Riding on Bumper [Archive] - Firehouse Forums

TexasFireWife19

01-05-2007, 10:46 PM

Okay, I'm 'just' a fireman's wife, but let me see if I have studied up on the laws correctly. NFPA 1500 6.3.1 states " . . .standing or riding on . . . any other exposed position shall be specifically prohibited." To save space I left out much of the standard (you can find it on NFPA's website).

So, if I understand this correctly, why is it that so many departments paid and volunteer not only allow but REQUIRE their firefighter's to stand on a platform on the front of a booster truck, unharnessed, to fight wildland/brush/grass fires?

During the horrific, deadly wildland fires that the Texas Panhandle experience in March & April 2006, my husband was just so perched on the front of a booster truck while fighting fire. The fire truck hit some type of hole or something and threw my husband off the front. Luckily he was not killed or seriously burned, but he came close. He did receive serious injury to his shoulder, which look as if he will deal with for the rest of his life.

What can be done to stop the practice of riding on the outside of a fire truck? Who do we write to or contact. My husband has mentioned this to his superiors and now they are on a witch-hunt against him, threatinging demotion or termination (almost 18 years if service). So, obviously, we cannot handle this in house.

I appreciate your input and advice.

TexasFireWife19

KenNFD1219

01-05-2007, 10:54 PM

NFPA is not a law, only a reccomended standard-a FD or town may elect not to follow the standard.

Have you looked into motor vehicle laws for riding outside vehicles? I'm sure you could not do this on a private vehicle without getting pulled over.

TexasFireWife19

01-05-2007, 10:55 PM

Sorry for the typos above, any way, I forgot to mention the following:

After the Fire Chief ordered the truck(s) which were delivered without the front platform and railing, the Chief asked why the truck was not delivered as ordered. The Chief was told by the rep. from the manufacturing company that NFPA standards prohibit them to build a truck that way and they only build truck according to NFPA standard. Our departments solution . . . modify the booster trucks themselves. They had the trucks modified locally by someone who wouldn't know the difference as they don't build fire trucks. Therefore, it shows they had prior knowledge of the laws.

Thanks again.

TexasFireWife19

01-05-2007, 10:57 PM

NFPA is not a law, only a reccomended standard-a FD or town may elect not to follow the standard.

I did not realize that this isn't law. It should be.

Have you looked into motor vehicle laws for riding outside vehicles? I'm sure you could not do this on a private vehicle without getting pulled over.

Thanks for the tip. I will look into Texas laws, but if a fire truck is a municiple/city vehicle with exempt tags, would that mean it isn't private?

NonSurfinCaFF

01-05-2007, 11:37 PM

It is a practice that should be outlawed, unfortunately in many states it is common. Even the BLM, a Federal agency allows firefighters to ride on top of an engine in some areas.

A firefighter was killed doing this when I was in Texas during 1998, in the smoke his engine hit the engine ahead of it cutting him in half at the waist.

Not sure if Texas is an OSHA state of not but who ever handles occupational safety in Texas should be putting a stop to it, why they havn't I have no idea.

That is not a nation wide practice but I have seen it outside Texas, it would never be allowed in California. Pretty much the same tactic can be done using bumper mounted sprayers, a fairly inexpensive and much safer technique. Of course on my '98 trip I also saw that PPE was lacking as well on brush fires, many wore structure pants and boots, shirt & helmet optional.

TexasFireWife19

01-05-2007, 11:43 PM

Texas is an OSHA state. By the way, our guys use there full structure PPE when fighting brush/grass fires (bunker pants/jacket/boots, airpacks, helmets, etc.).

Thanks, I will look into both Texas and OSHA laws. I appreciate the input.

HEDQUIZZY

01-06-2007, 05:58 AM

[QUOTE=TexasFireWife19;755262]Texas is an OSHA state. By the way, our guys use there full structure PPE when fighting brush/grass fires (bunker pants/jacket/boots, airpacks, helmets, etc.).

your Guys wear Bunker Gear, Airpacks and helmets when fighting Wildland fires? Just wondering...

TexasFireWife19

01-06-2007, 11:22 AM

Okay, I goofed, they wear their bunker gear and helmets, not their airpacks. I thought they did wear their airpacks but my husband corrected me this morning. They do were their bunker pants/jackets/boots. They have been told to wear their airpacks but my husband said that it is nearly impossible to stand on the front bumper and wear an airpack. He did say that they are required to wear an airpack when fighting a dumpster fire (in addition to grass fires, we get a lot of dumpster fires around here).

I'm not not have I ever been a firefighter, but I think the standard that NFPA sets need to be law. You guys would be a lot safer if all departments followed NFPA standards. They are there for a reason.

Our Chief follows the standards that the Chief picks and chooses. In my opinion, the chief is out for numbero uno. This chief could care less if a guy is lost. I know my words seem extreme, but the chief has been quoted saying in a company meeting . . . "I feel bad for you guys, but me and my family come first." This was in reference to budget issues and not wanting to put the chiefs job on the line to do what was best for the department and the firemen. Like I said "numbero uno."

Thanks again,
TexasFireWife19

TexasFireWife19

01-06-2007, 11:34 AM

Texas is an OSHA state. By the way, our guys use there full structure PPE when fighting brush/grass fires (bunker pants/jacket/boots, airpacks, helmets, etc.).

Okay, Texas may not exactly an OSHA state, we "follow OSHA guidlines" but apparently it is not exactly law. Exactly Law? It is or it isn't. I will investigate further and get back to you on this. But it sounds like we follow laws/guidlines/standards when it fits within our budgets and the lives of our firemen don't exactly matter.

I know you guys and your families (as well as my husband and I) knew the risks and dangers when you signed up for the job. But lets not take advantage of that fact and require you to risk your life and limb any more than absolutely necessary. In fact, in appreciation for the risks you take day in and day out, we should make every effort to assure your jobs are a safe as possible.

Thanks again for letting me vent.

TexasFireWife19
(should have set myself up as NotReadyToBeAWidow)

Jay911

01-06-2007, 04:57 PM

My province (the "state of Alberta") finally put into place a law a few years back prohibiting people from riding in the back of a pick-up truck (etc) for any reason ... but specifically exempted firefighters performing their duties. :confused: I disagree with it, as I'm even MORE likely to slip and fall when I'm standing on a wet, slippery truck bed bouncing over uneven terrain, never mind lying down going over smooth pavement, which is why the law was established in the first place.

My department modified our brush trucks after seeing what another local department did. On their trucks, there is a short length of hose connected to a fitting on the right front corner of the service body, with a pistol-grip nozzle clipped to the body, within reach of the passenger door. The passenger (usually the officer) can then sit in his normal, inside seating position, belted in and all, and fight fire with the short handline. The only time either person has to leave the cab is to start the pump in the first place, when the truck first starts off into the brush.

I may have a photo of this - I'll have to look after I get home.

Dashman

01-06-2007, 06:17 PM

Correct me if I am wrong but I did not see anything about who told your
Husband to take that position on the front of the truck or did He do it on his
own?

NonSurfinCaFF

01-06-2007, 07:32 PM

Correct me if I am wrong but I did not see anything about who told your
Husband to take that position on the front of the truck or did He do it on his
own?

That was a common practice at least in the part of Texas I went to. Most of the departments either had a "cage" set up on the bumper for a firefighter to stand in or they had an old tractor seat mounted on the hood. The tractor seat was by far the most common.

BDVFD784

01-06-2007, 08:28 PM

Our older truck has a front bumper you stand on.It can be dangerous buy you can also get to the fire.The driver can also see the FF on the front.When we built a new truck we went to carrying the FF behind the cab.There is a box on each side to stand in.It is much safer.Here are some pics.

http://forums.firehouse.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=91 99&d=1139191350

http://forums.firehouse.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=92 16&d=1139277117

Jay911

01-06-2007, 10:26 PM

Here's the picture I promised. Looks like they didn't have the pistol grip nozzle on it when I snapped the shot, but you get the idea anyway.

http://www.jay911.org/firepics/8-bush-buggy-2a.jpg

Bowbreaker

01-07-2007, 12:08 AM

TexasFireWife,

Talk to the Texas Forest Service about your issues. They can help with the bunker gear issue also. If I remember right they had a program to help VFD's get wildland protective clothing (PPE's). From time to time I get e-mails from our State FMO that are forwards from a Texas Forest Service Employee and there was a reference last Spring, I think, to a program to purchase wildland PPE's for Texas VFD's. As cheap as wildland coveralls or jacket and pants are, I find it hard to believe any Fire Chief would allow his firefigters to use bunker gear on a grass fire.

The federal wildland fire agencies will not allow riding on a fire truck, even behind the cab like in the pictures provided by BDVFD784. We have spots behind the cab on several of our trucks but are only allowed to use them at fires on private land. If I had my way we would have bumper turrets and fight fire from inside the cab but we can not afford the $3500 + for each engine. As for riding the front bumper, there are some not too bright departments in this part of the world that still do it.

