Passing a school bus on an emergency run!

[rmoore]

Received the following email from a citizen. Her daughter's car collided with a cop car at an intersection in some city I don't even know where this occurred). She asked if emergency vehicles had to stop at stop signs. The cop was on a call and passed a school bus and then ran through, or tried to run through, the intersection, through a stop sign. You won't believe what the cops told this citizen. As you read this, just think what impression we leave on citizens when stupid actions are allowed and then justified by the legal system.

Citizen's Question:
Thank you for responding, Ron. No, I did not receive any information about the question I asked. I did get a few people to respond from some police depts.and they told me it was none of my business and I have no right to even ask this question.

I am thoroughly disgusted with some of our "finest" but I do appreciate your asking. The reason I was trying to find out where this is in writing was because my daughter was in an accident with a police vehicle who passed a school bus at an intersection and slammed into her. They wanted us to believe that they don't even have to slow down and I needed to find this out for my own.

The appeal is done and of course we didn't win. Needless to say I am very disappointed in our local law inforcement. So thank you so much for responding. Jan

My Reply:
"I am sorry to hear about your daughter's collision. I can't speak for the police, but on the fire department side, we are typically very strict on our drivers due to the high exposure to risk that emergency response presents. It is required that our vehicles stop at all red lights, stop signs, and negative right-of-way situations. Even if the traffic light is green, our drivers must be prepared to stop. The driver must have the vehicle under control at all times. Speed cannot exceed 10 miles-per-hour above the posted speed limit and is reduced for bad weather, limited visibility, road conditions, etc. Our FD vehicles are not allowed to drive past a stopped school bus at any time. The bus driver must physically signal to our driver that it is OK to proceed around the bus before we may proceed.

Almost all across the US, the driver of an emergency vehicle who has a collision with a citizen is measured against the definition of a "true emergency". I don't know if this was brought up in your court case or not. This is typically defined as a situation in which immediate threat to life or property is present, and the emergency responder's presence will essentially prevent death or further loss."

[markpery]

Last year in 2002 a volunteer firefighter in N.B. Canada drove a fire truck through a red light and hit a car killing the driver . The firefighter was charged with vehicle man Slaughter and was found
guilty . We are still waiting for his sentencing .The laws in N.B.
states that the driver of a fire truck Abide by the motor vehicle
act,drive the speed limits,stop at all red lights stop for school buses .We in the fire survise and the government are trying to come up with a course for our firefighters .In my fire Dept I think the firefighters can drive the trucks all right but when you turn the lights and sirens on the thing is to learn control there adrenaline
and emotions .

[TCFire]

In NYS passing a school bus with it's red lights flashing is against the law for everybody, including emergency vehicles. I would fully expect to be hung from the nearest tree if one of our vehicles broke that law, much less became involved in an accident. Safe driving of emergency vehicles is absolutely critical for safety and public relations. Coincidentally, we have an EVOC class starting this week at our hall!

One other recent development in our neck of the woods has been kids who have the blue neon lights decorating their cars, some even have blue strobes in the interior of their cars. Technically they are not a 'blue light', but the way they have them switching or blinking on/off has led to some citizen complaints of the 'damn firemen' running them off the road. I know of one case where a license plate was obtained and a NYS Trooper followed up and issued a ticket to the driver. Our local Sheriffs deputies and Troopers have indicated they are more than willing to followup on any complaints we or they may receive.

Drive your emergency vehicles like everyone else on the road is your family!

[Airborne]

I love when I can put my first day of training to good use.

Yes indeed, all emergency Vehicles have to follow traffic laws. Infact, when approaching a red light, any civilian vehicle on the green light side has the right of way, and the emergency vehicle can not proceed through the red light until they have been given the OK by the other vehicle. The OK is or go ahead is given when the other Vehicles have stopped.

[Lewiston2Capt]

TCFire,
Our local Sheriffs deputies and Troopers have indicated they are more than willing to followup on any complaints we or they may receive.

Thats good to know. My understanding was that any of these effects were illegal, but cut some slack by the Police. I have seen some of these cars with red or blue lights either inside their car or on the hood.

[Dalmatian90]

Passing a school bus with it's lights flashing? Don't. ( <-- notice period)

Now, it is an opportunity to pull into the other lane, and wait to the rear of the bus with your lights going. When the bus driver turns off their red flashing lights they can yield to you by sticking their arm out the window and waving you by.

That's what our Troopers do, that's what I do.

[Resq14]

Title 29-A: MOTOR VEHICLES (HEADING: PL 1993, c. 683, Pt. A, @2 (new); Pt. B, @5 (aff))
Chapter 19: OPERATION (HEADING: PL 1993, c. 683, Pt. A, @2 (new); Pt. B, @5 (aff))
Subchapter 1: RULES OF THE ROAD (HEADING: PL 1993, c. 683, Pt. A, @2 (new); Pt. B, @5 (aff))

§2054. Emergency and auxiliary lights; sirens; privileges

5. Exercise of privileges. The operator of an authorized emergency vehicle when responding to, but not upon returning from, an emergency call or fire alarm or when in pursuit of an actual or suspected violator of the law may exercise the privileges set forth in this subsection. The operator of an authorized emergency vehicle may:

E. Proceed with caution past a stopped school bus that has red lights flashing only:
(1) After coming to a complete stop; and

(2) When signaled by the school bus operator to proceed

[engine23]

We stop completely for buses embarking/debarking children. We also turn off lights and sirens in a school zone and drive the posted limit.

