Nervous with ladders

[imnumber1]

Hi!

Our station gets few working fires, and we dont always get on the roof for that matter. During firefighter I class, we never did do any roof work. So I have absolutely no experience with ventilation on the roof or any roof work at all. So firstly, is there any courses or ways to gather some experience with this so Im not a complete idiot when I am one day ordered to get on the roof? Any suggestions on roof work? Something in particular that has always gotten to me is I know that the ventilation hole needs to be about 4ft x 4ft as high as I can get it, right above the fire. Now I heard or read something that you should try not to cut through the rafters. But how do you know where the rafters are? How do you not cut through them? We have a cutters edge saw on one of our engines. If I take that up there I can set the depth of the cut. Is there a specific depth I should set it to before making a cut?

Also I am a little nervous when it comes to heights. Getting onto a relatively flat roof no matter how high up I can usually do with no problem, although I never climbed higher than one or two stories on a ladder either - but once I'm actually on the roof I feel more comfortable. But I become extremely nervous if the roof is relatively steep. Throwing a roof ladder up there to walk on is helpful, but still I'm usually scared out of my mind on a steep slope. I've been on a steep roof only once, during training, when there was a ladder on top of the roof to improve our footing. Simply walk up the roof and then come back down, no equipment with me either during the training. So I don't even know what its like to carry equipment onto such a steep roof. Carrying it up onto a relatively flat roof should be no problem. But many of the other firefighters seem to jump up there on the steep roofs with no problem. So does anyone else have the same problem? Any ideas to deal with it? Or should I be sure to let someone know I'm uncomfortable with the job if I am one day ordered to get up there?

Thanks
Jay

[PFDTruck18]

Finding the rafters, sound the roof. Youre not only doing it for saftey but to know where to start. When you start your cut you should be able to "feel" the rafters as you approach them by the work your saw is doing, simply lift the saw to allow it to skim over the rafter still cutting the roof but not the rafter. Dont like climbing the ladders? Try climbing with your arms straight out in front of you. If your ladder is placed properly your body will be all but straight up and it seems more like high stairs than a ladder. Also, dont look thru the ladder or where you came from, look where youre going, UP! When you make the top of the ladder, sound the roof and step on. Continue sounding the roof till youre where you need to be. Look at the shape and construction of the building, that will give you hints as to how the rafters run. Im not a big fan of the depth gauge on the cutters edge. As with most of the guys I work with, we slide the gauge fully open and lock it there. I know how deep I gotta cut, I dont need no stinking gauges to tell me that. You want practice. Build a frame that simulates most of the roofs in your area, put some chip board on it and get to cutting. When the chip board is cut to pieces, put a new piece on. You will learn by feel and trial and error. Put the simulated rafters closer than would be realistic so you can get the feel of the rafter and get more practice skimming over em. And last but not least, always remember to open the ceiling after cutting the hole. That hole is no good unless you actually open it to the fire room. If youre ordered to the roof, it should be with somebody else. Do the work but let them show you how and why.

[Skwerl530]

First off you should always let somone know you are uncomfortable with a job before it is assigned. Have a chat with your officer. Any officer worth his salt will work with you on the problem and offer advice or training opportunities.

You really dont want to cut the rafters when using a saw on a roof. That is not to say that the entire roof is going to collapse if you knick it by 1/8". It sounds like you just need more training and practice on the roof. Your officer should be able to point you to a local class that will cover what you need.

Good luck

[doughesson]

One of my few admitted fears is that of heights.
I don't go out of my way to experience high places but since I know it's part of the job,I climb up into the hose tower(3 stories) and hang out while awaiting the tones at my volunteer station.
Even though I am up there going over my Essentials,I make sure to look around and get comfortable with being off the ground like that.
We haven't gotten to do a roof yet in my 2 years at my department but I have been called to scale a few ladders in recent months.
No problemo with that.I just concentrate on what I am doing and what to do when I get up to the work area.

