DRIVER Dress Standard

[Rammer1a]

Opinions please....Drivers wearing full bunker gear while driving.
Do your Depts have guidelines regarding this. Is it a comfort issue only or is there a safe driving concern....

[captstanm1]

We have discussed this issue on here before.

I am opposed to drivers weraing full turnout gear. I think the coat is the fine line where it becomes a liability (in relation to ability to handle the apparatus.

In my department it varies from shift to shift. There is no concrete policy. One shift captain will not let the guys wear bunker pants and drive and other do. I personnally wear mine at night to facilitate a quicker response. I have been doing it for years and have not had a problem. Some will argue they can not drive with boots on and other say..."NO PROBLEM."

Speaking from experience and personal preference, I would say there is not a problem with bunker pants, but the coat is a bit much.

[Smoke20286]

Our Dept allows individuals to wear what they are most comfortable with. Personally, when driving I do not wear bunkers. I believe that my main responsibility is to get the truck and personel there safely. Once there I change into my bunkers as quickly as possible.

[E229Lt]

Bunker pants, no coat and only with leather boots, not rubber.

[firefighterox]

our guys wear bunker pants usually unless we are giving mutual aid to another town for tankers then we sometimes will and sometimes wont.

[NickSBFD6]

Our offical policy is that ALL members get on the truck fully dressed (drivers included) but, in reality the drivers do whatever is comfortable. I usually wear my pants, but not the coat. Some of our guys drive with coats and helmets too. I drive trucks for my "real" job so it is much more comfortable for me to do without the extra bulk.

-Nick

[WTFD10]

Our official policy is: "apparatus drivers are not required to wear their full turn-out gear while driving to the scene, upon arrival at the scene, if the COMMAND or SAFETY OFFICER dictates, the driver will then don their full turn-out gear (PPE)."

Personally, I do not wear turnouts when driving. I don't have a good feel for the pedals with rubber boots on.

[Chris309]

The only time I really wear my gear while driving is when the weather is not so pleasant or if we're short-handed. Some of our other drivers are pretty hardcore about wearing thier gear to every call. Doesn't really bother me either way. But as some of you mentioned, yeah, driving in rubber boots is difficult at best, probably a bit dangerous. Leather boots are no different than work boots IMO.

[neildonahue]

Stop looking for excuses not to put your gear on.
I can't believe in this new generation of firefighters
that they find it a problem getting ready for whatever they may be responding to at a scene. First of all if it's a chemical situation,
you might be dead as soon as you get out of the truck to put your gear on. It's real funny how you learn things from experience,but have a hard time getting it through the heads of others.Keep your windows rolled up when you arrive at a scene, and be ready to evacuate with your vehicle ready to head away.Years ago we didnt even have bunker pants , we just pulled our boots up. Never wore hoods for our heads, for when our ears started to burn, we knew it was time to get the hell out of there. Every fire situation will have a different twist to it, but waiting for your back up man to put his gear on at the scene doesnt help when your ready to go in with a line or whatever the situation might be. Wearing full gear, including helmet is an advantage when you have your first roll over on the way to a fire. Everyone thinks they are going to arrive at the scene safely, but records will show it does not happen that way every time.
If your the kind of driver having a problem driving with your gear on ,then I recommend that you move to the rear and let someone drive who has no problem driving with his gear on. Today you dont even know if someone wants to firebomb your vehicle as you approach a scene and I'll guarantee you'll be glad you got all your gear on, if it ever happens. Be ready to go ---There's not too many second chance's,
when the ball drops.Today cities and towns are always cutting manpower
and dont give a damn if you have to take care of the situation all by your self.. Stay safe ---Think- Think -Think--- because no one else is going to do it for you.
P/S... When you do have an incident where injuries occur ,whether driving or firefighting, questions will be asked if you had all your safety equipment on.

[Weruj1]

We have no policy on this as well, and it varies with whoever is driving, I have no trouble with either way so long as th rest of it come on when they get there.

