Crossly/Speedlay Hose Loads

[tkakuris]

What are your thoughts on having a pre-connected crosslay versus a non-preconnetected crosslay? We are looking at our departments operations and want to look at how others are loading their hose? We currently have 150' preconnected crosslays that are shoulder loaded and pay off from the top. I noticed that LA City does not have pre-connected hose and carries 300' in the crosslay bed, the engineer breaks the coupling and connects when ready. Does anyone else do this?
What are your thoughts?

[k1500chevy97]

We just have a regular flatload on ours. 100' up and 50' down preconnected one with a nozzle on each side of the unit. We also have 150' of extra line for each pre-con right next to it.

We tried not having them connected but it was sort of an pain.


http://photos.imageevent.com/k1500chevy97/firepics2/large/IM003771.JPG

http://photos.imageevent.com/k1500chevy97/firepics2/large/IM003780.JPG

[Dave1983]

Preconnects are the way to go. That set up in LA (and Im sure else where) makes no sense to me. We have a "deadlay" (non-connected crosslay) with 200' of 3" for extending lines, but our regular attack lines are pre-connects.

We have a shoulder load now (50' or 100' in the bed and 100' on the shoulder depending on the load length) but are probalby going to change to an "S" load (aka tripple load or Philly load). We are the only department in my county not to use the "S", so we are looking to get with the program.:cool:

[Fire304]

We have a pair of 200' 1.75" cross lays, preconnected. We used to have a 400' dead lay next to the preconnects but lost that when we installed a 2.5" Blitz-Fire cross lay with 200'.

As to what LA does, if you had 30-40 people showing up on your first alarm you could run non-connected too, but me I'm lucky to have 8 in the first 15 minutes, I'll take every time saver I can lay my hands on.

[FWDbuff]

We have a shoulder load now (50' or 100' in the bed and 100' on the shoulder depending on the load length) but are probalby going to change to an "S" load (aka tripple load or Philly load). We are the only department in my county not to use the "S", so we are looking to get with the program

Dave- Never heard of the triple pack referred to as the "Philly Load", and I am FROM Philly!!!!! LOL!!!! Can you tell me where you heard this????

And for the record, I think the Triple Pack is great, especially for low-manning situations- One guy can grab the knob and the fold (stuffed into the bail for ease of grabness) and go- the hose then comes out straight, drops to the ground (not in a tangled mess of spaghetti) and when on the ground totally, there are only 3 folds- meaning the driver can charge the line immediately!

It's not the best line for everyone or the cure-of-all-cures, but it sure is a good line when you may only have a 3 man engine company.

[BigRig]

Anyone using a 'triple load' on a reel for a pre-connect?

[Res343cue]

Originally posted by BigRig
Anyone using a 'triple load' on a reel for a pre-connect?

We've got reels, but they are just a "flat load"...

[dmleblanc]

stuffed into the bail for ease of grabness

"Ease of grabness"....That's a phrase I'll have to remember....:p

[CaptainS]

My department does both 2 1.5" pre-connects 200 feet each, 1 2.5" pre-connect 200 feet and then we have 500 feet of 1.5" deadlay of the rear.

We ahve some real sh**ty set backs etc 200 feet wont cut it. It is good to have a back up.

[BirkenVogt]

I agree, I think it was in the paper FH mag, they were outlining strategies for rural departments, and their basic premise was if you've got it, preconnect it. I know in LA they do it that way and I agree it might be the way to go if you've got lots of people but agreed if you need time savers preconnected is the way to go. I too prefer triple fold, when I first saw it it kind of bewildered me but as the years go by I see its great advantages, one man pulls and one man charges, but its great feature is it's easy to put back, not particular about lengths of folds or anything, impossible to screw it up.

We used to use what is known to us as a Miami load where the hose was coiled around a long board and loaded that way so it could be dropped on the ground and charged in place in one small pile and then you walk away where the hose pays out from the center, but if it is not loaded "just so" it ties itself in knots. Got so bad people had to put tags on the loads so they'd know who to blame when it screwed up. However we still use this strategy for hotel packs and the local CDF station loads their 100' SJ hose packs this way and it works great in that service since you don't have a big bight dragging along the ground as you advance hose hooking on every stick and branch on the mountain side.

