FDNY Seagrave Problems

[NewJerseyFFII]

The FDNY union rep Steven Cassidy, said during a news conference today 10/10/06 that 250 Seagrave pumpers have flaws in there door latches. A firefighter fell from a pumper on the way to a fire call after the apparatus made a right turn, and has been out of work for 5 months.The city said that they have been using the same cab & chassis from Seagrave for over 20 years without any door latch problems, and they say that all firefighters must now wear there " SEAT BELTS " . Any member of the FDNY have more information on this story!..

[1truckie]

OK, lets get this straight. 5 months ago a city firefighter fell out of a cab and has been out of work since allegedly because of a so called flaw in the latch. Now i am sure that somewhere there is a report filed and i can be fairly certain that the flaw has been repaired. At least I hope so being it happened 5 months ago. Now don't get me wrong, maybe something did happen and i hope for the best for our brother, but to report that 250 apparatus has this flaw and now we are hearing about this now. I don't get it. Besides, since 5 months have past, I am fairly sure that there have been more Seagraves built other than the FDNY. Why are we hearing it from one person who happens to have availability to the media? Just a question.

[Taz288]

didnt the guy who fell out of the truck, fall out of an open cab MACK, not a seagrave...and the city has only city has only been using seagrave on engines since 92, scopes since 94...only the tillers and rearmounts before that

[FFFRED]

didnt the guy who fell out of the truck, fall out of an open cab MACK, not a seagrave...and the city has only city has only been using seagrave on engines since 92, scopes since 94...only the tillers and rearmounts before that


The incident that he is refering to involved a lower Manhattan Engine Co. Not the Ladder Co. 13 incident you are thinking about.

One has to look at the bigger fight we are having with out idiot out-to-lunch commishioner Mr. Magoo. This is one small effort by the union to point out how his policies are completely fugazi.

FTM-PTB

[Taz288]

ahhh...hadnt heard anything on the news about another FF falling out of the truck...I did see the teaser on the news but I didnt flip back in time to see the report

[blueflame]

This was posted on the UAF web site.

http://www.ufalocal94.org/press_releases/2006/pr_10_11_06.html

President's Message

UFA Press Releases

For Immediate Release: October 10, 2006

Life Saving FDNY Equipment Found Unsafe by Top Chiefs

The president of the union representing New York City firefighters today unveiled a never before seen internal FDNY safety report and surveillance video showing a Manhattan firefighter being ejected from the fire truck while responding to an emergency.

The high-level memo shows that that since earlier this year, the top brass at the Fire Department have known that a manufacturing defect found in virtually the entire FDNY fleet was the cause of this serious accident, yet they have not taken action to fix this problem.

Steve Cassidy, President of the Uniformed Firefighters Association said, "more than five months ago a New York City Firefighter was nearly killed while responding to an emergency. His injuries are not the result of a fire, but the haphazard condition of the FDNY fleet and Commissioner Scoppetta's insistence that response times are more vital than a safe arrival at the scene of an emergency."

Last December another New York City Firefighter was seriously injured when a door on an antiquated fire truck he was driving in popped open, ejecting him to the street, putting him in a coma. Following the incident with that truck, which was a relic from the Koch Administration, the UFA called for an independent investigation of the FDNY's procurement and bidding process for new fire trucks.

Mr. Cassidy continued, "When a firefighter is hurt in an accident responding to a civilian emergency it jeopardizes not only our lives but the citizens we are sworn to protect."

On May 2, 2006 Firefighter Thomas LaBara, responding as a member of Engine Company 7 was ejected while the truck he was riding in was heading East on Duane Street, turning onto Broadway in Manhattan. The door opened and Firefighter LaBara was thrown to the street landing on his back, with his skull striking the pavement.

Now more than five months after the accident, Mr. Cassidy is questioning why Commissioner Scoppetta has not taken corrective action recommended by the Department's highest ranking safety chief who lead the investigation.

In its investigative report, the FDNY's Division of Safety identified faulty door controls throughout its entire fleet of Seagrave pumpers. The problem it says is, "the door appears to be closed from the inside, but it is merely being held in place by the pressure of the partially closed upper arm latch into the latch pin. If there is a moderate amount of pressure applied to the inside of the door panel, the upper latch arm comes off the latch pin and door swings open."