[captstanm1]

neildonahue...I have read many of your posts with interest and this one I will take issue with... I am not sure how long you been in the business, but I see you are new to the forums....

If your the kind of driver having a problem driving with your gear on ,then I recommend that you move to the rear and let someone drive who has no problem driving with his gear on. Well..I have been driving fire apparatus for about 23 years now and my preference is to not wear my coat. When I was Chief in one Department and later an assistant Chief I encouraged my drivers not to drive with their coats on because they are bulky and cumbersome and whether you realize it or not they reduce your ability to react effectively. So while you may think that I have a "problem" driving I think I will continue to drive in a manner that has worked for me and my department for years. Oh yea....by the way...Sometimes I do ride backwards.:D
Stop looking for excuses not to put your gear on. I don't think anyone is looking for "excuses" The person who started this thread asked for input.:rolleyes:
First of all if it's a chemical situation, you might be dead as soon as you get out of the truck to put your gear on. Hmmmm..So do you advocate wearing your SCBA and being on air also? Because if you do not...having your gear on and driving into a chemical emergency will simply just make you look "well dressed" when you die. Chemical emergencies (as I hope you know) can kill you with one breath, dressed or not...buy the time you don SCBA....it is too late.:eek:

Today you dont even know if someone wants to firebomb your vehicle as you approach a scene and I'll guarantee you'll be glad you got all your gear on, if it ever happens. If someone is going to "firebomb" you as you arrive, having full PPE on may keep you from getting some thermal burns but again....what is protecting your Respiratory Track.

Wearing full gear, including helmet is an advantage when you have your first roll over on the way to a fire. :rolleyes:

Everyone thinks they are going to arrive at the scene safely, but records will show it does not happen that way every time. With attitudes like your's, I can see why.:eek:

When you do have an incident where injuries occur ,whether driving or firefighting, questions will be asked if you had all your safety equipment on. Now this one you are correct on...however, I do not think that OSHA, NTSB or other investigative agencies will fault you for driving without being in full turnout gear. In fact, I can see where an agency would find fault in an accident involving apparatus where a person was wearing full PPE. In the day of the "over the road air seat" hitting a bump in the road could bounce you enough to drive your helmet into the top of the cab and potentially displacing it to obstruct your vision, causing a hazard. I had a driver in one department that I was a member of wear all his PPE, including hood and his facepiece (or at least attempt to until I stopped him)...How safe is that?????

We are both "old school" and yes, things in this day and age are different from when we started. However, we all need to step into the 21st Century and change with the times.

[hwoods]

My drivers and I DO NOT wear gear when driving, There are just too many things that can go wrong. Several items that I have personal knowledge of are; 1. Turnout pants leg caught button that raised air ride seat, sent driver straight up about 10 inches, catching his legs under steering wheel. 2. Driver moved right leg back to move foot from gas to brake, boot top caught against seat causing difficulty getting foot on brake pedal. and the list could go on.... As a Chief in a VERY busy company, and as one who has driven apparatus for the past 43 years, it is my opinion that it is just unsafe to drive any vehicle wearing turnout gear. Think about this: When was the last time you saw the Chief get out of his buggy wearing his gear? uh huh, thought so. Stay Safe....

[backdraft663]

Originally posted by hwoods
. Think about this: When was the last time you saw the Chief get out of his buggy wearing his gear? uh huh, thought so. Stay Safe....


Very true! Do ou think the chiefs should since people responding in an engine should? I hardly ever see our chief wear his gear, the only time I see him do so if like at a Structure fire when He sometimes goes in to look around or while there doing overhaul, Were a small Department and our chief is the type of person that will get in there and help work, like many Departments where the chief dont do so, There is positives and negitives of that though, But as HWoods said when was the last time you seen your Chief wear his gear while responding? Very well stated HWoods

[FWDbuff]

Hey NeilDonahue....

