Are you tired of the Left and the Right?

[MarcusKspn]

Questions for all the Democrats and the Republicans on here:

1) Are you happy with the direction YOUR party is heading? Yes/No/Why?
(please only talk about your own party)

2) Would you vote for a member of the other party if you agreed with that persons views?

3) Do you think that conditions might be right for a major third party movement?

Please, if at all possible, keep this from turning into a: My party sucks, but your party has herpes, mudfest.

My answers:

1) No, I am not. (Rep) I don't like that there is a lack of accountability from our reps in congress to the people that voted for them. I don't like that there is a lack of accountability from the executive branch to the legislative and judicial branches. I do believe that they are to be held accountable to one another. Checks and Balances. The people that we elected to Washington, DC have forgotten what they promised to us, and are more worried about scratching each others back, then taking care of us. I believe it is a little better at the State level, maybe because they are actually close enough to their electorate to remember where they came from.

2) Yes, have before, and will again.

3) Absolutely. They Republican controlled White House and the Democratic controlled Congress both have approval ratings that are crap. I think the Country is really fed-up with our political process. I believe that most people have a political view that lies somewhere between the absolute left/right war that the parties play against each other. During the last 8 years I felt like I often had to vote based on a feeling of "Who do I dislike less, instead of who do I like more". If there are more parties then they will have to fight harder to win our votes. If supply/demand works to bring me a higher quality consumer product, it will work in bringing me a higher quality politician. Right now I believe that the mindset of many politicians is this: "I might be a scumbag, but I know that my people will never vote for a Rep/Dem, no matter how good they are." More people vote for American Idol/You think you can dance/etc than vote in politics period. If there are more people, there will be some compromise in Washington, instead of people voting against bills, just because the other party came up with it first.

My 0.02 cents.

[SapphyreBlues]

1.) I'm a republican and I don't like how things are going in the White House. I understand this is war time, and certain info can't be handed out to the public, but they do need to be more accountable. As for the direction, as a whole, I like the way it is going.

2.) I certainly would. I may be a republican but if a democrat could do a better job, then that person has my vote. I vote for who's best for the people.

3.) Conditions couldn't be better for a 3rd party. While I like the way the reps are going, truthfully, all politicians (both sides) have lost touch with the American reality. And the reality is that a lot of Americans are just making ends meet. And what they do manage to save up for retirement...well I won't even mention health care. :eek:

If they could get someone who represents the masses, that person would be voted in by a landslide.

[Raughammer1]

1) Are you happy with the direction YOUR party is heading? Yes/No/Why?

No and Yes. The Republicans have done a GREAT job with the economy. I cant really picture it doing any better than it is doing right now, i mean we are STRONG. Also the Republicans were able to get two excellent supreme court justices installed and that will pay conservative dividends for decades to come. Taxes: wow, what can i say? They are low and i love it. Lastly they have done a great job with the war on terror. We are as safe as can be expected with the holes a free country will have in its armor.

Now point blank: they have spent too much and Bush has only rarely used his power of Veto to keep spending in check. Thats just wrong but where the Republicans have let me down the most is on the illegal immigrant issue. They, well the president most of all has turned a deaf ear to our plight. The American people want the problem fixed but all the leftist republican party want to do is ingore those who are suffering in Chicago, the south and California. The problem is BAD and getting worse but the govt. just ignores us and plods ahead. The repubs have lost BIG time support from their more ardent supporters over this issue.

2) Would you vote for a member of the other party if you agreed with that persons views?
Sure, but i cannot see a democrat ever being that person. Maybe a libertarian, but not a democrat. The conservative democrats of old are long gone.

3) Do you think that conditions might be right for a major third party movement? Sure, but i doubt that will happen. It is just too expensive and risky to jump ship from the two big partys.

This country is hell bent on becoming a country of socialist wimps.

[hwoods]

No. As a Republican, I feel that the G.O.P. is headed toward being only for the Rich and Famous.

Yes. Absolutely. I have never voted a straight party ticket, the attributes of the individual candidate are far more important to me than party loyalty.

YES! And where do I sign up?? Lets look at what I want in a Party Platform:

PERSONAL ACCOUNTABILITY: You spill hot Coffee, your fault, you knew it was hot, you can't sue. You can be called Sloppy in public though.

WAR: Someone crawls out of a hole and attacks us, we wipe them off the face of the Earth. Period.

