Strength of Women

[ptfd]

I am a female rookie ff for a large sized fire department. Yesterday I was called into a meeting with my Lt. where he stated that I was doing a great job. Always willing to help, wanting to learn, etc. He said better than any rookie he has seen. Then he proceeded to tell me that I need to increase my strength (I probably do, everyone probably does, this is a physical job, I am not arguing with that). He knows that I work out at a gym on my off days from a discussion we had at my monthly review. He then also stated that he could not be sure I was really working out unless I did it with his supervision, except to take my word for it. I asked him if there has been a situation where he noticed I could not do the job, or if others had made a comment to him about this. He replied that he had not seen or heard any specific incidents. I am feeling a bit distressed by this conversation. I do not have a problem with increasing my strength, I lift weights 3-4 days a week, but him stating to me that I should do it at the firehouse gym bothers me. Also, him saying that he is going to put on my monthly review my need to increase strength when it has not been an issue seems a bit premature of a conclusion to jump to. What are yalls feelings on this? Do you think that I have some justification to be upset by these comments? Any advice is greatly appreciated. Tell me I m nuts for being mad, or side with me, I dont care I just need an outside independent opinion. If it makes any difference, we have had 3 structure fires where I have pulled my weight. Thanks.

[LadyCapn]

You need to work out under his direct supervision? Hon, sounds to me like the beginnings of a sexual harrassment case.
As a probie you are in a bad position. If you complain to anyone you have marked yourself. If you don't say anything then you are perceived as welcoming this.
Document everything. Never be alone with him in the gym, make sure there is someone else around whenever possible. Bring up your strength issue in conversation with others in your house in your Lt's presence. eg. asking some of the firefighters different ways to increase strength stamina etc. Work into the conversation whether any of the guys have had a problem with whether or not you carry your weight. Again, do this in front of your Lt.
It's hard to say based on the limited info you've given whether this guy is a creep, is really truly interested in helping you, or is working on a way to get rid of you before probation is up.
Be careful sister

[truck6alpha]

Easy answer. Is his treatment of you consistent with the manner in which he treats the other employees. If there is question as to whether or not any of them are sub-standard in their fitness, does he make them work out in front of him. If yes, then he's being fair. If, not, I suggest having a discussion regarding quantitative and measurable fitness goals and if he won't work with you on being able to achieve them, well...

We are required to do PT every shift. Some do it more strenuously than others. Some work out on their days off. But the big question is, can they pass the quantitative gudelines set by the department and if so, then as long as they're not getting in the way of others working out (or they're just standing around) then they're okay. Good luck.

[Temptaker]

Just a further note to the comment from ladycapn. When you do work out at the station, wear something baggy. That way you don't give him anything to look at, and no one can insinuate that you are trying to use your sexuality to manipulate.

A thought did come to me that it may just be that he is attempting to treat you as 'one of the guys'. He may not even realize the connotation associated with what he said to you. It could just be that he is trying to create a stronger 'team' environment. He may feel that if you work out with others at the station it would help you to find exercises that would better target the areas (probably upper body) that you need more strength in. I do exercises that I have never seen anyone but FF do, simply because they were shown to me, and they work better then anything else. The other thing is may have experience with woman who worked out all the time before they got hired so they could pass the physical, but once they got on they stopped. Since men and women don't generally hold muscle mass the same way, the impact on a woman stopping happens alot faster then it does on a man. I know there are lots of men out there that are completely out of shape, but naturally they are physically stronger. If no one has had any problems with your work, he might just be trying to ensure that you do everything you can to further and maintain your career. Anyone can say they work out, that doesn't mean they actually do. I might say the same thing to a woman, but it wouldn't be taken the same way because I am not a man.

Personally I prefer to workout with men, because I feel they push me harder than the woman I have worked out with. You might find that you like it.

