Union

[regamortis]

I am on the waiting list for Alpharetta Fire here in Ga, i Volunteer right now and right every c shift because were a combi. deparment. but when I be come paid is it worth it to stop volunteering and join the union?
Rega

[pfd4life]

Depends on how the contract is for the Union and if the dues you have to pay are going to be worth it. A union can be a good thing, or a bad thing, really depends. If I were you I'd ask the guys around you that are in the union and if you should do it.

[rookiemove]

Unless you feel like the union is somehow hindering progress in the fire department, I would join it. The union is important in protecting you from being taken advantage of by your municipality.

I hope they don't pressure you to leave your combi. department. I still vol. in a combi. department because I get great training and experience there, and because I don't want to turn my back on the place the helped me become a career ff. However, I told the combi. union that if they want me to leave, I will. But I don't see why my paid dept. union knows what is best for my combi. department. They've actually been very mellow about my volunteering. Lots of paid guys in my dept. volunteer.

[rcostain]

First Of All, Good Luck With The Job.

I Am Going To Awnser This Question Based On The Way I Feel.
My Father Is A Union Man With The Teamsters, And Has Been For 29 Years. So Ofcourse I To Support Union Jobs. However, Nobody Can Tell You Who You Can Volunteer Your Time With. This Issue Really Strikes A Nerve With Me Because Most Union Firefighters Got There Start With A Volunteer Fire Department And Now That There Are Paid They Are Told Not To Run With A One.

In My Opinion That Is Bull Sh--! Lets Face It, Those Paid Firefighters Who Got There Start As A Volunteer. Not Only Were Trained Out Of A Vfd's Budget, But Got What Experience They Have
From That Volunteer Fire Department.

Yes We Do The Same Job They Do And In Most Cases Are Schooling
Is Also The Same. Not Every City Or Town Or Village Can Afford To Pay There Firefighters That Is Why We Are All Not Paid.

[DaveyBoy]

Before I got hired at the fd (I'm still a proby myself) I worked 5 years for the phone company. I got involved with the union because I could see on a daily basis the benefits of union representation. I had some of the best health benefits in the country (I didn't pay a premium), didn't pay a dime for my dental, made almost 50 a year (that's without a college education), had great vacation time, and had protection when the time came.

Our union made management give us a fair shake and gave us a voice on the job. When you get right down to it, that is what a union is all about-- workers standing together for what is fair, what is right, and for mutual protection.

Although we don't have the right to collectively bargain here in North Carolina a so-called "Right to Work" (for less) state, I joined the union the first chance I had. If you're interested in fair play and gaining a voice on the job I would suggest you do the same thing.

Take care,
Dave

[KeithA8]

I know my opinion will not be popular here but I'm going to give it to you anyway. I'm not from a "right to work state" so my thoughts might not fully apply in your case.
I feel that volunteering when you are a career firefighter is unfair to your employer. We have recently had this come up here in Hartford, CT. The city (not the union) negotiated into the firefighters contract that they can no longer volunteer starting in 2008. This was a 2003 contract. This gave 5 years for guys to separate ties with there volly house and gave the volly towns time to adjust to the change in there staffing. Several area towns around Hartford filed a lawsuit with the city on the bassis that they can not tell a guy what to do on their off time.
The contract negotiated in good faith and signed between the bargaining unit and the city of Hartford is no business of anyone else! In the private world contracts like this happen all the time. (can't open a competing shop, can't moonlight, can't do hazardous things ...........) The city of Hartford brought this up in an effort to reduse sick time usage and protect itself from long term job related health claims. ie: heart & hypertension, cancer, respitory problems..........
Now lets play what if. What if you get injured at a volly fire resulting in you going off the line for 2 months. You take sick time to heal your ailment and the city has to replace your spot with overtime. Does the volly town reimburse your city for your sick time usage and overtime coverage? NO! So why should the city tax payer pay for the volly towns fire protection? It sounds like a stretch but you can see where I'm coming from. Now lets say after 25 years of service you find out you have a cancer that can be pinned to the job. The city has to fully pay the expences that come along with that. Does the volly town pay a portion even though you were exposed to the same type of hazards in the volly town? NO! Can the city deny it's responsibility, forcing you to get into a legal battle? YES! Will the volly town lawyers stand behind you? NO!
I understand that most volunteer towns out there will never be paid and probably shouldn't be paid. And yes I was a volunteer too. And no I don't have anything against volunteers. But the little village you volunteer in will not burn to the ground if you leave. And if it will then they have bigger problems that 1 guy can fix. If you feel guilty about the time and money they spent on training you then you have several options:
1. Donate the money back to them and thank them for the education.
2. Become very active training them and helping them in a non - emergency roll.
3. Be there for all their fund raisers and maybe run a couple of them yourself. Give back to your community any way you can! But protect yourself, your family and your career.

[benlewis60]

excellent post

[KeithA8]

Thanks Ben,
I can't beleive no one is going to argue this. It's a first!

[RadRob]

Thanks Ben,
I can't beleive no one is going to argue this. It's a first!

This thread isn't locked yet. Give it time.

[ChicagoFF]

Thanks Ben,
I can't beleive no one is going to argue this. It's a first!
You are absolutetly WRONG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!








Good post, but someone had to argue!

[KeithA8]

LOL. Thanks, it feels worth it now.

[benlewis60]

well, maybe we can include a discussion of IAFF decals with the words "And Volly" written over top in jiffy marker.


That'll get this thread to 20 pages of arguing real quick.