ECONOMY: Major reform of our entire economic system. Too many people make money by doing nothing constructive.

GOVERNMENT REGULATION: Strong regulation of several types of industries is long overdue, such as hydrocarbon motor fuels and electricity.

ENVIRONMENTAL: The Sky is NOT Falling, The Earth is NOT Warming, and a lot of Greenies belong in a mental institution.

IMMIGRATION: There have been legal requirements to enter this country for a hundred years or more, Enforce those requirements, and deport anyone not complying.

LANGUAGE: Make English our REQUIRED Language, Require business to end multi-lingual packaging on goods sold in America.

COFFEE: Make Coffee our national drink.......... I'm off for another Cup, Be back later with more..........:)

[scfire86]

ECONOMY: Major reform of our entire economic system. Too many people make money by doing nothing constructive.

You may want to rethink that one. That was the primary focus of Karl Marx and his attacks of the owners of capital.

Marx didn't believe that someone who only owned capital but didn't actively do anything productive should not be allowed to profit off the effort (aka labor) of others.

[kprsn1]

1) No, I'm neither Dem or Rep but I see both parties continuing to move farther and farther to the left and to the right leaving no middle ground to resolve issues.

2) Absolutely, I've never voted a straight ticket in my life.

3) Yes, and here it is: The Common Sense Party.
The Common Sense Party was formed because a bunch of us are completely sick of normal politics and feel that no one represents us, the Internet-literate, vaguely libertarian-minded (yet more practical) people with common sense and not just prejudices. We're socially liberal, but we work hard for our paychecks and would like to keep them, too.

Democrats want to raise your taxes and then use it to regulate the size of toilets, establish the death penalty for smoking tobacco (redundant), ban people from saying unpopular things about other ethnic groups, and give our good parking spaces to Wood Owls.

Republicans want to ban anything that's even remotely fun, refuse to apply the lessons that Prohibition taught us about banning drugs, and teach kids about "creationism." Plus, they're just sort of scary.

Both groups deserve to be beaten senseless with a large stick. Isn't there any room left in politics for people with a bit of common sense?

Here's the platform so far:
 Government should leave us alone.
 F*%@ people with no sense of humor.
:D

[DennisTheMenace]

I don't like that there is a lack of accountability from our reps in congress to the people that voted for them.
Right here you totally lose me. Thanks to the First Amendment we here about most of the screw ups in congress, and we can see what is going on for ourselves if we want to take the time and look at the almost totally open records of what goes on up on Capitol Hill. Every representative is than held accountable every two years, and every senator is held accountable every six years. The people that send them there can hold them TOTALLY accountable for the job they do or don't, if they chose to do so!

[DennisTheMenace]

Oh yeah, ands a third party is not likely to ever happen in this country again. To begin with, Third Party and "Independent" candidates do not take the time to build up from the grassroots, they try for the big prize and don't take the time to build a supportive base in local government and the legislature. Next, the major parties are not stupid, anytime one of those groups has even mild success, the party that is closest to that side of the political spectrum will adopt their ideas as their own. The only way for a new party to join the top would be for a serious and far reaching scandle to take hold and distory one of the current parties.

[scfire86]

1) Are you happy with the direction YOUR party is heading? Yes/No/Why?

No and Yes. The Republicans have done a GREAT job with the economy. I cant really picture it doing any better than it is doing right now, i mean we are STRONG. Also the Republicans were able to get two excellent supreme court justices installed and that will pay conservative dividends for decades to come. Taxes: wow, what can i say? They are low and i love it. Lastly they have done a great job with the war on terror. We are as safe as can be expected with the holes a free country will have in its armor.

Now point blank: they have spent too much and Bush has only rarely used his power of Veto to keep spending in check. Thats just wrong but where the Republicans have let me down the most is on the illegal immigrant issue. They, well the president most of all has turned a deaf ear to our plight. The American people want the problem fixed but all the leftist republican party want to do is ingore those who are suffering in Chicago, the south and California. The problem is BAD and getting worse but the govt. just ignores us and plods ahead. The repubs have lost BIG time support from their more ardent supporters over this issue.

