Escape System

[Riversong]

What's your prefered firefighter escape kit and why?

If you've used the FDNY Cosby hook/Petzl Exo escape system, what are your impressions? FDNY System (http://www.allhandsfire.com/exo.html)

If you've used the FESH hook escape system, what is your experience with it? FESH System (http://tinyurl.com/29xre4)

I just trained some of the interior firefighters in my department in the use of the FESH system and was impressed with its ease of use and speed of deployment. While I think we would do better to customize our kit with parts from different manufacturers, I like the simplicity and functionality of the anchor hook (rather than trying to find an anchor to clip the rope around).

- Robert

[dday05]

All of our people carry rope bags. They're not as fancy as what you're talking about but it does what we need them to do.

[Riversong]

All of our people carry rope bags. They're not as fancy as what you're talking about but it does what we need them to do.

Do you use them only for escape or also for search & rescue or other things?

What technique are you trained in for escape with only a rope?

[tecrsq]

I like the hook in the FESH system, looks to be real convenient in a gotta go moment.

I am using a CMC Escape Artist now and will probably buy one hook and try it out in some different anchor evolutions.

Im wondering if DDay05 was eluding to a body rappel for a bailout technique?

My personal bags are the bail out configuration "sits and waits for action" and a small bag with 35 feet of 3/8 static kernmantle that I use for searches, hoisting and general utility purposes.

Gotta admit that I have trained with my identical and preferred rig many times but the rope in the "break in case of emergency bag" is cherry and has not been used, only taken out to inspect.

[Riversong]

I like the hook in the FESH system, looks to be real convenient in a gotta go moment.

I am using a CMC Escape Artist now and will probably buy one hook and try it out in some different anchor evolutions.

I just ordered a FESH hook from FESH hook (http://emergencyresponderproducts.com/ffescapesystem.html) and I'm going to tie it onto my personal escape kit which includes an escape 8. I also ordered a Yates FireSafe rappel device, which is supposed to have enough friction for a 300 lb firefighter, though I worry about rope twist.

http://www.yatesgear.com/rescue/firerescue/images/sm/1930EscapeFireSafeDetail.jpg

What do you think about the Escape Artist? Is it safer with the release lever, or does that just create complacency and risk accidental release if the lever contacts the wall?

[resqtek]

Hey Robert,
I have heard guys argue that an auto locking descender like the EXO or the escape artist may be hazardous. If a firefighter lost consciousness in an edge transition accident, he is left hanging there until the fire melts his rope or someone rescues him. They prefer a device that can be controlled by a bottom belay like the escape 8 or other similar device. This way a firefighter on the ground can contol the descent if need be. On the other hand, if that firefighter is not present to provide bottom belay, the rappeller will fall to the ground anyway. What do you think? Heard any of this discussion before?

[Riversong]

Hey Robert,
I have heard guys argue that an auto locking descender like the EXO or the escape artist may be hazardous. If a firefighter lost consciousness in an edge transition accident, he is left hanging there until the fire melts his rope or someone rescues him. They prefer a device that can be controlled by a bottom belay like the escape 8 or other similar device. This way a firefighter on the ground can contol the descent if need be. On the other hand, if that firefighter is not present to provide bottom belay, the rappeller will fall to the ground anyway. What do you think? Heard any of this discussion before?

It's a toss-up, isn't it?

If you need to bail out a window, there's probably not a firefighter on the ground, otherwise he would probably be setting up a ground ladder for you.

An autolocking descender makes the edge transition easier, perhaps, but I wonder about accidental release of the lever. At least a double-wrapped 8-type or Yates FireSafe descender would offer some friction even if left to itself, but they would also twist the rope and probably cause kinking if the rope is being payed out of the bag.

Bottom line: there's no perfect solution, but since escape kits are a last ditch one-time use option, I guess they don't need to be.

I do think the hook, however, is the best advance in escape kits as it makes anchoring so much faster (who's got time to find an anchor in a smokey building when the flames are licking at your face?

- Robert

[AFD020]

I am very interested in the FESH hook. I have a crosby and really like that as well. I am wondering if the FESH hook is NFPA or UL rated.

I do like the CMC Escape Artist, but I worry in the North East about a mechanical device and freezing temps. We had one instance in training where a FF had his escape artist rigged backwards so he couldn't descend at all. I worry that it is too easy for someone to change on their own if you are issuing them department wide.

Currently my setup is a Crosby hook at the end of a RIT Rescue Systems FIRE Descender with tubular webbing. http://www.ritrescuesystems.com/product_detail.php?id=72
We have tested it extensively and used it in several different configurations with FF up to 300 lbs with no issues. One configuration is almost hands free with a slow descent and no moving parts or mechanical things to worry about!

Steve

[DSMtuned]

Does anyone know what size the eyelets are on the Fesh Hook?

It almost looks like the rope is fed through the end of the hook twice. Kind of sharp looking bends... Is there enough of an eyelet that you can hook a carabiner to it?


Thanks,
-Craig

[JAFA62]

I have the escape 8 and I also have a yates firesafe. Robert that picture you show its ran through the Carabiner aswell is that for the added friction?
I dont set mine up like that I just feed the Fig8 once not twice. Mine is set up in my Punker pant pockets with 75' of 9mm rope. I use a Haligan as my anchor in the window and away I go. My decender is attached to either my SCBA or my Personal Escape belt.

[Riversong]

I am very interested in the FESH hook. I have a crosby and really like that as well. I am wondering if the FESH hook is NFPA or UL rated.
No, there are no third-party certifications (which would probably double the price), but the 5,000 lb MBS exceeds NFPA requirements for auxilliary and escape equipment and even the 1140 lbs tip strength exceeds the NFPA load-with-no-distortion requirement of 1124 lbs.

Currently my setup is a Crosby hook at the end of a RIT Rescue Systems FIRE Descender with tubular webbing. We have tested it extensively and used it in several different configurations with FF up to 300 lbs with no issues. One configuration is almost hands free with a slow descent and no moving parts or mechanical things to worry about!

The RIT seems like a nice system, but I'm concerned about the use of webbing, which has no shock-absorption qualities at all, and about the kevlar construction, which can self-abrade and fatique over time (even just getting pumelled around inside its pouch) and doesn't have the durability of its replacement aramid fiber - technora (which most escape rope is made from, often combined with more dynamic fibers).

- Robert

[Riversong]

Does anyone know what size the eyelets are on the Fesh Hook?

It almost looks like the rope is fed through the end of the hook twice. Kind of sharp looking bends... Is there enough of an eyelet that you can hook a carabiner to it?

The two eyes are 3/8" diameter and have bevelled openings to soften the rope contact. The bend in the steel at the eyes keeps the rope from abrading and the "T" end keeps the hook stable on a wall or sill.

The holes are too small for a carabiner and you wouldn't want a hard link at that point anyway. It's a well-designed piece of equipment and seems more functional than the NYPD Cosby hook.

- Robert

[Riversong]

Robert that picture you show its ran through the Carabiner aswell is that for the added friction?

That's how Yates pictures its use, and that's why it will offer enough friction for a 300 pounder. If you have enough friction with a single wrap, that will reduce the amount of rope twisting, but I've found that the SMC Escape 8 offers little fiction even for my 185 lbs.

- Robert

[tecrsq]

What do you think about the Escape Artist? Is it safer with the release lever, or does that just create complacency and risk accidental release if the lever contacts the wall?

I really like the escape artist, it is easy to rig, does not take up as much space as you would think, the action of it is positive.

It is really nice when negotiating the edge providing the user the ability of concentrating on the transition more.

With regard to contacting the wall and the lever letting out rope, I have tried it 10 ways till Sunday and have only managed to make it happen once.

That one time I was intentionally trying to get it to a pinch point and I might also add that it was relatively easy to change the positioning of the body and get it back into service without a scary descent speed.

I agree with you on the twist while using the Yates descender, hell... all those type descenders do it, but given the crap they bail you out of and the relatively small amount of time in use, they are great tools.

[jbrescue]

Search rope is for searching! If you have your escape rope deployed for search, how can you bail on it? If it burns while searching, how can you bail on it? Whatever system you use, practice with it until you can use it comfortably with your eyes closed.

[PFDTruck18]

I like the idea of using nothing. Grab an anchor anyway you can, throw the rest of the rope over the edge, grab a plumb with your left hand just over the edge, rap the rope under your pack and back up joining the ropes, grab the rope with right hand blow your left, maintaining your plumb point and roll over the edge, use the friction of your pack and both hands to control your decent. Works great.

edit: oh and like the previous poster wrote, bail out rope is for that reason only. Dont go using it as search rope or utility rope.

[DCFDRescue2]

I like the idea of using nothing. Grab an anchor anyway you can, throw the rest of the rope over the edge, grab a plumb with your left hand just over the edge, rap the rope under your pack and back up joining the ropes, grab the rope with right hand blow your left, maintaining your plumb point and roll over the edge, use the friction of your pack and both hands to control your decent. Works great.

edit: oh and like the previous poster wrote, bail out rope is for that reason only. Dont go using it as search rope or utility rope.

Have you ever tried this with wet gloves? It makes a difference. FWIW, the bailout that you are talking about is the one I used until I heard about the wet glove thing.

I then switched to a Gut Belt with an Escape Artist and am still debating between a FESH hook and a carabiner as my connection point and I'm trying to figure out if connecting both is a possiblity.

[Riversong]

I ...am still debating between a FESH hook and a carabiner as my connection point and I'm trying to figure out if connecting both is a possiblity.

I tied a very short webbing sling to my FESH hook and carabiner'ed it to my escape line. That way it can be quickly disconnected, leaving the 'biner as the anchor device.

Just be careful about side-loading the 'biner on an edge.

- Robert

[giweff]

I have a gut belt with an escape artist and 5o ft of 8mm sterlining bail out line. In a rock n rescue bag on the belt all pre rigged. I am interested in getting a hook for a quicker anchoring point I have not used either. I am leaning towards the crosby hook just because of the NFPA rating. What all do you think. Thanks for any advise.

[giweff]

Also do you like have your rig all hooked up on the belt ready to go or in you bunker paints better?

[PFDTruck18]

When I bail, Im not as much concerned about the rate of my decent and the heat generated by the this method as I am about what would happen if I didnt get out. Im sure the wet gloves would decrease friction increasing the decent speed and the friction would burn the crap out of your hands, its a risk im willing to take over the alternative.

[piedmontess1]

It's a toss-up, isn't it?

If you need to bail out a window, there's probably not a firefighter on the ground, otherwise he would probably be setting up a ground ladder for you.

An autolocking descender makes the edge transition easier, perhaps, but I wonder about accidental release of the lever. At least a double-wrapped 8-type or Yates FireSafe descender would offer some friction even if left to itself, but they would also twist the rope and probably cause kinking if the rope is being payed out of the bag.

Bottom line: there's no perfect solution, but since escape kits are a last ditch one-time use option, I guess they don't need to be.

I do think the hook, however, is the best advance in escape kits as it makes anchoring so much faster (who's got time to find an anchor in a smokey building when the flames are licking at your face?

- Robert

Riversong,

You hit the nail on the head....

Yes this is my first post, and yes I am a Eqpt Distributor so I will say I am a little favorable to the lines that I sell the most of.

with that out of the way...

Riversong has noted exactly the different advantages and disadvantages of each system. So far every system that I have tried, that doesn't incorporate the auto locking descender, does cause problems with the edge transition. Also, with some of the Friction devices, we have ran into problems with anchoring and being able to quickly deploy enough rope to make the bail out point. Unless you are using a tool at the windowseal.

As I said, every system has it's advantages, and disadvantages, including the body wrap. The main thing to remember is that all systems will generate the desired reults, but not without training, training, training.

A little side note....
After using a ton of different systems I have found that the RIT Rescue Systems new PRESS System that incorporates the CMC Escape Artist and the Crosby Hook, has been by far the easiest all around system to use.

[firefighterMV]

No, there are no third-party certifications (which would probably double the price), but the 5,000 lb MBS exceeds NFPA requirements for auxilliary and escape equipment and even the 1140 lbs tip strength exceeds the NFPA load-with-no-distortion requirement of 1124 lbs.



The RIT seems like a nice system, but I'm concerned about the use of webbing, which has no shock-absorption qualities at all, and about the kevlar construction, which can self-abrade and fatique over time (even just getting pumelled around inside its pouch) and doesn't have the durability of its replacement aramid fiber - technora (which most escape rope is made from, often combined with more dynamic fibers).

- Robert

I have the FESH hook attached to a short piece of 8mm rope and a steel carabiner that stays in my left pocket alone. Then a small 8mm rope bag that hangs off my bunker pants with a figure 8 on a bight tied to hook the carabiner into for a really fast assembly.

And remember, this stuff may not be NFPA approved, but it is what works to get your @ss out in an emergency. Hopefully, none of these personal escape systems EVER get used in your career or something went terribly wrong in the first place.

[truckie101]

I didn't see the munter hitch mentioned.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian_hitch

Certainly not my favorite descent device, but given nothing more than a harness/belt, a rope, a single carabiner, and a decent anchor, it has a lot going for it, including the ability to belay from the ground if the bail-ee loses consciousness. It can also be used as a friction device to lower someone to the ground.

I've known several climbers who have used this as their sole rappeling device. I'll stick to my rack and figure 8, but I've used it a couple of times on short drops just to make sure I'm comfortable with using it in a pinch.

[footrat]

The PMI PED is my friend. I can't quite bail hands-free on it, but it provides enough friction that I think it would slow me significantly if I just fell.

http://www.allhandsfire.com/fire/prods/PMI-HD26024.html