Gas Prices

[backdraft663]

At what price of gas will you either reduce or totally stop driving?

[ChiefReason]

Don't even get me started.
A sheik farts and gas prices go up another 20 cents.
Can't wait to hear about the record profits of the oil companies.
Oh yeah; and the oil shortage.
CR
:mad:

[martinm]

Speaking as someone who although does'nt drive all that often, (I cycle to work and live next to my station), probably pays a lot more for petrol that most folks on here (the other Brits excepted). I would have to say that not many people will reduce their use, or cut out altogether, driving vehicles.

I live in country with a population of about 58 million people. At the last count, there were DOUBLE that many cars on the UK's roads. How many does that make running on U.S. roads?

People driving cars is the ONLY way that petroleum companies make money and they know that there will always be a market for their product. There will always be people willing to pay whatever it takes to drive their car, as opposed to walking somewhere. There will always be cars, and there will always be people who want to drive them.

A few years ago, road hauliers, (truckers), began to blockade fuel distribution depots in the UK, to try and prevent supplies being delivered to garages. It lasted about two weeks. Although they were protesting about the high cost of fuel, they really only got peoples backs up as they had to drive around to find a garage with stocks of fuel, rather than have people join their protest and force the government to reduce the taxation on fuel.

When stocks of oil get lower, I'll still be riding my bike. (I can use synthetic products to lub the chain!!):D

[BFDLT32]

Mass transit is not available between my house and station. It means that I must drive if I want a paycheck. When not at work I still leave the house for recreational trips. Yea I drive one of those gas hog SUV's, but still must drive it if I do not want to become a homebody.:D

[Weruj1]

I gotat tell ya I am seriously looking at mass transit ...not sure when the busses run after midnight .....but it has got to be cheaper than gas ............

[spearsm]

The only public transportation here is when you stick your thumb out!:(

If insurance on motorcycles wasn't so dadblamed high, I would be two wheeling!

[ffexpCP]

If it gets too high, I've got my old moped in the back of my garage.

No insurance needed.
$15 registration (good for 3 years)
Aprox. 80 MPG
And I can do all the work on it.
Besides, I still enjoy riding it.

Slightly over 1 mile to work and ½ mile to the station.

Sure is cheaper than my car, but tends to make it hard to haul my tools to work and back.

I filled up in the Detroit area on Saturday for $2.18. Today in the UP it’s $2.43.

[tyler101]

$2.34 Here in Ohio!:(

[Tom Carmody]

Here in RI the prices vary from station to station. Hess seems to be the cheapest at $2.12. Others go up into the $2.20's. I have no choice but to pay the high prices. Our choice of cars isn't the best for these times but you only live once. My wife drives an SUV and I have a Mustang GT.
I heard on the radio yesterday that the US exports millions of barrells of oil every year and very little stays here. The reason was that our oil is so expensive that it is cheaper for us to import it from outside. Makes no sense to me.

[AsstEngineer292]

$2.03 for Regular In South Jersey,Burlington County Woodland Township.

BUT My company doesn't have to pay for fuel for the engines,chiefs trucks. We cover the New Lisbon Developmental Center and they said since we cover them for emergencies, they purchased 2 tanks for the firehouse(1 gasoline and 1 diesel) that are stationed in the center of the complex for our engines and chiefs trucks to fill up at at no charge since we protect them 24/7/365. We got very lucky on this or else we'd be paying alot for Diesel which is $2.38 Here

[TCFire]

Paid $2.27 last night. Unfortunately I have few options...300 miles a week back and forth to work. With my job, get to work around 0715, might leave at 1630, or might leave at 1800, might have to go to another office during the day, never know. Buses are just not practical for me. Just glad I bought a small car a few years ago instead of the truck that I wanted!

[DaSharkie]

Fortunately I live 3 miles from school. Since it was warmed up enough in the mornings, as long as weather is good I shall pedal my happy little butt to school on my bike. Like martinm says, I can do almost all of the maintenance myself, and it actually about 5 or 10 minutes quicker because I don't have to hunt for a parking space, I get to go right in front of the building. Plus I get a workout to help reduce the middle spread that has occurred since school started. :D

This will totally pay off next year since almost all of my clinical rotations are local, I shouldn't have any problems.

