illegal interview ???'s

[andigirlff]

I am a volunteer firefighter and tested for a full-time career position with a medium sized fire department. I was elated to find out that I got the highest score on the written portion of the test. The panel interview however, was not what I expected and need some advice/opinions. The format was 4 interviewers asking each applicant the same four questions. However, after the four questions, I was asked additional questions which included questions about my kids (their ages) and I found myself justifying whether or not I "knew what I was getting into" and "whether I had thought this out or not". I felt that they (really it was just one of the four - a 20 year vetern male firefighter) were challenging me based on the fact that I am the mother of small children. I think I handled it okay, but I did get a bit defensive and I don't think the interview went as well as it could have. I compared notes with other interviewees (all male - I was the only female that got an interview) and they weren't asked additional questions at all, much less about whether they had young children. I won't know my final ranking for awhile. I'm quite sure that if I complain in any fashion I'll NEVER be hired by that department. What do you think? Ever experienced this?

[captstanm1]

Well....in my experience they should not be asking you any questions they did not ask the other people being interviewed unless they were unclear on an answer and needed to ask you additional information.

When I interviewed people we had a specific set of questions and each person on the panel asked so many questions. I know we were instructed by the personnel and EEO folks (YUK) that we had to ask each question exactly the same each time we interviewed.

So...you have three options....
#1 You can burn bridges and call the personnel folks and mention unfair hiring practices
#2 You can sit back and hope you get hired
#3 Apply elsewhere and give it your best shot...after all..do you want to work for a department that treated you that way in an interview anyway?

[andigirlff]

I think you're right about my three options. I THOUGHT this was the department I really wanted to work for, but now I'm not sure. I know there are attitudes like his all over the fire service, I was just shocked to see it in the interview. You'd think they'd cover it up better. If I complained through appropriate channels what do you think they would do? Re-interview me?

[lutan1]

Sounds highly inappropriate for an interview.

If you were to question it and take it higher though, I think it'll only put you in bad light for the next interview.

These sort of issues really smell of "retribution" for the candidate....

It'd be interesting to see the results of the interview. Good luck!

[andigirlff]

I'll let you know what the result is.

[jiffy911]

Best of luck to you Andigirl!! I agree with the others--I can't imagine that those questions were appropriate in an interview. If you do get hired and end up working there, I wish you the best. It sounds like you are an intelligent and competent person, and you'll prove that to them eventually. :)

[captstanm1]

Good luck...let us know how it turns out...

Just remember...there are other jobs... Do some soul searching.

[GENAFIRE]

Andi, hate to tell you this girlfriend but you are entering the world of "The Last Good Ol boys Club!",lol...
No offense but thats nothing, If the simple questions bothered you I hate to tell ya ,you may be in for a rude awakening. Affirmative action,yah,yah...but reality is this occupation is especially tough for women. Sometimes its the mental B.S. you have to tolerate from testosterone charged young macho guys, sometimes its the constant critisism and doubt from the old timers that think women shouldnt be here....Back when I first tstarted I went thru pure hell at one Dept. ,me being only female and 30 guys (who under all circumstances right or wrong)always backed eachother,alienating or harrassing me.I got an ulcer from worrying about what was gonna happen next...name calling,teasing,being left out,given hardest tasks to do...getting pie'd again...
(this is a hunting manuever where the crew hunts you down,out of trees where your hiding if they have too,strap you to a miller board with a running hose in your face,dump a gal trash can of ice water on you,{all with hose in face},then proceed to cover you with pies made from all food scrap leftovers,kitchen grease,shower smegma,hyou name it:eek: ....then after craming bannannas anad peanut butter in every available orafice:eek: ,taking on one occasion Fire engine Red dye of some sort...and dying your Beautiful Blonde hair Bright Red...as to not clash with the Engines and Trucks...and then leaving you like this for few hours while the station dog proceeds to do his part and help clean you up!..
But this was on a good dayh..lol...you cant believe some of the crap I have put up with....Ive never been one for the "Im telling on you!",theory...but had no choice and now there are some rules and the females who work there can benefit from my pain...
I think I am a massochist though because despite all the crap you have to deal with,I still loved those guys anyway,and you know its always a challange working with men,its probably part of the reason your drawn too it.And we both know that its much more fun and exciting working with all these stud muffins than being stuck in some office with a bunch of bitchy chatty Cathies...lol
So unless your maliciousely attacked verbally or something or intentionally targeted my advice to you is accept it as part of the job description(dont take no **** from anyone)but dont sweat the small stuff either...
good luck too you!:D

