Thank god for mutual aid and those dedicated enough who work a swing shift at their paid jobs.

Les Hartford

[STATIONTWO]

This is something i have been looking at.I wonder if targeting a certain group of people the answer.You know the people coming off the highway at 8:00 am instead of getting on it.If we are able to get better day time coverage would we be able to train them.point being if they are working evenings and night.Could we train them day times.would we accept that they would not be able to make meetings, drills, and calls at night.We can not accept a new member over the age of 55.To me that makes no sense,that would be prime age.Person with plenty of free time.

Just my thoughts
have a great day

[chf jstano]

This is one of the reasons we have mutual aid agreements;to suppliment manpower and equipment.I happen to be a "night person" and I would never hesitate to roll out of the sack to go help neighboring depts.And I would never hesitate to call them to assist our dept.That is truely one of the great things about the fire service,we are always there for each other.If you are aware of some people in your community who work nights or evenings, approach them and ask if they might be willing to join your orginization.I do admit ,sometimes you have to be a little creative on training times and opportunities and attending meetings may be tough,but we in this line of service are known for flexability and creativity.STAY SAFE!

[Eng 48]

My workplace allows us to respond to calls during the day. They understand we provide them with fire protection and so it's no problem. My home town department isn't as lucky. We have the same problem during the day, getting three or four guys. I can leave work to go there as well (if the tones reach my pager) but even then I am at least 15 minutes out. We can only do so much with what we have. Some dept. hire a few daytime firefighters just to get by. We may see more of that in the future.


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Be safe everyone!

[EXJAKE]

Mutual Aid is supposed to be for the BIG one!

You are supposed to call Mutual Aid only after using up all of yur own department's capabilities ie: personnel and equipment.

Using Mutual Aid for, so called, routine incidents is an abuse of the system and an extra burden on your neighboring Departments.

You should find another solution because eventually they will notice the one way traffic of fire apparatus and personnel!

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Good Luck and be careful out there,EXJAKE:-)

[Dalmation90]

Different areas use mutual aid differently Ex-Jake! Since the 60s (50s? 40s maybe?) and still today all structure fires in my Town automatically role three departments -- but realize most towns in this area are one department, one station -- so some towns have six fire departments...

Second, for that restriction on Age 55...betta have your lawyer check that. Probably is illegal now -- age discrimination applies wether or not your paid -- you're still an "employee"

Lastly...I've always thought it would be a perfect application for (like, oh my god, he's about to use that dirty word, REGIONALIZATION...) regionalization -- maybe each station can find 3 or 4 people available during the day -- but put together 4 or 5 stations and you have 15 people. Then have a training class for all of them together -- heck, even put together a FFI class during the days for all of them. Then maybe each of the four stations rotate who hosts the training each month.

It's definitely a problem in recruiting people who work second shift and can't attend day drills! But it seems to me by pooling resources, several departments together could make it work.

I do know of one town in my region that does have weekday drills once a month or so -- but they also run 5 stations and protect nearly 30,000 people with an all volunteer force.

[jboczek]

Exjake, don't know where you come from but any of our mutual aid departments are in the same shape - not enough during the day. We help each other no matter how many times we call. Maybe YOU think mutual aid is for the big one, but most of us are more than willing to help out another short handed dept.
As for what's the answer for daytime, we're starting to have training sessions during the morning hours so some of our night workers can come. It seems to be working out but we still need more people who work nights.

[This message has been edited by jboczek (edited March 06, 2000).]

[Kelly Tool]

Hey Darrin- our department is in the same boat. We have mutial aid with 3 surrounding departments, which is a big help, and we also allow people who regularly work in our district (40hrs or more) to join our department with out having to live within it, this allows us to tap into people who are working during the daytime who could potentially respond. Currently though we only have about 2 people that do this (hey every little bit helps).

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Put the wet stuff on the red stuff!

[billdvfd]

we have the same problem in our dept.Day time fires are hard to make for some people,they just have to make a living.But what are you gonna do.They try to make what they can,however its sad when you get a call in the middle of the night and the guys that work in the day dont make the calls at night.

bill p.
Delta Vol.Fire Dept.
Delta Colorado. www.fire-ems.net/firedept/view/DeltaCO/ (http://www.fire-ems.net/firedept/view/DeltaCO/)

[ChapCapt]

EXJAKE, you criticized yourself in your own post. You said mutual aid if for the big one when you deplete your own depts resources. Well, if 3 or 4 guys is all your resources and you need more for even little stuff, that fits your definition of calling for help when you run out of your own manpower.