Our gas here in Durham is over $2.20 a gallon, but when I fill up I go to Sam's Club and pay about 8-10 cents less. Though I miss my GMC Sierra, with the gas prices as rediculous as they are now, I am glad I traded it in for my Subie Outback that gets more than twice what the truck did.

[sbfdco1]

At almost f'ing $2.60/gal I'm looking into getting one of these bad boys:

[sbfdco1]

This is part of an e-mail that was forwarded to me on Monday. It's part of one of those mail to 10 people...blah, blah,blah. Boycott the Saudis who are boycotting us...

The numbers are interesting.


> Thought it might be interesting for you to know which oil companies are
> the best to buy gas from and which major companies import Middle Eastern
> oil:
>
>
> Shell......................... .... 205,742,000 barrels
> Chevron/Texaco......... 144,332,000 barrels
> Exxon/Mobil............... 130,082,000 barrels
> Marathon/Speedway... 117,740,000 barrels
> Amoco......................... ...62,231,000 barrels
>
> If you do the math at $30/barrel, these imports amount to over $18
> BILLION!
>
>
> Here are some large companies that do not import Middle Eastern oil:
>
>
> Citgo.......................0 barrels
> Sunoco...................0 barrels
> Conoco...................0 barrels
> Sinclair....................0 barrels
> BP/Phillips.! .............0 barrels
> Hess........................0 barrels
> ARC0.0 barrels
>
> All of this information is available from the Department of Energy and
> each is required to state where they get their oil and how much they are
> importing.

[Weruj1]

it is truly a sad day :( had to stop for gas on the way home as the idiot light came on, paid the $2.34/gal put in 20 bucks and didnt even make it half a tank.............just looked at the local bus route, and I can get to work with no problem but no busses run in my area after about 7 pm so that aint gonna jive when I get of @ 0'hundred. DANG ............:mad:

[tanker5117]

[QUOTE] > Citgo.......................0 barrels
> Sunoco...................0 barrels
> Conoco...................0 barrels
> Sinclair....................0 barrels
> BP/Phillips.! .............0 barrels
> Hess........................0 barrels
> ARC0.0 barrels
[QUOTE]

As far as I know, we don't have alot of these station here in north NJ. Are their prices cheaper then the ones that import?



Tanker

[Dalmatian90]

I travel 35+ miles, each way, to work.

Figure I go through about $1600 a year just in gas for work.

Figure I'd add about $600 to $1000 monthly in my mortgage payment and property taxes to buy a house closer to Worcester.

Nope, gas is still much cheaper than real estate.

[sbfdco1]

Tanker, I know for a fact that Hess is one of the cheaper gas stations here on LI. Specifically by the Long Island Expressway.

[fireguy919]

more than likely 8 months from now we will be at this gain when it goes 3.00 a gallon. i remember paying .73 cents a gallon

[Bones42]

As I look out the window at the Gulf station, regular is $2.04 per gallon, with someone else pumping it. :)

[Dalmatian90]

Are their prices cheaper then the ones that import?

Nope.

It's a free market folks, doesn't matter where you get it.

U.S.
2004:
Total Net Imports: 11.851 Million Barrels per day
From OPEC/Persian Gulf: 2.485 MBD 21% of imports
From OPEC/Africa (mostly Nigeria): 1.578 MBD 13% of imports
From OPEC/Venezuela: 1.521 MBD 13% of imports
From Canada: 2.118 MBD 18% of imports
From Mexico: 1.642 MDB 14% of imports
And miscellaneous countries kick in another 20%.

Now, the largest single supplier of oil to the U.S. is...the U.S. We produce about 40% of our oil domestically.

So the Persian Gulf account for 20% of 60%, or about 12% of our overall consumption.

[ffexpCP]

I’m no chemist but…

What about the stations that sell gasoline\alcohol mix? Is that cheaper for them to produce than 100% gasoline? If so, why are they selling it for the same prices as pure gasoline?

[Dalmatian90]

Hmmm...

15.5 gallon Keg of Bud...$60...$3.80/gallon...criminies, even Bud is more expensive than Gasoline ;)

===========
On a more serious note, this hits two of my other interests -- which are farms and roads.

