Oxygen Tank Research (PLEASE HELP)

[justin1114]

I’m an Industrial Design Student At Pratt Institute in New York and am currently working on a project involving the redesigning of self contained breathing apparatus's. I have visited a few fire houses in the area and have found that the oxygen systems carried by the FDNY is the SCOTT Air Pak. If anyone has any info or complaints about the tanks and harnesses that are used in your department I would greatly appreciate your help. This could include uncomfortable straps (ergonomics), bulkiness, problems with objects getting caught, hoses etc. Any feedback at all would be great. Thanks a lot for your time.

[aerial]

Well first off they are not oxygen tanks. They are filled with regular air. Oxygen is an accelerant and it could be a very bad situation if it came into contact with oxygen starved fire. All of the complaint items you listed are legitimate. The hose does get caught on things; they are very bulky and can make navigating through tight spaces difficult. For me being small framed I can never get the straps tight enough, ideally the hip straps should help the thing to sit more on your hips taking pressure off your back. There are a lot worse units out there; we also use the Scott Air Pak. Hope that was able to help you some with your research!

Aerial

[doughesson]

I guess until someone invents a retractable strap,we'll have to deal with excess in the straps after tightening them to fit.
Or maybe an invisible bubble of fresh air to float around us so we do not have to carry heavy air cylinders and wear those masks that make me take off my glasses when packing up.

[dmleblanc]

Awwww, I wanted to be the first one to tell him it's not oxygen..... :( ...... :D

Seriously, though....we use MSA packs in my volunteer department and Scotts in my paid job, so I'm familiar with both. I think one of the biggest improvements in comfort in the past few years has been the move away from steel and aluminum bottles and to fiberglass composite and now carbon-fiber composite bottles. Anything that makes these units lighter is a good thing.

Other improvements in recent years....nose cups built into newer masks help prevent fogging of the facepiece....most units have padded shoulder and hip straps nowadays which are much more comfortable than the old plain webbing in use when I first started....MSA offers an option of a swivel where the hip belt connects to the backplate, which helps the pack to "move" with the user better. Heads-up displays and integrated PASS alarms are either an improvement or a pain, depending on the design and how you feel about them.

And my personal pet peeve....I think all SCBA's should have a chest strap. They come standard on some brands, optional on others, not even offered on some. IMHO, units without chest straps cause additional fatigue because the shoulder straps are always tugging at your shoulders and sliding back, and you're always having to hike the pack back up or shrug the straps higher up on your shoulder....I find with a chest strap the pack stays in place better. Just me, of course.

[temaso3]

We just went and got our stuff done through first onscene. they are in updatate ny. i think the webpage is http://WWW.1onscene.com

we had a ton of questions about chest straps as well! Thanks for the info dmleblanc.

Ted.

[nbfcfireman]

like sated before anything that has to do with weight reduction is great. One thing that I like is the HUD however my company just got two of them and the lights on them are so bright that they actually make a glare on your mask and make it even harder to see. Also with the HUD it actually seems to add an uncomfortable amount of weight to the front of your face.

also with the size aspect, have you seen any of the high pressure 4500lb small bottles. they are great but again smaller is better. a flexible type cylinder would be great dont know how feasable but your the engineer, not me

[dmleblanc]

One thing that I like is the HUD however my company just got two of them and the lights on them are so bright that they actually make a glare on your mask and make it even harder to see.

The HUD on the MSA's don't stay on all the time...they flash for a few seconds at 1/4 intervals (I think they stay on when you get to the last 1/4)....If I recall correctly....I don't get to wear them much anymore... :(

[nbfcfireman]

The HUD on the MSA's don't stay on all the time...they flash for a few seconds at 1/4 intervals (I think they stay on when you get to the last 1/4)....If I recall correctly....I don't get to wear them much anymore...
dmleblanc

we had scotts that did that.

[doughesson]

On the Firehawk mask,the HUD stays on all the time.they flash when the level changes and the number of bars seen goes down.
The constant flashing comes when it's a quarter of a tank but by then the PASS should also be sounding to let you know it's time to leave.

One thing I would like to see is prescription ground face pieces for those of us who look at the world through a windshield.That'd be something to see developed as opposed to the glasses kit needed.
I can't wear contacts(don't like sticking things in my eyes)so that's not an option with me.

The HUD on the MSA's don't stay on all the time...they flash for a few seconds at 1/4 intervals (I think they stay on when you get to the last 1/4)....If I recall correctly....I don't get to wear them much anymore... :(

[ullrichk]

Most of the facepieces I've worn with mask mounted regulators fog up horribly when you're not on air. I wish inhaled room air could be drawn across the inside of the mask to help keep it clear like tank air is.

Whatever doodads get put on SCBA (PASS, gauges, voice communication systems) they need to be well-integrated and not tacked on as an afterthought. Anything hanging off an SCBA is likely to get hung or damaged on something. Some ISI's, for example, have the voice vector which is a tacked-on option. They don't hold up well at all in the real world.

[Res343cue]

Isn't it kind of odd that someone who is 'redesigning' the SCBAs that we use doesn't know that they use air, instead of oxygen?

I know I wouldn't trust someone to design a product if they didn't know what they do / what they are supposed to do!

[RFRDxplorer]

NBFCfireman,

"Finally moving to Maryland, Got the job..RC 26"


Where is that at?

[justin1114]

Isn't it kind of odd that someone who is 'redesigning' the SCBAs that we use doesn't know that they use air, instead of oxygen?

