We are our own worst enemy...

[BC79er_OLDDELETE]

From the story about the updated NFPA study:

In all, 15,545 fire departments -- just over half of the total in the system, including all departments protecting communities of at least 50,000 population -- were mailed survey forms, and 4,709 responded. These survey numbers are from a smaller sampling compared to the more complete 2001 needs survey. Officials said they felt the response rate "is sufficient for reliable results at the national and state levels, overall and by community size."

What in the wide, wide world of sports is a-goin on here?! 30% of the departments mailed surveys responded? Making less than 15% of the departments in the country involved? This is worse than the last two Assessments. No wonder we're not getting anywhere, no one is willing to admit we need help. Anyone wanting to challenge this study can point to the lack of a real response from the Fire Service to show that the needs really aren't there. From having worked with a ton of departments over the last 6 years I can say that the study is probably pretty accurate, but other than a handful of people that have had the contact I have can say the same. And that won't amount to much since that study is documented and my experience isn't.

We need to change our course before we flush the funding away completely from apathy.

- Brian

[neiowa]

A 30% response to a mail survey is a pretty good rate. Certainly enough for statistical purposes. I'd bet most NFPA mail ends up in the circular file unopened. It's been many years since I had a course in marketing surveys, but as I recall a 20-25% response for a single mailing (WHICH INCLUDES A POSTAGE PAID RETURN ENVELOPE) is a typical expected rate.

US 2000 census (mail portion with multiple mailings) only got a 65% rate and many people are afraid to NOT respond to it.

[BC79er_OLDDELETE]

Well I'd say that's great for a survey about your new home, needing sprinklers, a water softener, or even a lawn service. Or how well your new car is performing.

But I'd bet that if the survey was related a program that would buy you those things for 5-20 cents on the dollar, the response rate would be a lot higher. For the number of complaints I've heard about there not being enough money, we sure have a funny way of making that known. For how many people complain that "they never listen to us on what we need", how many of those people sent the surveys back? You can't complain about who is in office if you don't vote.

[ktb9780]

The recent podcast ( prior to your excellent one Brian) talked about that survey and mentioned that there was a poor response and that USFA was going to conduct another one utilizing any and all resources that they could. I immediatley volunteered my website as a districbution and collection point for that to Tom Herrginton and was asssured that once their own resources and databases were depleted that they would take me up on the offer.

Just as a matter of course, and I am by no means and expert at survey anaysis, it would seem to me that perhaps they need to "contract" this task out to a professional such as Nielsen or JR Powers and let them do a phone poll, which generally seems to get better responses since no mailing or "work" is entailed upon the respondee. :rolleyes:

[Bones42]

I'm from an under 50,000 population. Send me a survey. I'll return it.

[bsfd121]

Same here Bones, we could give 'em an ear full.

On the brighter side, if you look at the data provided in the article, the AFG is doing exactly what it was designed to do. Take care of basic needs. It is not meant to be the magic bullet to fix response capabilities for everything. I think the national media is playing the AFG up to be a grant program to address terrorism preparedness issues. It is not for this purpose. I know all of us try to look at equipment that is multi-funcitional when purchasing to address as many of these issues as possible. But the focus of this program is basic firefighting and emergency response needs. Terrorism is what the ODP Grants are supposed address.

Steve Graham
Boiling Springs F.D.
Greenville, SC

[Tonyg26]

same here Bones - am up in Woodbridge - not far from you....the more responses from an area will also provide a regional picture too.

one other note on the comment about surveys - many people feel a survey reply opens the door to a ton of marketing firms because the mailing/response list gets sold as a source of income. while i do not think this is the case here - maybe a disclaimer on the survey will alleviate any concersn that some may have about responding

[BC79er_OLDDELETE]

People had that same fear when I served my nerd penance at RadioShack in college. Everyone thought they sold the list too. When you sell nearly every type of electronic consumer product on the market, why would any business want to tell their competitors who their customers are?

Besides, the states are worse than anyone at selling personal information. Get a drivers license and suddenly the credit card apps come out of the woods. I registered my business a few years ago and within a month my mailbox was full of solicitations.

Of course the NFPA has a reason to sell the info, let manufacturers know who needs PPE, SCBA, trucks, etc, etc. But I can't see them bothering to sell that info since most manufacturers know that dang near every department in the country needs D) all of the above. Tracking purchasing history is more cost-effective than cold mailings. Us fire service types like personal interaction with the people we're buying stuff from.