In the memo to the Commissioner, Chief Allen Hay the FDNY's Chief of Safety said "Safety recommends that the exposed door latch mechanism in all Seagrave apparatus prior to 2006 be covered to prevent accidental depression of the upper latch arm into the half closed position." This would include fixing the door on virtually the entire FDNY fleet, dominated by Seagrave pumpers.

In the report Chief Hay goes on to detail that the manufacturer has in fact recognized this hazard, "Seagrave has redesigned the door latch mechanism starting with their 2006 apparatus and this new design will prevent the inadvertent closing of the latch doors." This means that nearly 100% of the fleet is unsafe.

The Safety Chief also called on the department to reinforce a policy requiring firefighting personnel to don protective clothing, prior to boarding fire apparatus for an emergency response and that all firefighters must use seat belts any time the fire truck is moving. To date, none of these corrective actions have been taken by the department.

Mr. Cassidy added, "One can only conclude that Nick Scoppetta is more concerned about response times than the safety of New York City Firefighters."

[LCFD302]

Ok, one question why after all the push lately for the use of seat belts is the City of New Yorks Fire Dept. not enforcing the use of them?

[SBrooks]

I thought the FDNY was big on dressing, going out and blocking traffic, and boarding the rig on the apron or in the street. Is this not so?

What's this about response times? What sort of policies are in place that encourage response times at the expense of safety?

[BHFF22]

http://wcbstv.com/

CBS News Video of FDNY Firefighter falling out of Pumper (http://wcbstv.com/video/?id=92375@wcbs.dayport.com)

[Bones42]

The Safety Chief also called on the department to reinforce a policy requiring firefighting personnel to don protective clothing, prior to boarding fire apparatus for an emergency response and that all firefighters must use seat belts any time the fire truck is moving. To date, none of these corrective actions have been taken by the department.

Mr. Cassidy added, "One can only conclude that Nick Scoppetta is more concerned about response times than the safety of New York City Firefighters." Do I have this right? Scoppetta is at fault because the door handles have not been corrected (which I can agree with) but the "FDNY" is not at fault for not following their own procedures of being dressed, seated, and belted?

Good Luck guys and stay safe.

[1truckie]

If Seagrave is building trucks with unsafe door latches, then why are they still in business? I mean, Look at it. The FDNY union has been on the forefront doing everything they can to derail the relationship with Seagrave. In my humble opinion, if the door latches on every single piece of apparatus built by Seagrave, apparently only in the FDNY are made to be unsafe, then something is missing. I have great difficulty understanding that because one (1) door popped open on an apparatus while responding and an investigation was conducted resulting in the findings that ALL Seagraves have faulty doors, then why weren't every single Seagrave truck taken apart and fixed? This is a very serious incident that should not be overlooked for one single second. Why after 5 months is this coming out? Who was hiding it? And why hasen't this reoccured if all doors are faulty. I mean if all the doors are faulty, then why only one door opened?

I know alot of FDNY guys and I just happened to be in a place last night where one of them were. I asked the question. His response was simple. These doors are opened and closed hundreds and hundreds of times a day, 24/7. He said that there are probably some worn parts that need regular maintenance and never gets it. This probably means some lubrication. What was the year of the truck in question, How many runs was it on since the day it was placed in service till the day this unfortunate accident happened? Does the shops regularly lubricate the door latches? Do the house members do it? Does it ever get done?

The union is always poised to Bash the manufacturer rather than get to the root of the problem. I cannot believe that a manufacturer like Seagrave or any of the other manufacturers who are in the business of building apparatus would even think of building 250 trucks with faulty door latches. Why has this report only come from the FDNY? Why hasen't DC or LA or Baltimore or Salt Lake or Louisville or any of the smaller Depts Seagrave has built for reported any of this? I am pretty sure that they all come off the same line. Why would Seagrave jeapordize the very lives of firefighters with this?

Sorry for the Soapbox, but I think there is much more than what meets the eye. There is and probably will be an ongoing problem with the upper management of the department and the union. This probably stands for most large unions everywhere.