Birken

[lvwrench]

Oh well everyone does it different hoprefully because it is what works best where you are at. In Vegas it is 1000' of 5" and 1200' of 2 1/2" in the main hosebed with a 100' bumper load preconnected and three 150' crosslays all preconnected as well as a 200' 1" reel hose. Trying to cover it all from a dumpster fire to the big ones. Keep it safe.

[FyredUp]

LA carries dead loads due to the varying occupancies that occur across the city. It would be impractical for them to have 200, 300 and 400 foot preconnects. So as the line is advanced the MPO diconnects the hose at an appropriate point and then connects it to the pump.

My volly FD carries...2-200 foot 2 inch crosslay preconnects, 1-300 foot rear 2 inch preconnect, 1 rear 400 foot 3 inch deadlay with a wye and 2-100 foot 2 inch lines, 1 rear 100 foot 2 inch preconnect, 1 rear 200 foot 3 inch preconnect attached to an Elkhart Stinger. We also carry 200 feet of 1 inch forestry hose and 1050 feet of 5 inch hose.

FyredUp

[oldman21220]

Dead-lays also mean that you need pump operators. You can't just spool it up to the mark on the gauge.

[Fire304]

Originally posted by BirkenVogt
Got so bad people had to put tags on the loads so they'd know who to blame when it screwed up.
ROTFLMAO
I think I'll sugest this at the next all hands, only we'll put it on everything, so next time I find...
-the ambulance left in reverse in the barn
-I find the seat on my pumper so far forward I can tast my knees when I sit
-I find the milk on the kitchen counter
-I find B foam in the A tank
-I find the shore charger not plugged in

I could just keep going and going....:D

[RFDACM]

We've tried a bunch of loads over the past 10 years. The last load was the triple layer. It worked ok, but was a problem downtown where you couldn't come straight out of the speedlay bed. The newest load is a hybrid designed to pull off the truck in a short distance and let the nozzleman end up at the objective with 50' in his hands. basically it starts with 2-3 flat loaded flakes topped by a triple layer and finished with a horseshoe of 50'. It sounds quite complex, but its actually quite easy and pull great every time.
As for LA, many departments on the East Coast also use only dead lays. The problems with crosslays and speedlays are:
-tendancy to end up with the bed in line with the front door which prevents the truck from owning the address.
-always get pulled with no forethought as to the distance
-they're a pain to extend

On the pro side:
- they're quick
- can mark the gauges and set it and forget it!

The estimatation of the hose stretch is becoming a lost art, as most everyone pulls the preconnect then adds hose when they come up short.

[FFFRED]

The estimatation of the hose stretch is becoming a lost art, as most everyone pulls the preconnect then adds hose when they come up short.

Exactly bro, This should be an unacceptable delay and unacceptable performance of an Engine Co. However it seems most don't care as they are to simple minded to learn how to properly estimate hose and properly design an apparatus. The dumming down of the fire service continues... :( :rolleyes:

Most would do well to have a few preconnected hoses. However I know many depts become over reliant on them and unbelievable as it sounds some even fail to have static hose loads! They have 3 and 4 preconnected hose loads! :rolleyes: A good mix of both would serve most depts...however all-in-one engines with 7ft high hosebeds and the swiss-army knives of the fire service Quints don't lend themselves to adequate hosebeds, ergonomicly placed and with effective options for stretching hose.

FTM-PTB

[npfd801]

The city department just south of us runs no engines with crosslays, everything comes off the rear for preconnects. If the folks won't learn to pull past the building, then we'll force them to. They do have a couple of rescue engines with crosslays, which may be due to the reduced hosebed on these rigs.

I agree with the dumbing down of the fire service. Even having a standard number in your head as a guide for friction loss for a given length and diameter of hose would go a long way. I had a discussion with the chief and a Lt. of a department near us at a joint training where they were pumping lines for a burn tower. They looked at me like I was crazy when I told them they were dead wrong pumping 80 psi into their 200 foot 1-3/4 line with a fog nozzle. Wow.

