Need Help With Nozzle And Back Up!

[chrisff]

thanks to all who replied to this post

[benlewis60]

well... handlines run at proper pressure are tough to handle.

Here's a few things that might help you out:

1) When you are on the nozzle, focus on keeping the nozzle well out in front of you. At least a foot. If your let the nozzle get too close to your body, the nozzle reaction when open will throw you around pretty good. And make sure the guy behind you is actually helping rather than just 'laying hand' as we used to call some lazy buggers.

2)There are a few different opinions on being a backup man. Some old timers say to stay a few extra feet back... but personally, I am a fan of having my backup guys right behind me. Feet about 3 feet or so back... but with an extended arm (extended straight), hand on the hose, tucked right into my armpit. This way... if the hose starts moving backwards (towards the nozzleman's body) then the backup guy knows he needs to take up more of the reaction and he can focus on maintaining that straight arm and pushing it back into nozzleman's armpit.

make sure also that you and your backup man are advancing and retreating in a straight line so that the hose curvature is not causing you more grief.

Check the picture below: the backup guy could be a foot back with his feet... but notice his left arm is straight and stuck in nozzle man's armpit. If that hose comes back towards him, he can use his right arm that is bent in a strength position to pulll hose toward the nozzle until his straight arm is back in the armpit.
Notice also that the nozzle man has the nozzle well out in front of him.


http://www.maddcow.org/images/backup.jpg


3) as for exercising... if you are worried about balance, do lots of lunges with decent weight and lots of weight work on an exercise ball to work out core balance muscles. Always maintain your fitness, but your problems sound more like they are of technique than strength.

[chrisff]

thanks i really appreciate it.

[FD8434]

where are you in probie school? city, state

[doughesson]

Like benlewis60,my department has the back up FF right behind the one on the tip.We brace a foot against the back foot of the leadman and psuh forward on the hose.If one person is doing all the work,they'll tire faster.This is supposed to be a team evolution when we do it correctly.
I don't know if you can use it in training but when you get out to"the fleet"you can use other techniques including a hose tool or other rope or web sling wrapped around the hose to give you additional leverage.Keep the nozzle about a foot or so in front of you and use the pistol grip if equipped to hold on.
We pump 100gpm at 100 psi and even that gives me trouble if the ground is muddy,slick with ice or snow,etc.

[doughesson]

Like benlewis60,my department has the back up FF right behind the one on the tip.We brace a foot against the back foot of the leadman and push forward on the hose.If one person is doing all the work,they'll tire faster.This is supposed to be a team evolution when we do it correctly.You have to co-ordinate when moving but that can be dealt with by telling your partner what you are doing before you do it.
I don't know if you can use it in training but when you get out to"the fleet"you can use other techniques including a hose tool or other rope or web sling wrapped around the hose to give you additional leverage.Keep the nozzle about a foot or so in front of you and use the pistol grip if equipped to hold on.
We pump 100gpm at 100 psi and even that gives me trouble if the ground is muddy,slick with ice or snow,etc.

[baileydonk]

In a drill earlier this year, I was having a hell of a time on the nozzle, no matter what I did it seemed the nozzle was always coming back into my chest/armpit and I was always off balance. Sometimes it's hard in the struggle of the moment to figure out just what it is that is causing the problem... it took me a long time to realize that the problem was my backup person kept having his hand on my back, holding me forward, instead of concentrating on pushing the HOSE forward for me. He was basically pushing me off the end of the hose! There I was feeling like a moron on the nozzle, but in the next evolution with a different backup person I realized that I could do it fine when I wasn't being worked against!

[Halligan84]

A couple of points

First, get on the ground. Those pics of the guys standing up are for car and outside fires where the flow usually isn't that high or hard to handle. I'd get rid of pistol grips too, I think they encourage some bad habits like trying to hold the nozzle out with just upper body strength.

Make sure you take a second to get the hose straight behind you. If you are going from a corridor into a room, make a bend so the hose is straight between the nozzle and wall. Sharp bends right behind the nozzleman render the back up useless. The back up can either pin the hose to the floor or lean toward the nozzleman with the hose. The push on the back method does nothing to relieve the nozzle reaction.

We pump our handlines for between 185 and 325 GPM. A technique that we use that works is as follows:

This example is for the hose to right of your body. Extend your left arm so that you can control the bail and the stream if necessary. Use the right hand to grip the hose tight to your body. As you get into position drop your right leg knee first down onto the hose and lean down on it. This puts you low to the ground and still able to control the stream. Your extended arm simply controls the nozzle, it does not fight the nozzle reaction. Someone will ask how you move forward with the line flowing. 2 possibilities. The reach of the stream in most cases allows you to control the fire allowing you to shut down and quickly move in to finish it off. Fog streams and lesser flows may not allow you that luxury. With our 2 1/2 @ 325 we have moved it by gating back to reduce nozzle reaction and move forward.

[erics99]

Like benlewis60,my department has the back up FF right behind the one on the tip.We brace a foot against the back foot of the leadman and push forward on the hose.If one person is doing all the work,they'll tire faster.This is supposed to be a team evolution when we do it correctly.You have to co-ordinate when moving but that can be dealt with by telling your partner what you are doing before you do it.
I don't know if you can use it in training but when you get out to"the fleet"you can use other techniques including a hose tool or other rope or web sling wrapped around the hose to give you additional leverage.Keep the nozzle about a foot or so in front of you and use the pistol grip if equipped to hold on.
We pump 100gpm at 100 psi and even that gives me trouble if the ground is muddy,slick with ice or snow,etc.

