trident air prime

[westofd1]

hi all, just wondering if anyone has experience with trident products "AIR PRIME". runs of the air system of trucks, venturi mounted to pump. trying to find an alternative to hale esp primer. we have had nothing but troubles with the new esp on our 2003 engine, 3 times in less than 4 yrs and it wont work now. looking for an alternative. thanks stay safe

[tomwnh]

I have been spec'ing that primer on 90% of the new trucks I have quoted and sold for the last few years. Haven't had one complaint. Even had some clients that retrofitted older trucks after they had a chance to use the Trident. One thing you have to be sure to check is you have a large enough compressor and air storage. Most trucks I do we put and extra air tank on. A 18CFM compressor should do the trick.

[Rescue101]

Westofd,PM me.I may have a solution for your ESP without changing it out. T.C.

[tomwnh]

Why not just post it and give us all a chance to learn. Come on T.C., share the wealth!!!!!

[ChiefDog]

Why not just post it and give us all a chance to learn. Come on T.C., share the wealth!!!!!

Now Tom... I am sure he has his reasons.

[Rescue101]

We had two of those on our rigs.The vanes over time get sticky and the primer quits working.What we did was pull the little plug out of the top,installed an oil tank,plumbed them up and now they're an oil type primer rather than the enviornmentally friendly oilless.The up side is they work,everytime,and you don't have to pull them apart every six months to free up the vanes.Hale can't sell you the kit but almost any fire mechanic worth his presence can make the conversion.Simple,inexpensive and effective. T.C.

[chiefengineer11]

We had two of those on our rigs.The vanes over time get sticky and the primer quits working.What we did was pull the little plug out of the top,installed an oil tank,plumbed them up and now they're an oil type primer rather than the enviornmentally friendly oilless.The up side is they work,everytime,and you don't have to pull them apart every six months to free up the vanes.Hale can't sell you the kit but almost any fire mechanic worth his presence can make the conversion.Simple,inexpensive and effective. T.C.

Funny you should mention that. In 1998 the rotary gear primer on our'78 Hahn, Hale QLD125 failed (a whole 'nother story). I replaced it with a Hale oilless primer. When it was new, if you didn't operate it at least every week, it would stick. After a couple of tries, it would break loose and work. Ever since then, it works fine. We have a dry hydrant that includes about 40' lateral and about a 20' lift. It pulls a prime from there every time, no sweat (annual practice). So simple, even FWDbuff can do it.

Stay safe out there, everyone goes home!

[ponebutton]

So...does anyone have any more info about TRIDENT primer? How about Retrofit issues? Freezing issues? Clogging issues?

[Catch22]

Hale actually recommends you use and check the primer weekly. Part of that check is to flush water through it for 10-15 seconds. As the vanes turn, some of the carbon wears off and can collect in the primer and jam the vanes. Flushing them helps get rid of the carbon that collects. Perhaps that is part of your issue?

[npfd801]

So...does anyone have any more info about TRIDENT primer? How about Retrofit issues? Freezing issues? Clogging issues?

I don't know about how much trouble it was, but a department I just sold a rig to had a Trident primer retrofit into an existing pumper. I didn't sell them that pumper nor was I involved in the install, but they're so tickled with the primer that we did a change order to put one on the rig they bought from me...

My discussions with them made it sound like installing the Trident really wasn't that big of a deal. I think (it's been a while since we talked about it) that their mechanic did the install in their station in about a day.

[Catch22]

I don't suppose anyone would know round-about what one of these costs? We've got an older pumper that the primer has gone out on. Hale says it's an antiquated primer and there's no longer parts available. We really don't want to have to mess with spending $1,500 on a primer for a truck we rarely use. I'm curious if this Trident is a more cost-effective alternative.

[Rescue101]

Catch,like I said Hale isn't allowed to tell you what I just did.And your book definition is spot on.However with our water and use conditions,we found that a oiless to oil conversion eliminated the problem. Entirely! No sticking,no screwups,and faster priming with less wear.Do you want a tuna with good taste or a tuna that tastes good? T.C.

