Ppv!!!!!!

[firefiftyfive]

Can someone explain why PPV is used in attacks. I have heard that some Departments use this tactic to charge a structure before entering and making an attack. To me this sounds way wrong because I don't know anyone around my area that does it, therefore I have never seen it in action. We use PPV but only WELL after the fire is out to clear the structure. I can't find any positives to this tactic except and easy entry. Does anyone use this tactic and can you fill me in on the positives to this tactic?

[Weruj1]

If you have enough people responding to an alarm, you can get your line in and once you get water on the fire and achieve knockdown then you can start the fan to clear the smoke and whlie finishing extingusihment see if it makes any other hot spots light up. I would not start the fan while attack was ongoing and no one else was coming in behind me. When coordinated it works well.

Positives- gets the building ventilated early, makes secondary search better. Also clears the structure to see if there is any more fire, also may keep smoke damage less to the structure.

Cons- not paying attention or un-coordinted planning could burn the place to the ground.

[firenresq77]

As weruj said, you have to have plenty of people, but also those people have to be trained very well in this method. If they don't, you will lose the structure. This tactic works very well for many of those that use it, and they will swear by it, but it won't work for everybody.

[chriswv3]

We try to get the PPV going as soon as possible after the initial knockdown. We have had good luck with this method for all the reasons mentioned above. As stated above though, it is very easy to cause more damage if hot spots flare up and go unnoticed.

[ThNozzleman]

Use of PPV is usually limited to smaller fires, such as room and contents. If ventilation is done properly, the pressure created by the fan helps to remove heat and smoke from the structure, making life much more bearable for the firefighters entering the structure. If a fire is in advanced stages, much more ventilation is required. Most departments accomplish this by taking all the windows (horizontal) once lines are charged, and are ready to advance. Firefighters may also choose to perform vertical ventilation by cutting the roof open over the area of fire in a structure. Conditions, location and size of the fire, and building construction will merit which tactics should be used. The trick to PPV is controlling the ventilation openings. If a structure has to be opened totally, then a PPV fan will not do much more than make a lot of noise. Also, proper placement of a PPV fan is something that I STILL see a lot of fire departments screwing up. Even after proper training, the PPV fan is being set inside the doorway, and not several feet back from it. Not only is this a serious exit hazard, it merely results in the air/smoke/heat circling back out of the doorway, and back into the structure. Just like any other tool on the truck, PPV is great...if used correctly.

[firefighterbeau]

i have a friend who had some training about using ppv during intial attack. i believe he said the instructor was from utah. anyway from what i gathered, is it can only be used in ''room and content'' fires. and supposedly by starting the ventilation first it starts to cool everything down and snuffs the fire so the attack and or search team can find the fire and anyone trapped inside easier. personally i think it would make the fire flare up even more by doing using ppv right away cause your introducing fresh air, but the way it sounds it will somehow control/blow it out?.

[firefighterbeau]

i have a friend who had some training about using ppv during intial attack. i believe he said the instructor was from utah. anyway from what i gathered, is it can only be used in ''room and content'' fires. and supposedly by starting the ventilation first it starts to cool everything down and snuffs the fire so the attack and or search team can find the fire and anyone trapped inside easier. personally i think it would make the fire flare up even more by doing using ppv right away cause your introducing fresh air, but the way it sounds it will somehow control/blow it out?.

[firenresq77]

Originally posted by firefighterbeau
i have a friend who had some training about using ppv during intial attack. i believe he said the instructor was from utah. anyway from what i gathered, is it can only be used in ''room and content'' fires. and supposedly by starting the ventilation first it starts to cool everything down and snuffs the fire so the attack and or search team can find the fire and anyone trapped inside easier. personally i think it would make the fire flare up even more by doing using ppv right away cause your introducing fresh air, but the way it sounds it will somehow control/blow it out?.

No, it doesn't "snuff out" the fire, but it does help push the heat and smoke away for easier entry, but you have to know where the fire is and be ready to attack it, otherwise it will spread. Ventilation is a must!

[mcaldwell]

Wow, I thought this was common knowledge in this day and age. Most of what I am reading here is not the proper use of PPV.

PPV is designed to be used BEFORE your initial entry into the structure. The principle is that by pressurizing the room/building higher than the exterior, the products of combustion will be forced out faster than they can be produced. This results in the fire being almost "Blown" out, and simultaneously cooled below the flashpoint. Once the PPV has begun to work, you now make you interior attack, supposedly with greatly improved visibility.

There are a few points to remember about how to effectively use PPV.

1. The fan must be outside the door and 5-8 feet back for a man door, 8-10 feet back for a garage door. The air "cone" should essentially cover the door, and not recirculate smoke back into the building.