Esplain to me Lucy.....What do I do about my huge size 13 clogs?? I dont know about the great metropolis of Surprise, Arizona, but the town I work in requires everyone to rotate positions....I am REQUIRED to drive!! Well son, guess what......Seems when Pierce designed the Dash cab, they forgot about large-feeted people. When I wear my bunkers (the boots look like small rowboats) I physically can not operate without touching both pedals at once.

My job, as the chauffer or MPO, is to ensure the safe arrival of the piece and the crew to the scene. I can not do that with my gear on. As for CaptStan's post....WHAT HE SAID! I am curious to your answers to Captstans questions/comments. Do tell us!


FTM=PTB-EGH-RFB! (you can't PTB driving while wearing size 13 boats)

[Dickey]

Our policy is that you will wear bunker gear but it is not strictly enforced. It really is the driver option if they want to or not. In a paid-on-call department, you really don't know who your driver will be till they run through the door. We have some regulars but you can't count on them being there every single time. I personally don't care either way. 12 years ago I was taught with my bunkers on so I really don't give it a second thought and have not had a problem.

The only thing we stress in not to wear your helmet if your driving.

Keep your head down and your powder dry.
_____________________
Lt.Jason Knecht
Altoona Fire Rescue
Altoona, WI

[Firecop2001]

I know Neil Donahue. His advice is invaluable. His experience is countless. Judging his post based on the number of posts he has on some forum is, simply, a stupid thing to do. FWDbuff, if you knew Neil, you'd realize that you are very, very mistaken about him. He has a little bit more fire experience than you give him credit;)Birdman, thanks for all of the great posts...they are very informative.

[WVFDCap]

Whatever is the most comfortable for the driver and gets the rig to the scene safely.

[lutan1]

Years ago we didnt even .....

Neil, I struggle to finish reading your post when you put lines like this in it!:rolleyes:


...we just pulled our boots up. Never wore hoods for our heads, when our ears started to burn, we knew it was time to get the hell out of there.

YYYAAAWWWWNNN!!!!!

Hey Neil- times are changing...:(

[Captain12]

A.ISFFA for Driver/Engineer

Do not ware your Bunker Gear.



B. Your bucker Gear is very restrictive and in my opium should not be worn while driving. Your Boot either Rubber or Leather are to big and will cause you to hit the break or gas or both when you want to do the other task. So Never while you are Driving.


C. At the seen our SOP the D/E shall were bunker pants only, for the most part (raining or very cold) he will put a coat on. And he also shall were a Helmet. Gloves are opp. depending on task.

D. This is also an ID system for us, If you see a firefighter fully bunker out at a working fire by a truck, some officer will order him to do a job, only to find out he said I can't I am driving, just saves time. The Officer knows no coat=Driver.

E, While he is required to not were a bunker coat while at scene he must have it close by. Not still hanging up in station. As we all know Ship may hit the fan and he maybe be needed to go in. Or a firefighter that has been working on a line may need a break and they can switch rolls and you have a new fresh firefight to attack the fire.

Battalion Chief

[Smoke20286]

Firstly Captain12, your Battalion chief needs to get a spell checker, :p

Secondly neil, Statistically , how are you more likely to be injured? In an MVA driving to the scene, or "as soon as you step off the truck" I think the former. Having complete control of several tons of metal, equipment, and fellow firefighters travelling down the road at a fair rate of speed is in my opinion the primary duty of the driver. As I was taught when I came in the job. You are doing no one any good if you do not get there.

[Dalmatian90]

Jeepers, Neil's getting beat up on.

Whatever is the most comfortable for the driver and gets the rig to the scene safely.

Here here.

I've driven with bunkers on, and don't find them to be a problem for me. Usually I'll leave the coat off till I get on scene, but not always.

[Ltmdepas3280]

Originally posted by Dalmatian90

I've driven with bunkers on, and don't find them to be a problem for me. Usually I'll leave the coat off till I get on scene, but not always.