As you can probably tell, I am a huge Seagrave fan and for over 100 years, Seagrave has been building trucks for the FDNY. Just look at the history of the FDNY or Seagrave. I am sure the company has been extremely proud to serve NY City all this time. I think it really showed after 9/11. Just look at the website on the 9/11 tribute. I believe they build the most solid truck out there.

I know everyone out there has pro's and con's about what product should be in there, but the real test is now on the forefront. I understand a large pumper order is on the desk and the spec has been opened up to allow more manufacturers to offer what they have. The FDNY has no-nonsense specs that will be strictly adhered to along with the 5 year bumper to bumper warranty. All manufacturers will be invited to bid. Maybe it is time to pass the Baton to another manufacturer and allow someone else experience the FDNY. I really feel bad for Seagrave. They have put up a good fight. I don't think there is any other manufacturer on the face of the earth that can repeat the relationship Seagrave has had all these years. Good luck!

[jlcooke3]

If the door latch is as faulty as we are led to believe, I believe their would have been a safety recall done by now. Also the problem of falling out of a moving apparatus is not a manufacturer problem. Its a firefighter, fire officer, fire department problem. If the firefighter had been seated and bealted then this tragic accident never would have came about. This isn't an attack on the brother's at FDNY it is simply the truth of the matter.

[EXCFDE4]

If there is a problem with the door latches, then they need to be fixed as quickly as possible. However, the way I see it, if the member in question had had his seat belt on, the whole freakin' door could have come off the truck and he would have stayed in the unit, and wouldn't have been injured. Seatbelts are meant to be worn, not sat on They are there for a reason. Use them, and things like this are less likely to happen. It's like any other piece of safety gear, if you don't use it, it won't do you any damn good.
All the safety equipment (and policies related to the use of such gear) in the world is useless if there is no enforcement. It's up to US folks, you and me and all the other brother and sister firefighters and officers to prevent these types of incidents.

[NewJerseyFFII]

I think that the FDNY union is trying to bash Seagrave Fire Apparatus for the lack of service the fleet gets from the FDNY maintenance shops!..

[1truckie]

Agreed FFIII. There is no question that Seagrave fell behind in service at the service center. Way to many trucks under that brutal 5 year warranty at the same time. You have post 9/11 right behind a large ladder order, then a huge pumper order and then more ladders. I think they got a run for their money. But they didn't walk away, they saw it and addressed it. It still isn't perfect, but then again find someone who is totally happy with service especially under that gun. The union has also bashed the shops as well as Seagrave for the OLD trucks still on the road. Incredible enough some of the trucks should be junked within 10 years, but they are still going. This is mostly because the contract says, I beleive, that trucks shall be front line service for a period of 10 years and up to 5 additional as a spare. Now if the trucks are not lasting that long because of the constant punishment they get and the shops are forced to keep the real bad ones on the road, then I beleive the City should look into a better replacemant schedule. Then you wouldn't have old beat up trucks to put band aids on them and the shops wouldn't get beat up with this. The conditions of the roads are not going to get better and the guys are not going to magically start taking better care of them overnight. This has been going on for years. I hear this all the time from the guys on the job. The truck is merely a tool and it is going to get used. An old Mack Tower Ladder gets put on the road and a man falls out going to a job and all of a sudden it's an unsafe truck because Seagrave hasn't fullfilled their obligation on new Towers that the city held up the order themselves as ransom because of the Service. But for years the open canopy cabs were acceptable.

Uh Oh, the soapbox again. Sorry. It's all Seagraves fault!

[Bones42]

Before the end of today, we will all be told we don't know what we are talking about because not one of us is from FDNY. ;)

[FyredUp]

Bones42: Before the end of today, we will all be told we don't know what we are talking about because not one of us is from FDNY.

Bones...

I am sure this was said with a grain of sarcasm intended but perhaps truer words were never spoken on this forum. Maybe some issues in this business are strictly FDNY issues due to the call volume and the condition of the city they operate in.

I would hazard a guess that the doors on some FDNY fire apparatus are operated more in a year than some FD's apparatus in a 30 year life span. Perhaps that may be part of the problem. That, and failings in maintenance and warranty issue correction.