100 GPM? Is that your normal interior line? Pistol grips are junk. Makes it hard to move the stream around, especially left and right. Also hose straps are not needed. Back up man pins 2 1/2 to the ground a few feet back from the nozzleman with his leg. Just got a DVD feature a certain department out west. Everybody and their sister has a hose strap, yet 3 guys still fight with the 2 1/2. The reaction force wants wants to go down, let it, and use the weight of the 2 1/2 to help.

[NDeMarse]

I have started this reply four times now, but get too busy to finish it. Here are some photos that I took while doing a drill at the firehouse showing proper nozzle and backup operations.

The Nozzle FF:
Keep the nozzle as far away from you as possible, but still in reach for you to operate the bale. The further the nozzle is away from you, the easier it is to operate the line. Forget the pistol grips when doing interior firefighting. If you operate the line as shown in the photos it is easier to work the line on the ceiling, bend the line around a corner to hit a room or aim down to sweep the floor. The pistol grips require you to have the line pinned to your body and use your entire body to move the line.

When moving in, we advance with the line open. I like to advance with one leg extended (like shown) with my weight on my back leg. This is to feel for a floor in front of me. If the line starts to creep back towards your body, 1/2 crack the bale and yell "MORE LINE" to the back up FF.

The Back Up FF:
In my opinion, if you are doing your job, this is the hardest working position on the fireground. If the Back Up FF is NOT tired after the job, he/she didn't work as hard as they were supposed to. If the Nozzle FF is receiving ANY nozzle reaction, the Back Up FF should have worked harder.

The only reason that I can see the Back Up FF losing contact with the Nozzle FF is if they need to go get line in a stall situation (which also shouldn't happen if all Engine FFs are doing their jobs). The Back Up FF should ALMOST ALWAYS be in contact with the Nozzle FF. Your shoulder should be embedded into the Nozzle FF's back and your head up to look at smoke and fire conditions on the ceiling over the Nozzle Team.

My personal preference is to be on my knees like in this photo. I feel that I get more power like this. If I need more power to advance, I will extend my back leg and put my foot on the floor to drive forward. While you are doing this, the rest of your strength should have the line pinned under your arm and applying constant pressure forward to counteract the nozzle reaction. If you hear the nozzle 1/2 crack then you should instictively "hump" about two feet of line forward to the Nozzle FF BEFORE he yells "MORE LINE"! If he is 1/2 cracking the line, then he is doing it to gain control or put more line in front of him.

Don't forget that the Back Up FF is the Nozzle FFs eyes and ears. He should keep an eye on conditions above, behind and to the sides of the Nozzle Team. Before you pass a room, take a quick look into it to make sure there is no fire that you are passing. The Back Up man should also be providing the Nozzle FF with "positive reinforcement" as you move in. You would be amazed what a simple "Good Job, keep moving in!" or "Your doing great!" will do to a Nozzle FF's confidence, even if he has been to 100 fires.

Chris, I too had the same problem that you are having with Engine Company operations. The key that I found to the problem that I had was to take more, shorter advancement movements instead of fewer, longer movements. The longer advancement movements can cause you to lose contact with the Nozzle FF and lose balance. Both the Nozzle FF and the Back Up FF have to be on the same page and be making the same sized movements to advance. Remember, the Nozzle Team is a UNIT, not two individuals. If you lose contact with each other, it is almost impossible to remain in balance and keep the advance smooth. If you get out of synch, regroup and get back on the same page. The couple of seconds that you take to get regrouped will be made up when you start advancing the line more smoothly.

I will post more later, but I want to get this up before I don't finish again! :D

[MrIrons]

N DeMarse- Great post

[kennyv]

Nate, Thanks for your insight. I appreciate all of the information you provided and it will no doubt make me better at my job. Keep up the mentoring.

[NDeMarse]

Thanks guys, just repeating what was taught to me over the years. Nothing earth shattering, it just needs to be passed down, that's all.

Thanks for the compliments though.

Nate

[ChicagoFF]

Different guys have different opinions about the heelman. Many don't want you right on them. I know what my guys want but when I don't know the guy on the pipe, I'll usually stay off his back and take the weight. If needed I'll move up, but only if it looks like he needs it or asks.

[KingHippo]

Try to stay on the same side of the line- if you need to bail out, it's easy when everyone is in a row, rather than staggered. This also leaves a "corridor" on the other side of the line for the truck guys to get past.

And forget about the pistol grips- for interior work, they're largely useless. You want to have the nozzle out in front of you about a foot and a half. This makes it easier to move the nozzle around.

Also, don't fall into the trap of crowding the nozzle- We've all seen what happens when four or five people cluster around the nozzle. If the nozzle guy already has someone backing him up, stay at the corner, and feed hose. Try making an "S" shape on the ground with the hose- as the line straightens out, add more hose; this way, you won't be giving them too much line. Bring a hook- if conditions deteriorate, pull some ceiling, and make sure there's no fire above the guys on the nozzle.