Just like the others we have manpower problems during the day as well. Our neighboring depts. have never complained about getting called for "little" jobs and we have never complained about getting called by them. That is the whole point of mutual aid. If we are not willing to help each other no matter how glorious or mundane the job is we might as well pack it in now.

I hope that is not the attitude your department really takes. If it is, obviously you don't provide much mutual aid to your neighbors and you are probably the last on the list to be called. If you don't call mutual aid accept when your FFs are in deep and everything is all tied up, who is watching your backs? Sounds like a dangerous situation to me. Calling for help when the s--t hits the fan is too late.

-Cheers

[Chief Taylor]

"Personnel Augmentation" is the 1st reason I drafted and signed an automatic mutual aid aggreement with the next town. During the daytime hours if I get 6 people at a fire, I am doing great. The town that we signed with only has sometimes 1 person in town during the daytime.
It workes out good for both of our communities as we are giving back to each other the same thing. FIREFIGHTERS!
PS, if I got 10 people to a fire, I think I would have the big one right there.

[JR95]

Well getting back to day time response....

My department has a special membership for day time responders. This roll includes people who work in town during the day, but may reside in a seperate town. Aside from this membership, we are lucky enough to have several members who work in town during the day.

Mutual Aid is only called if there is a fire alarm at one of the schools in any of the towns within in the mutual aid agreement.

[Tom Lafleur]

Been there done that.We have 4 carrier and 35 POC. I worked a day shift for a carrer guy, and got an auto alarm for the local elderly housing. Arriving with the first peice I had 1 cop and 2 emt's. Lucky it was burnt toast.Talk about s%&ting your pants.
Stay Safe

[Buddah1109]

i feel very lucky ion this situation because my sta we can gurantee our firehouse to empty out yes we are voulnteer we just have that many guys and plus it helps that the township we live in passed an ordinance that any certified firefighter from one of the township fire depts my go to another co if they are in the vicinty and they are coverd under the insurance

[Fireman Ry]

Be lucky that your department gets that many members to show up during the day. A few weeks ago, a department in my county had a brush fire go to 3 alarms because of the lack of manpower. My station will have about 3 guys show up during the day and on several occassions, they call for our engine, rescue and ladder out of my station. Count your blessings.

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Ryan B.
Stay Safe
Warminster Fire Department
Station 90
Bucks County

[Fireman488]

8 AM to 4 PM is probably our department's busiest time of day for both Fire and EMS.

Being fully volunteer, we rely heavily on our Village Highway Dept. to fill the void of members at work. Highway Department employees, who are firefighters, are permitted/encouraged to respond to alarms during their working hours.

We also have some members, who work nights, and some, who work shifts: police officers and career firefighters.

In addition to some members, who are retired, but still able to perform some firefighting duties, particularly driving.

Adding all of these manpower resources together, we are able to adequately cover the daytime hours.

[FF.FOREVER]

I work for 2 fully vol. depts. I believe that the problem is the employers don't understand the service we provide to our towns and cities. I'm lucky that I have an employer that says if I have a structure fire I'm allowed to respond. I used to work for a hospital and trying to respond from that place was like pulling teeth. I know everyone has jobs and bills to pay as I do also. But how many strucutre fires do you get a year? In my town including mutial aid I'm lucky if we get 10 and most of them are at night. Mutial aid is a great thing I just wish the employer would be more understanding!

[WOODMAN]

I WOULD SAY MOST VOLUNTEER DEPARTMENTS ARE IN THE SAME BOAT THAT BEWTEEN 8-4 WE ARE LUCKY TO GET 3 MEN TO A TRUCK WHICH IN MY DEPARTMENT MEANS 6 GUYS AT A WORKER.THANK GOD
THAT THE CITY NEXT TO US (A PAID DEPARTMENT)SENDS US A ENGINE AND A TRUCK FOR EACH REPORTED WORKER.
TO EXJAKE I TAKE IT TO HEART WHAT YOU SAID ABOUT MUTUAL AID FOR THE BIG ONE PUT DURING THE DAY IT IS ALWAYS AUTOMATIC FOR US AND MOST VOLUNTEER DEPARTMENTS AROUND ME AND WE HAVE BOTH PAID AND VOLLIES SOME TIME AND IT WORKS OUT JUST FINE AND THERE IS NO ONE WAY STREET OF MATERIAL COMING INTO A TOWN AND IT IS NOT ABUSED BY ANY ONE TOWN OR CITY!!!!