This is our SOG " All drivers must wear there turn out gear " and in 18 years of doing this job I have yet to see any driving problems. As for chiefs not wearing the gear ,all of the on duty chiefs wear the gear to fire calls ...no gear is not an option

[bobsnyder]

I do see Niel's point, actually, and I think that, as a general rule, everyone should be fully geared up on just about any incident scene.

At the same time, I have always practiced what Dal & WVFDCap advocate. Back in the days of manual transmissions, I never wore fire boots to drive. They got in the way, and I had a few near crashes as a result of boots getting hung up on things, particularly on the clutch side. Today, I almost always werar bunkers to drive, because they don't get in my way when I drive automatics, and I like to be geared up and ready for whatever I need to do when I get on scene.

The exceptions to this are (i) tanker-only responses, where I know for sure that I'm going to be just driving water around in circles for hours (I'll still have my gear on board, just not "on bod," so to speak), and (ii) medical assists for lifting or ambulance driving (we don't actually do any of that medical stuff), for which I don't generally wear any fire gear (if the assist is for extrication, forcible entry, or similar, then it's full gear).

Ultimately, I want the driver to get the rig there safely, and if that means no bunkers in a particular situation, then I'd rather have it that way. Still, my preference would be for people to just learn to drive with their bunkers on and get it over with.

[Grit76]

The only time I ever wore a turnout coat driving is when I already had it on at a scene and needed to relocate the apparatus expeditiously.

Same with helmets, except in the open cab days.

[quint1driver]

wouldn't it depend a lot on the chassis of the apparatus you're operating? Our spartan is a total bear to drive, the doghouse is close, even without adding in all the stuff in the pants pockets. Coat? Forget it!! If you were driving something on a commercial chassis with nothing between the driver and officer, maybe you could get away with it. I know my drivers don't wear their gear enroute.

[cozmosis]

Originally posted by neildonahue
Wearing full gear, including helmet is an advantage when you have your first roll over on the way to a fire.

So, what happens when you have a roll-over on the way to a cardiac emergency? Are you going to have full PPE on to protect you?



If your the kind of driver having a problem driving with your gear on ,then I recommend that you move to the rear and let someone drive who has no problem driving with his gear on.

Someone like you, I guess? (BTW, I drive with pants on at night regardless of the nature of the call. I never drive with coat on as it makes things quite cumbersome. I still consider myself a decent driver.)


When you do have an incident where injuries occur ,whether driving or firefighting, questions will be asked if you had all your safety equipment on.

Again, what about those medicals? Those service runs? Are you bunking out for those?

[Weruj1]

Quint1 bring up an interesting point..........I have never had a problem in our custom vehicles, but my feet are wide and in the commercial Freightliner we have the pedals are so close that it is dificult to operate.

[ehs7554]

Wow, I can't believe there is such a big argument on this subject. However, it seems there are many conflicting ideas on this topic so here is my take.....opinion.
#1 For the chemical call (brought up earlier) If I know thats what we are going on, I am not going to get that close...Remeber those Haz-Mat classes...and if I do, my turn-outs alone will not save me.
#2 Roll-Over- Come on so I won't get cut up as bad. Besides, If you have payed attention to your driver/operator classes, a roll over can be 99.999999% avoided. Driver appropriately for the conditions and be aware of your surroundings.
#3 I have worn my gear when it is cold or at night, and I can do it, but I am more comfortable in my uniform, especially if its really hot.
#4 This applies mostly just to me, but I drive a quint, which typically we perform the pumper role more so than the truck company role. I don't need turn outs on to pump the truck or operate the controls.
#5 Lastly, If I do need turn outs on when we arrive on scene, I know I can get them on in under a minute. That's a simple FireFighter I task.