This post is typical of what is wrong with the conservative mindset. Everything is going great. Taxes are low, the economy is doing well. But spending is out of control. Why do you believe the economy is doing well? Because the fiscal policies of our conservative president has been to borrow trillions of dollars so you can live well and push the price tag off to someone else. The immediate tax rate may be low, but as Milton Friedman once said the true amount of taxation is the amount of the federal budget. It is either big taxes now or bigger taxes later. And this president has given us unprecedented bigger taxes later.

[MarcusKspn]

Right here you totally lose me. Thanks to the First Amendment we here about most of the screw ups in congress, and we can see what is going on for ourselves if we want to take the time and look at the almost totally open records of what goes on up on Capitol Hill. Every representative is than held accountable every two years, and every senator is held accountable every six years. The people that send them there can hold them TOTALLY accountable for the job they do or don't, if they chose to do so!

Maybe to me the lack of accountability is a combination of my experiences. I find that many politicians promise lots of things to stand apart from their counterparts when it comes to pick your candidate for your party (primary is a good example right now). You base your pick on what they say makes them a new and improved democrat/republican. You vote for them, and then they go to DC. And I usually see then that they revert back to doing what is best for the party, and not for the people. For me the lack of accountability comes into effect because they feel that as an incumbent they no longer have to focus on making sure the people from their party like them. They no longer have to prove to us why they are the better Rep/Dem. They know that even if they stabbed us in the back, the majority of their party will still vote for them again, because a bastard son-of-a-bitch Republican is still better than an honest Democrat (or vice versa). This is the reason for my three questions. I think the days of the Yellow-Dog Democrats and Republicans are going away. When the politicians realize that we are no longer above voting for a member of the opposite party or for a member of a minority party, then they might feel that they have to be more accountable towards their electorate.

A couple of more questions/observations: There always seems to be a larger turnout in municipal/state elections, than federal elections. Do we not care about the federal level? Is Washington, DC to far away from our house to seem Important to our everyday live (A course of being a huge country maybe?). Or have they gone so crazy out there that we have a hard time recognizing that they are supposed to be a part of our life.

Are we afraid as a country to let our displeasure know and hold people accountable. France might look crazy to us when they have a huge riot every other week (maybe not quite that often), but their government is afraid of their people and they will work on keeping them happy. We have not had bona-fide riots (peaceful or not peaceful) in this country for quite a while. Have me as a country become too afraid of the government and don't want the feds to have a reason to keep a file on us?

PS: I am really happy so far to see this thread stay on course. I was afraid that it was gonna be a Dem/Rep Hatefest by post #5.

[MarcusKspn]

This post is typical of what is wrong with the conservative mindset. Everything is going great. Taxes are low, the economy is doing well. But spending is out of control. Why do you believe the economy is doing well? Because the fiscal policies of our conservative president has been to borrow trillions of dollars so you can live well and push the price tag off to someone else. The immediate tax rate may be low, but as Milton Friedman once said the true amount of taxation is the amount of the federal budget. It is either big taxes now or bigger taxes later. And this president has given us unprecedented bigger taxes later.

Please, Please, Please.......

To Everyone: Try to keep this on YOUR thought about YOUR own party. We have enough threads about why your party is better than my party (both dem and rep). The goal of this thread is to focus on YOUR thoughts about your OWN party, not to try to change everyone else's mind. Tell us about your believes, instead of attacking mine or others.

scfire86: I would honestly love to hear your answers to the three questions I originally posted. You have let us know why you don't agree with the other posters, and that is fine. But please tell me about your thoughts about the party you identify or are registered with. This is not meant in any way as an attack on you, your party, or your believes.

[MarcusKspn]

Oh yeah, ands a third party is not likely to ever happen in this country again. To begin with, Third Party and "Independent" candidates do not take the time to build up from the grassroots, they try for the big prize and don't take the time to build a supportive base in local government and the legislature. Next, the major parties are not stupid, anytime one of those groups has even mild success, the party that is closest to that side of the political spectrum will adopt their ideas as their own. The only way for a new party to join the top would be for a serious and far reaching scandle to take hold and distory one of the current parties.

Do you think it will really have to be a serious and far reaching scandal, or can slower change happen? If we believe that the Big Two are so far out of touch with everyday Americans, can a third party emerge? (Sort of a "None of the Above" movement)

And I do agree with the fact that big parties absorb little parties, and to me that defeats the purpose of having third parties. This will be an obstacle we will have to overcome. If we have more smaller parties, then there will have to be an mindset of "If we want to have a majority to pass a bill, we will have to compromise with the members of the other parties." It seems we spend over half of our Congress passing bills to null-and-void bills that the other guys passes last session.