[firetruck917]

I have this primer installed on the last 2 truck we have purchased, and retrofitted our other engine when the esp failed. We have had no problems with the primer at all. We will never go back to an electric.
:D

hi all, just wondering if anyone has experience with trident products "AIR PRIME". runs of the air system of trucks, venturi mounted to pump. trying to find an alternative to hale esp primer. we have had nothing but troubles with the new esp on our 2003 engine, 3 times in less than 4 yrs and it wont work now. looking for an alternative. thanks stay safe

[Catch22]

Catch,like I said Hale isn't allowed to tell you what I just did.And your book definition is spot on.However with our water and use conditions,we found that a oiless to oil conversion eliminated the problem. Entirely! No sticking,no screwups,and faster priming with less wear.Do you want a tuna with good taste or a tuna that tastes good? T.C.

I understand what you're saying, and I'm not saying you're not right. Just throwing a thought out for a possible quick fix for a lot of guys. I'm sure you know as well as I do a lot of the fire service doesn't care for their equipment like they should. ;)

[FWDbuff]

So simple, even FWDbuff can do it.

Do those Trident air primers work on under-the-hood sprinkler systems? :eek:

[westofd1]

just to add a little more. we just got said truck retro-fitted with the trident unit. our test & drill with it seems very good. there is little noise compared to the electric units. and there is not a 300 amp draw on electrical system. as for another reply when we first had issues with esp unit a hale rep at factory told me that they hadn't had any complaints about the units and as a matter of fact it was the standard for most manufacturer's. at which time i told him ( politely ) i could tell him at least 2 other departments in a 10 mile radius that have had nothing but troubles as well. after the first rebuild they told us to just pull prime valve after pump had picked prime to flush out primer . it still didn't help. the only good thing is our neighboring department has rebuilt there's 4 times in 3 yrs. then last month after 2 rebuilds i talked to a rep and he sent me the info on converting esp to fluid. its an easy fix. in the info they say to install 2 tanks, 1 for the priming liquid and 1 for the expelled liquid. we discussed it at a meeting about what to do about not being able to trust the esp unit's reliability and decided to go with the trident. our repair shop gave us a few names of departments that had spec'd them on there new trucks and they all were very positive as being the way of the future. if it works out well on this unit it will be retro-fitted to our other engines in the future. sorry for the long post. stay safe. walt

[txgp17]

I'm pushing to add the Trident AirPrime™ for all our new trucks.

One thing has me wondering though.....

NFPA 1901 (2009) 24.12.1* states that the chassis air brake system shall not be used for emergency use applications.

How do we get around that?

I went to the appendix to get some details on the asterisk notation, and it states that the air brake system is not intended rescue air bags, air tools, air reels, and other rescue applications.

I never understood this requirement when it was instituded since chassis air compressors usually have 100% duty cycle ratings. Air brakes fill a HP air bag like a champ.

[npfd801]

I'm pushing to add the Trident AirPrime™ for all our new trucks.

One thing has me wondering though.....

NFPA 1901 (2009) 24.12.1* states that the chassis air brake system shall not be used for emergency use applications.

How do we get around that?

I went to the appendix to get some details on the asterisk notation, and it states that the air brake system is not intended rescue air bags, air tools, air reels, and other rescue applications.

I never understood this requirement when it was instituded since chassis air compressors usually have 100% duty cycle ratings. Air brakes fill a HP air bag like a champ.

But if you specify an independent tank that is specifically for this purpose, and will not drain the air tanks used for braking, does this satisfy the requirements?

[GFPD2005]

You get around it by signing the contract before Jan 1! haha

We specified the Hale ESP and said the Trident Air could be used as an alternative. After reading more and more about the Trident I hope the bidders propose that over the Hale. The air compressor is 18.7 cfm so that should be plenty.

Unless your doing pump and roll operations I dont see how the air primer could be a concern with your brake system.