[Airborne]

(2) When signaled by the school bus operator to proceed


I think that this is the most important thing to keep in mind. When you don't have the right of way, you must be signaled by the party that has the right of way NO MATTER WHAT before proceding. At an intersection this could be nothing more then the other party comming to a stop. Or with a school bus it could be a hand out the window waving you by.

I have only just started traning and I think that this is one lesson that I have done. That and the fact that it does no one any good if you get into an acident on the way to the call.

[Adze39]

Originally posted by TCFire
In NYS passing a school bus with it's red lights flashing is against the law for everybody, including emergency vehicles.

Same in CT. You can go through a red light or stop sign with due regard for other drivers but you cannot go past a school bus with flashing red lights.

[KParker]

Did this school bus have its red lights flashing? I was not sure from the post, so I figured I would ask for a little clarification. If it did then the police should not have passed the bus, and if it didn't then the police could have passed and then went through the red light with due regard. I guess it depends on whether the bus' red lights were activated.
-Kris

[nutty17]

well, up here in our neck of the woods we were taught to drive like we had a bulls-eye on our truck.

I would also have to agree, perhaps more with some volunteer departments like ourselves due to their lower call-out volume, that adreneline is the biggest factor with driving.

Also, if a citizen ever asked me what standard our drivers were trained to and what laws they had to follow, I would be happy to explain how serious we take driving with lights and sirens and would do everything to allay (sp?) their fears.

Of course if I just blew by a schoolbus do'in ninety in a sixty and caused a big 'ol wreck, I just might not feel like taking to anyone at that partiular time. :)

Shane Desjardines
Asst. Training Officer
Fort George Highway Rescue Society
Highway Rescue (http://www.highwayrescue.ca)

[thesnowman]

In New York State , the law reads, No One is exempt when the Red Lights of a School Bus are on. That includes all emergency vehicles even if you are responding to a call or not.
When safe & quickly as possible the bus operator should shut off the lights & signal the emergency vehicle to pass by. ( Notice the key word "Should" )

[markpery]

The firefighter I previously told you about got his sentencing today.

Firefighter sentence may scare recruits: chief
WebPosted Jan 30 2003 02:20 PM EST

BATHURST – Volunteer fire departments across the country are worried about a possible chill on recruits, now that a former Bathurst firefighter has been given a conditional sentence for dangerous driving causing death.

Of the 5,000 firefighters at work in New Brunswick, 4,500 of them volunteer for the job. It's a big commitment, and the chief of the St. Anne force near Bathurst worries this sentence will make it even more difficult to bring new blood into the ranks. "I imagine this is going to hurt the province. Volunteers are harder and harder to get every day, and it just proved it today that if you do volunteer work and something happens to you you've got to pay the consequences," says Chief Jean-Claude Doucet.

Chris Boucher, 34, was serving under Doucet as a volunteer firefighter when he killed 17-year-old Travis Corrigan while rushing to a blaze in his fire truck in April 2001. During the trial, police and other witnesses gave conflicting evidence about whether Boucher had his emergency lights on, but in the end, he was convicted of the criminal offense of dangerous driving causing death.

He is the first volunteer in Canada to be convicted of a crime while driving an emergency vehicle.

Since the accident, Boucher has suffered from post traumatic stress disorder. He was convicted of drunk driving and lost his license three months after the crash. He worked off an on as a heavy equipment operator, sought psychological counselling to try to deal with the stress of the accident, but had to abandon therapy because he couldn't afford the cost.

Before delivering his sentence, Judge Frederic Arsenault told the court that Boucher obviously felt remorse about what happened and that he wasn't a danger to the community. He also said Boucher needed to separate himself from the community to find ways to heal.

The maximum sentence for dangerous driving causing death is 14 years in prison. Corrigan got much less than that, but his sentence came with a long list of conditions; Boucher is under house arrest for a year, and has an 8 p.m. curfew for six months after that, he isn't allowed to drive for three years, has been ordered to undergo psychological counselling and is prohibited from fighting fires, or attending any fire-related function, for 18 months.

The last condition is toughest for Boucher to accept. "It's like cutting my legs out from underneath me. But that's his decision I guess."

The judge says it's important for Boucher to step back from the fire department so he can recover from the trauma of the accident "without exposing himself to public opinion or comments that might downplay the gravity of the matter."

Boucher's lawyer Jean-Guy Henry says the sentence is "reasonable and adequate" but will have a negative impact on his client's life. "This person is a volunteer firefighter who is being deprived of his driving permit, so definitely that has an impact on his life"

The victim's parents, Brad and Debbie Corrigan, travelled from Ontario for the court proceedings. They say the sentence was fair. "The most satisfying statement that Judge Arsenault made was that Chris cannot drive for three years," says Brad.

Now that the criminal case is over, the Corrigans are pushing for a coroner's inquest to find ways to prevent accidents like this from happening again. Boucher and his lawyer are planning to appeal the original verdict.

As for the St. Anne Fire Department, it will now have to do with one less firefighter. The chief says that's going to hurt, because in the last five years, its volunteer force has dropped from more than 100 to 41 firefighters.

[rmoore]

Here is a follow-up message from the citizen who's daughter had the crash with the responding police car;

"Hi Ron - Thanks for the information. It was nice of you to respond. I wish our depts. here were as accessable to the public as yours. While we were taking a few pictures of the accident skid marks, we were amazed at the speed of our city fire trucks
roaring through the stop sign where in fact, kindergarden children were waiting for their bus. It really is dangerous to ignore this traffic procedure by the emergency vehicles. What is done is done so I do thank you for your help."

Ron Moore

[Weruj1]

our procedure is simillar to was RESQ14 posted, all units are to come to a complete stop and cannot go around unitl the dirver signals so...