I agree that you should document and keep track of things, in the event that he actually does do something overt. My suggestion would be until that time comes, try to keep an open mind and don't assume that you know what he is thinking. Just a side note... where I live as a probie you don't get time to work out, I would take it if it were offered.

[captstanm1]

Truck6alpha and temptaker are on target I think.

Why does this sound like the beginning of a sexual harassment case???? Why is that always the first thought.

I tend to believe the officer may be pushing her to help her improve her performance because he recognizes the potential she has. I have had female firefighters and male firefighters work for me and have identified to both genders the need to improve on upper body strength. Most people dont initially pass that around the firehouse..."Oh..by the way..the Capt said I was weak!"...They simply change their activities and it appears natural. I wonder how many of the others in the station received the same talk and no one knows or admits it. I wonder if the Officer may be acting on something that came down from above.

You have a right to be concerned...and if you still have concern...go to the officer and express your concern. Not in a way that you are bitching, just present it in a way that you are working to improve and want to understand the basis for the problems he mentioned.

[SmkeaterChic]

Did you have to take the CPAT? I would say that that takes some serious strength. Do you have any brothers there that you are comfortable working out with? If so, inform him that you will work out in a group with them on your shift day. At our department, there are 7 females and most of them work out with a group of people. Even the guys group up and work out. The guys here that work out are very helpful and full of positive spirit. I love to work out with certain people here. We push each other further, but in positive way. They have never put me down. I realize that your situation may be different. But that seems to work here. As far as your Lt., maybe they should implement physicals every year. That will let them know about who is in physical shape and serious about their job. Don't let him intimidate you!!!!

[ptfd]

My lt. and one other guy are the only 2 that work out at my station on my shift (out of 9 of us). And the one only does cardio, not weight training. That really only leaves my Lt. to work out with anyway. He does not say anything to the other 6 guys who do nothing and are a bit overweight. We do not have yearly physicals. We are talking about getting one put together, but it would be strictly voluntary, with days off as incentive for passing. I have every intention of participating. I did not have to take the CPAT, it was an agility put on by the local fire academy. Pulling hose, hooking up hydrants, moving dummies, raising ladders, etc. I passed it fine, and could again today, probably with a better time. There are guys on the dept. that are a good 300lbs. I could not pull them from a fire, but lots of guys could not. Where should my standards lie?
Truck6alpha, I did ask him at the meeting where he thought I should be, give me what you think I should be able to lift and do. He said that he could not do that becasue he did not know where I was right now, that he woudl have to evaluate me to see where I am, and that there should be no top out. I agree that I should not just say that I can lift X weight so I can quite, but where does he expect me to be? I can not get an answer on that. I have now lifted with him 2 days,and he has commented that I am stronger then he thought, but nothing else really. He is gone next cycle, so it will be about 2 weeks before he is back and he says he expects to see improvement in order to prove to him I am working on it. I guess he is just trying to be helpful ?, but his way about it seems a bit hard on me. Thanks for everyones advice.

[SmkeaterChic]

Nobody should have to pull a 300lb firefighter from a buring house, unless he is 7'. And even then, anyone would still need help. As long as you are doing what you feel is right and nobody is complaining, stand your ground. You are making the effort to be the best firefighter you can be, by taking personal time to prime your body for the worst. I would be worried about the other 6 who don't care enough about themselves to be the best pulling me out of a burning building. Keep us updated.

:D

[captstanm1]

So if you weigh 300# and are under 7' is that ok? What if the vixtim is 300# and a civilian?:rolleyes: Do we just leave em because they weigh too much??? I am not sure how the previous reply relates to her issues...but...You are right...not many of us (myself included) could remove them alone.

Her issue is a question of being treated fairly. If others are not being made to work out and "get in shape" then she is being treated unfairly. However, It seems to me that the Lt. may be trying to help her in her career by pointing out her weak areas and helping her work for improvement. She is new...and this leads to the Statement "cant teach an old dog new tricks." If those 300# fireifghters have not worked out to this point in their career, it will not change. Perhaps this is a new thing the department is trying...sort of a health and wellness program.