2. The exit point must be smaller than the entry point. i.e. if you are blowing in the front door, you must only break a small-medium window as the exit point. If you are blowing into a garage door, you can blow out a man door. As mentioned earlier, if too much glass is gone, the PPV won't work nearly as well.

3. There should be an open path from the entry point to the exit point. This is not an absolute, but it greatly improves performance, and limits undesired extension.

4. The fire will flare upon initially placing the fan, but after 10-30 seconds (depending on the size of the room/building), it will kick in quite dramatically. Under the most ideal conditions, I have walked down a hall with the smoke being pushed away almost as fast as I could walk.

5. You can use PPV on larger fires if the fire has not self ventilated yet. It works best if you can "compartmentalize" the fire, or fight it one room at a time while keeping the others closed off. this can get a little complex and takes practise.

6. You can install water jets on your PPV that will allow it to cool the interior very rapidly as it works. The one downside to PPV that we find up here in the north is that if used as a simple smoke ejector on small fires it can cool and freeze the interior of the building very quickly (pipes and all)

There are some excellent videos out there that show PPV being used very effectively. If you aren't following the rules, it could be useless, or dangerous. But when it works as designed, it is very impressive to see.

[Rescue101]

Uh,not exactly.You need to be in entry mode BEFORE cranking up the fan.PPV is used in CLOSE co-ordination with attack and vent crews.When used properly with co-ordinated fire attack,the process helps improve visibility and remove heat allowing a deeper and faster attack on the seat of the fire,NEVER BUT NEVER energize the fan until your attack crews are in position and ready to go,if you do you'll burn the building flat.As others have stated, if you have well trained, experienced crews it works very well.If not,perhaps you should practice on a acquired structure.It's not for everyone.I've used the principles several times on our trainings but we're not ready yet to use it on every job. T.C.

[EFD840]

I STILL see a lot of fire departments screwing up. Even after proper training, the PPV fan is being set inside the doorway, and not several feet back from it.

Ever seen one sitting inside the doorway facing OUTWARD? I have. I guess they thought it was a super-duper smoke ejector.

[zeindog]

Yes I have seen fans inside the doorway blowing out, usually that is negative pressure ventilation and most times there is another fan inside the stucture pushing the smoke outside of the sturcture.

[CaptainGonzo]

I would not use PPV in a fire attack.

Do we know the construction of the building?

Do we know if the firestops have been compromised, creating void spaces and pipe chases that will push the fire to other location in the building?

Is everyone out of the building?

Ten years ago, a former Chief of a neighboring Department tried using a PPV in conjuction with aninterior attack. The problem was... the building was a balloon frame Victorian..and yes, they lost it.

[firefiftyfive]

Originally posted by CaptainGonzo
I would not use PPV in a fire attack.

Do we know the construction of the building?

Do we know if the firestops have been compromised, creating void spaces and pipe chases that will push the fire to other location in the building?




Thanks for all the responses guys, really answered my question!. But after reading all of the responses I think I will stick with CaptainGonzo on this one. I'll take crawling down a hot smokey hallway or entry way over possibly burning the whole place down or even worse burning a trapped victim that is somewhere in the home.

[SamsonFCDES]

Originally posted by firefiftyfive


Thanks for all the responses guys, really answered my question!. But after reading all of the responses I think I will stick with CaptainGonzo on this one. I'll take crawling down a hot smokey hallway or entry way over possibly burning the whole place down or even worse burning a trapped victim that is somewhere in the home.

On the other hand pushing the smoke and heat out of a structure may just save that trapped victim.

[BurnCMSFD]

Alot of different perspectives, but im going to have to go with Rescue 101. We have used this several times, but most all on single family dwellings and it works excellent. We don't have any or many ballon construction homes in this area, but I could see where that might be a problem. It sure does increase the fires intensity, but on the positive side of that you can usually see the fire when you approach it, and if there are victims inside the ppv is introducing fresh air and pushing out the smoke, also facilitating in seeing a victim. Ive seen many times guys going in and spraying water at smoke cause you couldn't see the fire, increasing the water damage and any other things we break cause we cant see, these PPV's help mitigate these problems. They cant be used on everything but than either can a 13/4, they are good tool with proper training and recognizing the situation at hand. With all respect to Captain Gonzo To say 'I would not use a PPV on a fire attack' is kinda old school isn't sir (you crusty jake):),we have to learn how to crawl before we learn how to search.
Just my opinion.
Burn

[E229Lt]

Red Flag Quotes

...once you get water on the fire and achieve knockdown then you can start the fan to clear the smoke and whlie finishing extingusihment see if it makes any other hot spots light up...


...We try to get the PPV going as soon as possible after the initial knockdown...

If you're going to use PPV, and I wouldn't, PLEASE, shut it down ASAP after knockdown. The opening of walls and ceilings to check for extension while PPV is operating can have severe ramifications!

[CaptainGonzo]

With all respect to Captain Gonzo To say 'I would not use a PPV on a fire attack' is kinda old school isn't sir (you crusty jake)

"Old school and experience (aka "crust") beats "new school and book knowledge"!

An example for my reasoning...

There is a new home under construction just down the road from me. It's going to be a 4 bedroom, 2.5 bath Colonial with a two car garage under.

The floor joists are made of plywood I beams.
The walls are standard 2x4, 16 inches on center.
The sheathing is OSB.
The subfloors are plywood.
The roof is being supported by lightweght wood trusses.

While it is Class 5 platform construction... how many openings in the flooring and plywood I beams will be created running the wiring and plumbing? How many of these wil be properly sealed afterwards?

Two red flags here are the plywood I beams and the lightweight roof trusses. Plywood I beams will delaminate quickly under fire conditions and a truss is a truss is a truss. Do you really want to use PPV in a fire attack knowing that information?

While throwing a book at a vire will not help to put it out, it's knowledge from books penned by people with crust (Norman, Dunn, Smith, Brannigan, IFSTA, etc.) that help you make the right decision!

[ullrichk]

Originally posted by CaptainGonzo


The floor joists are made of plywood I beams.
The walls are standard 2x4, 16 inches on center.
The sheathing is OSB.
The subfloors are plywood.
The roof is being supported by lightweght wood trusses.



PPV or not, I'm not sure how long I'd want to commit to interior ops in such a building. We've got 'em here, too.

I personally would not rule out a well-coordinated attack using PPV. They key is to know the buildings in your jurisdiction and err on the side of caution where lightweight or baloon construction is likely.

[WTFD10]

I was part of a crew that used PPV attack at a training burn in an aquired structure. It worked very well and we were chasing the smoke down the hallway right to the seat of the fire.

Since this was a training burn, we knew exactly which room the fire was in which made our attack alot quicker, and the window for the vent "exhaust" was also in the same room which prevented the fire from extending to other areas.

It was good to see how something we had read about worked but I'm not sure if I would want to try the technique on a real fire with the many variables that aren't present at a training burn.

[firefiftyfive]

The problem with PPV does not seem to lie within the attack. It is afterwards where the problem seems to be. Once you have the fire knocked down is where your problems can start. Once you start overhaul and begin really getting those walls and ceilings open you are very likely to push that fire all over the place. And no matter what type of construction the building is there are going to be voids for fire to run through. So it seems like the "old school" is the best way to go.

And by the way can we really consider going in without PPV "old school" considering going in without PPV seems to be the most common (and effective)way of attacking a fire????

[mcaldwell]

I think a few people are making mountains out of a molehills regarding some of the apparent cons of PPV.

First of all, when applied correctly, PPV clears the gases and smoke out so quickly that it does not have time to gain a foothold in other areas. A small amount of fire pushed into a void for less than 5 or ten seconds will not usually continue to free-burn. It does not have enough time to superheat the area, and thus create the "Self-Sustaining" part of the reaction. If you have had a chance to practice with it to the point of proficiency, you would see how fast it really can work.

Also, the excessive time required to do a slow crawling search can often allow more damage to these types of vulnerable construction than the time required to get up there and overhaul after your PPV has cleared it out. Remember, part of the theory of PPV is rapidly cooling the gases and structure to below the flashpoint. I can attest from experience, it works very fast.

The benefit to the victims is clear. You are providing them fresh air very quickly, and spotting them much quicker as well.

With respect to Gonzo, I don't think it is a book vs practice question. You cannot read a book and then go and perform effective PPV. Like traditional means of interior attack, it takes many practice fires to become proficient with the technique, and many dept's lose structures because the don't have that level of comfort and proficiency with the system. However, if you are willing to step out of your comfort zone and practice with it, once you get it down, it does save buildings, manhours, and lives.

[SFDE37]

For more info on PPV see www.firetactics.com. This is a British site that goes over several years of research into PPV. It explains in what circumstances PPV is effective and when it isn't.
Additionally the US Navy has used PPV for years for shipboard fires (different that structural FF) within the skin of the ship. Naval Ship's Technical Manual 555 (Shipboard Firefighting) has different techniques for a shipboard environment.
PPV is an effective tactic when used properly and in the right circumstances. It can also be harmful when improperly used. It is another tool we have to be used when needed.

[Ack8236]

I agree with Mcaldwell, PPV is very useful during attack. We have almost all balloon construction and we use PPV on nearly every fire. We coordinate the ventilation crews and attack crews because things happen quick, especially in a balloon. It makes conditions more tolerable and makes it easier to identify where the seat is so you can get to doing what you need to do. JMO

[Weruj1]

more info over here...........how did I let this sneak by ?
http://cms.firehouse.com/forums2/showthread.php?threadid=55517&goto=newpost

[CrossBro1]

We do not use PPV during an initial fire attack. However, the idea behide PPV during the initial fire attack is to improve conditions for the interior teams and any potential victims inside. Using PPV MUST be coordinated with the attack and outside vent teams. Using PPV before you are ready to attack will allow the fire to rapidly intensify.

[Dalmatian90]

Ask yourself this basic, two-part question:

What am I pressurizing?
and
Why am I pressurizing it?

Let's step back a moment to attack fog tactics. There is a difference between attack (direct) and indirect fog tactics -- attack tactics require you have a good vent.

Indirect isn't, like some writers have written, done from the outside -- it means you steam an area and allow the fire to stew in it's own steam. Typically it's a tactic used for compartments you can't vent well if at all, like a ship or a room in a cellar. In a cellar scenario, you take control of the door, hit the ceiling for 5, 10, 15 seconds until steam starts to settle down, and you close the door again. Wait a minute or two and open the door and see if there's still fire and repeat if necessary. Within a 2 or 3 cycles that fire should be knocked down to smouldering.

An fog attack takes advantage of the rapid conversion of water + heat to steam to suck heat out of the fire, displace oxygen, physically disrupt the fire process (like blowing on a candle), and push that mix of heat, steam, smoke, unburned & often burning gases out a vent hole.

PPV expands on that fog attack tactic by pressurizing behind the nozzle -- the fog nozzle is already going to push a lot, the PPV allows that push to be faster, and when you have a good vent it'll push ahead of the nozzle crew allowing them advance even faster.

Now, you have to think about what you're doing.

Over the years many a building has been burned down with fog streams with crews that piddled around pushing a fire anywhere but out a vent hole...because they never made one.

Using a PPV fan where you present the fire any other path other than out a vent hole next to the fire is going to push the fire.

I'm also not one from a fairly large amount of experience who believes the teaching that you must control the amount/size of vent holes. I don't care if you have a sliding glass door and six windows knocked out in the fire room -- the PPV will still pressurize behind it and encourage the fire out the vents. Even horizontal vents remote from the fire, while they may reduce the efficiency, still won't eliminate the positive pressure effect entirely. If anything, heavy horizontal ventilation w/PPV fans is a fair compromise -- it clears out the building really fast but reduces the intensity of the PPV to "drive" a fire in void spaces because the pressure isn't such an extreme differential.

Once your "Operations" officer has a good idea of where the fire is he can answer the questions of What & Why he's pressurizing, and if he has good answers to those two questions he can order the PPV fan turned in towards the building. "Ok, I have three rooms involved in the rear corner, all three are vented, I want to pressurize behind the attack team to improve their visibility, reduce the heat for them, and help push this fire out those vented windows" is a good answer. If he doesn't have a handle on where the fire is, if he doesn't have a specific reason why he wants to use the fan, it's best left blowing into the yard next door.

[slackjawedyokel]

Like the others have said, when done right, it makes
life easy--- done wrong, its a problem.
Biggest things are knowing where the seat of the fire
is. Making an exit vent in the wrong place sure causes
problems. Also as has been said before -- the exit vent
needs to be about half the size of the "entry" hole.
A sometimes overlooked benefit of ppv done right, is
by creating true positive pressure inside the house, it
will slow down horozintal extension.
What seems to work best for us, take good timing and
communaction. With the entry team in place , set up the fan
so its stream is covering all the door-- open the "exit"
vent and wait untill the smoke (and or flames)is being
blown out (for lack of a better term) "steady"
Then open the front door, wait a couple of seconds and watch
for "churning" then hook it up towards the seat.
This take an officer at each opening.
One problem we encountered was zero clearance houses. When
first cranked up, fire sometimes blows pretty far out of
the window, not a problem as long as the interior crew
hooks it up, but the bystanders sure get to hollering.

[GregLAFDRET]

Please everyone be patient with me, first reply for me.

PPV when applied correctly is an extremly beneficial life and property saving tool. It must be done with coordination. Always fall back on our ABC's regardless of fire or EMS.

When fighting a fire in a structure, we (meaning the fire service in the whole) want to attack it from the uninvolved to the involved. Makes sense. Why would we want to further spread the fire into the undamaged, unburnt areas? Although it may seem faster to run to the involved area and immediatly apply agent, it is worth the extra time to do an interior attack from the uninvolved to involved.

Just as the attack lines are set up for this type of attack, the same for the blowers. We want to keep the uninvolved from the fire area. As the entry is being made to gain access, with the truck company assiting the engine company, it will get crowded, lets say, we are setting up on the front porch area. With previous training, practice and knowledge on the capabilities of the blowers performance, the PPV team can be setting up behind the entry crew.

Depending on the location of the fire, this is where our exhaust hole will be, until after if needed, roof ops are done. It must be stressed, that the exhaust holes have to be aprox 2/3 the size of the entrance. Basically figure, setting up on the front door with the blowers, means opening up the upper portions of any windows in the involved area.

We don't want to open all windows. We want to direct the PPV currents to the involved and push it out, the hot gases, the fire, etc., clear the way for the entry team, buy time for any trapped occupants, reduce smoke and heat damage.

It must be stressed to have a 'cone or seal' for the front door. Meaning, the blower(s) is set up to fully encapsulate the frame, hole, opening of the entrance. You can do this in practice, by use of small ribbon strips, the hands, etc., to feel that PPV air is actually blowind not only into the structure but also the outside of the same opening. Once this is done, we have PPV the interior. Within minutes, you will see a change in atmosphere, temp drops, smoke clears, etc.

It is not as complicated as it might sound. PPV must be used very carefully, depending on the building, etc. If attack lines are not fully set up and proper exhaust holes are not directly over the involved fire area, the risk of extending the fire, smoke, gases and heat into other uninvolved areas is a great possibility. However, a consideration should be taken for life hazard inside the structure, where PPV would benefit anyone trapped inside, to give them some fresh air as the entry team gets ready.

PPV is such a useful tool when done properly with a minimal amount of practice offsetting the benefits, is one technique that should be drilled on.

It should be stressed, especially so, if your department is running in with mutual aid units. 1. They should be invited, included in your PPV training. 2nd, someone from your fire department should be the outside eyes and ears to prevent anyone from jumping the gun and wanting to put the wet stuff on the red stuff through a window causing severe steam burns or 'lobsters' as we would refer. This person can also be part of the coordination team by radio to relay the exhaust ports are done. Besides them pushing the fire into the uninvolved, etc., etc. Only time acceptable would be fully involved and an interior attack may not be possible or certain other situations dictate dependent on other factors.

In training, if access to some type of training smoke can be acquired, or, if not, strips cut from different sources can be used to monitor air flow, such as emergency 'do not enter tape, gift wrapping ribbon, etc., etc.,.' Try not to make them too thick, at least 6 to 10 inches long. Tape such peices on the entrance door, all around the perimeter, if a front door is used, tape these all along the door frames. If a window is used, the same thing.

If some type of smoke agent is not handy, use the same strips inside the training structure. Tape such peices through out the interior. Always remember, the exhaust hole must be apporximately 2/3 the size of the intake's opening where the blowers are placed. With this in mind, as another writer also pointed out, it must be remembered to maximize the volume of the blowers capacity. If the operation is to clear smoke out of the structure, lets say, from 'food on the stove' or 'fireplace damper closed', etc, we get the idea... Go from room to room, windows 2/3 opening rule for the entrance. Open one door at a time, make sure to remove any screens if possible, greatly speeds the operation up. Once that room is clear, shut the door, either mark it as cleared or someone remember it, go to the next smokie room and repeat the same proceedure. By the way, if smoke is not available, take those riibbon strips and tape them throughout the structure, preferably on all door entrances so it is visible and the exhaust holes.

Depending on the capability of Cubic Feet per Minute the blowers can move, with this type of practice and actual smoky conditions, will show you your capabilities.

The most important aspect, is to make a proper 'cone' to 'seal the entrance' and than the rule of thumb, exit holes 2/3's size of entrance, any obstructions removed, screens, curtains, etc.,

Once you have the cone/seal down making PPV, you can than experiment with placing other blowers in front or back of the original blower creating the seal. This can speed up the air movement inside.

Although on my department we never tried it while I was there, I have read about 'water misting' units placed in the intake of the blowers to introduce cool, moist air inside the structure. I am sure there are pro's and con's on this.

Regardless, good ol PPV can be used on just about ANY type of structure. We used them successuflly on single family residence's to commercial stuctures. And when you are inside on the nozzle, just like when the truck company opens the roof up, you definetly can feel and appreciate the air flow.

I hope this helps. I have been retired for a bit from injuries. I was blessed and lucky enough to know the Captain who developed this system, to go from the old smoke ejectors to turning them around and make them PPV's!!

Having come from the department that put PPV on the map and having had extremely long hours on practice and application I would like to pass my experience and observation on to others. I, am in no way trying to fluff my or my departments feathers. Having come from the USAF fire department before hiring on with Los Angeles City Fire Department, I view things in different light. I am retired due to injuries, I am also a Calif state certified Fire Instructor 1a/1b. Hopefully by adding my 2 n1/2 cents worth
may help others.

Please feel free to email me if need be.

[wyesguy24]

This certainly gets you thinking. As has been said attack from the unburned to the burned side. Could someone expand on the vent hole theory? I thought roof ops were a thing of the past. Who in their right mind would be up on a lightweight wood truss roof cutting holes in it?

[GregLAFDRET]

Will try to be helpful in regards to 'roof ventilation hole'.

While we would normally ladder and ventilate most all structures, the reason being is many. However, dependent on the roof construction, the roofs condition, and / or other hazards, do come into consideration.

Let's say we are upon an older home, such as in several areas, LA is one of them. With a Task Force operation in place, it is a well choregraphed operation. With that in place, we go to roof ops.

By opening a roof up, we now have opened a hole so that the super heated gases and smoke have a way out. By doing so, we allow our inside attack team a better environment. They can find the fire faster, less heat and smoke to contend with, makes it safer overall. Gives the fire a little more direction to go to. If there is anyone trapped inside, the opening of the roof along with the outside ventilation, either by doors being opened, windows being broken, etc., we now have some cooler, fresher air to come in, giving such victims a better chance.

The vent hole will normally be cut as close to or over the fire. Again, depending on the roof's construction, roofs condition.

In regards to ventilating a light weight wood truss roof, it can be done, we do do it, but TIME is a MAJOR FACTOR. By adhering to our SOP's for roof ops, we normally would cut a vent hole safely and then get off the roof.

It is beyond the scope of this reply to fully go into the full aspects of roof ops, etc.

However, the LAFD has some really good training materials, training bulletins on such proceedures. Before my last injuries caused a premature retirement, I do recall honoring requests from other departments for such bulletins. Things might have changed, I can not and am not speaking in any official manor for the LAFD. Just want to help my bretheren firemen.

You might get some contact information either by the LAFD's website or phone calls.

Please feel free to contact me and ask anything you have questions on/and or, a general reply for others to add their experiences.

[wyesguy24]

Thank you for your reply. My thought is if you are opening the roof then you know where the fire is (such as a second story bedroom) could you not have an attack team in place, start PPV thereby pressurizing the building and have someone on a ladder or with a long pike pole take a window? Second if you are opening the roof for an attic fire it would seem to me the last place you would want to be is the roof.

[GregLAFDRET]

You are welcome for my reply. Will try to answer your other questions, would have done so much earlier, had problems logging on.

In answer to your question, yes, indeed that could be done, again, many parameters at stake? What is the SOP's for the responding FD? Do they have SOP's?

I know with my department if there was fire involved, we were going to the roof. That was SOP. The only time we would not go to the roof to cut would be; when a single family residence self ventilated (fire thru the roof),or in the 'projects or assisted public housing' apartments as the roofs were made out of light weight concrete construction and the walls were of concrete block, sometype of cross ventilation would be used, blowers PPV defenitly, and no steel buildings.

Also by ventilating the roof, as heat and smoke does rise, we can be more assured that the super heated gases will be ventilated out.

Your question regarding an attic fire, again, more variables. What type of structure is it? Single family, multi family, apartments, commercial? And also, construction style and condition?

Again, we want to go from the uninvolved toward the involved, with structural integraty one of our major concerns. By cutting a vent hole we now have a place for the smoke, heat and steam to go once water is put on the fire.

A word of caution if I may? Sometimes what 'appears' to be a 'roof' fire is not a roof fire at all, but extension from an attic fire. Hence, another reason for making a vent hole, is used as an inspection hole. It should be quite apparent, whether or not there is involvement in the attic. I have personally witnessed where another fire department did not interpret the 'roof fire' to be extending from the 'attic'.

With tactful diplomacy, we clued them into their oversight. It can happen to anyone.

However, to fight a running attic fire, we have cut a 'trench' cut, basically, through experience, we figure which peice of roof real estate we can save. If it is only 10 to 20 feet that is left of the roof, than the safety hazard would not be worth the risk.

Unfortuenetly, I have seen some gung ho guys do just that. They are lucky to be alive today.

However, an attic fire where we make a trench cut, is a big operation. It normally goes all the way across from one end to another or from a fire stop to fire stop.

When up on a roof, we are looking for sagging roof lines, 'growing' vent pipes as we woule call them, we sound the roof with our tools, either the rubbish hook or use the handle of a pike pole, meaning we are literally swinging down in front of where we are going to travel, with the tools, this way, if it sounds strong and intact, we will walk, that way. Again, along the perimeter, 'no cross country'.

It is normally faster and part of our operation to vent the roof. Depending on the rest of the incident, manpower, etc., PPV could be brought in at any stage.

I had hoped I covered the use of PPV fairly well in my other reply's. It works great. Practice, practice, practice...

Roof ops is a whole other area. As you might see, some times they both can be used at the same time or one or the other is used.