[chiefengineer11]

You get around it by signing the contract before Jan 1! haha

We specified the Hale ESP and said the Trident Air could be used as an alternative. After reading more and more about the Trident I hope the bidders propose that over the Hale. The air compressor is 18.7 cfm so that should be plenty.

Unless your doing pump and roll operations I dont see how the air primer could be a concern with your brake system.
I wasn't even aware of Trident until they came and made a presentation at our county engineers' association meeting a year or so ago. I was very impressed with its simplicity and there for inherent reliability. Its operating principle is very similar to that of an exhaust primer. If I had been aware of it when we spec'd our Toyne, I'd have asked the members to consider using it. I do get to go to Trident's facility and visit every now and again. Their location is such we'd probably be due there on a second alarm.

[nmfire]

Can someone throw some numbers out there about how much the retrofits cost?

[txgp17]

But if you specify an independent tank that is specifically for this purpose, and will not drain the air tanks used for braking, does this satisfy the requirements?It may, I didn't look at it from that angle. I e-mailed Trident about it. We'll see when they reply.You get around it by signing the contract before Jan 1! hahaThat requirement was part of the 2003 version as well. It's not new.

[GFD940]

If you have any concerns, call Trident. I spec'd the air prime on our new Kool-Aid pumpers but had questions about whether to spec larger tanks to supply the air needed for the primer. They put me straight through to their engineer that designed the airprime (sorry I don't remember his name) and he answered all of my questions promptly. He did state that any compressor on any custom chassis can keep up with the requirements and no additional tanks are necessarry on customs.

We will take delivery of our first engine in January and I will try to let you know how it does. It seemed like a no-brainer for me. I was tired of burned up solenoids and motors so I felt that it was better to spend a little extra up front for the air prime

[Rescue101]

I DID spec an extra tank with ours.Thought being that we have some long/high lifts and a little extra air helps the venturi work better longer. T.C.

[txgp17]

Got this e-mail from Trident today. They were very swift in their reply.

Hi txgp17:

Thanks for your excellent questions on the AirPrime in relation to the 1901 standard. Essentially there is nothing new between the year 2003 and 2009 standard with regard to our interpretation of how the AirPrime meets the standard.

The application of the ENTIRE chapter 24 as defined in 24.1 is ONLY for breathing air systems and utility air systems. We do not run the AirPrime accessory from a breathing system or a utility air system. Rescue tool air applications DO require larger air flows and volumes and should be excluded from running off the air-brake air system.

Rather we look at the chapter 12.3.1 requirements for air accessories such as air-horns, air suspension seats, AirPrime, etc. The requirement here is for a pressure protection valve which ensures that there will always be enough air pressure left in the tank to release the air-brakes and move the truck at any time if necessary. As you may have noticed from our literature we insist on a large enough air-compressor to keep up with the AirPrime requirements so that we can have the air-compressor “keep-up” by itself without relying on or depleting all of the air volume / pressure in the tanks.

The AirPrime system has been available for about 5-years now, and nearly all OEM truck builders have installed at least one. Many OEMs have standardized on the AirPrime so they are also OK with interpreting the standard as I have described here. I served as an alternate on the 1901 committee prior to the 2003 standard and continue to attend all committee meetings as a task team member and the issue of someone trying to apply new chapter 24 (old 25) to the primer has NEVER come-up.

I hope this information is helpful, and let me know if you need anything more at this point in order to feel comfortable or convince others that we do meet the intended requirements of the 1901 in full measure.

Regards,
Rich Teske
TRIDENT EMERGENCY PRODUCTS, LLC
"Tomorrow's Ideas Delivered Today"
2940 Turnpike Drive- Suite # 9
Hatboro, PA 19040
Phone: 215-293-0700 x113
Cell: 610-324-5795
Fax: 215-293-0701
E-mail: rteske at tridentdirect dot com

[westofd1]

just a update on ours. we retrofitted our tanker with the air prime after hale esp died the 2nd time in 2 years. at that time it cost us $1100. to buy and have installed. our tanker runs a 500 gpm hale pump w/6" suction. it works great with no problems to date. it has already outlasted the motor driven primers. we did another upgrade to the unit the end of november, we changed out the 2 barrel air prime for the 3 barrel version to cut down on priming time because of the 6" suction. as for another question about running off service brakes tank, there is a regulator that is installed on the primary tank so it will not drain the tank below 80 psi at anytimepriming. the unit in my opinion should have been available 15 yrs ago. u can also pull a prime and still talk with out screaming while priming. stay safe

[laddertruckgoes]

In Burlington City, their 1978 Hahn with a 1000gpm Hale 2 stage pump has an original air primer. You push this grey thumb button and it makes hissing sounds and primes pretty quickly. Is this the same thing? Does anyone remember what I'm talking about?

[chiefengineer11]

In Burlington City, their 1978 Hahn with a 1000gpm Hale 2 stage pump has an original air primer. You push this grey thumb button and it makes hissing sounds and primes pretty quickly. Is this the same thing? Does anyone remember what I'm talking about?
Sean, that's almost certainly a rotary gear primer driven from an intermediate gear in the pump's transfer case (pump/road shift). It operates by a clutch, most of which were engaged by an air cylinder. If spec'd, Hahn also offered a pull cable as a manual override. They were a bear to pull and engage. If the truck did not have air brakes, the system was the same except that it was done by manifold vacuum instead. We had a vacuum one on our '68 Hahn, and an air one on our '78. We later converted the '68 over to air.

Rotary gear primers can still be had although they are frightfully expensive compared to vane primers. Many old timers say they are still the best. I don't know if Hale still has a clutch drive available or not. Waterous has used electric motors since the '50s. They did have an override setup available which I never learned much about.

[laddertruckgoes]

Sean, that's almost certainly a rotary gear primer driven from an intermediate gear in the pump's transfer case (pump/road shift). It operates by a clutch, most of which were engaged by an air cylinder. If spec'd, Hahn also offered a pull cable as a manual override. They were a bear to pull and engage. If the truck did not have air brakes, the system was the same except that it was done by manifold vacuum instead. We had a vacuum one on our '68 Hahn, and an air one on our '78. We later converted the '68 over to air.

Rotary gear primers can still be had although they are frightfully expensive compared to vane primers. Many old timers say they are still the best. I don't know if Hale still has a clutch drive available or not. Waterous has used electric motors since the '50s. They did have an override setup available which I never learned much about.

Awesome... I knew you would bite on that one. I said old and Hahn in the same post. lol

That damn Hahn would pull a draft from anywere through anything. 6-71 motor and allison slush box. What a loud and distinctive truck. I swear it would be the one rig to ever suck 1500gpm out of a puddle 30 feet away - and it's only a 1000gpm pump. As long as you checked the gas and filled the oil.

[ffmedic20]

I used to run a '75 Hahn HCP15 with hale pump and it had an AIR primer. when you pushed the button, it mad a his. there was no primer motor or oil tank.

[chiefengineer11]

I used to run a '75 Hahn HCP15 with hale pump and it had an AIR primer. when you pushed the button, it mad a his. there was no primer motor or oil tank.
When you pushed the button on those, the hiss you heard was the air flowing through the piston that engaged the clutch. I believe that you also heard a growl and you knew that the pump had gotten its prime when the growl changed pitch.

[ffmedic20]

negative sir, back then we were told it was a venturi. there was no growl.

[chiefengineer11]

negative sir, back then we were told it was a venturi. there was no growl.
Any idea who made it? I'm not able to find anything on it. I don't think Hale made anything like that, nor would Hahn have. The only other thing I could think of would have been Barton American's intake manifold vacuum primer (gasoline engines only). But your description of its operation doesn't sound like that, and since Hahn was strictly a Hale builder I'd be very surprised if they would have used it.

[ffmedic20]

the button had the hale name on it. when we tried to get it on trucks since that one i heard we couldnt get it for some reason. all other engines had electric primers