If you are still concerned of the fairness, I suggest you sit and talk with the Lt. in open forum and discuss it. Ask for a clarification of the mission as well as the desired outcome. Ask why you have been singled out.

Good luck....

[SmkeaterChic]

Once again Captstanm you blast someone else's comment. I think that if you read my post completely, I didn't say I wouldn't pull 300# individual out of house. Being that, that happens to be part of our job, or at least mine, that shouldn't have been a question. And if you read further into my post it did relate the subject at hand as did my previous post before that one. He who spreads negativity is a very sad person himself. Find a new hobby.

[Temptaker]

Ptfd

A thought came to me from your last post.

My lt. and one other guy are the only 2 that work out at my station on my shift (out of 9 of us). And the one only does cardio, not weight training. That really only leaves my Lt. to work out with anyway. He does not say anything to the other 6 guys who do nothing and are a bit overweight.

Maybe he has tried to say something to the other guys and just can't get them motivated and wants to use you working out as a tool to motivate them. It might sound strange, but I have seen it happen here. Regardless of the fact that you are part of the team the guys are still going to talk. Being a woman you walked into was has traditionally been a mans' domain. Men are by nature more competitive than woman, we nurture, they beat the hell out of each other. If you Lt. turns around and makes a comment about how strong you are, infront of all of them, say at dinner or something. That is going to have an impact on them.

It may be that he has singled you out because he KNOWS that you work out. He wants the other guys in the station to work out. They have all probably been there long enough that they aren't that intimidated by him. You being a probie, he has more leverage with. I don't honestly believe that he would see it as manipulating you, more like an opportunity to increase the health of the station overall. You might wonder why he wouldn't say anything about it specifically, honestly if I was in his position I wouldn't say anything either, ony because slip of the tongues happen too easily. If he is trying to motivate these guys by using "the girl" as an example, them finding out would defeat the whole purpose. Some people might get a bit high on themselves knowing they were being used in that capacity.

I also agree with Capstan that it may be a part of a new health and wellness program. If non of the other guys in your house workout, maybe something did come down that he isn't allowed to share with you.

I just don't think you should assume it is sexual harassment or that he has any other motivation other than to help you and the dept, unless he does something obvious. There are too many possibilites to speculate WHY a person does something, and if it is something that he can't tell you, and an accusation is made, I don't think it would go very well for you. You could just ask him when you are working out one day (when you are spotting him) why he doesn't make the men workout. You never know he might just turn around and say he has tried, and he's hoping if they see you doing it they will start.

[ptfd]

I dont really look at this as a sexual harassment issue, more just being unfair. In regards to the 300 lb. guy, would I work my @ss off to get him out, yes, but the comment was made in regards to what expectations should be on firefighters, should it be that you have to be able to remove every weight class from a structure. I would have to side with no. Not to be unfair to certain groups, but to be realistic. My offense was taken to my lt. commments based on the fact that he has said that he has not heard of any, nor seen any instance where I was not able to perform the task asked of me. Because he has not seen the limits of my strength ability, I do not see it as fair to put in my monthly reviews (which stay with me and affect future promotions) that I need to improve my strength, solely based on him looking at my body size. That is more where I have the problem then him forcing me to work out at work. I have a routine that I do at my gym on my off days that works well for me. I have to forego, or at least change that for now, and that is not great, but i can live with it. I do not like having reviews affected not by my ability, but by my looks (I am small and look weaker than I really am). Thanks for the help. Sleeping on it and reading these has really helped put a new perspective on everything. Sorry if I caused tensions in the forum to rise.

[SmkeaterChic]

ptfd

I think you know what your doing. As long as you don't doubt yourself, "everything will turn out lovely". (song)
Good to hear from other female rookies. Good Luck!