[pfd4life]

I as well do not enjoy heights. I don't have a fear of heights, I have a fear from FALLING from those heights. Talk with your officers..you'll eventually get comfortable with it.

[paris04]

I was never a fan of heights, never been on a plane, etc. nothing like that... I'm getting over it (slowly) but ladders totally freak me out. My dad was shingling our garage roof and it's not that high or steep... but yeah... I didn't like the idea.

I used to have an extreme fear of getting needles and now I'm a regular blood donor--so anything's possible if I work at it.

[Yaaooo]

When you first go on the roof you cut an inspection hole. You start at a 45 degree angle from the wall and cut unitl you feel a rafter and then about 6 inches past it. Turn around and cut back toward the wall. Basically cutting a triangle. Pop it out stick youre head in the hole. That will tell you the construction, where the rafters are going and how thinck the roofing material. As you walk toward the fire cut little triangles every few feet. these will help you identify where the fire might be...and the thickness of the roofing material in that area. SInce you guys have the cutter's edge once you know how deep iit is you can select your depth and just cut. If you want a good book on Ventilation check out Truck Company Operations by Ret. Battalion Chief John Mittendorf LAFD.

[ChicagoFF]

Hi!

Now I heard or read something that you should try not to cut through the rafters. But how do you know where the rafters are? How do you not cut through them?
Use an axe!
Also I am a little nervous when it comes to heights. Jay
Don't worry about it - when you get sent there at a fire you'll be too nervous about doing your job to worry about the height. Good luck!

[quint6captain]

Overcoming ladder phobia, like anything, will just take you a little time and training. When I started years ago, I was terrified of the aerial ladder. After time and a lot of climbs I was able to overcome it. Now it's no biggie. Like some of the other Brothers have said, let your officer know and ask for some help working on it. You'll be fine.

Q6cap

[Captnpat]

"Pop it out stick youre head in the hole. That will tell you the construction, where the rafters are going and how thinck the roofing material."

Looking through the hole you just cut for ventalition? If you do that, you burn your face off! If you CAN do that, you cut at the wrong spot!

imnumber1:
Take a Ladder Co. Operation class, from someone who has experience in actually cutting roofs and working on them. There's a number of people who have class's, if not your county or state, then get you department to sponser one , try http://www.taskforce1.net/
I'm a little partial to them :)
Stay safe

[FWDbuff]

Always remember- If you are going to cut a hole, dont make a girly one....Plywood gets replaced in 4x8 sheets! The faster and more smoke that gets evacuated, the faster interior conditions improve for both FF's and trapped victims!

[PFDTruck18]

Youre actually telling some guy that doesnt know what hes doing to "stick his head" in the fooking vent hole! Are you absolutely crazy? Get inline with the rest of the fools that have "great" ideas about how to be a truckie.

Please, please, please dont stick your head in the damn hole. When youre ordered to the roof you should be looking at the dwelling and identifying where the bulk of the fire is and relate that to the best place to vent the roof. Your job is to vent and get the hell off. I would not suggest the tip about cutting small holes everywhere. Stick with center of fire room, big hole atleast 4x4, pop the ceiling and get the hell off unless you need to cut a second hole.

Please dont listen to just anybody on here. Just cause they write something doesnt make it right.

[Captnpat]

When you first go on the roof you cut an inspection hole. You start at a 45 degree angle from the wall and cut unitl you feel a rafter and then about 6 inches past it. Turn around and cut back toward the wall. Basically cutting a triangle. Pop it out stick youre head in the hole. That will tell you the construction, where the rafters are going and how thinck the roofing material. As you walk toward the fire cut little triangles every few feet. these will help you identify where the fire might be...and the thickness of the roofing material in that area. SInce you guys have the cutter's edge once you know how deep iit is you can select your depth and just cut. If you want a good book on Ventilation check out Truck Company Operations by Ret. Battalion Chief John Mittendorf LAFD. :eek:

I really hope that thats not taught in any fire school - anywhere! Like I said before (previous post) find a QUALIFIED AND EXPERIENCED FF who has been there and done that to help you. Roof operations is not something to take lightly. Be safe. PFD I'm with you brother!