Glad your husband was not more seriously injured. Do not give up. Some chief are harder headed than others. You just have to get the right people to help.

Brad

PS: You also might try the department's workers compensation insurance company. You should be in contact with them anyway on the injuries suffered.

mtnfireguy

01-07-2007, 03:57 AM

Riding on the front of a wildland rig either on a platform or I have seen some with a seat (usually an old tractor seat) mounted on the front, it equivalent
to a placing a hot dog on a stick and putting it in the fire.

Bushwhacker

01-07-2007, 06:49 PM

TexasFireWife19

01-08-2007, 07:02 PM

Dashman -- although department 'written' policy quotes NFPA standards, our Chief has the men trained to (in the chief's own words) "perch on the front of the truck like a hood ornament" to fight grass fires. The verbal and actual policy of the Chief does not follow the written policy of the Department.

mtnfireguy -- I love your terminology - my feelings exactly!!!

Bowbreaker/Brad -- Thank you for all your information. I will try to get a pic for you to look at. Trust me, we will hang in there to the highest level!!!

Everyone else -- thanks for your help and info./pics. Keep 'em coming!

I personally think ANYWHERE on the outside of the truck is completely unsafe! Your jobs place your lives at risk enough without stupid, irresponsible practices added on top of the already there dangers.

God proctect you all,
TexasFireWife19

I will post a pic as soon as I can get one.

neiowa

01-11-2007, 01:32 PM

doughesson

01-11-2007, 04:22 PM

What can be done to stop the practice of riding on the outside of a fire truck? Who do we write to or contact. My husband has mentioned this to his superiors and now they are on a witch-hunt against him, threatinging demotion or termination (almost 18 years if service). So, obviously, we cannot handle this in house.

I appreciate your input and advice.

TexasFireWife19

Nobody's supposed to be riding on bumpers or back steps from what my training has taught me.
I agree with those that say a brush rig should have a gate or strap across where a hoseman is riding to reduce being thrown from the truck.Maybe a belt to physically secure him to the rig as well?We had two seater Jeeps with a 50 foot reel of 1" hose and a garden hose rigged between the seats so no one had to ride anywhere but under the roll cage,in a seat and belted in.
Anyone trying to punish someone injured by riding the bumper is probably trying to keep his own butt out of trouble for letting it happen.My old volunteer department had a policy of firefighters first,and putting out the fire second.You can always buy a new house but firefighters are more expensive to come by,especially if you want one that knows what he's doing.

dday05

01-11-2007, 08:31 PM

Our Chief follows the standards that the Chief picks and chooses. In my opinion, the chief is out for numbero uno. This chief could care less if a guy is lost. I know my words seem extreme, but the chief has been quoted saying in a company meeting . . . "I feel bad for you guys, but me and my family come first." This was in reference to budget issues and not wanting to put the chiefs job on the line to do what was best for the department and the firemen. Like I said "numbero uno."

Thanks again,
TexasFireWife19

I can't believe a Chief would say something like this. If this is true I'd be looking to replace the current chief. I worry sick about my people all the time. As far as riding on the trucks, never seen anyone ride on the front bumper. I've seen people ride in the back of the truck holding on to the headache rack and spray water. How fast was the unit going when the incident happened?

dustinlevengood

01-12-2007, 06:00 PM

I had heard rumors of stuff like that but never actually saw it, now that I have all I have to say is "WOW". CDF still has a couple of open cab fire engines, the model 4 and 5's with the penalty box in the back and the Ford model 9's but they are rapidly being phased out, and as far as I've seen we dont do any firefighting from these open area's.

TexasFireWife19

01-13-2007, 10:37 PM

Go to the city council and have them adopt the NFPA standards you like as law. Until then they are just suggestions.

The Chief doesn't care if you men are killed. That's pretty strong. Perhaps it's actually mission first? IE. put the fire out before it spreads to those houses?

How about getting your friends together and doing some constructive improvement work. Do the fund raising to put remote monitors on the wildland trucks. Or rebuild and install a gated platform behind the cab for the hoseman.

Every FF is a safety officer. You husband is also responsible for safety. Sounds like you're just looking for someone to sue.

Definitely not looking for someone to sue. I just want my husband and the rest of the men as safe as possible. And yes, I do feel that the Chief doesn't care . . . you don't know our Chief. If you did, you would understand. As a Captain, yes my husband is responsible for safety, including his own. However, he is not allowed to disobey a direct order. And, when he has tried to bring this to their attention away from a fire scene, he is repremanded for it.

Maybe you have never worked in a small town 'professional' department. The politics are unbelievable unbearable to say the least. I would hope that the policies could be enforced without a law suit. However, if there were one, it would be for policy change or for existing policies to be enforced. I would rather have my husband alive than any amount of money. Maybe you can understand that.

By the way, I do like your idea of raising funds to improve our trucks. However, our Chief doesn't really have a history of spending Federal Grant monies like directed to and has gotten in trouble for that. What would make us think that the money would actually be spent on fixing the trucks? And yes, I do have an axe to grind with the Chief. But like I said, you don't know the Chief.

Thanks,
TexasFireWife19

TexasFireWife19

01-14-2007, 01:57 AM

Okay, here is a picture of where they stand to fight wildland fires. Notice there is no side railing, seat, strapping, harness, or any of the like. Litterally, they stand on the front bumper on the passenger side in their structural bumper gear (helmet, bunker pants and jacket). They use the hose that is curled up on the passenger side of the bumper. I am not sure how fast they are traveling but being on rough terrain, I wouldn't think it would be very fast. They guy that was driving the truck told me that he had thought he had ran over my husband and that the smoke was so thick it was extremely hard to see well enough to even find him. Luckily my husband was able to get up to get back to the truck and climb back on the bumper so that they could get out of there as the fire was raging towards them. I know they both could have perished, because that driver would not have left without my husband.

Sorry I had to blur out the identifying information. There is enough retaliation already without anyone spotting this on here.

Thanks again & looking forward to hearing additonal comments after you look at the picture.

TexasFireWife19

dday05

01-14-2007, 09:35 AM

I don't want to be harsh, but your husband being a Captain and all needs to stand up for what he believes in, and if that includes him ,telling the chief that this is unsafe practice so be it.Your husband also needs to watch out for his people (fellow firefighters) as well as himself.The number one thing on the fireground is YOUR OWN SAFETY AND YOUR FIREFIGHTERS SAFETY. And if the Chief doesn't like it tough s#@^. I still can't believe this Chief acts and performs the way he does. After all he's responsible for everyone on the fireground. Why haven't we heard from your husband? It seem like were missing a piece of the story or maybe I'm wrong. Brush trucks where you're from and where I'm from are alot different. We use pick ups and jeeps etc. We don't have flat ground around here to use equipment like in your photo. And after viewing your pic it and what you typed ,maybe they were going to fast and in some place where they shouldn't have been. Bottom line is if I was told to stand on the front bumper I'd tell them to FO. That really is'nt to good of a place to stand in my opinion. Like you typed the "driver couldn't see him from the smoke" so what happens when someone does fall off and your in to much smoke along with the size of that truck it wouldn't be hard to run some one over. Take care.

fire0099881

01-14-2007, 12:43 PM

is it just me or does it look like there is a remote operated mini deck gun mounted on the front bumper? if so why don't they use that instead of having someone stand out there and endanger there lives with trying to hold on and spray water at the same time.

TexasFireWife19

01-14-2007, 01:13 PM

dday05 -- My husband is trying to do something about all of this. The reason he isn't posting on here is because he is in enough hot water (so to speak) as it is. We began talking to some of the other men and their wives about getting something done and they have now been directed by the Chief NOT to talk to either of us, especially when away from the department. I AM NOT JOKING, THIS IS NOT A LIE AND I AM NOT EXAGERATING HERE. Our town's Chief tells you what you (and your spouse) can and can't do/say whether you are on duty or not (whether you work for the dept. or are married to someone who works for them). Anyway, if my husband were to be found out posting on here, the Chief would fire him. The Chief can't legally fire him for something I do, not that it wouldn't be tried. Oh, the land around our section of Texas Panhandle is extremely flat, all 3 of our booster trucks look like the one pictured and that is what they used to fight wildfire.

fire0099881 -- I asked my husband and he called it a turret gun. He said that they were told (by upper rank) that the turret gun uses too much water, so don't use it. Is it just me, or don't you need to use a lot of water to put out a fire? He did say that he agrees that the turret uses up the water too fast. I don't know if it has an adjustable valve or not, I will try to find out from my husband when he gets home.

I am sorry that my posts seem to all be directed at the Chief. I do feel like the Chief is a major part of the problem. But my direction here began as and really is about the safety of the trucks and the dangers of the practice of standing on the front bumper. So, I will try to keep on focus here.

Thanks again!

LVFD301

01-14-2007, 01:24 PM

Fact time.

1. At best, the Chief is opening himself, and his department up to civil suits, espically if someone is injured, or hurt.