[andigirlff]

stroutkristen: I was wondering if the other applicants happened to have families? Yes, most of the ones I talked with do have families. For the record, these kinds of questions (family status) are not just inappropriate, they are illegal (I've done a bit of research since the interview). However, I have not choosen to fight this battle. ("Choose your battles" is one of my favorite motto's too!)

You obviously feel should develop a "thicker skin" and I should put up with a little bit of discrimination, but how much should that be? Should we all put up with getting pie'd (as described by Genafire above)? When do we stop telling the women to be less sensitive and just start telling the men to behave a little better? :mad:

[andigirlff]

Kristen - You're talking about something different than I am. The good natured teasing and pranks that a rookie endures is usually a postive thing that bonds us together. I'm talking about the kind of behavior designed to hurt; whether it is discriminatory behavior that keeps certain kinds of people from getting jobs in the fire service or behavior designed to harass and isolate them once they get the job. Sometimes it's the teasing a rookie gets that goes to far - like being "pie'd". In time I'm sure you're experience and understand the difference.

[SGFDQueen]

Why is this?
If a man applies for a fire chief's position and he had a family, he is considered responsible. If a woman applies for a fire chief's position and she had a family, she is considered to have baggage(as in being too soft or too many commitments).
Angiegirl, if they did it to you, then they are doing it to other female applicants. It is wrong. It is discrimination. I've been in your place where I didn't say anything and I let it slide. It was a hard mountain to climb to get back up there.
I agree with Kristin ONLY abouth the thicker skin. You need it because some firefighters are so miserable with thier lives that they want you to feel the same way. I think this goes for any job. And yes I have had jobs with other women. I enjoyed it also, but I like helping others better.
I have seen the children with aids. I have seen the homeless people. I have seen elderly people abused so bad it is unspeakable.
We all see this Kristin, and this is a message for you personally-I am a firefighter, not a fireman. You can call yourself a fireman and not get offended, but if you call a man a mother(which I am) he will be offended.

[andigirlff]

Thanks - I was wondering if everyone feels as Kristen apparently does. I think it's obvious why they would ask me about my kids and not the male applicants. I think it reveals their underlying attitude. What really gets me is that this discrimination (if it is that) during the interview may mean I won't get the job. I won't need to work on getting a "thicker skin" if I never get the job in the first place.

[andigirlff]

My post above was in response to SGFDQueen's post. Looks like Kristen and I were on at the same time and it looks like I was replying to her when actually I hadn't read her post yet. Now that I have . . .

I'm baffled. In light of what you just posted I really don't understand where you are coming from. My perception of you, from everthing you've posted in this thread, is that you don't believe that bias against women exists, yet now you post information that tells us that you have suffered - lost a job - for being a woman. I had assumed you'd had landed a career fire position without any hint of discimination and you were now enjoying a career working side by side with men who respected and supported you.

You mention that the women were the most disciminatory against you and I've found that to be true as well. We don't do a good job of supporting each other. But do you realize that based on your posts, whether you meant it that way or not, I felt very unsupported by you. The men that posted in this thread came off as much more sympathic and supportive than you did. Maybe you were just playing "devil's advocate" or trying to help me see the other side of things.

I didn't write in so that people could tell me "you poor thing" and make me feel better. I really did want opinions. My decision not to complain about my interview was based in part by advice like yours not to be "so sensitive". I don't feel 100% comfortable letting this go. Someone has to stand up someday and say "this isn't right," and force things to change. But it's not going to be me this time.