Remind me never to go interior when their engine is pumping...

[Dave1983]

Dave- Never heard of the triple pack referred to as the "Philly Load", and I am FROM Philly!!!!! LOL!!!! Can you tell me where you heard this????

Thats what the departments who use it call it. Ive heard it refered to as the "tripple" the "S" and the "Philly" load. I just assumed it came from Philly.:eek: ;)

[Dave1983]

LA carries dead loads due to the varying occupancies that occur across the city. It would be impractical for them to have 200, 300 and 400 foot preconnects

I understand that. We have varying occpancies, as does most every other FD in this country. Still doesnt explain why you wouldnt have ANY preconnected lines.


Exactly bro, This should be an unacceptable delay and unacceptable performance of an Engine Co. However it seems most don't care as they are to simple minded to learn how to properly estimate hose and properly design an apparatus. The dumming down of the fire service continues...

Good point, but not exactly a fit for all. Yeah, we have preconnects. But we also have deadlays. If we pull up and the CO sees that one of the preconnects wont reach, we pull the deadlay. Some of us still "get it".;)

[BirkenVogt]

Originally posted by RFDACM
We've tried a bunch of loads over the past 10 years. The last load was the triple layer. It worked ok, but was a problem downtown where you couldn't come straight out of the speedlay bed.

In defense of the triple fold I would like to address this. We all have rollers on the edges of the preconnects do we not? Sure, if you have to pull the triple fold at less than 90° to the engine it becomes more difficult. But it is not impossible. Lean into it and get the job done I say.

Also if you have another hand stretching the triple fold he can stand where it comes off the engine and pull it. The beauty of the load is that pretty much no matter how you pull it if you make some effort to get it spread out on the ground it will charge OK, and if you pull the nozzle end it will always straighten out.

Birken

[Fire304]

Originally posted by BirkenVogt
We all have rollers on the edges of the preconnects do we not?

No, we don't, see photo below. This is becomeing very common on newer trucks with adjustable cross lay beds.

Still, I like the triple load myself, 2nd person on the line can help pull it from the crosslay, or the pump operator.

[TC33FF]

k1500chevy97, Looks like you have a minute man load. We use the same load on our trucks. Pull it out on the shoulders and walk it out. Nice to have it this way for apartments and long lays. Triple lays are good for house and small front yards due to all of it being in a 50 ft area. The minute man load we have is 50 ft flat load then 100 ft minute man so you have a 100 ft on the shoulder to walk out. We love it and have tried the flat load, minute man and other variations. we have a 150 ft line in the bumper for junk call that is just flat loaded. chris

[BirkenVogt]

I must throw in here in defense of the triple fold that another great feature is it can be used anywhere. I have one engine with a front bumper box that is about 2 feet wide by 1-1/2 foot long and I keep a hundred of synthetic wildland hose in there, you guessed it, triple fold. Also we have some off the hose beds too as well as the cross lays.

I know I sound monotonous ;) but I really like 'em, as I like anything that standardizes, and also works well.

Birken

[kfactor]

At least from where we sit here in our FD, I think dead loads for cross lays (or off the back if the hose bed were lower) is worth a look. A couple years ago we added 50 ft. to our 200 ft. pre-connect 1 3/4's due to some larger homes that were being built with deep set backs. Depending on where we spotted the attack engine, we could come up short when we made the attack from the rear of the house.
Problem is, what do you do with 250' of pre-connect when the call is in the older village part of town where the front door is 20-25' from the street?

As a pump operator, I'd much rather deal with a simple coupling break and connect to a discharge than trying to figure out what to do with all that hose or I have to break the pre-connect anyway, so what's the benefit? There are also cases where we need more than 250' and we've got a 300 footer off the back with another 100' dead sitting below it.

Dead loads in the cross-lays seems real reasonable to me to address the wide range of attack line lengths we run into. Pre-connected cross-lays seem to be tradition now and their is a lot of resistance to changes in tradition in the fire service.