2. At worse, the Chief is opening himself to criminal charges of Manslaughter if someone gets killed.

3. Telling the Chief, or whoever gives the order to stand on the bumper to FO is wrong. By all means, decline to do it. Refuse to do it. DON'T DO IT. But don't do it properly.

4. If everyone declines/refuses to do it, it won't happen. If the Chief gets rid of all the volunteers because they refuse to do it, then he can do it himself. Paid department? If so, is the job worth it?

Each and every one of us is a Safety Officer. YOU are responsible bottom
line for your safety.

5. How do you get the Chief replaced?

6. Riding on the outside of the cab is wrong. Simple. To the point. The exception would be in afully enclosed space with PROPER seat belts.

7. Bluring out the details? Come on. You started it up here, and if you
don't think that the truck picture is enough for someone to ID.... I know
if they were a neighboring department, and insisted on using that technique,
I would take them off my Mutual aid list, at least for brush fires. There is an
extension of liablity I won't assume.

Geez, can we all not use the exercise of walking that hoseline out there?

TexasFireWife19

01-14-2007, 01:48 PM

This is a 100% paid department, no volunteers, but a lot of volunteer departments do come to our aid and I think they all use the same practice of standing on the front bumper believe it or not. As to whether it is worth the pay or not, he has 18 years of service in and only 2 to retirement. We are trying to stick it out, but I told my husband that I would rather have him with me without his retirement check than have his retirement check without him because he got killed. I knew the risks when I married him, I just don't like unneccessary risks added to the equation.

And, yes, there is probably enough information here to figure out the department and who my husband is if you try hard enough (especially if you see the picture). I don't even know if anyone from our department visits this site. But, I choose to try to be a little discrete so as not to take any unneccesary risk of retaliation as we have suffered in the past.

I'm not even sure what the proper procedure for fighting a "brush fire" is. I just didn't think that riding on the front bumper was proper. This department for the past 18+ years has only fought the wild fires in this manner. They teach the men to fight the fires by standing on the front bumper. They are not taught any other method of doing it.

dday05

01-14-2007, 03:23 PM

So if your husband and his fellow firefighters have been riding on the front bumper (which I think is complete bull sh#@) of the brush truck for 18 years how comes it's an issue now? I would've been doing something a long time ago. It's unfortunate it takes some one getting injured to realize doing this was and is a hazard. Take care.

NonSurfinCaFF

01-14-2007, 04:26 PM

Guys, this is a common practice in many parts of the country, its not a good practice but it is done. Have any of you ever tried to stop a practice that every department around you "has always done that way?" My guess as to why it has become an issue after 18 years is because somebody had a close call and had their eyes opened.

Unfortunately the comment about not using the bumper turrent sounds common too, buy a $5000 tool to provide a safer environment for your firefighters then say they can't use it. I've seen many people who focus on GPM not understanding the concept of application rate. (If I put out 10 feet of fire line in 1 minute using a 10 gpm nozzle and you put out 10 feet of line in 10 minutes using a 1 gpm nozzle who is putting out more fire?).

LVFD301
I agree with you on the walking beside the truck, it works and the firefighter on the ground determines the speed. It also allows a better wet line since they are on the ground and can easily stop the truck to work an extra hot spot. Unfortunately many localities won't get off the truck.

I have had the oportunity to fight fire in multiple states most years, I've been to most of the western states over the years. You would be stunned by the way some places fight fire, particularly if you work in California.

TexasFireWife19

01-14-2007, 05:02 PM

So if your husband and his fellow firefighters have been riding on the front bumper (which I think is complete bull sh#@) of the brush truck for 18 years how comes it's an issue now?

You think it is complete bull sh#@? Is this your way of calling me a liar? Tell you what, make a few phone calls to the Texas Panhandle Fire Departments and ask around. You will find it is quite common practice around this part of the country. Not only has our department practiced this procedure for the 18 years my husband has been there, but for many years before then. My husband getting seriously injured IS what made it an issue for me.

I would've been doing something a long time ago. It's unfortunate it takes some one getting injured to realize doing this was and is a hazard. Take care.

I didn't really know the whole process until my husband was thrown from the truck. Then I started asking questions. My husband has never been the type to bring things home. We have small children and he doesn't like discussing things that could scare them in front of them.

Unfortunately, more often than not, someone does have to get injured before things can get changed. I wish it weren't true, but it is. It took a lot of people dying and getting hurt in car accidents before seatbelts were even ever invented . . . and it was even much later before they became legal requirements. I am sure concerned family members of those who were hurt/killed had something to do with legislation that got things changed.

That is my goal here, to get things changed. I was/am looking for advice on how to get that done. Suggestions, which some really good once have given here, on how to do that are greatly appreciated. Constructive critisism is accepted and appreciated as well. However, being told that I am being anything but honest is not called for, as you do not know the facts.

Thanks to everyone who has posted positive/constructive suggestions. I am looking into Texas state laws, OSHA laws, NFPA standards and the city and department regulations. I will then contact the city commission/counsel and see if some changes can be made from there. If not, we may seek legal counsel, but as I said ... for procedure changes, we are not looking for financial gain. The city/department policies are actually in place to follow NFPA on this specific issue . . . they are just not followed.

Even if my husband decides not to stick it out to retirement and leaves the department, I will not drop this issue. I would hate to have to face another man's wife after her husband is thrown from the truck, because I dropped it once my husband was out of the picture. I don't want to be a widow or hold any blame if/when someone else becomes one. I will not rest or until changes are made.

May the good Lord protect all of you as you are out there protecting us.

TexasFireWife19

dday05

01-14-2007, 05:18 PM

You think it is complete bull sh#@? Is this your way of calling me a liar? Tell you what, make a few phone calls to the Texas Panhandle Fire Departments and ask around. You will find it is quite common practice around this part of the country. Not only has our department practiced this procedure for the 18 years my husband has been there, but for many years before then. My husband getting seriously injured IS what made it an issue for me.

I didn't really know the whole process until my husband was thrown from the truck. Then I started asking questions. My husband has never been the type to bring things home. We have small children and he doesn't like discussing things that could scare them in front of them.

TexasFireWife19

Why do you think I'm calling you a liar?? The comment is my thoughts on having people ride on the front of the truck. It's something called my opinion. At no time did I say you're a liar.So take it as it is. Does this dept have a local??

TexasFireWife19

01-14-2007, 05:25 PM

Why do you think I'm calling you a liar?? The comment is my thoughts on having people ride on the front of the truck. It's something called my opinion. At no time did I say you're a liar.So take it as it is. Does this dept have a local??

Sorry, I missunderstood what you were calling bull. I thought you were calling my story bull. I apologize for taking it personally. I agree with your opinion that the procedure of riding on the front bumper is bull, like someone said in an earlier posting . . . kind of like sticking a hotdog on a stick and into the fire. I agree to your right to an opinion, I just miss-read that you thought that it was bull that they had been practicing this for so long. If you read your words, I am sure you will see how I came to my conclusion. I apologize for my error.

And yes, the department does hace a local. I am looking into what they can or are willing to do.

TFW19

Jay911

01-14-2007, 05:29 PM

TexasFireWife19, don't get too tied up in knots over the clowns on this site who have nothing better to do than give you grief over your efforts to make something happen. There are some people here who are not content unless they're stirring the pot, so to speak.

Keep at it. Your chief sounds like a total tool. Someone who doesn't have the safety of the people under him, as his #1 absolute priority, has no business being in charge of a bus stop, let alone a fire department.

I find the concept of not using the bumper turret because it uses too much water pretty silly, but this isn't the place for that kind of argument. You can lower the flow rate and/or pressure of such a device, if necessary, but the likelihood is, with proper training and operation, it would be the most effective way to fight a brush fire anyone has ever seen.

You're going about this the right way. Don't let anyone - especially people here - give you a hard time for trying to be safe.

dday05

01-14-2007, 05:30 PM

That is my goal here, to get things changed. I was/am looking for advice on how to get that done. Suggestions, which some really good once have given here, on how to do that are greatly appreciated. Constructive critisism is accepted and appreciated as well. However, being told that I am being anything but honest is not called for, as you do not know the facts.

Thanks to everyone who has posted positive/constructive suggestions. I am looking into Texas state laws, OSHA laws, NFPA standards and the city and department regulations. I will then contact the city commission/counsel and see if some changes can be made from there. If not, we may seek legal counsel, but as I said ... for procedure changes, we are not looking for financial gain. The city/department policies are actually in place to follow NFPA on this specific issue . . . they are just not followed.

TexasFireWife19

I do hope you get things changed. Firefighters getting injured or killed is'nt something anybody wants to read about! As a fact it's very disturbing to me when you have accidents like this and other incidents that are preventable. I do know we have a dangerous job but some things require some common sense. Have you spoken to the safety director of this city yet or is the chief in his/her back pocket? If you want pm me.Take care

k1500chevy97

01-14-2007, 06:43 PM

We still ride on the rear end on wildland responces. Is it safe no but it is safer than riding on the front imo.
We do have a harness and saftey rails but if the rig flips over we are screwed.

http://photos.imageevent.com/k1500chevy97/firepictures2/websize/1_DSC00044.JPG

LVFD301

01-14-2007, 08:47 PM

If it is not safe, and there are safer ways to do it, why do you continue to do it?

dday05

01-14-2007, 11:03 PM

Jay911

01-14-2007, 11:20 PM

I should hope your not talking about what I've wrote.