[rookiemove]

Ben came here asking advice and so far we've all given our opinions with a minimum of rudeness (well, the one guy did swear a little). Maybe people are just being civilized for a change. Or maybe they're afraid of the stinking rotten dead horse that's lurking around the corner waiting for a beating.

[rcostain]

To Keitha8

I Admire What You Wrote. You Are 100% Right About How You Can Give Back To The Vollie Dept. EXCELLENT POST!

[Dave1983]

Its not a union issue here. Department regs prohibit working/volunteering for another FD. I dont think my Local would be opposed, as a lot of our paid staff started as volly's someplace, but since that would go against the IAFF's stand on volunteers they probably wouldnt allow it.

And as far as the comment about the union telling people what they can/cannot do, your right. But they can not let you in the union. Thats thier right.

As for should you join the union, depends on the situation. Weve had a couple guys over the years quite. First off, they loose whatever protections are afforded to union members (and one lost his job) and second at least here, good luck trying to get someone to swap shifts or work a day for you. Joining may be in your best intrest.;)

[DennisTheMenace]

As soon as the AFL-CIO makes sure that the teachers unions leave at the striking of the 3pm bell, I will agree with the union's opposition to career firefighters volunteering.

[KeithA8]

Dennis - you just don't get it!

[DennisTheMenace]

Dennis - you just don't get it!Apparently it is the teachers that don't get it.

I get it, I just don't agree with it.

[KeithA8]

Dennis,
What is it about the teachers that has anything to do with career guys volunteering? Is it because they stay past 3:00? Where I'm from their contaract states the work hours are greater than class hours. How else would they get their lessons done? It's part of their sallery.

[DennisTheMenace]

Dennis,
What is it about the teachers that has anything to do with career guys volunteering? Is it because they stay past 3:00? Where I'm from their contaract states the work hours are greater than class hours. How else would they get their lessons done? It's part of their sallery.Where I am from their stated hours never reach the hours they actully spend on preperation, grading papers, and after school conferences, finishing in the alloted work hours is the exception not the rule. Essentailly those additional hours are voluntary, yet the teacher unions rarely tell/force them to work to the rule and leave the job undone. A guy/girl should be free to Volunteer at their local fire department and contribute what they have to offer to their community without any feeling of intimidation by their brothers. The volunteer department should also take the responcibility of providing healthcare and support for those ailments they contribute to.

[allineedisu]

Yeah join the union, show everyone that you have a set!!! I will buy you the first drink.

[KeithA8]

The volunteer department should also take the responcibility of providing healthcare and support for those ailments they contribute to.

Should but don't! The volunteer dept. will not cover the loss the career dept. will have as a result of an injury (sick time, replacement OT). It is plainly and simply a conflict of interest! Teachers putting extra hours in to get their work done is not a conflict nor does it have inherent risks. If the teacher volunteered in the next school district then it is a problem.
I do agree that teachers should be paid for hours worked! FLSA says you cannot volunteer for your employer and that is essentialy what they are doing. I am not a teacher nor am I married to one so I am not going to argue their working conditions. Their union should!

[hfd66truck]

Rcostain,

Why does the fact the a career guy came from a vollie department weigh in at all? Are you bound for life to your vollie Department because you volunteered there and they trained you? What if the guy doesn't want to volunteer anymore? Is he still obligated to?

Dennis,

apples and oranges...

Spending additional time doing your own job is not the same as volunteering somewhere else. Now show me a teacher that leaves the Elementary school, drives to the Town over, where he/she lives, and teaches a class for nothing....then we would be on the same page.

Keith,

Our contract specifically states that you can't use sick time for an injury from another job. It is to be used only if sick. So you scenario wouldn't work here, they guy would be forced to use vacation time and then ultimately be out of work.

Dave

[regamortis]

Thanks for the help and making it easy to see when i am hired that i will be joining up. also is it worth it to go to work for a big city like atlanta or sticking with a smaller city at first? the reason i ask i have been think about the fact i wish i could be runing lot more calls?

[dmleblanc]

Thanks Ben,
I can't beleive no one is going to argue this. It's a first!


No one's arguing because you seem to have an understanding of both sides of the issue and elected not to turn the thread into another "stupid vollies trying to steal my job" bash-fest. Excellent post and thanks. :)

[wildfire11]

On the topic of union regulations and such, out of curiosity, how does the union feel about wildland firefighters (professionals- not seasonals) becoming a part? We still are exposed to many of the same risks (and still have issues with volunteering status), but to my knowledge, there are not any wildland unions that could help protect us as well. Is this something that the union frowns on, or is it simply because no-one has asked? Thanks.

[crashcrew59]

KeithA8
Now lets play what if. What if you get injured at a volly fire resulting in you going off the line for 2 months. You take sick time to heal your ailment and the city has to replace your spot with overtime. Does the volly town reimburse your city for your sick time usage and overtime coverage? NO! So why should the city tax payer pay for the volly towns fire protection? It sounds like a stretch but you can see where I'm coming from. Now lets say after 25 years of service you find out you have a cancer that can be pinned to the job. The city has to fully pay the expences that come along with that. Does the volly town pay a portion even though you were exposed to the same type of hazards in the volly town? NO! Can the city deny it's responsibility, forcing you to get into a legal battle? YES! Will the volly town lawyers stand behind you? NO!


Now Ive only been a firefighter for about 4 years now...Full time military firefighter and i also volunteer a great deal of my time to a local combination(mostly career) department. My question is, how is being a volly in your off time any different then a guy who works construction on his off time? Now im only looking at this from an possible injury standpoint...I really dont care to get into the whole "scab"/ two hatter bull s$#%.