Seatbelts are of course the answer to not falling out of the vehicle if a door opens. But, as with the nonsensical SCBA clamps we are forced to live with now, SOG's and safety rules have no teeth at the company level if the officer and the driver don't insist that they be followed.

FyredUp

[FD1976]

Is seagrave a union shop??

[firepiper1]

Is seagrave a union shop??

Yes they are.

Here is a televison interview with union president Steve Cassidy about the plane crash and the apparatus issue.

http://www.ufalocal94.org/video/ny1_10_12_06.wmv

[NewJerseyFFII]

The FDNY union president sould be putting the door latch blame on the city of New York and not on Seagrave Fire Apparatus. If the pumper is over 5 years old and the warranty is over then all repairs fall into the hands of the FDNY repair shops and not the Seagrave Sales & service in East Brunswick, N.J. !..

[1truckie]

I just finished watching the union president's interview on this issue. I still cannot believe that a serious incident like this occurred and was kept a secret for 5 months. There are thousands of firefighters in the city and nobody talked about this! I am to say the least astonished. They still have not acknowledged how old this truck was and what the condition was. The president is absolutely certain that this was caused by the manufacturer. All of the trucks in the city and one door pops open and all hell breaks loose! He is hell bent on the manufacturer being the sole responsibility and that ALL Seagraves are faulty. I am pretty sure the same latch on the city trucks are the same ones on all other Seagraves. Maybe I am wrong. Does anyone else know? Do any of the other manufacturers use this type of latch?
I was sure sorry to hear the firefighter who fell was pretty banged up and I hope he will be OK. I beleive this is probably going to get bigger before it is over. What a shame!

[k1500chevy97]

Just an FYI for this thread Engine 7 is a 2002 Seagrave

[kfactor]

Isn't it FDNY policy to wear seat belts? And if the union was actually concerned about firefighter safety, why didn't they and the membership put a push on ensuring seat belts are used to PREVENT a serious injury or death associated with someone falling out of a moving rig?

It is amazing to me that the focus is not on preventing seriou injuries or a fatality, but rather on using the incident to bash the FDNY administration or a fire apparatus manufacturer.

There was NIOSH report out a few months ago for a smilar incident I believe in Texas. Pretty short report - bottom line > wear your seat belt. Wasn't the IAFF a big supporter of having federal investigations such a NIOSH for FF LODDs? I didn't see any IAFF press conferences with the Texas incident - oh, that's right, the NIOSH report and incident didn't have anything to do with staffing.

Many of these serious injuries and LODDs could be prevented if the union was actually concerned about FF safety vs. using the issues to further other agendas. Pretty sad state of affairs.

[CpaceEng1]

Kfactor

It's not the Unions fault or the city's. It's your fault, they provide you with safety equipment. They can't make sure you always use it.THAT's YOUR RESPONSABILITY TO USE IT!!!!! That's why they put seatbelt in vehicles,and why they give you an SCBA, ect. Safety is everybody's responsability including yours.

Sure their a busy department, but when the numbers are broken down they don't have the bussiest station,Engine,or Ladder Co. in the nation according to the firehouse run survey. So that argument doesn't hold water either.

[FFFRED]

Just out of curiocity...how many of you have read Chief of Safety Hay's report? :confused:

FTM-PTB

[Bones42]

I, for one, haven't. But I'm willing to guess that somewhere in it, there is mention that all FF's riding on the rigs should be seated and belted. I'd be very surprised if that wasn't in it somewhere.

I know less than a dozen members of FDNY, and while I will agree that is a very low percentage of the department, we've talked in the past about this topic. Of those guys, they all said yes they were supposed to wear the belts. Of those guys, none actually did.

[FTMPTB15]

Did ya'll watch the video provided in this thread? It addresses seatbelt use regarding this incident. Watch it, it might answer some of your questions.

[FTMPTB15]

Here is a televison interview with union president Steve Cassidy about the plane crash and the apparatus issue.

http://www.ufalocal94.org/video/ny1_10_12_06.wmv
This is the video I'm referring to, not the news footage.