Alcohol still costs $$$ to make.
-- Petroleum for the fertilizers & machinery to prepare, grow, and harvest
-- Fuel to run the distallation plant

Off of the top of my head, it takes 1 BTU equivelant of oil to make 3 BTU equivelant of alcohol. So you've already spent 1/3rd just to make it buying...oil. Now add in land, manpower, machinery...

(I use BTUs since 1 gallon of Gasoline != 1 gallon of Alcohol in the amount of work it can do)
(And for the geeks here will appreciate this...I've been programming too much today...for the rest, != mean doesn't equal)

Biodiesel, using oils in plants as a substitute for Diesel fuel is a little more efficient. Still not great, and it would take growing a high-oil plant like Canola on every acre of reasonably arable land in the U.S. to meet our demands for Diesel fuel alone -- not counting Gasoline!

I still support Biodiesel since, like drilling in ANWR, it's PART of a solution. We can grow fuel crops for Alcohol & Bio-diesel more efficiently (fuel wise) too -- although it might mean less efficient land & manpower use.

Most stuff with petroleum prices is "marginal" in that a small increase in demand/reduction in supply at the limits like we are now (limitted refining capacity being the big one) creates big price swings.

Bring on more refining capacity to fix that bottle neck, and bring on new sources of fuel -- drilling in Alaska, developing better technologies for the Atlantic seaboard of the U.S., bringing on enough fuel-crops to supplmant, say, 20% of our diesel needs. And start pushing up our fleet efficency -- i.e. more efficient cars, even a 5mpg increase would be dramatic.

Together that could make a big impact in the pricing -- suddenly we're not all competeting to buy that last 1 gallon of oil before the other guy does.

================
And yes, I am kind of smiling I traded the F-150 in a couple years ago and bought a compact (Ranger) again!

Doesn't mean I don't drool when I see a nice Diesel F-350 but couldn't afford both the truck and the gas bill...so I at least get to be glad I only have to fuel my Ranger :)

[MalahatTwo7]

Rumour has it that gas just climbed to $1.02 per litre.

1.000 US gallon equivalent to: 3.78540 litre [l] or roughly $3.90/US gal.

Which equals: 3.895 CAD = 3.18816 USD

[ThNozzleman]

http://www.gregpalast.com/video/palastmarch%2705.mp4

[Dalmatian90]

Well, I only watched about the first few minutes of the video, Noz...have better things to do with my time like reading non-partisan information about energy sources & policies.

If we wanted to control Iraqi oil, we could have done that at any time we wanted to with the dollar. Would've been a much, much cheaper way to control that resource -- we could've outspent anyone in the world to buy it had we the desire to deal with Saddam Hussein further.

There where political & strategic reasons for getting Saddam out of there, getting direct control of Iraqi oil that primarily is burned in Europe & Aisa wasn't one of them.

===========

By the way, I was reading this last night and again in the throne room this morning...not quite done yet, but a well detailed & well written history of Alcohol as an alternate and/or additive to Petroleum. Found it yesterday when looking up a stat for an earlier post here.

http://www.radford.edu/~wkovarik/papers/fuel.html#early

Couple things I gleaned from it (including my interpretation):
-- Alcohol is slightly less powerful per gallon in a typical gasoline engine, but when you build an engine to burn it, it equals or excedes gasoline engine efficiency. Like Diesel, Alcohol can handle higher compression. Higher compression, more power per stroke, better mileage.
-- Don't need grain to make it, albeit grain yields the most, "waste" crops like straw or wood can also be distilled. That opens up a lot more capacity in the U.S. and Canada then I would've thought. I haven't done the math or searched for it, but my gut says with that cellulose-to-ethylalcohol process we could provide a replacement for 20-40% of our current gasoline usage with being overly harsh on the environment from crops & woodlands in North America.
-- Big reason the oil company's don't like Alcohol blends is they displace a lot of gas -- 10% Alcohol is 10% less petroleum they got to earn a profit on drilling & refining. 20% would be that much worse. Lead displaced very little volume, so they liked that better as an anti-knock agent (alcohol also is very good for anti-knock). MTBE and some of the other chemicals "oxygenate" as well as alcohol while displacing less gasoline...the cry about "custom blends" is some areas being stricter on what they allow for oxygenating chemicals. AFAIK, everyone allows alcohol to oxygenate to meet the air quality standards. But the oil companies don't want to make one national alcohol blend since that would reduce the amount of oil they're using.

[ThNozzleman]

Well, I only watched about the first few minutes of the video, Noz
Then you really shouldn't comment on it, should you?

[ThNozzleman]

There where political & strategic reasons for getting Saddam out of there, getting direct control of Iraqi oil that primarily is burned in Europe & Aisa wasn't one of them.
Surely you can't be that delusional.

[DaSharkie]

Neither one of you should waste your breath.

[Dalmatian90]

Then you really shouldn't comment on it, should you?

No, I should comment on it.

From the way the beginning montage and the first interview went, I'd trust it as a well-researched news sources as much as I'd trust Fox news. Entertaining, usually. Some correct information, most likely. Something to use to form well-thought opinions or have good knowledge of a subject? Doubtful.

Nope, don't have to waste much time to recognize left-wing propaganda as easily and discount it just as quickly as right-wing propaganda. I know, that conflicts with the view of some here that conservative-types only watch and listen to right-wing media...

Sorry Sharkie...I couldn't stop myself :D

[EFD840]

Dal,

Brazil is getting into ethanol as an alternative to gasoline in a big fashion. They make it from sugar cane and by law their gasoline is something like 20 or 30% ethanol.

Can you imagine what a 30% reduction in American demand would do to the big oil companies? At the same time, think of the positive impact it would have on the farm industry.

As a side note, Embraer, a Brazilian company that is a major player in the regional airliner market, has just gone to market with a 100% ethanol-powered cropduster. The story didn't get much play here, but Australian media did a story. (http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/200503/s1324610.htm) .

Here's a link to EMBRAER's press release (PDF format) (http://www.embraer.com.br/institucional/download/2_083-Prd-VPI-Ethanol_Ipanema_Certification-I-04.pdf) .

The tech specs also say that the engine, tuned specifically to run on ethanol, produces 7% more horsepower than its conventionally fueled twin.

[DaSharkie]

There are a few problems with ethanol though:

1) The cost is kept down through farming subsidies on cron from the federal government.

2) It takes just as much oil to produce the ethanol than it "saves."

3) Even with these subsidies it still is just a bit less in cost than gas is now, and it is still only available in certain parts of the country.

[ThNozzleman]

From the way the beginning montage and the first interview went, I'd trust it as a well-researched news sources as much as I'd trust Fox news. Entertaining, usually. Some correct information, most likely. Something to use to form well-thought opinions or have good knowledge of a subject? Doubtful.
It was actually broadcast on BBC, and featured several informed insiders.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/newsnight/4354269.stm
Nope, don't have to waste much time to recognize left-wing propaganda as easily and discount it just as quickly as right-wing propaganda. I know, that conflicts with the view of some here that conservative-types only watch and listen to right-wing media...
Boy, I sure wish I could make such sound judgement by reviewing only 2% of the material presented.

[TillerMan25]

know, that conflicts with the view of some here that conservative-types only watch and listen to right-wing media...

I don't usually watch any News Programming anymore. It's all to partisan. I just wanna hear my local news and that's it. I could care less about starving people in some third world dump hole or about the latest uprising in Israel. I mainly care about the DC Metro Area.

[Dalmatian90]

There are a few problems with ethanol though:

1) The cost is kept down through farming subsidies on cron from the federal government.

2) It takes just as much oil to produce the ethanol than it "saves."

3) Even with these subsidies it still is just a bit less in cost than gas is now, and it is still only available in certain parts of the country


1)
The farm subsidies should be done away with in any case. In this case, we're subsidizing the corn wether it's made into fuel or not, and that subsidy in the fundemental problem.

Subsidies, if used at all, should be going towards goals of keeping individual farms diversified, keeping the locations of farms diversified across the nation, and reimbursing farmers for loss of production/cropland when they adopt practices that benefit the environment -- i.e. allowing land near streams to lay fallow to help contain farm run-off, etc.

Unfortunately, many of the commodity subsidies today encourage farms to grow a lot of only one or two things...since they base the subsidy on what you grew in the past.

2)
What that ignores is...the exact same statement holds true for...gasoline. For every gallon of gasoline in your tank, another gallon was consumed to provide the energy for extraction, transportation, and refining.

Actually, that's not quite true -- you can debate *a lot* the exact breakdown, although the consensus on gasoline is much firmer that it's in the 85-100% range (for every BTU used to make it, you get end up with between 0.85 and 1 BTU in the tank). Ethanol estimates usually range from 100-160% range (for every BTU used to make it, you end up with 1 to 1.6 BTUs in the tank).

Unfortunately, this is one where depending on what assumptions you plug into the model, and you can get *very* complex on it, you can get lots of different answers for Ethanol's efficiency. All of which are "correct" within their frame of reference.

ALSO, that's BTUs. For Gasoline, we'd pretty much assume that is being taken from petroleum. For Ethanol, we don't have to assume it's a gallon of oil to make a one to one-point-six gallons of ethanol. Because Ethanol itself could be used for the equipment, trucks, processing power it takes after an "ethanol economy" is up and running -- kind of a chicken-and-egg, need the fuel there to justify engines that will burn the fuel. That would still leave a need for some petroleum for use in fertilizers and pesticides if you continue to rely on intensive agriculture to produce the ethanol, and I think we could do a better job reducing both of those as well.

3)
Welcome to the free market :)

As I said, I don't believe in the subsidies, and they could be dispensed with.

Of course, we also give tax breaks to the petroleum industry, and those could also be dispensed with. So that point might be a wash.

But certainly you'd expect as gasoline becomes more expensive, it becomes more attractive at that point to expand ethanol. So part of that answer is how long do we hold the cost steady by displacing gasoline.

==========
Like I said, it's not a total solution, but it can be part of a solution.

[Dalmatian90]

It was actually broadcast on BBC, and featured several informed insiders.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programm...ght/4354269.stm

Wow, newsflash. Even the BBC has their equivelant of Geraldo Riveria to turn to.

NewsNight is their "opinionated" news program that likes to stir up controversy...imho more for the entertainment value than the news value (hmmm, sounds like Fox...)

Boy, I sure wish I could make such sound judgement by reviewing only 2% of the material presented.

Not difficult. Go to the store, you have newspapers of record, you have tabloids, you have supermarket tabloids. And even the freebie tabloids.

Look at the front pages, and you can figure out whose into sensationalism and entertainment, and who tries to put more time into accuracy and thoroughness. 2% decisions all the time. I gave the video a shot, just it became apparantent very quickly they're a TV tabloid. Plunk goes there credibility.

[DaSharkie]

I am with you Dal. I despise subsidies. Harkens to socialism/communism.

Even more hipocritical since the government detests other nations subsidizing industries (heck France :rolleyes: , Great Britain, Germany and others nations own a good portion of Airbus) but yet we do the same. Our government actually pays farmers to NOT grow crops. That is a great use of our tax dollars isn't it?

What else is detestable for the cost of gas that is not reported in the news (go figure) is that large portions of the oil produced have been diverted to China and India (especially the oil in the Middle East.) If you think about it, it makes sense and cents. Tankers can make more trips, shorter trips, don't have to cross the Suez Canal (which costs more money), and are still paid the same price for their products. Hmmmmmm, makes sense to me.

China and India are absolute booming economies. Large amounts of cement are shipped there as well, resulting in increased costs here. I read an article regarding a school being built back in Massachusetts whose cost rose significantly due to the increase in cost for cement and additional funding needed to be sought.


I am all for getting rid of dependence on oil, but the tree huggers freak ehen you mention construction of nuclear reactors (the absolute safest and least expensive method for producing electricity), the environmentalists are even freaking about the construction of a wind farm off of Cape Cod in Massachusetts, but would rather have oil and coal to produce pollution and effect costs. If you want to not use oil, then you need to get serious about doing it and take the steps to do so.

Understand your point about ethanol too.

Nothing is going to change in any event.

[ThNozzleman]

I gave the video a shot, just it became apparantent very quickly they're a TV tabloid. Plunk goes there credibility.
And by trashing something you didn't even watch..."plunk" goes your credibility.