Sarah

[Temptaker]

Ptfd

Don't worry about tensions. We all have our own opinions about things, that is the whole point in asking a question on these forums. There is bound to be side discussions whenever there is more than one opinion posted. The hope is that through all of the responses we can all learn something and make more informed choices. You and your post didn't cause any tension, in fact it may have helped another FF out there who has the same or similar question but didn't know how to address the subject.

I do agree with you that his treatment of you may not be fair. Where I am from there are only 7 women out of 800 FF. Women are not accepted on the job very easily here. Most woman FF I know have had to work twice as hard as most of the men. That isn't fair, but it is the nature of the beast. Here if they like you and think that you have a good future, they will push you. Not because they want to see what you are made of, but in the event you get transfered to another station the transition will be easier. They knew everything about you before you ever walked in the door. Up here you do your first 6 months in one station (they find your weaknesses), next 6 month you go to another (they iron out the ones found in the first station), once probation is over you go back to your hiring station, but because you are junior if someone is sick you are the fill in. If he works you hard now, you can believe that will go with you wherever you go. FF are worse for gossiping then a bunch of old neighbourhood women, they know everything about everybody. If the only thing you have to work on is your strength, that's probably a pretty good place to be in.

Robin

[SmkeaterChic]

Temptaker

Very well put. What department are you from? 800 people? WOW! We have 128 with 7 females. I can only imagine.

Sarah

[Temptaker]

Hi Sarah,

I'm actually a nurse at the moment, trying to get into Vancouver city loc 18. They really do have 800 FF 7 of which are woman. I work with the BCPFF allot up here, so I am already privy to a considerable amount of info that as an outsider I wouldn't normally have access to. Before I seriously thought about becoming a FF I asked a great number of FF, what problems they have with women in the service, because I don't want to be part of that problem. I also spoke to the women that are working in Van about different experiences they've had both good and bad.

I actually had a FF tell me that I couldn't kick a door in if I had to because I am a woman. I wasn't going to say anything in response to his comment, as it turned out I didn't have to. There was a Capt there who knows me, and he very quickly jumped in and told him I would have no problem kicking a door in. He has seen me kick a door. :) I do kick boxing as part of my cardio routine. Anyway it shut the guy up really fast and I'm sure he felt a bit stupid because he opened up his mouth in front of everyone and got shot down.

There are 12 depts in my immediate vacinity, so I have options as to which I would like to go to. I like and want the tradition, some of the women I talked to think I am nuts for wanting in Van because simply because of the stigma that is attached to being a woman in the fire service up here. Other younger depts don't have that same stigma. They still treat women differently then men, I don't want any special consideration because I am a woman. Over the years lots of woman have been hired by Van, but eventually most leave to go to a different dept, a good number of them never should have been FF to begin with. They were hired because a quota had to met. That isn't acceptable to me. I could walk into at least two of the depts here right now and get hired, but it would be because I am a woman, not because of my ability. Since I don't want to be hired based on the fact that I am a woman, even though I know it will be a contributing factor, I am taking extra classes and I've got a couple FF here that compete in the combat regularly who are helping me train. We use the combat challenge as a major part of the physical agility test. There has never been a woman up here who has done the combat in under 4 minutes her first time. I want to do it in 3:30. It isn't because I want to compete with the men, although I am using their times as a motivation tool. It is because the biggest problem they have with women is they figure that physically we can't do the job. When they originally allowed women into the service up here, the men wanted the physical test time to be 4 minutes, the woman wanted it 7, they actually set it at 5:30. I know it can be done by a woman in allot less time. One of the woman here, who competes, did it in 2:21.

I made a point of saying to ptfd that she shouldn't assume what her Lt is doing is sexual in nature because that is the second biggest problem up here. The woman that are successful in Van have all had someone take them under their wing so to speak when they were rookies. Granted they did get put through hell, but they now have a respect from their male counterparts that they probably wouldn't have otherwise. I honestly feel that it is possible someone could have made a comment about the fact that she is a woman, even though there is nothing lacking in her performance. If her Lt feels she has what it takes, he might think he's doing her a favor rather than treating her unfairly. That is what has happened up here. Not everyone is happy about woman in the service, and that is a fact that we all have to live. I have done the same thing with male nurses, I feel very strongly "WE", (Doc, nurse, medic, police or FF) are generic. When you are at work it doesn't matter if you are a man or woman or green talking ape, all that matters is you can do the job, and follow orders.

So that is me... sorry it's so long.

[SmkeaterChic]

Temptaker

Don't worry about your reply being too long. You seem to be very wise. When i have questions I hope to have your opinion. I am training for the combat challenge also. I was planning on one in Rockford, IL on June 8, but I am not sure I will be ready. I will definitely compete at Battle Creek, MI on July 7. Let me know where you will be competing at. Hopefully we will all make it to Nationals.

I will have to agree with you about wanting to be hired for my ability, not for my gender. Having 793 men to 7 women has got to be tough situation. For the most part in our department, the women are pretty well respected. But we still have the few that are from the old school and they will never accept it. (For the most though, the few keep it to themselves) I think when they see women work for what they want, they tend to be more open. The guys see me up in the weight room with the weight vest on, lifting weights, running and working as an adult explorer on the weekends and I think they just see me as "one of they guys". I love to work out with some of them. We have fun while motivating each other. I guess the women here are lucky in that stand point. But I always will feel like I have to above and beyond, but that feeling is on me.

Good to hear from you,
Sarah

[captstanm1]

smkeaterchic

Was not blasting your comment. Just making an observation that related to all firefighters.... Chill

[Temptaker]

SmkeaterChic

Me wise... hehe... that is kinda funny. :D No seriously thanks for saying that, I hope one day I'll be wise, until then I'm just going to keep my head down, my mouth closed, and try to stay out of the way.

There are lots of guys, in the different depts, that do respect woman FF. Unfortuneately the women FF here have been given power that they never should have been. Now a good number of the male FF feel that they have to walk around on eggshells all the time, for fear that someone will scream sexual harassment or discrimination. I don't want them to feel that way with me. There have also been instances here where women have refused to do things based on the fact that they are women. I don't think that's right. We all knew what the risks were, so don't try to change the rules half way through. The male FF that I've worked with already more or less consider me 'one of the guys', they think it's great fun to play pranks on me. :) They were nice enough to foam my car once, I came out of the station and thought someone had washed it, it was dark and I saw the bubbles. By the time I got home, my blue car was black from all the crap that had stuck to the residual foam... hehe...rotters!

I wont say they respect me in terms of FF, because I haven't earned it. It is because of things they said to me I decided to pursue the career. I always knew if I was a man I would have been a FF, until recently didn't really think women should be in fire. Those who know me have been really encouraging, and have answered all of my ridiculous questions. The people here on the forums have been great too. :D

I like you wear a weighted vest, usually when I am just doing cardio. I don't know where I'll be competing yet... have to be hired first, hopefully I'll get into a station that already has a team, or is thinking about having one. I'm pretty sure that everyone has to be from the same station to compete as a team. I don't know if I want to go in as an individual yet or not.

We don't have jr or explorers here. The local volly dept wont let me vol cause I live one block too far east:( even though if I didn't, I would still be in another depts jurisdiction.:rolleyes: Doesn't make sense to me...

I think I will always feel like I have to work above and beyond too. That was one of the things that really concerned me about being a FF. I know I can physically do the job now, but will I be able to in 10 or 15 years? One of the things that helped me over that is the woman here who did the combat in 2:21 is nearly 10 years older than I am, she was 2 years older than I am now when she started.

If I have a clue about what your asking I probably will post something when you ask a question. I hope you will do the same, I actually have a question in extrication if you want to take a look at it. Titled 'Large dog' I think.

Stay safe and good luck with the Combat. :)

Robin