[scottm207]

I think that the NFPA needs to move away from it's elitist stature. They need to be more accessible and in touch with the 75% majority of the Fire Service today (volunteers). I'm not trying to stir up the carreer vs. volly argument but if 75% of us are volunteer working with limited budgets it's hard to really appreciate an organization that caters to big money.

Most of the standards committees are made up of industry members and although they are open to anyone, how many of us can actually afford to go to the meetings and seminars regularly, especially where they are held.

I was ready to pony up and join the organization to be able to do research on the standards to bring my department up to speed. The $135.00 per year was bad enough, but if I wanted to anything more that just read the standards on-line (no copying or downloading) it was an additional $675.00 for that privilage! How many Chiefs of small volunteer departments are going to take anything from them seriously when that's how they treat us? Not that we should ignore them but I think that there is a disconnection here. :confused:

[BC79er_OLDDELETE]

Actually many paid departments are in the same situation of not being able to afford to pay for some of that stuff so it's not just a volunteer issue. many volunteer departments are in better financial condition because of being volunteer, i.e. no payroll. Some of the career departments I worked with had 80+% of their budget going to salaries and benefits. Hard to equip people.

On a related note for most of the codes that the Fire Service needs you can find the meaty parts by searching articles on web sites such as FH.com, Fire Engineering, Fire Rescue, etc, etc. Unless you have trouble sleeping that is. And right now you can read the codes online for free. They made all of them readable but not printable or saveable.

[Greenacres2]

And right now you can read the codes online for free. They made all of them readable but not printable or saveable.

Oddly, by reading them that way, i seem to have an easier time retaining the pith of the pertinent sections. In working on our AFG (brush truck) and one of our neighbors (SCBA) this year, i got pretty good at pulling out some of the salient points. Not being able to print a copy made me a better student. Wish i would have gained that skill 35 years ago!! ;)
earl

[neiowa]

I'll bet a survey concerning the destination of ANYTHING with an NFPA return address on it is reveal the 75% landed in the circular file within 60sec. "Here's something more from NFPA again. Selling some overpriced reports requiring stuff we can't afford".

More to the point. "The Survey". Postage paid return envelope? A reminder postcard in 2 weeks? A second survey at week 4 to those who have not responded? A phone call at week 6? If not they were NOT serious about gathering a substantial return rate (say 50-65%). Also sounds like they were oversampling career/paid depts compared to the total base (all depts over 50000pop). If AFG conducted the survey vs NFPA likely have much better response as they actually have something to offer (vs NFPA).

[scottm207]

My point was, I think the NFPA has alienated the small entities in the Fire Service and I think that that may be a factor in why the majority doesn't respond to them. I don't doubt that some/many career depts. may suffer the same budgetary constraints. But I'm a volunteer in a small rural dept. and I cannot speak from their perspective.

I do know through the statistics being published, that approximately 75% of us are volunteers and we're the majority. The majority not responding to the NFPA etc. I think that they could do a lot more to reach out to this majority that feels so alone and help us get the message out. So many of us are just trying to balance the demands of the service we love with jobs, life, families that we love.... :(

[BC79er_OLDDELETE]

I definitely agree with your last sentence, like most everyone else here I'm doing that very balancing act myself.

But if you're wondering why the NFPA isn't reaching out, isn't that what the surveys are? I mean we all say the fire service is underfunded and we need to keep the grants going, but we're not responding to those that are trying to help us. The NFPA is taking on this survey in order to show that departments are not meeting the standards. We don't need to know the codes to know that our bunker gear and SCBA aren't up to snuff. 95% of what you need to know about NFPA you can get from vendors, they have to know the codes. One of the reasons that the NFPA made everything readable online is so that the departments that couldn't afford to buy the books and CDs with the codes still had access to them.

I don't work for NFPA, so don't think I'm saying that to defend from the inside out. But they are trying to help the fire service get the information it needs to prove that the grant programs are needed. And since they don't sell equipment or apparatus, I'd say they're not doing it to make money. Like it or not they are the litmus test for the fire service against ideals. After all, without the NFPA codes what would we be using in our grant applications to back up our requests? NFPA is the entity that says 4 FFs per truck is minimum staffing, that PPE needs replacing on a regular basis, etc, etc. Without the NFPA we wouldn't have a leg to stand on to prove that our equipment and operations were unsafe. They may not be doing things exactly the way we want, but at least it's something. And we need to open those letters, and return those surveys.

Those against increased funding are going to take those numbers and say that the only departments that responded were the ones that need the money. A small minority by their counts. We need to stand up together as one and show that regardless of being career/combo/volunteer, rural/suburban/urban, high or low call volume that we are all on the same team. Different needs, but same team. The more fractured we are the less likely they are to continue with the funding.