Again, please feel free to ask any questions I may be able to help you with.

One note of caution that stuck in my mind very early in my fire fighting career. I was in the Air Force FD at the time and was reading one of the 'Fire Mags'. Not sure which one. However, in another fire department, some officer thought he was going to help get ventilation going by busting out all the windows of a warehouse BEFORE ANY FIRE APPARTUS was even on scene. Long story short, he was sued for the resultant conflaguration that engulfed the warehouse soon afterwards.

He probably felt like the dept was pushing him front and center at the end of the pike pole in front of the court system! That was over 20 plus years ago I read that. Certain things stick in one's memory.

Stay safe.

[Rescue101]

Who in their RIGHT mind would be entering a burning structure?A lot of decisions need to be based on YOUR response area,building types,preplans,occupancy,etc.G reg has provided a vision of possibilities if you have proper training and staffing.T.C.

[GregLAFDRET]

YIKES!!!!!! Did I read this wrong? Are you pulling a fire service joke trick on me?

With no disrespect sir, I am not sure I follow your train of thought. Yes, if an understaffed, inexperienced fire dept has these SOP's, than I might be able to understand it better, but please tell me they are either seeking training or another job!

I can not fathom the thought, arriving on scene, with a hysterical, screaming mother, with skin dripping off her extremities, squealing that her baby(s) are trapped inside after she unsuccessfully tried to get them out. Only to be told, sorry lady, we don't do that, to dangerous...

I read your profile. Similar to mine. It just shook me, when bystanders, our boys n blue and others will go into a burning structure, no training, no equipment, trying to save a trapped occupant.

What happened to our motto? 'When everyone else is running out of a burning building, we are running in (normally with a smile and confidence to boot).

We use to run in with another fire department on mutual aid runs, where they would squirt from the outside in and we would mount an interior attack. They 'steamed' us so badly, time n again, that we actually would have one of our guys monitering them and quite sternly tell them, DO NOT OPEN YOUR LINES UP, OUR GUYS ARE IN THERE. I have been steamed, as have my fellow buds, it is no fun being a cooked live lobster. And this is with all of our protective gear, turn outs, hoods, helmets, gloves, bottles and masks. Now with that in mind,just think of those poor unprotected victims inside being steamed? I have had the unfortuente oppurtunity to witness similar scenarios.

By order of my engine captain to knock down the fully involved single family residence with our wagon battery, before I was going in to attack it with a 1 3/4" interior line, the sleeping occupant in the early morning blaze, literally threw herself out of a plate glass window that was in her bedroom. Flowing aprox 1500 gpm out of the smooth bore wagon battery tip on the engine's tank did not last long. There was still plenty of fire inside.

Yes, granted, we have had firemen go in to deep, take unneccessary risks and many have been lost. But to adopt a no go ever inside policy, to me, just does not make sense.

Maybe I read your reply wrong. Maybe it was inserted wrong. Maybe more clarification is/was needed.

I always try to be very open and respectful of all departments, members and people.

Please let me know I read you wrong?

[Rescue101]

Greg,Yep, big guy you read too much in and didn't read enough back posts.So don't spill your morning coffee just yet.Go back to page two of this post:last or next to last post where wyseguy questions the sanity of entering a lightweight building.My point (counterpoint)is that normal people LEAVE a burning building. Since we don't that would make us a bit touched would it not?And some of us,speaking only for myself,are a bit more touched than others.I didn't get to my current rank and stature by having my head in dark places,in fact I've had the pleasure of taking lunch with one of yours, a somewhat obscure Truckie going by the name of Chief John Mittendorf.Know him?Taught me a few tricks that still stick.My saterical point is that no facet of the business we're in is "safe";every day has managed risks.I think Chief Brunnicini has a pretty good grip on reality when he stated"Some buildings were designed to burn,the rest have sprinklers".A novel concept.We, as a group, need to come to the understanding that certain buildings,by both design and factors beyond our control,will burn.And OCCASIONALLY the best action we can take is keep our personnel OUT of them when the RISK is EXTREME and the gains are non existant.To put it bluntly stop sacrificing trained firefighters for a delapidated building with no life hazard.Being from a country setting,I have more latitude in this than in a city setting where one miscalculation can cost you a block or more.And I have NO PROBLEM with a good interior attack,unless it puts my personnel at GREAT risk.I too,have endured the results of bad planning/ops in the bake/broil/steamed scenerios.From these we issue spankings,training,and lessons learned to lessen the frequency of occurance.And none of this is related to the subject at hand,PPV,but we're still killing over 100 FF's a year.This is a subject that disturbs me greatly,so occasionally I'll stir the pot to get a countering view or opinion.If you look at that last post,I think it will make the response easier to follow.And keep the thoughts on PPV coming,I find them very educational as we are just beginning to use this wonderful tool. T.C.