[Bones42]

Did ya'll watch the video provided in this thread? It addresses seatbelt use regarding this incident. Watch it, it might answer some of your questions. Yes, I did. Doesn't sway me either way, not that it matters. Guys apprantly aren't wearing seatbelts.

Should all the trucks get the latches covered? Probably, but don't want to have that cover hinder them in being able to quickly open the door either. Is it an indication of poor service from Seagrave? Not to me. I'm sure there are many other departments out there using the same truck and have not heard of a huge outcry anywhere. It's a tough spot, they could use something existing (seatbelts) or put the time, effort, money into the covered latch.

It's a shame that taking those extra seconds on the floor to get their boots, pants, and coats on is held against them by the city. :(

[FTMPTB15]

It's a shame that taking those extra seconds on the floor to get their boots, pants, and coats on is held against them by the city. :(
And... according to the video, that is why they are getting dressed in the rigs and unable to wear seatbelts. At least that's how I understood it... correct me if I misunderstood, FDNY guys.


Personally, I don't think we could compare the rigs from other departments, UNLESS they get used and/or take the same abuse that the FDNY rigs. I'd be willing to bet that some of those rigs open/close their doors more in 24 hrs than some other department's rig does in a month (or more!). I can't think of any other equally busy/aggressive department that uses mostly seagraves to compare them to. The area which they operate is very unique. I think that these factors probably contribute a lot to the door problem. Should Seagrave fix the problem? YES. Why? Because until they can prove that FDNY did something to create the problem, they should be willing to make their "customer" satisfied.

That's my .02 about something has nothing to do with me! :cool:

[Bones42]

With the 1000's of times those rigs are running, I'm curious as to how often these doors are popping open. Is it a common thing or a very rare occurrence?

[FFFRED]

With the 1000's of times those rigs are running, I'm curious as to how often these doors are popping open. Is it a common thing or a very rare occurrence?

We go to 1000s of fires and didn't need personal escape ropes (according to TVE and Mr. Magoo) until a cold January day in 2005 when a rare situation occured and now two brothers are gone forever because our Commisioner at the time and the following one didn't listen to our Chiefs.

Do we need to wait for another latch to fail before we correct this problem?

FTM-PTB

[jlcooke3]

Can anyone provide answers or explanations to the following;

1. Has the NTSB been notified of a potential need for a safety recall of all apparatus using this particular latch system?

2. If the department is pushing its members to respond in an unsafe manner (i.e. no seatbelts, dress enroute) why is the union not pushing for a seated, belted, and dressed prior to responding policy?

3. Who makes the latch? I doubt Seagrave makes the latch. Like most manufactures Seagrave probably buys the latch mechanism from a supplier. Why isn't the union pushing for the actual manufacturer of the latch to be held responsible?

4. And finally how on God's earth can you (as a representative of FF's) honestly sit there with a straight face and say that a seatbelt may or may not have prevented the accident? (Before anybody jumps feet first in it, I do realize that anything is possible).

[Bones42]

FFFred, not saying the latches shouldn't be addressed. I was just curious if it's a common or uncommon event.

[FFFRED]

FFFred, not saying the latches shouldn't be addressed. I was just curious if it's a common or uncommon event.

Hard to say. I know I've acidentally closed the top latch and was unable to close the door properly and had to release the latch to allow it to be properly closed. I'm sure it has happened but if no one falls out of the rig and it is your 7th run of the night tour and you have a million other things on your mind it will soon be forgotten.

I'm sure it has happened prior to this but because it didn't seem important at the time, no one mentioned it. Now we can all see what an important issue this is.

Remember Mr. Magoo had 5 months to address this and my BC just came around now and told us about this "safety issue" Once again...day late and a dollar short.(I'll bet you the deed to a certain bridge that crosses the East River that nothing more gets done unless the Unions press the issue.)

This is going to be just part of the never ending battle with these clowns until 2009 when Bloomsh*t is out of office or Magoo finally has that stroke that is way past due.

FTM-PTB

[Bones42]

Mr. Magoo I still love that. :D

[pumper8032]

Use a Japanese Cab/Chassis every day and then come back and talk to me!!