Not necessarily; my comments refer to absurd comments such as "you must be looking for something to sue", "it's your husband's fault for doing it", etc., instead of helping this lady find some solutions to her issues. And the comments refer to a generalized problem with the caliber of contributors to the Firehouse forums as of late - not necessarily in this thread, but in others.

I have wanted to say to TFW19 for some time what I said about not letting the inflammatory comments get to her. I posted it today because this is when I had time to make that post. In my opinion, people who aren't going to offer some kind of solution, partial or full, to her concern, should stick to lurking.

If you wish to discuss this further, do so in a PM, please; I won't continue off-topic discussions in this thread.

dday05

01-14-2007, 11:34 PM

Jay911, Just making sure! It's unfortunate ,like I've said before that these kinds of incidents happen. It's very upsetting and I just can't get over how this chief operates. Wouldn't you think one your people getting injured would throw up a red flag? Then you'd question yourself maybe this is'nt to good of an idea to be operating this way.

I will say things are done out west different then here. It's interesting though. I still don't understand why the driver didn't stop or get out of the area especially when he couldn't see his fellow firefighter.Do you know where I'm coming from? Take care I think I have the pm figured out and I'll attempt to pm you.

skvfd5

01-15-2007, 12:45 AM

TFW19,

Try having your husband get the training officer to have a basic wildland fire fighting course put on for the Dept. The Texas Forest service would be a great contact for just such a class. This should include the following classes S-130 Basic Firefighting, S-190 Fire behaviour and I-100 Basic ICS. These are the basic classes that all state and federal wildland fire fighters take to start out with.

Not sure of what dept. or where your located, but I worked with the Rural fire coorinator in Childrees last spring and he should be able to get you headed in the right direction for the training. His contact info is Richard Gibbs 940 937 2286 office 979 220 0577 cell

Hope your husband was not seriously hurt.

Stay Safe
Homey

Bowbreaker

01-15-2007, 01:47 AM

TexasFireWife,

Your husband's Chief obviously has no clue about wildland firefighting. That is a nice engine but it is not much for going off road on any fire. The rail on the bumper can't be much over knee high to a lot of firefighters. It has got to be terrifying to ride that bumper on smooth ground let alone across some rough pasture.

I understand about conserving water but the nozzle on the turret could be changed to as low as 15 gpm. If that is too much water put a washer with a small hole in it behind the nozzle. It works. Also from talking to firefighters that use bumper turrets, it helps to have the turret up so you can see where it is aimed when you first are learning how to use it on grass fires. Wasting water is a training issue at the most, you should't have to sacrifice safety to conserve water. Good luck.

Brad

hwoods

01-15-2007, 10:32 AM

LVFD301

01-15-2007, 01:59 PM

Not necessarily; my comments refer to absurd comments such as "you must be looking for something to sue", "it's your husband's fault for doing it", etc., instead of helping this lady find some solutions to her issues. And the comments refer to a generalized problem with the caliber of contributors to the Firehouse forums as of late - not necessarily in this thread, but in others.

.

I guess I am a bit slow, but where is the post that said those things?

dday05

01-15-2007, 03:16 PM

I guess I am a bit slow, but where is the post that said those things?

I remember reading the quote but I can't remember who wrote it.

TexasFireWife19

01-15-2007, 05:39 PM

I guess I am a bit slow, but where is the post that said those things?

I think that Jay911 was referring to post #19 (page 1 -- see below) by "neiowa" that basically refers to my husband holding responsibility and then specifically says that "it sounds like we are just looking for someone to sue".

Every FF is a safety officer. You husband is also responsible for safety. Sounds like you're just looking for someone to sue.

As I said in my response to "neiowa", the only reason we would look at a law suit is for changes in procedure . . . IF we can't get the changes outside of court.

LIFE IS MORE IMPORTANT THAN MONEY ANY DAY . . . EVERY DAY! What good would any amount of money do me and our children if we didn't have my husband/their dad? I would rather be flat broke with him than the richest woman in the world without him. As I am sure most "firewives" would agree.

Thanks again. I really feel like I've gotten some good suggestions.

Oh, . . . skvfd5 . . . thanks, I know exactly where Childress is. I think they even came up here to help out with the fires in March/April 2006 (they may have had some of their own). Childress isn't too far from here. I will pass your information on to my husband and see if we can get them to help. They are quite a bit smaller than our town, but sounds like they may know what they are doing.

God bless and protect you as you protect us.
TFW19

CaptOldTimer

01-16-2007, 04:26 PM

This has been an interesting reading experience........ Glad I don't have a problem like that. Our situation here pretty much dictates that almost all Firefighting be done on foot. (Not a lot of open grassland, mostly Forest) And, most of our Wildland Apparatus consists of converted 4X4 Pickups, with no means of riding on the outside. One thing that did get my attention though, Structural Gear on a Brush Fire: In the incident that started this thread, it sounds like wearing structural gear may have prevented a more serious injury. Just a thought, since I do not wear it myself, and normally advise others against it as well. Wildland PPE is almost non-existant in this area, partly because the entire Fire situation is quite different. Fires are in accessable locations, and are low, slow moving, surface Fires in Hardwood leaves and low brush. But, back to the main Topic: My personal opinion would be to move toward a "Unsafe Workplace Complaint" to OSHA, preferably thru the Union. One last point. Fire Truck Manufacturers build everything to NFPA Requirements because they have been burned over the years by lawsuits over building "unsafe" Trucks. NFPA may not be a Law, but Lawyers love it.

I have to agree here with Harve. A lot of attention on this subject. As Harve said, the best is to walk on the ground. No one in my former dept was allowed to ride on the front bumper, less they would be in the street for several days. Or for that matter on the outside of any moving piece of apparatus.

NFPA is not the law. The law is what the city, county or the department has etched in stone! Laywers sure love what NPFA has put in the standards and they can make life very hard for department, cities, towns and counties and states fire training departments.

I do not know of any fire apparatus maker that will make a vehicle that does not come under the NFPA Standards, if they do, they can not state that it does!
:)

TexasFireWife19

01-27-2007, 08:33 PM

Well, my husband was finally able to talk with the local City Manager and it now looks as if things are finally going to be investigated and changed. Now that he has gone outside the department (and over the Chief's head) it looks like things are moving along for the better.

The City Manager had no idea that the practices of the Fire Chief were so far out of line with the way things should be done. In my investigations, thanks to so many who posted here, I was able to find case histories with the Texas Fire Marshall's office, OSHA, NIOSH, NWCG, and the Texas Attorney General's office (AS PER TEXAS TRANSPORTATION CODE 545.413) etc., where they all require EVERYONE including PAID/PROFESSIONAL fire departments to ride inside the vehicle [fire trucks] using an approved seatbelt/restraint at all times that the vehicle is in motion. Furthermore, in TEXAS, Professional Fire Departments are specifically prohibited to ride on the outside of any moving firetruck. Volunteer Departments are encouraged to follow these regulations; however, it is not optional for Professional Departments.

The City Manager was very interested in these facts and why the Fire Chief allows/REQUIRES our firefighters to disobey these laws/requirements. The CM is going to conduct an investigation and require the equipment to be used properly and any new or retraining needed to be done ASAP. Heads may even roll over this.

Furthermore, it looks like this is all going to be settled without a lawsuit being filed or even implied. Finally, we found someone who was willing to listen and wants to get to the bottom of this. Finally we found someone who cares about the lives of our men and who realizes that it is better to spend a little money now in preventive measure that to loose a lot of money and lives down the road if things don't change.

I will keep everyone posted. But, today is a good day and it looks as if tomorrow (after things are corrected) will be even better!!!

God bless and protect you all as you protect us,
TFW19 (TexasFireWife19)

dday05

01-30-2007, 12:42 PM

Well, my husband was finally able to talk with the local City Manager and it now looks as if things are finally going to be investigated and changed. Now that he has gone outside the department (and over the Chief's head) it looks like things are moving along for the better.

The City Manager had no idea that the practices of the Fire Chief were so far out of line with the way things should be done. In my investigations, thanks to so many who posted here, I was able to find case histories with the Texas Fire Marshall's office, OSHA, NIOSH, NWCG, and the Texas Attorney General's office (AS PER TEXAS TRANSPORTATION CODE 545.413) etc., where they all require EVERYONE including PAID/PROFESSIONAL fire departments to ride inside the vehicle [fire trucks] using an approved seatbelt/restraint at all times that the vehicle is in motion. Furthermore, in TEXAS, Professional Fire Departments are specifically prohibited to ride on the outside of any moving firetruck. Volunteer Departments are encouraged to follow these regulations; however, it is not optional for Professional Departments.