[JohnVBFD]

We used to be a government that was for the people. Over time and the erroding away of personal responsibility, we have become a government that needs to control and regulate anrything.

No matter what party controls the government, no matter what party holds any seat, it will all be about the samething. What can I the politician do to make as much money right now as possible? How little can I do right now that will enable me to write a book of how great I am/was later?

Power corrupts. Thre are a few good politicans left out there. But for a politican of ANY party to stand before the People of the United States and say that it is "HIS government to do with as he pleases" is a disgrace and slap in the face of the People.

Until Americans wake up and read their Consitution and learn what the Federal government can, is supposed to, and not supposed to do will there be hope for ANY party and for reform and regulation.

How many Americans really remember that 10th Amendment. If it is not in this document, that power/right is reserved for the states.

[DennisTheMenace]

If you don't like the way things are going, then get involved with your local party and change things. If that does nto work, run yourself. There is total accountability every two years for Reps, Four for the WH, and six for Senators, it is really that simple. THe process still works in this country, now go and change the substance.

[SapphyreBlues]

No. As a Republican, I feel that the G.O.P. is headed toward being only for the Rich and Famous.

Yes. Absolutely. I have never voted a straight party ticket, the attributes of the individual candidate are far more important to me than party loyalty.

YES! And where do I sign up?? Lets look at what I want in a Party Platform:

PERSONAL ACCOUNTABILITY: You spill hot Coffee, your fault, you knew it was hot, you can't sue. You can be called Sloppy in public though.

WAR: Someone crawls out of a hole and attacks us, we wipe them off the face of the Earth. Period.

ECONOMY: Major reform of our entire economic system. Too many people make money by doing nothing constructive.

GOVERNMENT REGULATION: Strong regulation of several types of industries is long overdue, such as hydrocarbon motor fuels and electricity.

ENVIRONMENTAL: The Sky is NOT Falling, The Earth is NOT Warming, and a lot of Greenies belong in a mental institution.

IMMIGRATION: There have been legal requirements to enter this country for a hundred years or more, Enforce those requirements, and deport anyone not complying.

LANGUAGE: Make English our REQUIRED Language, Require business to end multi-lingual packaging on goods sold in America.

COFFEE: Make Coffee our national drink.......... I'm off for another Cup, Be back later with more..........:)

Hey! You look like an American citizen of at least 35 years of age. Maybe we should just use you as a write-in on the '08 ballot :D

And don't scoff at that idea because write-in's can win an election. I know that Ben Dover (you know who I'm talking about :rolleyes: ) won our senior year class presidency by being wrote in :eek: As you might have guessed, the staff/teachers were NOT amused.

[Raughammer1]

This post is typical of what is wrong with the conservative mindset. Everything is going great. Taxes are low, the economy is doing well. But spending is out of control. Why do you believe the economy is doing well? Because the fiscal policies of our conservative president has been to borrow trillions of dollars so you can live well and push the price tag off to someone else. The immediate tax rate may be low, but as Milton Friedman once said the true amount of taxation is the amount of the federal budget. It is either big taxes now or bigger taxes later. And this president has given us unprecedented bigger taxes later.

LOL, what a huge load of male cow manure. This kind of thinking, the tax the people into prosperity mantra cracks me up. Right now America is reaping unprecedented levels of taxable income. It has been called a tsunami of money that is pouring into the federal coffers, and all this with VERY low tax rates (low, historically speaking).

The idea is to lower taxes and let industry, the free market system go. And it is working GREAT. I just wish the ignorant out there would go check thier facts before posting how bad things are.

The economy is doing great, revenues are up, the economy is growing nicely and unemployment is scary low.

Life is good in America right now.

[Raughammer1]

Please, Please, Please.......

To Everyone: Try to keep this on YOUR thought about YOUR own party. We have enough threads about why your party is better than my party (both dem and rep). The goal of this thread is to focus on YOUR thoughts about your OWN party, not to try to change everyone else's mind. Tell us about your believes, instead of attacking mine or others.

scfire86: I would honestly love to hear your answers to the three questions I originally posted. You have let us know why you don't agree with the other posters, and that is fine. But please tell me about your thoughts about the party you identify or are registered with. This is not meant in any way as an attack on you, your party, or your believes.
Your right, i fired back with out scrolling down,...sorry when i get shot at i tend to shoot back.