[glowpop]

Many here have provided some very good information on PPV in attack mode. Just some added thoughts...

1. Always remember your ventilation basics. Even using natural ventilation, either vertical or horizontal, you need two holes. One for the bad air to leave and one for the good air to enter. Vent high then low, downwind to upwind, push the fire from the burned to unburned side. The only difference with PPV is that the fresh air hole is pressurized by the blower. The bad air hole should be 2/3 the size of the fresh air hole when using PPV.

2. When using PPV, the bad air vent hole will significantly "blow" fire once the hole is made. This is true whether the hole is a vertical one or a horizontal one. Again remember your basics! You must protect your exposures. Confine the fire prior to extinguishing the fire. If your in an older more urban setting, that may mean getting hoselines to your bad air vent hole and protect the nearby exposures prior to making this hole and the PPV fan is turned into the fresh air vent hole.

3. Start the PPV fan facing in a direction away from your fresh air vent hole. Have your attack lines in place, pressurized and manned, bleed the hoselines, make your bad air vent hole and then turn the fan into the fresh air hole. Advance your attack hoselines.

4. As mentioned in the other thread, PPV can be used in exposure properties, to help confine the fire to the fire building. This can be done very effectively in strip malls and rowhouse or townhouse occupancies.

5. PPV can be very effective and easy to use in high rise fires. Use one fan at the bottom of the stairwells at such fires. Pressurizing the stairwells will push the smoke out of the stairwells making your attack on the fire easier and safer, as well as making the stairwells safe for the occupants to use even in the stairwells that you initiate your attack from. The construction (fire resistive) of these types of buildings makes this type of ventilation very effective and can save many lives, firefighters as well as civilian.

6. Maintain your attack until the fire has been completely extinguished. If a fire has gotten into the voids of a building, the resultant fire after the contents have been extinguished can break out of those voids and trap/injure firefighters very quickly if PPV is used. Maintain your attack and overhaul until the fire has been completely extinguished, or discontinue the use of the PPV fan until additional resources can be brought to bear on the confined/unoverhauled fire.

7. PRACTICE, PRACTICE, PRACTICE. Using either an aquired structure or a designed burn building can be very effective in aquiring this tactic to be put into your tactical tool bag. Always remember your basics, and you should be able to use PPV effectively at your next incident; either in the attack mode or just in the overhaul phase.

8. Coordination is vital. The attack line and the bad vent opening need to be made in unison with each other.

Hope this helps.

[GregLAFDRET]

Rescue 101:
Hey T.C.,
Whew!!! Breath of fresh air. Would you do me a fire service professional courtesy next time you write something like that and put 'joking' or something similar, somewhere in the writing? :) Certainly would appreciate it.

You and I agree on just about everything you said in your last reply.I found your reply very refreshing and factual. I too, think we sacrifice way too many good people, where as, there was nothing to save except a future parking lot, house foundation, etc. I feel,we should not lose anyone. That is a big blanket coated statement, but for the most part, interior wise, etc., etc. I feel this way. Responding to incidents take there toll. As do other flukes. I myself have cheated the grim reaper a few times, both on and off duty. I am sure you have had some interesting experiences.

Yes, I have had the pleasure of meeting Chief John Mittendorf throughout my time on the LAFD. If you ever get the chance to visit with retired Chief Wilahan, he was the captain at the time that I cut my teeth on ventilation, PPV, etc. I had the distinct pleasure of working with him on shift, opposite shift.

If you get a chance, one way or another, I would like to know more of your department, calls, area, equipment. Does not have to be in detail.

I was out of Calif state for 5 years in the USAF FD. At that time, our fire training facility was in Illinois. I was there in the dead of winter, had frostbite, chipped off the ice from the hoses and equipment. Then went to MS, another eye opener and than 3 years in Germany. No, I did not miss chipping ice, heating/thawing equipment from a fire scene to go back to the ranch. My hat is off to all the fire departments that do indeed work in such conditions.

Good luck on your departments pursuit on PPV and it's usage.

Stay low and try to save your back at all costs.
Greg

TO: GLOWPLUG,
Good recap with additional information on using natural wind currents, HOWEVER, I think you unintentionally got one item turned around.

We want to vent and fight fire from the uninvolved to the involved or unburnt to the burnt. For interior structure fire ops, vent ops., etc.

Now, if we are fighting wildland, etc, than we like to use burnt to unburnt for our own safety.

Other than that, excellent.
Greg

[glowpop]

Greg,
Absolutely, I messed up with the fingers.

It's easier to do than to write sometimes. The brain goes so much faster than these fat fingers can type, and I must have proofed that at least two time and didn't see it.

Yeah, it was before my second cup of joe:D