[Captnpat]

Yaahooo: ( you must be)
The more I read that, the more I'm amazed that you even posted it. Don't be putting things like that out there, that could get someone killed!

[imnumber1]

Yeah dont worry - I noticed that method was a bit odd. Looks like the I need to see an officer or sign up for some training or both! Just do something to get some practice.

[MrIrons]

When you first go on the roof you cut an inspection hole. You start at a 45 degree angle from the wall and cut unitl you feel a rafter and then about 6 inches past it. Turn around and cut back toward the wall. Basically cutting a triangle. Pop it out stick youre head in the hole. That will tell you the construction, where the rafters are going and how thinck the roofing material. As you walk toward the fire cut little triangles every few feet. these will help you identify where the fire might be...and the thickness of the roofing material in that area. SInce you guys have the cutter's edge once you know how deep iit is you can select your depth and just cut. If you want a good book on Ventilation check out Truck Company Operations by Ret. Battalion Chief John Mittendorf LAFD.

Is this supposed to be a joke or sarcastic?? If so you should clarify then. Dont come on here giving advice that is wrong and deadly.

[MrIrons]

Youre actually telling some guy that doesnt know what hes doing to "stick his head" in the fooking vent hole! Are you absolutely crazy? Get inline with the rest of the fools that have "great" ideas about how to be a truckie.

Please, please, please dont stick your head in the damn hole. When youre ordered to the roof you should be looking at the dwelling and identifying where the bulk of the fire is and relate that to the best place to vent the roof. Your job is to vent and get the hell off. I would not suggest the tip about cutting small holes everywhere. Stick with center of fire room, big hole atleast 4x4, pop the ceiling and get the hell off unless you need to cut a second hole.

Please dont listen to just anybody on here. Just cause they write something doesnt make it right.

Right on Brother

FTM-PTB

[doughesson]

Not gonna do it.Wouldn't be prudent.It's bad.It's bad.
My department doesn't go up on the roof if the fire's been burning for more than 5 minutes.Since we only know that it took us 6 minutes to get to the station and thence on to the fire,ain't no one going on a roof that could collapse and for Dang sure,no one's going to stick their face into a hole above a fire.
I might not be the most experienced truckie and I am one because I get assigned to pull ceilings and vent a structure more than anything else,but even I won't do that nor will I ever tell anyone else to do so.


Pop it out stick youre head in the hole. That will tell you the construction, where the rafters are going and how thinck the roofing material. .

[Yaaooo]

"Pop it out stick youre head in the hole. That will tell you the construction, where the rafters are going and how thinck the roofing material."

Looking through the hole you just cut for ventalition? If you do that, you burn your face off! If you CAN do that, you cut at the wrong spot!

imnumber1:/[/url]
I'm a little partial to them :)
Stay safe


Its an inspection hole that we cut right when we get off the ladder. Its not a ventilation hole. We're taught to go from the uninvolved to the involved. Obviously if smoke and flame are pouring out I ain't stickin' my head in there.
I also should have chosen my words more carefully and put look into the hole instead. Wasn't about ruffling anyone's feathers here. But that' is almost word for word the SOPs of my department.

[Captnpat]

Its an inspection hole that we cut right when we get off the ladder. Its not a ventilation hole. We're taught to go from the uninvolved to the involved. Obviously if smoke and flame are pouring out I ain't stickin' my head in there.
I also should have chosen my words more carefully and put look into the hole instead. Wasn't about ruffling anyone's feathers here. But that' is almost word for word the SOPs of my department.