I know I wouldn't trust someone to design a product if they didn't know what they do / what they are supposed to do!
Sorry about the mistake of using oxygen instead of air. I’m focusing more on making the unit as a whole more comfortable. By working with ergonomics and in conjunction with the way the body moves, in order to make it less taxing on individuals in stressing situations. Everybody knows the best information you can get is from people who use the instruments daily. Any info is still greatly appreciated! Thanks for the help.

[Res343cue]

Sorry about the mistake of using oxygen instead of air. I’m focusing more on making the unit as a whole more comfortable. By working with ergonomics and in conjunction with the way the body moves, in order to make it less taxing on individuals in stressing situations. Everybody knows the best information you can get is from people who use the instruments daily. Any info is still greatly appreciated! Thanks for the help.

Design a strap system that will fit the "bigger" guys too, without having to replace the damn thing for each different guy. I've got pretty broad shoulders, it's very uncomfortable for me to clip a chest strep.

Design a face mask that doesn't have ten different "objects" sticking off of it. Nothing ticks me off more then having the voice amp "attached" to my mask, or any of the other gizmos.

Integrate a attachment system onto the chasis of the pack so that they can be used as harnesses. I'd like to see the option of adding adjustable leg straps... thinking about self egress in an extreme situation.

MAKE THEM LIGHTER! ...hmmm, maybe we should just use helium...then maybe we could float if we wanted too!

[ISIscba]

Sorry about the mistake of using oxygen instead of air. I’m focusing more on making the unit as a whole more comfortable. By working with ergonomics and in conjunction with the way the body moves, in order to make it less taxing on individuals in stressing situations. Everybody knows the best information you can get is from people who use the instruments daily. Any info is still greatly appreciated! Thanks for the help.
If you want to design it, the best way to learn about it is to wear it. What type of project is it (for class or research funded by a company?)

As for the HUD glare, see NFPA 1981 section 8.20 "HUD Disabling Glare Test"

[justin1114]

It's for a class. I have had the chance to try it on, only for a moment at one of the local fire departments before they were called on. Would you have any information on where I could possibly get old or faulty equipment (for not too much $)? It would be great to be able to handle an existing product instead of just looking at pictures. Thanks

[blueeighty88]

I can see it now... A full SCBA cylinder, filled with 100% Oxygen... Strapped to my back, crawling in to a room w/ contents.. My mask leaks when I shift to open the nozzle... What the...............

BOOM


As far a making them lighter... CARBON FIBER!

It's a whole new world from the old steel tanks w/ the 1" thin straps. May as well carry a frozen solid indian tank in with ya.

[Epinephrine]

Another thing to look at it the ergonomics of the pack not from the perspective of the wearer, but his/her environment... I think everyone is pointing out the obvious, lighter smaller, and more comfortable. What about making the pack harder to snag on overhead wires? Maybe that means designing the tank with a lower profile or smoother lines. Just a thought.

[scrook056]

It's for a class. I have had the chance to try it on, only for a moment at one of the local fire departments before they were called on. Would you have any information on where I could possibly get old or faulty equipment (for not too much $)? It would be great to be able to handle an existing product instead of just looking at pictures. Thanks

you can get older faulty equipment from ebay if you search SCBA. i dont think it would be really what you are looking for though, if you are trying to redesign the newer SCOTT SCBA's. My dept. uses the scott air-pak fifty 4.5 SCBA's, and we upgraded from ISI vikings. the vikings were probably 10 years old and i'd give anything to have them back. the scott has too many batteries, too many lights, too many hoses, and the bottles valves are trash, we have sent back about half of them to get new valves. the vikings were so simple, they didnt have buddy breather connection, which is the only thing i would say is wrong with it, and i would go without it if it wasnt so helpful in a bad situation. a lot of people have said to make carbon fiber bottles, but those already exist, just buy them, thats not a change to current production. as for comfort, is it really possible to make a rigid framed backpack thats just plain heavy comfortable? oh and the low pressure alarm that starts at 1000psi, i know its a great safety feature, but man that face shaking deal is annoying, i liked the bell from the vikings. and i agree that making them more snag resistant would be great, but it would be important to keep the ability to change out bottles quickly as well as be more snag resistant

[dmleblanc]

Isn't it kind of odd that someone who is 'redesigning' the SCBAs that we use doesn't know that they use air, instead of oxygen?

I know I wouldn't trust someone to design a product if they didn't know what they do / what they are supposed to do!


Waaaaaaaaaaait just a minute....Justin, you aren't in on THIS, are you?


All SCBA's to be obsolete by 2007? (http://forums.firehouse.com/showthread.php?t=74850&highlight=obsolete)

[pfd4life]

I can see it now... A full SCBA cylinder, filled with 100% Oxygen... Strapped to my back, crawling in to a room w/ contents.. My mask leaks when I shift to open the nozzle... What the...............

BOOM


As far a making them lighter... CARBON FIBER!

It's a whole new world from the old steel tanks w/ the 1" thin straps. May as well carry a frozen solid indian tank in with ya.I still ove the older Scott harnesses, with the carbon fiber bottle. for me..those are perfect. The 50's are good, but..these damn NXg2's are over the top..give me a 50, or the old style any day.

[pgfire3]

oxygen, my god. i remember the first time i said oxygen tank at my FD, i got duck-taped to the flag pole.

All SCBA have problems, none of them are perfect, send me an email on what exactly you need and i will be happy to help, doubleh89@hotmail.com.

the question you asked is a very wide range question since there are so much, so shoot me a email and leave oxygen out and replace it with compressed air or air.

hey, that would make a nice paragraph in your report, "it is not oxygen in SCBA, it is compressed are, because..." you can credit that to harrison hall. ;)