[fireater]

With that problem, we have a few high school students that are firefighters and properly trained and a few of them are even EMT's so we use them alot. In the day time we also have a 63 year old who has been with the dept for over 40 years as an engineer and then there is a ff that works for the city and another is an insurance agent that the company let him move his office into his basement so that he can respound on calls with us.

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Stay Safe and remember to put the wet stuff on the red stuff

[pfpchief]

i am chief of one company in a 3 company town if we get 10 guys at a call between the 3 its a mircle.we can cover the smells and bells this way but not any kind of working job.we have a mutual aid agreement with all our neighbors. if we call they come and we go if they call .we just do the best we can. thank God for 2nd shift guys or we would be hard pressed to get that many

[bob1350]

This is a problem that we as volunteers and those of us that are leaders on the dept. need to address now. Our dept has about 60 members and we may get 2-3 for a daytime response. Ours is a combo dept. and the career chief rightly criticizes us for not geeting a good daytime repsonse. We've changed our by-laws to allow those who do not live in the district but work here to join so they can respond. We are also going to visit local businesses and try to recruit for daytime response. If I have a day off from work, I try run every call I can, just to make the numbers look good.

[bowstringtruss]

BUT ISN'T IT FUNNY HOW THEY ALL SEEM TO SHOW UP FOR THE BIG ONE! (HA HA)
--------------------------------------------
IT SEEMS LIKE A LOT OF US FACE THE SAME PROBLEM HERE. THE QUESTION IS WHAT DO WE DO ABOUT IT?
SEEK GOVT $$ FOR PAID DAYLIGHT CREWS? CAN WE GET THE POLITICIANS TO OPEN THEIR WALLETS?
HOW ABOUT RECRUIT MORE PEOPLE? WHAT PEOLPE? OUR TOWN IS MOSTLY SENIORS, KIDS, - AND THOSE SAME KIDS PARENTS - WHO NOT ONLY DON'T HAVE TIME FOR FIREFIGHTING, THEY DON'T EVEN HAVE TIME FOR THEIR KIDS!
IT GETS PRETTY SAD WHEN YOU HAVE TO ROLL 3 FIRE COMPAMIES JUST TO GET ENOUGH MANPOWER TO SAW UP A DOWNED TREE!!
HOPEFULLY WE CAN COME UP WITH A SOLUTION SOON!

[sarg226]

During the day we are covered pretty well compared to other areas. i belong to a vollie dept. The trucks roll driver only a lot during the day but we have a lot of guys who can leave work and our retired guys help out tremendously. During the day the basic idea is get the truck there and the personnel will meet you.

[FFShooty]

For years, our Department has not had any problems rolling with a full crew, (driver, Officer, and at least 4 FF's) within 3-4 minutes during the day. We're luck to have understanding employers here who allow us to leave, mine included. One day it is going to happen though. We're all getting older and we don't seem to be getting any quality or total committment out of the newer generations. We've been fortunate for years, but how much longer can we get by? As far as mutual aid goes, if jurisdictions have the agreements in place and the companies are willing, I think it's great that Departments are working together. To infer that mutual aid is only for the "Big One" is ludicrous. We're all in this for the same reason. Anyone Agree?

Stay Low....

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Go Right for Sirens and Lights!

[VVFC2LT]

With only 9 active ff, we rely on our retired members and mutual aid. Most of the retired crew are guys that can drive, pump and wear SCBA. Also, some of our active members work night term and can respond during the day. Working for the County Emergency Management/Fire Marshal's Office, I can respond if it is a confirmed structure fire. Enough can't be said for mutual aid. For the hours of 0600 to 1800, an automatic second and third department is used. At night, depending on the call, a second department is also dispatched.

[ResQRev]

In our department (both Fire and EMS) we were forced last year into hiring a paid medic from 7 am to 4 pm. Coupled with the house man, they form a skeleton EMS crew if we are unable to get the volunteers out. The house man also has become the driver of the first due engine.

Our commissioners were very concerned that the hiring of the paid medic would cause an uprising among the volunteers, but since the system was implemented it has been very well accepted by the volunteers. Thank goodness!

Being that our department is 110 years old and has been all volunteer throughout this time, it has taken some adjustment in attitude.

Daytime fire response is around 10 on a good day, about 60 at night. During the day we automatically have mutual aid respond in on any confirmed working structure fire, which has proven to be a necessity and a blessing.