(TexasFireWife19)

Glad to hear things are getting better down there!! I don't understand though why the
"pd" firefighters can't ride on the outside of any moving truck but the vollie firefighters can (even though they're encouraged to follow the regulation) I feel if it's that big of an issue NO firefighter should be riding on the outside of any moving truck period. My 2 cents worth. Keep us informed!

LCFD1L101

01-31-2007, 01:32 AM

glad I don't have to try to fight fire in Texas

dday05

03-17-2007, 11:39 AM

Any update at all on the situation?

KFD11Halligan

04-03-2007, 12:52 AM

I'm sorry to hear about your husband. We fight grass fires pretty much the same way except we are in a cage behind the cab with a safety belt on at all times.

Bowbreaker

04-03-2007, 02:15 AM

KFD11Halligan,

Nice rig but I don't think a cage that high above the cab would work here. We have an occasional tree to deal with. We ride behind the cab but a lot lower on our trucks. We can duck behind the cab if we need to.

Thanks for posting the photo. You don't get to see many Mack wildland engines in my part off the planet.

Brad

dday05

04-08-2007, 03:13 PM

I'm sorry to hear about your husband. We fight grass fires pretty much the same way except we are in a cage behind the cab with a safety belt on at all times.

Have you ever got this unit stuck?Just wondering. Something like that it wouldn't work where we are.

KFD11Halligan

04-08-2007, 09:42 PM

KFD11Halligan

04-08-2007, 09:44 PM

dday05

Yeah we have got it stuck before but it will usually get it's self out. The truck is a 4 wheel drive unit. It will go anywhere you want to go. It has been places that 6X6 units will not go. Also carries 1250 gallons of water. Our land out here is flat land but we have quite a bit of sand.

dday05

04-08-2007, 10:08 PM

dday05

Yeah we have got it stuck before but it will usually get it's self out. The truck is a 4 wheel drive unit. It will go anywhere you want to go. It has been places that 6X6 units will not go. Also carries 1250 gallons of water.

Thanks for the reply KFD. We have not to flat terrain where we live. I'm sure you have alot of open flat ground huh? Thanks .

KFD11Halligan

04-12-2007, 12:41 AM

dday05
Yea, we have a lot of flat land here is a picture of one of our big grass fires on Jan 1, 2006.

jmatthe2

04-12-2007, 01:45 PM

It sounds like your well on your way to getting this changed. Let me add my two sense though.

1. No NFPA is not a law, but it is a consensus standards of your peers. This means the standards are what a prudent fire service professional should do when possible. NFPA is admittable in a court as a standard and even though it is not "LAW" it can hold the value of it.

2. Don't let anyone tell you they are not an "OSHA" state. Every state in the union must have a plan to protect workers. All States must have a plan that either meets or exceeds Federal OSHA. Some call it OSHA, State-OSHA, EPA, or state EPA, but there is a plan.

I hope this works out for the best.

dday05

04-12-2007, 10:51 PM

dday05
Yea, we have a lot of flat land here is a picture of one of our big grass fires on Jan 1, 2006.

Holly cow thats very flat land. I hope you and everone else has a safe fire seasom and everyone comes home!!!!!!!!!!!

TexasFireWife19

04-13-2007, 01:00 PM

Well, they are reviewing the policies and procedures and rewriting some things. But so far no changes have been made. Luckily it has been a very wet winter/spring so far and we haven't had any grass fires this year. I found a few pictures on CBS.com that show our land and actually someone fighting a fire in the exact same manner as my husband (can't tell if it his department or not, can't read the dept. name on the truck). So, changes may be coming, but they aren't here yet.

Thanks for keeping up interest. Do know, I have not dropped the issue. Just waiting to see what happens . . . and waiting . . . and waiting.

TexasFireWife19

The first picture is of how our dept. fights wildfire . . . not my husband, his helmet is red, but could be someone in his department.

The 2nd, 3rd, & 5th are of our terraine and conditions.
The 4th - we don't fight fire like this . . . either way #1 or #4, in a rollover, their dead!

dday05

04-13-2007, 02:23 PM

Thanks for the update and good luck.

3ForksFF

05-12-2007, 02:10 PM

There was a piece on CNN Yesterday also that had a video of the fires in Georgia. One shot had a FF riding the rear fender of what appeared to be a structure truck. Good advertising for us trying to act safe on scene.

TRFirefighter25

05-24-2007, 06:31 PM

Wow, I havn't seen it done like that is years. Here in NJ, we dont have brush trucks that big. We are pine forests, so no open land like that. Our brush trucks are usually Ford F-350 trucks with utility beds. They are all custom caged in from front bumper to rear bumper, right behind the cab we have a bench seat with safety belts. If we are riding and putting the fire out (although we never do this) we sit in the seat. 99% of our brush fires, we park the truck and stretch the booster line. Like I said we have no open grass like that in the Pine Barrens of NJ so out brush firefighting is done from smaller trucks, on tight little trails carved out of the forest. If we tried to bring anything that big out in the woods by us it would sink in the lovely Jersey mud. Whenever we have a brush fire we wind up using our winch to get us out of something. The other added benfit we have is the weather. Other than this year (because we just had that 18,000 acre fire) we stay wet all year long so when we do get a brush fire it is usually confined to a 100' x 100' area. Thats most of the time but as this previous month showed we do get the big one about every 5 years. Because we dont roll the truck and fight the fire we dont have the concern of falling off of it. Our biggest concerns injury wise is stepping on a slippery spot and rolling down a hill, which trusted me, has happened. Thanks and stay safe.

Dalmatian190

05-25-2007, 01:47 PM

Don't let anyone tell you they are not an "OSHA" state. Every state in the union must have a plan to protect workers. All States must have a plan that either meets or exceeds Federal OSHA. Some call it OSHA, State-OSHA, EPA, or state EPA, but there is a plan.

That's a factually incorrect statement.

Unless a State has chosen to implement a State Plan, they are under NO obligation to provide the FedOSHA level of protection to municipal or state employees.

That is in the OSH Act itself --
(5) The term "employer" means a person engaged in a business affecting commerce who has employees, but does not include the United States (not including the United States Postal Service) or any State or political subdivision of a State.

Some states have adopted a State Plan, under OSHA, covering all public and private employees.

Some states have adopted a Public-employee only State Plan, leaving private employers under the jurisdiction of FedOSHA.

Some states have adopted the spirit of OSHA but not the act itself -- Florida the premier example of this where they did not implement a State Plan, but nearly universally copied or exceeded FedOSHA standards under a Firefighter Occupational Health & Safety act. However, by staying out the OSHA system by not adopting a State Plan, they are free to vary from it -- including the ability to grant waivers from the FedOSHA 2in/2out rule.

My guess is there's states out there that have done none of the above.

EPA is a seperate matter, and there is some provisions under Hazwoper that may come into play on some incidents. But it is far from universal, nor to the strength of the OSH Act itself.

SilverCity4

05-29-2007, 12:41 AM

Okay, coming into this a little late but, what the heck.

The combo department I worked for rode the front. It sucked. It sucked under the best of circumstances....not to mentions if the driver wasn't any good or the terrain was ridiculously rough.

The department I volunteer for has never rode the front. When we formed, most (if not all) of the departments in our area did it. We opted not to. We prefer to walk, as our water useage is lower, flare-ups less frequent, and the nozzleman can scram if things get a little instense.

We do, on occassion, ride behind the cab on the a couple of trucks with platforms built for that purpose, but our water usage goes way up. We also can, but usally don't, ride on a platform on the rear of the same trucks that was also built for that purpose. Riding the rear ups the water usage AND reduces effective communication between the driver and nozzleman.

We like to walk. If you can't get it walking, you might want to consider an indirect attack.

A department in our area had a grass truck built with a fully enclosed cage up front (seriously, like a roll cage) with a seat and piped air. These guys were fighting praire fires, 100's of acres at a time, so walking wasn't much of any option.

I don't think I really helped with in the advice area. Just wanted to point out it's common practice in Oklahoma, and there certainly are better alternatives.

I don't want to roast like a hot dog for some grass. Or a house really. Not really for ANYTHING, but certainly not grass.

2andfrom

05-29-2007, 05:25 AM

dday05
Yea, we have a lot of flat land here is a picture of one of our big grass fires on Jan 1, 2006.
Jeez,guys I did not know that there was that amount of "burny" stuff with no concrete!

As a ex-LFB fireman my idea of a grass fire was about 3 acres-tops!

Stay safe

Yes we get large scrub/bush fires here and in Aussie(and they are all courtesy of the TV)--but this is sort of close up and personal.

dday05

04-13-2008, 10:31 PM

Sorry to rivive an old thread, but I was just wondering if any progress had been made with this original story.

LCFD1L101

04-14-2008, 12:43 AM

I to was wondering what had happened.