Which also means join the organizations lobbying on our behalf. I've been meaning to join NVFC for a long time and finally did last week. Congressional Fire Services Institute & Caucus is another entity that we need to inform about our needs. Just because we are geared to be reactionary when the call comes in doesn't mean we have to sit back the rest of the time to wait for someone else to take care of us. In order to be PROgressive we have to be PROactive.

- Brian

[Bones42]

Again, as one who did not receive the survey and would have returned it, maybe NFPA (or whoever else) could also put the survey online so those that WANTED to participate could.

[scottm207]

Brian,

I agree that we should be returning the surveys we should be getting the would out to everyone. I just think that the majority of the fire service has a bad attitude about the NFPA and that's why the surveys and mailings go in the garbage.

It sounds like you're trying to do what you can and so am I in my department. 2 people among 1.1 million is a small start, although it is a start.

I don't know for sure but I would think that there's some way that the NFPA could reach out to the Fire Service and help bridge the gap, they have to be aware of this. We have to do our part too, without question.

We sent a copy of our AFG grant application to our Senators and Congressman for them to review and to ask for a letter of support. We also asked them to promote and support restoring the program back to what it was and beyond. I belong to the State Fire Association that lobbies for the State of NY.

We're getting ready to let our State representatives know our needs. I'd have filled out the survey too if it had come to me. Not everyone looks forward like you seem to and I try to, some of these folks need someone to reach out and tap them on the shoulder too. :)

[BC79er_OLDDELETE]

some of these folks need someone to reach out and tap them on the shoulder too

Some people need a blunt object applied repeatedly about the head and neck to get their attention. :D

And if it does start with you and me, that just means two less people. Bones is on board, and so a a bunch of others. The key is awareness of the issues. I would have sent in the survey too, or made sure it was, I've been on leave since November with the baby being born in January and grant season shortly afterwards. 250 apps takes a little time in case anyone is wondering...

Either way, there is a sense of apathy in the fire service still. We tend to accept what is happening because we're condition to respond and react instead of being proactive. So too many people think that the NFPA doesn't really care what we say. So I have to agree, they didn't let anyone know that the survey was going out. How hard is it to shoot an email to the WebTeam and get the story posted. 1+ million unique visitors a month, I'm sure someone is going to read it. There are only 32,000 FDs in the country, there has to be close to someone from every department on here somewhere. And if they don't want to do that much work, how about let the State FM's & Commissioners know. Who can pass it to the counties, towns, and so on. But even with that being done, we have to go out and rally behind those that are doing the work on our behalf. So not just the Congressional reps, but also every level of government. Get behind the national organizations like NVFC, NFFF, IAFF. Let them know that since they exist to help us out, what exactly it is that we need so they can go after it on our behalf. Communication is the key.

[EastKyFF]

A 30% response to a mail survey is a pretty good rate. Certainly enough for statistical purposes. I'd bet most NFPA mail ends up in the circular file unopened. It's been many years since I had a course in marketing surveys, but as I recall a 20-25% response for a single mailing (WHICH INCLUDES A POSTAGE PAID RETURN ENVELOPE) is a typical expected rate.
.

That ain't a bad rate if it's a representative sample. Trouble is, those most likely to reply would probably be paid departments who have a desk driver with time to do them. Vollie chiefs with full-time jobs and leaky firehouse plumbing will probably ditch it. So responses are skewed in favor of big departments.

(By golly, I am learning something in this Research Methods grad class!)

[quaker49]

Many years ago, I worked for a land-grant university and we did a number of a number of surveys. From what I remember the response rates of 8 to 9 % was an accurate sample and you wanted to get to 13 - 16 % for a good response.

Based on that I would say this is a good response - I can also not cite a source for this information so it could be urban or workplace legend.

There were some other ideas listed on how to get the surveys done - people will do anything for a free t-shirt. I would also suggest that a requirement for applying for an grant should be fill out a survey.

For what it is worth,

Sean

[rbh1957]

I would like to see what the responce rate was in Illinois? The State Fire Marshal had the survey on there web site, the Illinois Fire Chief's had it on there web site and I received a letter on the subject.

[TLFD40]

I just happened to be at the station when a Rep of DHS called and asked if we had received the survey that was mailed to us, the Chief looked at me and saasked if i had completed the survey..... What survey, i replied and he told the rep we never received it. DHS asked for our email, which the Chief gave them and they asked that we complete it and return it ASAP. To date we yhave not received it. Anybody have any idea what survey was sent out? :confused: