E85

[CaptainMikey]

I was just reading about E85 Flex fuel. I noticed that if you use e85 you will loose alittle bit on the mpg and your yearly costs will go up some $$$. But the epa rating goes from bad to great. And you can get a $2000.00 ONE time tax credit.

For instance my car I will see a aprox increase of $201.00per year. And my mpg will go from 21/28 to 15/20.


Is the change worth it?
Does anyone know how much it costs to change a vehicle over to flexfuel or how much more you will pay for a new car with E85?

[nmfire]

Change-over, more than is practical.

Savings, none.

Milage, drops into the pits

So, you spend more money per gallon to burn more fuel per mile than before.

Not worth it.

[DaSharkie]

E-85 is not the end-all, be-all for the world's gas problems, despite what everyone is saying.

Remember, tax credits are not the equivalent to what you get back. It only decreases your taxable income by that amount so that you are not taxed on $2,000 of what you made last year.

[EFD840]

I wouldn't spend money to convert an existing vehicle to E85, it just won't be worth the cost. New vehicles are a different story, they're being built E85 compatible with no added cost.

I have to slightly disagree with Sharkie. I think E85 and ethanol have a chance to change the face of the marketplace. What we gain is real, genuine competition. Consider a soda analogy - if Coke suddenly doubled in price a lot of us would start drinking Pepsi. Maybe it doesn't taste quite as good but it meets our need.

The fuel market is broken - too few players selling an identical product for which there is no viable alternative. E85/Ethanol changes that equation and restores normal market checks an balances. Hydrogen and widespread hybrids are decades away. IMHO, ethanol is the only hope for real relief in the next 20 years.

Even if the US jumps in with both feet, real competition won't happen tomorrow, and may not happen at all - if the oil companies sense a real threat they will simply artifically reduce prices long enough to kill it.

[MalahatTwo7]

Or do what they do with everything else that might be "competative".... simply buy out the rights at an exaggeratedly inflated price that no sane person could refuse, and then shelve it.

[nmfire]

I doubt E85 will ever cost less than gas. It isn't designed to be a more cost effective alternative. It is designed to make the envirnmentalists and EPA happy. If you want to pay a lot more to get a lot less but save a bird, then E85 is for you!

[Dalmatian190]

It is designed to make the envirnmentalists and EPA happy

No, it's not.

It might make the majority of the bleeting sheep environmentalists like it at first glance, but they'd throw a tizzy if they'd see the big picture.

It's designed to make the corn lobby happy.

While bio fuels have a good role to play, large scale conversion of the U.S. to bio fuels would have a profound environmental impact that would have them going completely crazy...if you think the "we need wind power! But you can't build that windmill because it will kill birds!" is bad, wait till they realize that replacement of the majority of U.S. transportation by bio-fuels like ethanol (highly inefficient) or bio-diesels (still not that efficient the way we grow it) would require every inch of cultivatable land in the U.S. to be put back under the plow, with intensive inputs of machinery and petroleum dependent fertilizers.

The nice thing is even a small swing on the supply side can have a major impact on prices; so a reasonable 10-20% supply from bio fuels is doable and reasonable; 50%+ would have the environmentalists screaming bloody murder from the amount of wildlife habitat being destroyed.

Brazil can do it.

Based on lower base needs; a better climate for crops more efficient than corn to make the alcohol (sugar cane); and they burn the Amazon down to plant new fields instead of buying petroleum-based fertilizers.

[EFD840]

Dal,

Have you read much about cellulosic ethanol? If even part of its prophets claim is true, it could be the key to getting that higher market share without planting corn on every green patch.

One fun fact about ethanol - you can make it yourself, which opens up all kinds of fun possibilities. A still is a still is a still. It doesn't care if the final product will be processed by a V-8 or a liver. A gallon for the car, a gallon for me. Another gallon for the car, two gallons for me. :D

[RLFD14]

Forget E85, I am converting both of my Diesel trucks to run on used vegetable oil from restaurants. Free fuel, runs better, runs cleaner, but yet retains ability to use either Diesel or cooking oil. Even Consumer Reports conditionally approved.