TexasFireWife19

04-14-2008, 01:37 AM

NCKSFIRE

04-15-2008, 01:18 AM

We don't have any front cages. We do ride behind the cab on platforms. Our fires are fought on large rolling grasslands. Tomorrow the wind is supposed to blow 40+ mph. There is no way you could walk a fire line in those conditions. The thing to remember is that not everyones conditions are the same. We toured 2 stations in eastern Kansas yesterday. One rode on back like us and one walked. The one that walked was in the NE corner of the state. Most of their fires were small woodlot type fires. No large rangeland fires. When the closest station is 15 miles a small fire can become a large fire fast. We have 4 trucks with remote front mount nozzles. We use them to knock down the fire and the guy in the back is the mop up guy. You do use more water, but that is what a tanker is for.

jabberman76366

04-18-2008, 08:57 PM

My department just went to fighting off the back of the truck. The reason was that last month in another local dept two ff's were injured in a crash with another fire truck. We have an old timer who was angry over this decesion. However as staed in the meeting, I do not want to tell one our guy's family why he was killed! Any comments?

mrfdengine6

04-19-2008, 02:26 PM

We prefer to walk. If we need to move faster we fight fire from the passenger seat. We have 10' of 1.5 hose in crosslay behind the cab. This keeps ff off the outside of apparatus and allows for faster movement along fireline.

dday05

04-19-2008, 10:43 PM

Well, they still have the same trucks and fight brush fires the same way. Perched like a hood ornament in full structural bunker gear. Luckily, we haven't had many wildfires here lately but as dry and windy as it is...we will keep praying.

We are kinda just riding it out until retirement (which is just over a year away). Then I will be free to make noise without fear of retaliation in his job. This Fire Chief has actually pulled the pump operator off of the truck while my husband was in a burning building! As soon as we are out of the department... I am going to try to remedy the situation for others. Too dangerous to do it now. Then I will feel free to disclose our department location as well (although you could probably easily figure it out).

Thanks for asking and I will keep you posted if there are any changes or updates... The saga continues

Well, it's very unfortunate that you must wait until your husband retires to attempt to make fellow firefighters duties SAFER at this dept. The chief needs to realize that he is an ______________ (you fill in the blank) Hopefully everyone will be safe! Thanks for the update though.

Well taking the pump operator away from the engine WTF? That is not cool at all!!! This chief needs to get with the program!

TexasFireWife19

04-20-2008, 01:39 AM

I know it sounds cowardly to wait until my husband can retire in just about a year. But I have been working on some things in the background until that time. I HOPE that it is stupidity that made the chief pull the pump operator off the truck while my husband and one of his crew were in the burning building. A part of me (a big part of me) thinks that it was a warning that something could happen to my husband if we didn't keep our mouths shut.

I do have documented proof that the firechief is "stalking" (okay "watching on a very regular basis") my myspace page as well (keeping that proof in a safe deposit box and not at home). There are trackers out there that allow you to record the IP address everytime your myspace page is visited. The chief is probably on here too and just waiting to catch me actually identifying the department or the chief by name so that there is proof that this is me. Not that anything could be done to my husband for something I say or do. (No trackers out there for this site). Plus, if anyone from our department is on here, they WILL KNOW that this is me. Of course, no one within the department respects the chief, so I don't worry too much.

Trust me, once my husband retires and I am able to speak out openly locally, I will. My anonymity on here and not raising a stir on a bigger basis is not to protect my husband's job or paycheck, it is to protect him from a person that I consider to be unstable. I am trying to document proof of everything, but I can't prove intent on pulling the pump operater. If I could, the chief would be in jail right now.

I HAVE talked with a couple of City Commissioners "off the record" and on the bright side, it looks as if they are looking into getting a new truck or two now... As long as they see to it that the truck isn't altered against NFPA standard once it gets here.

I have probably already said too much as it is. Again, thanks for the continued concern. All I ask is you keep our men in your thoughts and prayers until our chief is g o n e !

TexasFireWife19

dday05

04-22-2008, 07:52 PM

Keep us posted on anything that happens please.

Roch207

04-22-2008, 09:26 PM

We have never used a front mounted seat/bumper/hot-dog-cage/ on any of our rigs. We do however have riding platforms on the back of our units that are almost completly closed in. These have always worked good for us, but there has been a instance or 2 when a FF got dumped on his *** getting on to a rig. Recently we had our FF's (not the people that right the checks) put our heads together and we came up with a safer design. (IMHO) It lets the nozzle man talk to the driver, and has considerable more protection.

The reason you see a lot of the Forward racks is that they are able to see the fire, put it out, and to a degree allow the nozzle man to guide the truck. They work, there is no way around that. If we where to Follow OSHA, NFPA, and every other saftey organiaztion to a tee, we would all be out of a job. Not saying that you shouldn't look into diffrent attack methods, or trying to defend anyone, there are some dumb ideas that work.

Interesting concept. OSHA and NFPA standards are concensus driven by groups of experts in a variety of fields. NFPA standards are developed by some of the smartest and experienced firefighters in the country. Things like mandating airpacks for interior firefighting, eliminating riding tailboards on structural pieces and replacing rubber coats and plastic helmets with fire retardant ones haven't put us out of a job yet. OSHA has significantly lowered occupational fatalities and injuries since 1970. If every department followed OSHA, NFPA and every other safety organization we wouldn't be out of a job, we'd have minimum staffing so that we could actually put out fires safer. We'd be able to make sure everyone went home at night. Sounds a lot more important than "keeping the status quo" and "we done always done it this way".

Andy2802

04-24-2008, 01:03 PM

Let's take out the obvious personal safety issues...

This doesn't make sense from the purely financial side..
It's unfortunate that management can't see spending $6K (times the number of units) to retrofit a bumper with a remote turret, but they run the risk of the tremendous expense of medical bills, lost work, and possibly long-term disability or death benefits...

.. but we kep doing it... we keep climbing into what we call the "Hot Seat".
At least they give us a seatbelt......

neiowa

04-26-2008, 06:30 PM

Well, they still have the same trucks and fight brush fires the same way. Perched like a hood ornament in full structural bunker gear.

For less than $350 you can buy him a NFPA compliant set of Nomex wildland gear. Or even just the coat at about $185 and use the structural pants. Thats a huge improvement over full structural gear Make a nice Christmas or birthday gift/

Or perhaps easy fundraiser to so equip the entire FD. Might help occupy your time usefully.

SilverCity4

04-26-2008, 11:23 PM

TexasFireWife19

04-27-2008, 05:25 AM

For less than $350 you can buy him a NFPA compliant set of Nomex wildland gear. Or even just the coat at about $185 and use the structural pants. Thats a huge improvement over full structural gear. Make a nice Christmas or birthday gift

Or perhaps easy fundraiser to so equip the entire FD. Might help occupy your time usefully.

This is a pretty good idea that I will definitely look into. However, it doesn't help if the truck rolls. And it wouldn't have helped my husband in the case where he was hurt. The truck hit a divot or something and jolted one direction and my husband was thrown off the front of the truck towards the fire. He was probably knocked unconcious for a short time because the equipment operator actually had to stop the truck and get out and look for my husband because he didn't get up and the EO couldn't see him through the smoke of the oncoming flames. I praise God that my husband regained conciousness and got up before the flames got to them. The EO and my husband both could have died that day and it was just by the grace of God that they didn't. It certainly wasn't because they were working in a safe condition in a department that follows NFPA guidelines.

I do have some specific responses just for you...I apologize to the many helpful voices on here that have been very supportive and have given their advice without personal jabs...However, this is NEIOWA's second snide comment to me personally and I must respond.Neiowa, there was no need to finish your thoughtful idea with a comment on my occupying my time usefully... this from the same person that implied I was just looking for someone to sue (see neiowa's post on page 1).

First of all, you don't know how I do or do not occupy my time and how usefully or non-usefully I spend it. Nor, would that be any of your business. I was NOT the one who reopened this post. Someone (I believe it was DDAY05) who was concerned on how this turned out or didn't turn out posted a question for an update and I was happy to respond.

Secondly, if we were looking to sue someone as you previously accused me of over a year ago, we would have. We have tried to handle this without taking any legal action. Besides, we let the statute of limitations run out (2 yrs in Texas). So, if we were to sue...it would have been, as I previously responded, for policy change or rather to enforce the policies already in place. We are not now nor have we ever in any way been looking for any financial gain whatsoever. If we were, we would have sued and we were told by our attornies that we had a very good case to win some big bucks. We didn't sue, period. I know this wasn't mentioned THIS time, but I am sure that you must have been wondering since you accused me before and you obviously think that I don't spend my time usefully...Just wanted you to know that I wasn't uselessly spending my time trying to sue anyone.

I do plan on being quite useful with my time once I know that the fire chief cannot retaliate against my husband any longer. Who knows, maybe I will even run for city commission or get my husband to (he can't run while he works for the city). There, maybe I/he can actually really get something accomplished. Talking with a current commissioner has already helped somewhat as we are apparently going to get a some new trucks made for fighting wildfire (with some sort of cage on top?). As long as the truck doesn't roll they will be safer than they are now, which is fighting grass fires perched on the front bumper of a booster truck made for driving on the streets.