Seems to me that the volunteer system is being challenged in ways that we never have been before: An exponential increase in alarms (largely due to the mandated automatic alarms in our town for all commercial structures--A challenge, because sometimes we get up to 10 calls a day and volunteers just can't give that much time), and, of course, the updated and continuous trainining demands. Bottom line is that in our area we just are not able to get people who have 40 hours a week to donate to their community for service and training as a firefighter, work their two paying jobs, and be with their families at the same time.

I really wish I knew an answer to this problem without having to resort to a paid department, but to me a professional department is the logical outcome of today's situation in our area. It's a sad day... (We're running out of ways to creatively "keep going" as a volunteer dept.)

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Rev. John G. Fleischmann
Director
Suffolk Co. NY CISM Team

[atc10]

In regards of recruiting for daytime response. Targeting areas of the community to bolster daytime response sounds like a good idea. There is another area that needs to be addressed as well. Daytime responses (in my district at least) are much more numerous than nighttime. This results (from personal experience) in alot of calls where to be quite honest there is not a need for much manpower. Needless to say the end result is not a lot of sleep, and a tremendous amount of burnout. It seems to me that a recruitment like this needs to be coupled with a system that matches manpower called/toned with manpower needed on scene.

[st34ff]

Mutial add is not for just the big one. The other day (about 1:30pm), we had a wreck where the car rolled over. On our rescue truck, out of the 5(!) people we got, only 2 were VRT Techs. We hit out another Rescue and another engine to cover the bird if it flew (which it didn't). If we didn't call the extra trucks, well, it wouldn't be pretty.

Kyle

[Brian Dunlap]

My department being an all Volunteer Department has always been able to at least respond 2 out of our 4 pieces of equipment during the day {Engine and Ladder} because of our compliment of second and third shift workers..{I'm one of the third shift workers} We rely heavily on mutial aid between 0600hrs. and 1800hrs. during the week because of the amount of our guys who are at work {over 30 of them} We due draw between 6-10 daytime members depending on the call and the time of day....Early Mornings before 9am and late afternoons around 3-4 o'clock are our bad times

[mark440]

We have approx. 30 members. Most days we are lucky to fill a 3 person squad. On a structure call we can usually get a 3 person engine, 1 person engine, 1 person medical unit, and a chief officer on a daytime call. Depending on situation on arrival of first in rig, mutual aid is requested. We have very little 2-3 shift workers. I work as dispatcher, with no set schedule, and voluteer for grave shifts to be in city during the peak hours. On a slow day I only have to get out of bed 3 times. But I gladly trade my sleep to help those in need. http://www.firehouse.com/interactive/boards/smile.gif

Mark

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If in doubt - Call us out

[D.SCHWER]

Daytime alarms

For those that carry mandatory minimum fire call attendance, do day time calls count against maintaining a minimum percentage?

Do you expell members that do not maintain percentages

Volunteer...some has to do it!

[FireChief600]

The answer to this question is very simple...for some of you OLDER guys, this may be a hard pill to swallow....RECRUIT WOMEN! They are usually at home during the day time!
Also,recruit members that work in your community, and try to get your local industries to let members out of work if an alarm come in during the day (on the clock if possible http://www.firehouse.com/interactive/boards/redface.gif). This may be tough, but try to convince them that it would be a service to the community.

Chief Matt Harmon,EMT-IV
Paulette VFD
ICQ#17898671

[Looper]

In our area, many of the departments have gone to some form of a "paid" day crew. As far as I know, there are no full time positions, each dept just uses a large group of part timers. None of them pay enough to live on -- most guys treat it as a "side job". (Yes, I kmow this technically makes us "combination" departments).

The basic idea is to garuantee the first truck out the door in 60 seconds. In my Dept, the day crew also performs routine maintenance, handles most PR events, does the preplans & inspections, and handles a lot of the little "errands" that need to be done to keep 3 stations and 8 trucks up and running.

The daytime crew, and the people just hanging out at the stations, will usually handle all the "BS" calls (single truck). This has kept out response times low and will help out then next time ISO comes around.

If we get a stucture fire, we can usually still pull at least 5 or 6 trucks and have 15-20 people on the first alarm.

We also use "Community Service" people (yes, the ones who were sentenced to it!) for general mainenance like cutting the grass, washing the trucks, cleaning the station (one of them is 19,500 sq.ft.) and things like that.

Our department is lucky, in that we have a bunch of people who work as career fire/ems and are on 24/48 shifts, as well as several guys who work night shift (4 police officers & an aircraft mechanic).