If you cut "inspection" holes starting from the uninvolved side to the invovled side, then what happens to your escape route when fire vents from them? - which it will, because you vented it. You always keep your escape route open. You might want to revisit your SOP's.
Stay safe

[pfd4life]

If you cut "inspection" holes starting from the uninvolved side to the invovled side, then what happens to your escape route when fire vents from them? - which it will, because you vented it. You always keep your escape route open. You might want to revisit your SOP's.
Stay safe

Good to hear a voice of reason, Yaaooo...um, guessing if this is a peaked roof, it must take you a rather good long time to take down and re-position those roof ladders? Oh and what point does making inspection cuts have..two places to vent, over the fire, or as close as you can get.....right?

[fireman4949]

When you first go on the roof you cut an inspection hole. You start at a 45 degree angle from the wall and cut unitl you feel a rafter and then about 6 inches past it. Turn around and cut back toward the wall. Basically cutting a triangle. Pop it out stick youre head in the hole. That will tell you the construction, where the rafters are going and how thinck the roofing material. As you walk toward the fire cut little triangles every few feet. these will help you identify where the fire might be...and the thickness of the roofing material in that area. SInce you guys have the cutter's edge once you know how deep iit is you can select your depth and just cut. If you want a good book on Ventilation check out Truck Company Operations by Ret. Battalion Chief John Mittendorf LAFD.


...And when you have an unidentified, potentially hazardous material spill, dip your fingers into the glowing green liquid, sniff vigorously, then taste. Finally, rub the remainder of the product onto your cheeks (either pair). If you suddenly experience a severe burning sensation, your heart rate quadruples and you become short of breath, chances are you have a toxic spill "on your hands"! :p




Kevin :D

[BurninFlame91]

I'm deathly afraid of heights and i HATE ladders.... i'm currently in essentials and i had to climb up a ladder on to the roof of a building.... needless to say...i'm glad that part of the class is over for now.

[benlewis60]

Back to the original question:

1)
If you feel you are lacking when it comes to ladder work you need to tell your Captain that you need some ladder training. Don't wait until you are on scene to tell him you are uncomfortable with something. Fix the problem now so that you can be of use when needed.

Ladders are a big part of the job yet I always seem to see guys sh*t the bed once they are asked to do anything with them from deployment to rescue.

There are lots of courses you can take but the better choice is to talk to your Captain. Your department should have set guidelines for deployment and use that you need to know.... learning a different method of deployment from what your department expects could be a problem.


2) Ventilating a roof is a whole other story from ladders in general. If your department is not training guys to vent a roof, they shouldn't be going up there. Some might even suggest there is no reason for vertical ventilation anyway... but that's for another thread.

If you need to learn about roofs and can't/won't do it in training with your department i suggest you find a roofer who will let you come have a look as he puts up a roof. or, at least pick up a book. There are a lot of great books on construction related to the fire service.

If you want to get real funky with it, build some props to practice on. it sounds like you are on a volunteer dept. Ask if you can make some props (all you need to do is frame some joists at the right spacing with plywood on top and covered with shingles). Throw this prop on top of a building you can work on. Then you and others can ladder the building, take the tools and roof ladder up there and cut some holes. practice sounding the roof... finding rafters and practice your cuts.


As for carrying tools etc to a roof, this too is based on department standards. They may prefer tools to be hoisted for example.


Basically, I strongly suggest you have a chat with your Captain, T.O or whoever else is responsible for YOUR training and ask to do some of these things. It is good that you are keen to learn but you need to learn inside your department in order to grasp the way they want things done. And frankly... it is their responsibility to train you.

[IGotTheJumpSeat]

Practice and you'll become more comfortable on ladders. I really never had a problem with ladders or roofs of high pitch from the start. I have however had an issue in the past of a forcefull, and sudden meeting with the ground, due to gravity, from a second story tin roof.....

[RadRob]

Okay, to overcome your fear of ladders, just picture everyone around you in their underwear. Wait. That's fear of public speaking. Umm... Ladders.

Practice. Get up there and get comfortable. The more you are on a ladder, the more comfortable and familiar you will be. I HATED ladders and heights. I did it because I had to. Now, I am comfortable because I spent a lot of time going up, and coming down. Keeep working on it and you will be fine.