Remember Safety First. Running "HOT" doesn't always mean going as fast as you can (see#2) Do what you think is best. I am only an opinion among many. Stay safe. :)

[leadlo]

When we had manual trannys I would pull up my left boot (that would be rubber, pre-bunker era) this got it over the seat, no hang up. We got bunker gear about the same time we got our first auto tranny and ever since then I drive with my bunker pants on. Have driven with both rubber and leather never had any trouble with either. All of our pumps are Pierce and I also sport a size 13, yes the brake and gas are close but I don't use the brake much :rolleyes:. Our heavy rescue is a Spartan chassis got more hump in the middle than it does drivers seat. Only thing I will say off the line of this post is, if you are responding to a hazmat you should know what your wind direction is.

[Dalmatian90]

Ok, preface this with Dal being cranky over a FedEx I'm desperately waiting for that keeps getting frigged up...so I'm grumpy, I'm gonna bitch, don't take it personally.

Besides, If you have payed attention to your driver/operator classes, a roll over can be 99.999999% avoided

Even better than paying attention in class, pay attention on the road.

Only thing I will say off the line of this post is, if you are responding to a hazmat you should know what your wind direction is.

Provided...
a) You know it's a haz-mat
b) You know where it is
c) You have an option

It just annoys me some of the "classroom" haz-mat "rules" that simply don't function in real life. I know many people live in flat places with road grids, but out here in hilly country with winding roads, and accidents that are sometimes given as vicinities and not addresses, you may be responding to a "Truck v. Car" and a mile before where it was reported, you come around the curve and over the hill and go "Oh Crap!"

The stop and use binoculars is all well and good...we carry on our first-in trucks...provided you actually have sight lines, and like the scenario above, in our area you may actually be on top of the situation before you realize you have a situation. What hills, curves, and trees do in our rural area, the congestion of buildings do in urban cities. You may see smoke rolling from between building mid-block...it's not till you actually arrive you see a bizzillion placards on the truck backed up to the off-street loading dock where the smoke is coming from.

If the rule is approach the haz-mat from upwind, well, do we even respond to any auto accidents or fires, since they all *might* be a haz-mat if the firehouse is downwind? Or do we just modify responses...in this day and age, it would be pretty easy to hook a windvane to the Computer Aided Dispatch and have alarm cards custom made based on current conditions...hehehe...imagine CAMEO intergrated with CAD...never dispatch a downwind company.

Well Neil may have come on a bit strong, in his defense, not that he needs me to do that, we've had a lot of people who either mis-read or just didn't get what he was saying.

He wasn't going Dinosaur, he was pointing out he has been around. Some people thought he was defending what was done because of how it used to be done, and he wasn't.

And for Haz-Mat, I didn't read it as doing a drive-by sizeup of an overturned tractor trailer like you might do a drive-by of a house fire. I read it as in you pull up, realize someone's released a chemical, and the gear gives you some marginal protection while you accelerate out of the area.

Whatever we respond to, you have to evaluate the situation. And that starts when you drive around your district pre-planning, and it continues the moment you come into work and wake up that day -- what's the weather like today? And it continues when the pagers go off, and it continues when you arrive on scene. Thankfully we don't protect target hazards like Abortion Clinics or Federal Courthouses (the city Neil is in does). We do have a correctional center though where someone might want to make distractions for nefarious reasons.

Even if you normally don't wear gear driving, there's certain places that you probably should just do to a heightened chance of bad people trying to bad things. We can't prevent every secondary explosion or exposure, but we can reduce the risks. Yeah, it's just a car fire at an abortion clinic...huh, um, maybe we should all gear up and approach real cautiously in case it's something more than just a car fire at an abortion clinic.

Think. You've never seen this exact situation before...so always think.

[TillerMan25]

3/4 boots are good to have when you are driving. Sometimes I will wear bunker pants when I drive but it's not too often. It is a pain in the keyster trying to drive with bunker pants on. And I would never advocate anyone driving fire apparatus with full turnout gear on. That's plain Stupid.