Winches for Victim Raises

[fire-inst]

We had a discussion on using vehicle mounted electric winches in place of rope hauling systems the other day and I was asked why we did not do it. I told the person for starters our fire truck is not winch equipped. My question to you is what do you feel about the practice when hauling victims and rescuers up a vertical surface?

[Flochief]

This is a question that comes up every time I teach a rope rescue class. One thing I have learned in all my years is never say never. Having said that I always tell my students never use an electric winch. This is the reason why. I have seen a winch stick while pulling, this was not with a human load. If not for someone unplugging it, the winch would have locked up or burned up. If it had been a human load it could have caused injury. But I have seen the time when we didn't have a rope system (years ago) and had a winch on a 4 x 4 truck not a FD vehicle and we got a person up a steep incline.

So I always tell students to weigh the odds. If a rope system is close by and can be used by quailfied people wait. If not you have to do what you have to do. Then keep your fingers crossed and say a prayer that every thing goes ok.

I know this is not much of an answer but hope this helps.:p

[TRK4]

If you read the paper work with all winches it will say not for the lifting of people or rescue of people or some such disclaimer.
Now then.
How do other people know more than those that make the winches.
Then you have people that want to use the winch that don't know the differance between and RV or industrial rated winch.

[cfdeng3]

There are a few reasons that you should not use a winch. First, some of the ones they sell for confined space rescues are not rated for a two person load. Second, if it is an electric winch like you mentioned, if the human load does become tangled on something, the winch will keep trying to pull, possibly causing severe injuries. If you were hauling by hand, there is a good chance you would feel that extra resistance and question why, where the winch would not.

[ADSNWFLD]

This is one of those cases where NEVER should be used.

A electric, hydraulic or any other powered winch should not be used to haul a person or stokes with a person in it. To relay a story, during a confined space drill, the entrant was bbeing hauled up with a haul safe, he got his helmet stuck on the way up, and even with only people power he was almost injured. If a powered winch was hauling he would have been hurt or killed, no doubt.

Power equipment can't tell if a person is stuck, and you will break before any part of the system will. A haul safe is a 4:1 MA you won't have a problem hauling someone, using power is lazy and hazardous.

Never use a powered device to haul a person.

[lutan1]

We also teach that winches and cranes can not be used for life safety and rescue. (Don't mix up vehcile winches with life safety winches such as those manufactured by Unique Concepts, Unique Concepts (http://www.uclsafetysystems.com) )

Having said that though, with correct lock out and tag out procedures, it is perfectly acceptable (This is based on our local regulations) to use these devices for static anchor purposes to mount rescue systems such as the 4:1 on to.

[MtnRsq]

ADSN/WFLD - I am going to disagree w/you on this one, at least to some degree.

I agree that yanking people around by the Warn winch on the front of your truck is not something that you want to be doing.

There are windlass type winches and similar devices that are safe/functional for hauling loads that include people. Some of these are designed specifically for rescue use and are sometimes set-up as portable devices or may be in fixed mounts. They often do not use wire, but use rope for the haul and allow for slip (vs. a hard static/continuous pull) that can be controlled along the capstan. These devices allow for significant "feel" for the load and high levels of control - including it's release (we used a really slick French-built unit while doing some crevasse rescue work with Parks Canada SAR staff a couple of years ago). While most are hand powered, some are powered by small gasoline engines.

Use of ANY of these requires highly skilled/experienced operators and should not be used without proper training. Many of these devices are quite expensive but work quite well.

Don't forget - you can seriously injure someone with rope systems as well.

Like many things - they are tools and have appropriate/inappropriate uses.

[dfd3dfd3]

I would never use a winch rescue or otherwise for the above stated reason that u can cause serious injury to a person if they get hung up. Ill never use one, but ill concede that if u are trained with a rescue winch and keep the victim in your line of sight the whole time then maybe id consider using it but probably not.

[RSQLT43]

I would not have a problem using an electric winch, use a rope as a back up line, and assign a person to be a spotter, you should have someone watching the litter come up no matter what kind of haul system you use, so there is no reason the victim or rescuer should be ripped apart before the spotter tells the operator to stop.

[lutan1]

The photo below is of a UCL 5 Piece System with a digital 100 foot hand operated winch. With a quick fit attachment, it can easily be converted over so as a cordless drill can operate it...

[fyrfitr42]

This has been a very good discussion on this age old subject... First of all, I used to say never, never, never, until we were faced with getting on top of the DeBruce Grain Elevator after it exploded. All traditional means for accessing the top, where we had 4 patients, were damaged and compromised. We utilized a crane and a "basket" that was designed for moving personnel to haul rescuers up and people down....... That said, the only true contra-indication for crane or winch use (which was eluded to, but not stated) is the existance of constriction or "snaggs", and should only be used after all other options are exhausted. Communication and line of sight are the key.

[mike021c]

I work in a industrial plant on the fire rescue team... We were told that a winch, vehicle, or crane are to never ever be used other then an anchor point. I beleive it's also an OSHA law they are not to be used on a rescue. We have over 900 confined space's here and there are very few where anything other then a ropse system can be used. We always use rope systems, 3:1 and 4:1's.

[lutan1]

Hey Mike, as per my previous post, check out Unique Concepts from Canada.

Without a doubt, I guarantee you they would have a system for your needs. I strobgly believe after using the UCL equipment very succesfully here in Australia, that tripods and rope systems are a thing of the past.

Davit arms and other systems/configurations on offer by UCL are absolutley incredible and offer amazing ease of use, reliability and safety margins...

Get 'em on site for a demo. Find the hardest confined space entry you work in and get them to demo equipment on it. They use the hand operated digital winches, but the davits also allow you to connect up the trust 4:1's or other rope systems if you wish.

BUT, (There's always a but!) beware- it's not cheap to outlay for the intial purchase but in terms of long term cost savings, it's certainly worth it...;) :)