At $3 per gallon and the kind of miles I drive, I expect the conversion kit to pay for itself in about nine months, and anything after that is gravy.

http://www.greasecar.com/

http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/cars/new-cars/greasepowered-cars-606/overview/index.htm

[DaSharkie]

Dal, you have a point - the corn lobby has gotten subsidies from the twits in D.C. and they are the only one benefitting from it.

Add to that the energy costs to convert that much corn to ethanol and the pollutants created by doing so and it is roughly a wash - or so I have read. (understand that I am not a chemist so I have to go on dumbed down versions of the process from Popular Mechanics and others.)

Funny that you mention the wind farms. Every time someone wants to put one up for energy the environmentalists come out of the wood work protesting them. The Kennedys protest the Cape Wind farm in Nantucket Sound because of whatever reason. I have seen several other proposals shot down because 30 birds a year would be killed by the blades.

Somebody needs to get their heads out of their butts and get things right.

[Dalmatian190]

Have to say I have read up on cellulosic ethanol...

I believe last time I did the math (a couple years ago???) I assume I was using traditional grain alcohol numbers.

I know Brazil does use the stalks of the sugar cane to make ethanol, but I don't know if that translates into crops used in the U.S.

I certainly don't poo-poo all bio-fuels...like I said if they even replaced just 20% of our fuel needs that would be a huge help to buffer tight petroleum supplies; we could probably tweak another 10% out of fleet efficiency pretty easily within a few years. It's just they simply can't be a wholesale replacement; nor is it practical to see us rearrange our society to a substantially lower energy user within a few decades.

You have some environmentalists who talk about hydropower; then you have the environmentalists who want to blow up the dams because the fish can't migrate. We need alternative energy, but then you hear people whine about the great tragedy of cultural loss and making a million people move to flood the Three Gorges. Ah, maybe we're just a world full of guilt-ridden whining complainers.

The solution is in a diverse range -- wind, solar, hydro...and nuclear which for it's problems is the most manageable and predictable IMHO.

[dragonfyre]

I wouldn't spend money to convert an existing vehicle to E85, it just won't be worth the cost. New vehicles are a different story, they're being built E85 compatible with no added cost.

You can't spend anything to convert since it can't be done. The engine has to be manufactured to operate on E-85 and not lose the seals.

Advantages: E-85 is 105 octane compared to 87 for regular unleaded. Right now it's 10 to 35 cents per gallon cheaper that regular for more performance. Some places in the midwest it's around 60 cents cheaper. It depends on how close you are to the corn. GM says you get about 5% fewer miles per gallon but with the cost savings it should equal out. The biggest advantage is that it's cleaner burning and not dependent on foreign sources.

Disadvantages: Not readliy available. We just had the first E-85 station open in eastern PA in Lititz Lancaster County. Not exactly close to any teaming metropolis. Right now there are only 650 E-85 filling stations in the country compared to 167,000 gas stations.

The biggest disadvantage is that until the oil companies find someway to make money from it it will be hard to increase that number.

GM plans to make 400,000 flex-fuel vehicles in 9 model lines this model year. Mostly in the truck lines as it has for the past few years. Ford got out of the flex-fuel engines a few years ago when it pulled it from the Taurus.

It's not for diesel so converting to McFuel is a good answer. We have a customer who converted 2 years ago, brings the truck to us for service and we've had no issues with it.

More information can be had at: www.ethanol.org/e85.html or www.E85fuel.com or www.gm.com

[Dalmatian190]

Advantages: E-85 is 105 octane compared to 87 for regular unleaded. Right now it's 10 to 35 cents per gallon cheaper that regular for more performance

1) E-85 is 105 octane compared to 87 for regular unleaded.

Octane is not a measurement of performance or energy contained in a fuel.

It's a measurement of it's resistance to detonation due to compression. (Octane is also a chemical, and the Octane Rating is a scale relative to 100% Octane if I recall correctly)

Certain high performance engines, such as BMW*, need high octane fuel. The premium fuel doesn't produce better performance, the performance comes from the higher compression generated by the engine. Lower octane fuels would pre-ignite from compression (knock) in these high compression engines.

2) Right now it's 10 to 35 cents per gallon cheaper that regular

Thanks, in no small measure, to it's exemption from Federal Highway Fuel Taxes, and often state taxes as well.

3) for more performance

That's something I've never seen associated with Ethanol claims...

E85 has about 76% of the energy per gallon as regular Gasoline.

Which is why you see mileage in the same vehicle go down about 25% when you switch from Gasoline to E85.

On the positive side, you'll never need dry gas :)

---------
* The donation of a nice BMW 6 series convertible would always be appreciated :) I'll even settle for a 3 series.

[MalahatTwo7]

As was noted on the E85 fuels and the reduced price - methinks that is only because the oil companies dont have direct hands in it (inference taken from the previous posts) and reduced taxes. I suspect that will be the case until either the oil barons get their hands on it, or someone in DC decides that they can make more money with taxation.

Historical observation suggests that something is "cheap" only as long as it is either really easy to produce or there is not real interest in it. As soon as "John" sees an increase in sales, he's gonna boost his price a bit. Then "Bob" will notice and figure he wants his cut and so on and so on.

I'm no marketing geek or economic analyst, so the logic may not quite be there, but those are things that can be seen in other aspects of consumer marketing regarding supply and demand. Who knows? Maybe everyone will play nice and ...... ya right. :(

[EFD840]

You can't spend anything to convert since it can't be done.

I'm really not being a smart*****, but this isn't true. Just about any pro-Ethanol site you visit state that older vehicles can be converted but it is a technical violation of the clean air act.

If you google "convert vehicle E85", you will get a ton of hits from folks selling conversion kits. I don't know if the conversion kits work very well, I don't know why someone would want to spend money on a vehicle that ain't broke, and conversions may not be legal but they can be done.

I sound like I own stock in the stuff... I don't, I just want to see some real competition return to the fuel market.

[doughesson]

The other day in the Commercial Appeal,someone was quoted as saying that even if we used all the soybean and corn grown now for fuel production instead of food,it'd only reduce oil usage by 20%.
That's about what I expected,the greenies ****** and moan about how we need top use ecologically sounder fuels and when we start the switch,they find something else to complain about.

[dragonfyre]

I don't know if the conversion kits work very well

You get what you pay for.

[Dalmatian190]

Cellulosic Ethanol re-visited...

Ok EFD...I was surfing around tonight some on cellulosic ethanol...

Although I didn't find all these on one site...think about this "cycle:"

-- Harvest an oil crop like canola, soy, sunflowers; leaving just enough of the stalks as residue in the field for soil erosion control. Basically just chop the whole crop like you do silage.

-- At the processing plant, the seeds are seperated from the stalks by a shaker table, and then pressed for oil i.e. biodiesel.

-- Seed residue after pressing is combined with the stalks and processed to produce cellulosic ethanol

-- The mash after ethanol production is drained, dried, then burned to produce steam which drives an electric generator...and provides heat for the ethanol still.

-- Since we're just burning the pure plant residue, the ashes can be returned to the farm as a fertilizer to return trace elements.

I haven't seen anyone whose done a calculation based on squeezing out value from cycling product through multiple steps like this. It certainly would generate a lot more energy per acre then the figures I had previously seen / used.

[2ndgen]

I doubt E85 will ever cost less than gas. It isn't designed to be a more cost effective alternative. It is designed to make the envirnmentalists and EPA happy. If you want to pay a lot more to get a lot less but save a bird, then E85 is for you!

I don't know where you guys are, but here the E85 is less than half what gas is. When gas was $2.40/gal, E85 was $1.03/gallon. Ethanol mix is cheaper than any other gas by state law, but it is only mixed at 10-15% where E85 is 85%. The ethanol is generally 5-10 cents cheaper than straight gas!

[2ndgen]

I forgot to mention that in my 1994 S-10 and 1998 Plymouth breeze, it does not matter which fuel I run, ethanol or gas, I get the same mpg's. Obviously I haven't ran E85 in either vehicle since they are not set up for it, BUT, I am finding it hard to believe that E85 actually decreases mileage.

Some of you may have seen where Brazil is using sugar cane to make ethanol instead of corn and they are having great succes with it. HECK, they've been doing it for YEARS.

[Dalmatian190]

BUT, I am finding it hard to believe that E85 actually decreases mileage.

Pretty simple math. It has less energy content per gallon.

[2ndgen]

BUT, I am finding it hard to believe that E85 actually decreases mileage.

Pretty simple math. It has less energy content per gallon.

No actual day to day experience though? If it actually cost more to run than gas, the state would not use it in EVERY state vehicle for the past many years. I've talked with a few state employees and they did not notice a decrease in mileage!

[EFD840]

No actual day to day experience though? If it actually cost more to run than gas, the state would not use it in EVERY state vehicle for the past many years. I've talked with a few state employees and they did not notice a decrease in mileage!

Dal's right. Even the strongest E85 advocates admit it delivers less power than gasoline. That doesn't mean it costs more to run than gas, if it costs a lot less then you're still getting more energy for your money.

[ffexpCP]

Speaking of the environmentalists, I was pondering this thought: I remember doing a ‘fermentation experiment’ :rolleyes: in my dorm closet a few years ago. I also recall the large amount of gas it gave off during the process. If I’m not mistaken, this is CO2.

How long will it be until they start crying over the increase of greenhouse gasses caused by creating all of this ethanol?

[2ndgen]

Speaking of the environmentalists, I was pondering this thought: I remember doing a ‘fermentation experiment’ :rolleyes: in my dorm closet a few years ago. I also recall the large amount of gas it gave off during the process. If I’m not mistaken, this is CO2.

How long will it be until they start crying over the increase of greenhouse gasses caused by creating all of this ethanol?

NAH, Come on now! Everyone knows that there is no such thing as global warming! It's just due to the earths rotation changing speed therefore making such drastic changes in climates! :D :D :D

[2ndgen]

Dal's right. Even the strongest E85 advocates admit it delivers less power than gasoline. That doesn't mean it costs more to run than gas, if it costs a lot less then you're still getting more energy for your money.

I guess I owe an apology, I thought it was Dal that said since it is less effecient you'll end up paying more in the long run. Sorry I missunderstood you Sir. Please don't hate me :D





















TOO much anyways! On the other hand, I love Ethanol because I live in Iowa. :cool:

Carry on!

[bobbymurphy]

2ndgen-

I'm originally from Illinois. I even admit to putting on a Captain Cornelius outfit for my dad when Sen. Obama came to one of his gas stations to do a press conference on E-85. My dad used to run Qik-N-Ez gas stations out of central Illinois which were some of the first gas stations to install ethanol pumps in Illinois.

I don't know for sure about Iowa, but I know in Illinois the main reason E-85 is so much cheaper than Reg. is that there are little to no state taxes on it. Without the tax reduction it's still cheaper than gas, but if the tax credit were not there it would be more expensive to run ethanol due to the lower MPG rating. In the future the tax credit shouldn't be needed due to it being less expensive to produce at higher volumes.

Illinois requires there state workers to put E-85 in there vehicles as well. Suprisingly I doubt many of them have noticed a difference in the MPG between E-85 and reg. Most likely because they arn't paying for it. I'll admit, when I'm driving a city vehicle I could really care less what the mileage is or what the thermostat is set on the firehouse.

Bobbo

[2ndgen]

2ndgen-

I don't know for sure about Iowa, but I know in Illinois the main reason E-85 is so much cheaper than Reg. is that there are little to no state taxes on it. Without the tax reduction it's still cheaper than gas, but if the tax credit were not there it would be more expensive to run ethanol due to the lower MPG rating. In the future the tax credit shouldn't be needed due to it being less expensive to produce at higher volumes.

Illinois requires there state workers to put E-85 in there vehicles as well. Suprisingly I doubt many of them have noticed a difference in the MPG between E-85 and reg. Most likely because they arn't paying for it. I'll admit, when I'm driving a city vehicle I could really care less what the mileage is or what the thermostat is set on the firehouse.

Bobbo
I don't know for sure if it is the lack of taxes or a state law type of situation, in Iowa!

The thermostat in the firehouse is one of my BIGGEST concerns! It better be 70 or below when I get in there!!! :D

[CaptainMikey]

I was talking to someone today that said the reason why the prices for e85 in ks and mo is because of the low supply of the e85 and the high demand that is being put on it. Also it is more expensive to make it, but it will become cheaper to make it in the next 3 years. But once it is placed in each station, the prices will go down.

[CaptainMikey]

Well ive been doing some more research and since E85 has been in prodcution you might have noticed prices on many items going up, milk, and anything produced on a farm. Well the E85 production is taking corn away from the market and it is costing the farmers more to feed their livestock. also we have switched from importing oil to importing corn!!!!!!