Thanks for letting me vent. Constructive comments and suggestions and questions are always appreciated...personal attacks and innuendos I can live without and ARE a useless waste of your time and mine. Your whole posting was actually quite good up until that point.

Now, I am going to spend some useful time and go to bed and get some sleep.

respectfully,
TFW19

Catch22

04-28-2008, 05:35 PM

I know I'm jumping into this a little late, but why isn't your husbands IAFF Local jumping all over this? If it's a violation of Texas law, why haven't they filed a complaint with the state (OSH, AG's office, anything)?

I'm sorry, but your husband shouldn't have to wait until he's retired to do something about this. Quite frankly, the city should consider themselves lucky he hasn't sued for damages over his injury, especially if it's something that he's going to have to live with for the rest of his life.

simpleguy68

04-29-2008, 04:57 PM

Contact the Texas Commission on Fire Protection, which oversees paid FDs in Texas AND which has adopted NFPA standards. They can look into it and get something done.

TexasFireWife19

06-20-2008, 05:25 AM

Well, our local association is in collective bargaining with the powers-that-be (above the fire chief's head). Hopefully this will get some much needed changes made.

I will keep you posted...

Thanks again for your concern. Maybe the light at the end of the tunnel is starting to glow just a little.

TFW19

GCFD5exploder

06-22-2008, 11:44 PM

we have those "torch porches" on quite a few of our brush rigs but the seats are fully enclosed by chain link fence and they are pretty high..... high enough to make it a pain in the @$$ to drive and the seat is welded to the platform and we have a hose coming straight out of the bumper to the firefighter on the porch....... they also have to be buckled in and seated the entire time.......

edge1317

06-23-2008, 01:45 AM

Is it just chain link fence? Any roll bar or something that could take a hit if the truck hits something, rolls or goes nose down? If it's just chain link it is worthless just giving a false sense of security.

How do you know it is a pain to drive? I pray you haven't drove it assuming you are an explorer.

GCFD5exploder

06-23-2008, 01:46 PM

i have not drivin it except for in a training thing and that was to know how to deal with the truck in case something happened to the driver..... and sitting in the passenger seat is still a pain to see ahead and yes there is like 1/4" steel slabs ( it think they are about 1/4) going around it too....... I don't get to use it because of liability but i do think it is dangerous and we have only had one problem with it but that was easily fixed

wildfire18

06-24-2008, 07:57 PM

BLM does not authorize a person to ride outside a vehicle when the vehicle is in motion; it is against BLM policy.

NFPA, while not law, is the standard for "best practices" and is used as the "reasonable" test in the event of a lawsuit.

GCFD5exploder

06-26-2008, 06:56 PM

I personally do not agree with riding on the bumper.......it seems like it would be extremely dangerous...... they say not to ride on the back but some departments ( like mine )think it's okay to do it on the front.... i don't get why they need to take that risk

dday05

06-30-2008, 12:31 PM

rh0586

07-17-2008, 12:55 AM

Ours trucks are built with platforms to ride in behind the cab with doors that close and latch, every locale varies in the way you must fight wildfires, our particular area works much better when riding in a SAFE area of the truck..... not the front bumper in my opinion, in cali, most places i've seen is really not the best place to ride in a truck because of the terrain. Our part of texas is not that hilly. As far as the laws go, i am not sure what kind of department your husband is on but if it is volunteer then the dept is not governed by the texas commission on fire protection, it is reccomended that you try to follow these but not always happening due to the shortage of funding in many areas. Yes nfpa says that any apparatus made should not be rode on, if so then it is not nfpa approved. But what i have seen if it is done properly then usually is not to dangerous, ever think about getting on the driver instead? thats where most problems now seem to be from, the driver......... between people rolling tankers and throwing people from trucks it probably
ould not hurt us all to reevaluate the way we do some things and not others.

MontanaSam

08-09-2008, 01:37 AM

I admit that I skiped over most of the thread, short on time. I used to be SamsonFCDES, but that had to go with my last job, just go around to posting again.

My VFD that the HORRIBLE habbit of ridding on the back of trucks, they even went so far to to make "monkey bars", basically a pipe cage to stand up in and ride while you fought fire from just behind the cab of the brushtruck.

That was the technology then, and it worked...but there were a lot of falls from the trucks (worst injury a broken ankle), lots of smashed family jewels (the bars were just that height...damn), luckly no roll overs. Lots of near misses though, one being when a driver drove under a tree (smoke) and the guy in the back had to bail or a 12 inch around branch would have crushed him.

So, we sought a better way....and found it in remote control bumper nozzles. To expensive you say, hogwash, the broken ankle cost more then one of these. Think of them as an SCBA, its safty gear more then anything. The safest place in pump and roll is in the cab, seatbelt on, air conditioner on, gatoraid i the cup holder. Hard to get run over, burnt, heart attack, etc...Not impossible, but you really have to screw up.

Sure, you might waste 10% of the water, well, so what. life then property then fire control. Safety first.

It took a while to get people to swite over and train properly...hey, welcome to the fire service.

LCFD1L101

08-15-2008, 02:23 AM

My VFD that the HORRIBLE habbit of ridding on the back of trucks, they even went so far to to make "monkey bars", basically a pipe cage to stand up in and ride while you fought fire from just behind the cab of the brushtruck.

HORRIBLE? they even went so far as to try to make it safer? those bastards.

[/QUOTE]That was the technology then, and it worked...but there were a lot of falls from the trucks (worst injury a broken ankle), lots of smashed family jewels (the bars were just that height...damn), luckly no roll overs. Lots of near misses though, one being when a driver drove under a tree (smoke) and the guy in the back had to bail or a 12 inch around branch would have crushed him.[/QUOTE]

So do you have any picts? Im curious how the "monkey bars" were constructed. Apparently not well considering the ankle, balls and the other near misses.

[/QUOTE]So, we sought a better way....and found it in remote control bumper nozzles. To expensive you say, hogwash, the broken ankle cost more then one of these. Think of them as an SCBA, its safty gear more then anything. The safest place in pump and roll is in the cab, seatbelt on, air conditioner on, gatoraid i the cup holder. Hard to get run over, burnt, heart attack, etc...Not impossible, but you really have to screw up.[/QUOTE]

Great in thoery but. One neighboring district has to double tax to paid the insurance and keep the trucks running. We put our own fuel in the trucks. (there are 8 voters and every farm/ranch has a truck)

[/QUOTE]Sure, you might waste 10% of the water, well, so what. life then property then fire control. Safety first.[/QUOTE]

Something I can agree with. We learned Risk Life for Life, property for property and nothing for nothing.

HeidiLou

09-12-2008, 01:28 AM

Texas Fire Wife,
just started reading your thread. FYI, Texas Transportation Code only applies to public roadways, not private land where grass fires occur. In other words, as soon as you leave the pavement, Transportation Code goes out the door. Several depts. where I live have platforms behind the cab that I believe are a safe option for grass fires. With our drought situation, there is no way to pull a hose along side the truck and keep up with the fire. Good Luck with your "project".
HeidiLou

Bushwhacker

09-15-2008, 12:13 AM

Just a thought, and not trying to be a smart/dumb/wise-***, But have ya tried walking?

As both a State and a Contract engine boss, and a VFD Officer I ask.

That said i have been Caught riding on a Engine, The young and the dumb days. I can honestly say that i do not miss the beatings or the pointless risks that came from it.

Water cannons? hhhmmmm..... I can see the good, the bad, and the ugly with them, personally think that the bad and the ugly out ways the good. But everyone is entilted to there own opinions.

NCKSFIRE

09-17-2008, 11:51 PM

Walking! Have you ever been to the Great Plains states on a windy day. Fighting a grass fire on the open plains is quite a bit different than fighting a forest fire. That said, Riding on the front bumper is nuts. We do still ride behind the cab and we also have 5 trucks with remote nozzles. They work very well. Set them and leave them. Too many people think that you are moving the nozzles and using the joystick all of the time trying to move the nozzle to the fire. You just need to set a pattern and drive. If you tried to walk the firelines out here you would end up with firefighters dead from heart attacks. Once a truck leaves the road and starts attacking the fire it should be in LOW 4x4 not going to the races. At those speeds you are much safer. Every area has a different way of fighting fires. The open expanses, limited resources and firelines that can extend on for distances over a mile or several miles calls for what may seem like unorthodox methods in some eyes.

Bushwhacker

09-18-2008, 02:37 PM

Walking! Have you ever been to the Great Plains states on a windy day. Fighting a grass fire on the open plains is quite a bit different than fighting a forest fire. That said, Riding on the front bumper is nuts. We do still ride behind the cab and we also have 5 trucks with remote nozzles.

If you tried to walk the firelines out here you would end up with firefighters dead from heart attacks. Once a truck leaves the road and starts attacking the fire it should be in LOW 4x4 not going to the races. At those speeds you are much safer. .

I live in Western ND, Right in the middle of the badlands with the great plains to my east. Yes it is a lot diffrent than a forest fire but the practice can be the same.