[SGFDQueen]

Kristin,
I have to agree with AndiGirlFF. If you look at the thread I started on the difference between FIREMAN and FIREFIGHTER, you will notice that the women's posts are neutral or the "you poor girl" thing. I have had more support from the men who post. You do come across with a poor attitude when it comes to women's rights. You may not mean it this way, but I thought to point it out also. No, this is not bash Kristin Day. Maybe we can call it Open Kristin's Eyes Day. You are a woman. You are different from the men. Celebrate your womanhood. Don't sacrifice your femininity.

If any readers are sensitive, please skip this next part. I had a co-worker tell me the other day he didn't trust anything that walked around bleeding for a week and didn't die. Women are stronger than men think. They just don't understand us fully, that is why they do things to try and prove we aren't as useful as them. Its all about male pride. If their part of reproduction was to give birth, the human population would cease to exist.

I have found respect from my fellow firefighters by speaking up. It doesn't mean I'll get my way, but they don't run over me anymore.

ITS TIME TO SPEAK UP, KRISTIN.

[SGFDQueen]

Kristin,
I don't mean to hurt your feelings. I'm just trying to say that if you let them pick on you they will. I've endured a little torture, also,but I do say when its enough. I don't know you, just what you post. You sometimes seem like a caring, sensitive individual. Other times you may just be having a bad day. I know this post is supposed to be about Andi's illegal interview, but the underlying problem stands out. Men and women discriminate against female firefighters. I have even had my father, a fire chief, ask me what in the h*%$ I'm doing trying to work as a firefighter. I replied by saying," I just want to be like you Dad."
You don't know me, either. I was harassed so much when I was pregnant with my second child, that I almost miscarried from the stress of holding my comments in. I was harrased about maternity leave. I needed 6-8 weeks off. That's standard. But, it was ok for other guys in the department to take off 6 weeks family medical leave when their wives had babies. What's the difference? I understand my father was just speaking as a dad. He knows first hand how dangerous a job it is.
I just don't like to see other women out there taking abuse, like it seems you have. They only dish out what you let them.
Take care Kristin. We are in this together.
Your SIS(Sister in Service)
Shannon (The Queen)

[wilson_tammie]

andigirlff, that sound ridiculous that they would ask you about the age of your kids and stuff like that......why would that matter? how long ago was your interview? have you found out yet?

[andigirlff]

I'll find out about the interview in a few weeks and will post the results. Thanks

[Quint1Medic]

There are specific guidelines for what questions can and cannot be asked at any interview, as well as how questions can be asked. These are available to anyone who has the common sense to ask for them, and any agency who ignores the guidelines during interviews is asking for trouble.
There's a difference between violating proven interview policies and station hazing, which is frequently too creative to even try to preempt!
Since this was the original issue, perhaps we could stop squalling about thick skins (which we ALL need - the guys for dealing with scared administrators, and the girls for dealing with the guys)-and address andigirl's concern?

[captstanm1]

As I said in my initial post on this thread, I think the questions are inappropriate and the interview should be looked into. As I said, I have participated in interviews and there was a set forum for which we did it. The questions were pre-determined and non gender specific and each question was asked to each prospective employee. In fact there were always several different questions and we would split them up among the interviewers. You were required to READ the question not paraphrase it in any way. AND>>>There was always someone from personnel in the room as an observer.

I say go for it and give em hell. You can come work for me...It seems you got GRIT! (as John Wayne would say)

[ems56]