[BirkenVogt]

Well I like a quote I saw in a magazine that said if you've got it, pre connect it. That way it is quick to deploy in normal circumstances. We keep a couple extra hundred foot packs in a dead lay between the two crosslays on one engine. They are set up in what we have called Miami style where you start with the male end and wind it around a 4-6' long board. Then when you want to deploy you connect your already existing hose to the female that is on the outside, nozzle to the male that is on the inside, spread it out on the ground in a rough circle and then charge it as it lies, then you have a series of loops of charged hose on the ground that you just pull the nozzle end straight out of the pile, so you can put the pile right at the front door.

Birken

[Dave1983]

Originally posted by TC33FF
k1500chevy97, Looks like you have a minute man load. We use the same load on our trucks. Pull it out on the shoulders and walk it out. Nice to have it this way for apartments and long lays. Triple lays are good for house and small front yards due to all of it being in a 50 ft area. The minute man load we have is 50 ft flat load then 100 ft minute man so you have a 100 ft on the shoulder to walk out. We love it and have tried the flat load, minute man and other variations. we have a 150 ft line in the bumper for junk call that is just flat loaded. chris

Thats what we have now and are looking too switch to the tripple. We are the only department in my county (out of 17) that uses it and weve had problems on scenes with MA crews not knowing how to pull our load.

[jfTL41]

The only answer is what works for your area and more importantly TRAINING (repetition). At work we have dead loads of 6 lenghts(50') of 1 3/4" connected to 12 lengths of 2 1/2. The rig is generally at the hydrant and the line is stretched to the desired length and broken. This must be taught and drilled on to maintain proficiency. We frequently stretch 10-12 lengths of hose into apartment buildings, I don't think a 600 foot preconnect would be the answer.
In my volly dept we have both preconnected lines and dead loads which we train on for our garden apt, and condo complexes, as well as residences that are set way back from the street.

[bwspeer]

Could someone post a picture of the 'triple load' we use all regular flat loads that are preconnected. Our additional hose is carried in rolls on top of the trucks. We are a rural department that may have 2 to 3 people in the first 5 to 10 minutes according to the time of day and are always looking to make improvements.:cool:

[BirkenVogt]

Here is a really crude drawing

What happens is you lay the hose out on the ground, flat, with the bottom line in the drawing laying on the ground and then the next two on the drawing laying flat stacked on top of it. So it gets folded over and goes back to the engine and then gets folded over and goes back out to the nozzle. Then you load the whole thing as one, as if the three stacked hoses were one single flat load. The stinger I drew is optional. The loop of hose below the nozzle should extend a little ways beyond the nozzle. I prefer to jam this loop through the bale of the nozzle to remind people to pull all 3 at once. But it is not necessary if they just grab the nozzle and loop at the same time. Beware of charging the hose if the nozzle is still through the bale;)

It doesn't just have to be a crosslay. It can also be loaded in a rear hose bed, or the small bucket sometimes found in a front bumper, or in a cabinet sometimes found on a brush truck, or also vertically accordion style underneath the hose reel on a low side brush truck. Once you have laid it out as per the picture you can pretty much pack it any way you want so long as it will pull back out and lay on the ground more or less the same as it was at first.

Birken

[SpartanGuy]

We have a number of larger houses, commercial structures, and long setbacks in our area.

We're considering going to all 2" hose right now, but until then, we extended our preconnects in the following fashion:

We use a minuteman load with 200' of 1.75" hose to shoulder, with 50-100'(depending on the individual preconnect) of 2.5" hose in the bed. That way, you should the 1.75", and someone behind you flakes out the 2.5". Decreases the friction loss a lot for a long lay:)

[BirkenVogt]

If you are considering 2" then consider this: a department where I once attended training (Rocklin, Ca) at the time had flow tested different configurations and they found they got the best use out of having the first sections off the engine be 2" because it just gets pulled off and lays there, and the last sections be 1-3/4", for ease of manuverability. I don't know if they are still doing it this way but it seems like a good idea if you can get people to understand it.

Birken