1. If you can't Move fast enough on foot to work your flank are you really gaining on that fire?

2. Monitors, Great idea but the few i have worked with are water wasting machines.

3. If you have your truck in 4-low 4-lock, not going to the races, why can't you walk beside the truck?

The heart attack thing ya i can see that side of it but ya remember when we signed on for this job and it said it was physically demanding?

Unorthodox, shouldn't mean unsafe, Ya know?

volfirie

09-19-2008, 06:57 AM

1. If you can't Move fast enough on foot to work your flank are you really gaining on that fire?

I'd say yes, we have a lot of success doing running grassfire attacks from the back of the truck, on fires where we'd have no hope of keeping up on foot. But if the fire isn't running, we're likely to get off and work on foot. Whichever method is used, blacking out is always done on foot!

I've seen bumper monitors used, but they do seem to go through the water fast!

LVFD301

09-19-2008, 10:30 AM

If you tried to walk the firelines out here you would end up with firefighters dead from heart attacks. Once a truck leaves the road and starts attacking the fire it should be in LOW 4x4 not going to the races. At those speeds you are much safer. Every area has a different way of fighting fires. The open expanses, limited resources and firelines that can extend on for distances over a mile or several miles calls for what may seem like unorthodox methods in some eyes.

You are in 4 low, and walking is going to give you heart attacks?

Contact NEIOWA and get some hints on gettng free exercise equipment!

No, really!

We have large fires too - large fields, and lots of woods. I am not sure
walking a mile with a hose is too much more demanding than raking a mile
of woods line with a rake, or using a flail.

BDVFD784

11-08-2008, 01:40 PM

Here is a link to some pics of riding on the bumper.
http://www.ecvfr.com/images/grass_fire_31408.htm

DOGRSQ

11-08-2008, 10:10 PM

ChiefKN

11-09-2008, 10:37 PM

Riding outside the cab should be a thing of the past. Like riding on the tailboard or using a big mustache as a smoke filter. We mounted our hose reel such that the passenger can sit in the cab and spray to the right side. Otherwise, the firefighter can get out and walk. Situation dictates the best choice. The bumper or the tailgate as not options.

NJ still leaves a well on their type six "power wagons" behind the cab for a firefighter to ride and spray water off the engine as it crawls through the pine barrens. It's under the roll bars, but I don't think they put seatbelts or anything like that on them.

In the Northern part of the state, the water tank is moved forwards more and the well is near the rear and used for storage.

sierts

11-12-2008, 07:26 AM

Bushwhacker,

"3. If you have your truck in 4-low 4-lock, not going to the races, why can't you walk beside the truck?"

well, even not being experienced, one point comes to mind:
we had one big fire. about 300 acres.
after about 15 hours, when the fire was more or less under control, i allowed the crew to take a break, while a civilian took the borrowed 2,500gallon semi-truck for refill.
when the truck came back half an hour later, my men were all sleeping. out cold. i could not wake them up. they had walked for 13 hours. laying and taking in hoses, turning around burning logs and so on.
i did the mop-up with civilians.
me being by far the oldest man in our department. and the one in the worst phisical condition. - but i had spent more than half of the time driving.

so for me the option to let my men fight from vehicles seems very tempting.
this thread showed me, to think well about the different options, but as long, as we are few in numbers we will not walk big fires again, if avoidable.

my men first. - for me significates as well, not to wear them out innecessarily.

sierts
.

LVFD301

11-13-2008, 11:01 AM

sierts

11-14-2008, 10:40 AM

Here in
the US I would have mutual aid coming before I got to this point.

i did call the nearest neighbours. look:
http://forums.firehouse.com/showthread.php?t=103234

but as the site was nearly 50 miles from their firehouse, i did not want to keep their only firetruck longer than really necessary. (and they had been at a grassfire earlier the same day in their own district)

that is just my point: we are few, we got large districts/counties - so we need to make the work as easy as we can for those few, who volunteer.

our departamento(state) is about 90% the size of Kentucky.
about a hundred thousand inhabitants.
four firedepartments, two of these with one firetruck and one homemade rescue car each, the other two working with tankertrucks from the lokal Coops.
(a total of fifty-plus volunteers)

sierts
.

volfirie

11-16-2008, 05:59 AM

sierts, we work from the back of a truck all the time for grassfires. They get too big too quickly for us to do anything else. If you want to see one of the vehicles we use for that sort of work, and want to know how we do it, let me know. Use tha Yahoo link.

sierts

11-17-2008, 06:56 PM

volfirie,

i don't have Yahoo messenger.
could you send it to this mail adress?

bomberos-neuland=at=chaco-paraguay.net

thanks,
sierts

volfirie

11-18-2008, 07:21 AM

i don't have Yahoo messenger.
could you send it to this mail adress?

All done. Get yahoo, it's free!

sierts

11-21-2008, 04:49 PM

volfirie,

thanks, got your mail. (still trying to decode it)

sierts

needbiggerirons

06-07-2009, 06:56 PM

TamThompson

06-18-2009, 04:43 PM

Hi Texas Fire Wife, I'm a new Probationary Volunteer Firefighter lady from Blanco County, Texas. If it makes you feel any better about your husband's shoulder, I compete in whitewater kayaking at the expert level. I'm 50 years old, and back on February 2nd, I had a BAD kayaking injury--tore one rotator cuff totally for the 2nd time (1st repair was 1997, from a fall on the floor at work), and another halfway torn, plus they relocated my biceps tendon in my left shoulder.

I am left-handed, and now at 3 months plus post-op (surgery was March 4th, 2009, 2 hours, with 2 orthopedics), I am back to paddling hard and fast and playing kayak polo, and making goal shots left-handed (bottom of goal is 6 feet above water, like a soccer goal) on our Austin Team Men's goalies (who are on the US Men's Team), praise God!

Just wanted to let you know that with some surgery (maybe) and some good PT and stretching and training, shoulders can heal up pretty good. :)

Have applied to the ACC Fire Academy in Austin for fall semester (I have a B.S, an M.Ed. and an all-but-dissertation Ph.D. from UT-Austin in Mechanical Engineering) and am on the waiting list.

Bless y'all,
Tam

FirefighterHuey

07-11-2009, 12:50 AM

TexasFireWife19

07-13-2009, 01:11 PM

By my reckoning, it has been a year or so since you last posted on your husband's situation and your/his dealings with inept management. Was wondering if any major improvements have been made within you district and department regarding policies on riding bumpers for brush fire. Recently joined the site and came upon your issue while leafing through the forums.

Sorry for the delay in my reply. Things have not really changed much. They did get some new trucks (that they still ride on the outside of but are supposedly designed for wildland fighting). The kicker is that they haven't been trained on how to use the trucks! This has got to be one of the most "unprofessional" professional departments EVER!

The good news is that we are very, very close to retirement. I cannot even begin to hint enough at exactly how close we are. Lets just say that things are going to be exposed in the very near future. We were basically scared into silence but that will only last until my husband is no longer working for the department. This will probably end up in criminal court before the end of the year.

If I gave you all the details, you would think that I was insane or making all this up. When we document the things that go on, we can't even believe it and we live it! I will keep you updated as I can.

~TXFW19

TexasFireWife19

07-13-2009, 01:15 PM

Hi Texas Fire Wife, I'm a new Probationary Volunteer Firefighter lady from Blanco County, Texas. If it makes you feel any better about your husband's shoulder, . ..... Just wanted to let you know that with some surgery (maybe) and some good PT and stretching and training, shoulders can heal up pretty good. :) ....

Bless y'all,
Tam

Tam,
Thank you so much, I will pass this on to my husband. & good luck with your FF endevours! I pray God's protection over you!
~TXFW19

TexasFireWife19

07-13-2009, 01:19 PM

NFPA 1500 is the standard for safety. As with any standard you can not pick and choose which sections you want to follow. For example, if you wear turn outs, bunker gear , hitch or how ever you refer to it. You cant leave out the portion of riding on the outside of a vehicle because you have adopted the entire code. NFPA my not be law but it is a standard held in such high regards that it can and will be used during litigation.

I couldn't agree more! Hopefully things will change soon. I think we have basically decided to advocate for the firefighters that my husband is leaving behind (through his retirement). We just couldn't live with ouselves if we got out safe and then a firefighter ends up seriously injured or even dead
because we didn't speak up.

~TXFW19

Hoover42

07-22-2009, 05:51 PM

TexasFireWife.... I know what you are going through... My lil brother was one of your husbands E/O's. We have been trying to have a better working relationship between the 2 departments, but it probably will never work until "The Chief" is gone. I have spoke with several members of the "paid" departments and everything is good with the guys, its just she doesn't like our chief. There have been several times where we have offered to help out with calls, but were told we weren't trained to her standards. She would rather call a smaller department 15 miles away to cover their station while they are out on a multi alarm fire, knowing that we were there with an engine ready to help out as much as possible.

Keep up the good work and we will be seeing you and Cap around town.