I feel that the interview questioning should be looked into a bit further. It maybe something la jit. But it sounds funny to me to ask a female and not a male the same questions. I am a volunteer firefighter but years ago I had an interview with a paid department and I wasn't asked anything about family/children, they did ask what my interests were outside of ff/ems. I was in no way offended by anything they asked me. If fact the Battalion Chief was wanting to offer me the position but because I was not going to be 18 upon completion of the Academy, he couldn't. That was the first time that a male was excited about a female being a firefighter.
My volunteer department has alot to learn about harassment in any form. Example: I have a particular male that sees fit to not tell me important patient information on a call because he says I was yelling at everyone, all I was doing was making sure proper equipment was coming off the rigs (not all of our firefighters are aware of what needs to come off). This certain call was MVA involving a motorcycle off the road, pt unconscious. I arrived to find a male laying face down in pool of blood on rocks. His bike was on top of him. Once we got the bike off, I checked for pulse etc... and found none but also found his back was mush, when we rolled him, blood was pooled in his face, his chest was mush also. I stated that we should call it but my EMS Capt (male) said no we will start (pt had also hit numberous trees). I didn't argue at that time. Paramedics arrived and asked me why we started and thus I explained. The medic trying to tube pt said, loud enough for the EMS Capt & Dep Chief to hear, whose bright idea was it to start. He was extremely angry and stated the pt is obviously DOA and just makes an additional burden on the family (also found out the pt throat had been completely crushed). I had asked my Dep Chief what the down time was and he told me that I had no right to know that information. I was furious. When we got back to the station, I made my comments clear. I was told that I could get days on the street for disobeying my chiefs and not start CPR on a pt. The Dep Chf also advised me the down time on the pt was 18min approximately before EMS arrival. I have 15 yrs experience, I feel that I do my job well even the medics have complemented me on my skills and knowledge so I was very offended by his discussion. I told him that if the EMS Capt had called it nothing more would have been said but because it was me there was an arguement - he agreed with me. Not looking at the regional training and guidelines, my department set up their own stating that we start efforts on anything except decaps, rigormortous, brain matter showing. I agrued this until I was blue in the face and I got nowhere. But I did advise them, them can do as they wish but they will not take me down in their games; I will do my job as I was trained to my certification under the laws and guidelines that my state uses. If they have a problem with that so be it. I got tired off them walking all over me like I was a piece of carpet.
Sorry, I didn't mean to ramble on but it goes with the female vs male firefighter. It also shows up with the communications center too. Certain firefighters have trouble with female dispatchers. All this just really irks me. I tell them like is it if they don't like they don't have to listen eventually they'll get over it.

[burnmup]

I am employed with a paid department (just completed my first year) and am on the recruiting and hiring committee. A couple of months ago, we held an interview process where we had a panel of 6, (4 firefighters, 1 Asst. Chief, and 1 HR Rep.). Being new to the process, we (firefighters) did not really know the legal ins and outs of what we could or could not ask. It was a very difficult process, mentally and emotionally. We had several set questions we asked every applicant. We were trying to get the applicant's to relax and open up, showing their true personalities, not just that they knew the right answers to give. We were told by our HR Rep. that we could not ask marital status, age, or if any children; but, if the applicant brought up marital status or children, we could ask them to describe or elaborate. In general, most of the applicants did share this information. I am the second female in our department. For the most part, I have not had any problems from the guys about my being female. Most of the problems come from the older "good ol' boys" (most of them really don't care one way or the other as long as they aren't bothered by anyone) and from the wives of the firefighters that don't know me. I have made some very good friends in the firefighters and with their wives. I hope that this one experience doesn't dim your spark. You are always going to have someone pushing your button trying to get a reaction. I personally would not do anything about the interview question, only because my philosophy is that I will be here a lot longer than those with the old way of thinking, they will be retiring about the time I am moving up in the ranks. Most firefighters that I know are very supportive of male or female firefighters - if they can do the job. That should be the only stipulation.

[andigirlff]

Kristen asked: After all this....if they want to hire you....would you accept? That's a good question and one I'm thinking a lot about. I'm with a wonderful volunteer department now and may just stay here regardless of if I get offered this job or not. However, I would love higher levels of training than my current department can offer or support (like Paramedic instead of EMT, higher Haz-Mat levels, swift-water rescue, etc). To do that, I have to move up to a career position with a larger department.

Kristen: out of curiosity: are you a full-time paid firefighter, paid-on-call, volunteer or not employed at all yet?

[RoryEl]

burnmup and andigirlff gave you good advice. If as you say, the information was solicited, then there's a problem and you have some options.
File a complaint, with whom, and the timing; or do nothing.
I'd seek advise from someone with expertise in this area before making a move. You want to retain all your options.