My apologies...

[Raughammer1]

We used to be a government that was for the people. Over time and the erroding away of personal responsibility, we have become a government that needs to control and regulate anrything.


Sorry man, that might have been true about 1790 or so, but it has not been about the people for a VERY long time. Surely not since Lincoln trampled all over the Constitution.


No matter what party controls the government, no matter what party holds any seat, it will all be about the samething. What can I the politician do to make as much money right now as possible? How little can I do right now that will enable me to write a book of how great I am/was later?


You think so? You think that every person who runs for office in this country is a crook? Every single one?

Wow...


Until Americans wake up and read their Consitution and learn what the Federal government can, is supposed to, and not supposed to do will there be hope for ANY party and for reform and regulation.

Amigo, folks are so distracted by other things and so caught up in their own little world, i doubt seriously that there will be a rising up and or any major change in the political landscape in America any time soon.



How many Americans really remember that 10th Amendment. If it is not in this document, that power/right is reserved for the states.

Sir the 10th amendment died in the 1860's...

[scfire86]

LOL, what a huge load of male cow manure. This kind of thinking, the tax the people into prosperity mantra cracks me up. Right now America is reaping unprecedented levels of taxable income. It has been called a tsunami of money that is pouring into the federal coffers, and all this with VERY low tax rates (low, historically speaking).
I agree. There has been a tsunami of revenue into the federal coffers. For some reason, this group of fiscal conservatives had no problem spending that cash and continuing to flatten out the federal credit card to run up the national debt at an unprecedented rate.

The idea is to lower taxes and let industry, the free market system go. And it is working GREAT. I just wish the ignorant out there would go check thier facts before posting how bad things are.
Yes. I read Atlas Shrugged when I was in JC classes. It is a great work of fiction. If you truly believe the free market exists without interference from those you support you are living in as big a dream world as Ayn Rand. Business is constantly getting or asking government to interfere in the marketplace to give it a competitive advantage in any number of forms.

The economy is doing great, revenues are up, the economy is growing nicely and unemployment is scary low.

Life is good in America right now.
All of what you claim is easy to do when you're borrowing trillions of dollars and letting someone else pay the bill. Growing the economy with a balanced budget takes an ability to govern that this administration has never been able to fathom.

[ThNozzleman]

The idea is to lower taxes and let industry, the free market system go.
Oh, it's going alright...to other countries. It's time to end the free ride for big corporations.

[kprsn1]

Oh, it's going alright...to other countries. It's time to end the free ride for big corporations.

I agree with you Nozzleman but how do we stop it? NAFTA and other regulations make it too easy for companies to leave the US for cheap labor in other countries. The trade deficit is unbelievable.

[Dave1983]

Im WAY beyond tired of both. :rolleyes:

[Dave1983]

No. As a Republican, I feel that the G.O.P. is headed toward being only for the Rich and Famous.

Yes. Absolutely. I have never voted a straight party ticket, the attributes of the individual candidate are far more important to me than party loyalty.

YES! And where do I sign up?? Lets look at what I want in a Party Platform:

PERSONAL ACCOUNTABILITY: You spill hot Coffee, your fault, you knew it was hot, you can't sue. You can be called Sloppy in public though.

WAR: Someone crawls out of a hole and attacks us, we wipe them off the face of the Earth. Period.

ECONOMY: Major reform of our entire economic system. Too many people make money by doing nothing constructive.

GOVERNMENT REGULATION: Strong regulation of several types of industries is long overdue, such as hydrocarbon motor fuels and electricity.

ENVIRONMENTAL: The Sky is NOT Falling, The Earth is NOT Warming, and a lot of Greenies belong in a mental institution.

IMMIGRATION: There have been legal requirements to enter this country for a hundred years or more, Enforce those requirements, and deport anyone not complying.

LANGUAGE: Make English our REQUIRED Language, Require business to end multi-lingual packaging on goods sold in America.

COFFEE: Make Coffee our national drink.......... I'm off for another Cup, Be back later with more..........:)

Your my hero...

Harve for President!:D

[SapphyreBlues]

Your my hero...

Harve for President!:D

I'm campaigning to put him down as a write in :D

[Raughammer1]

I agree with you Nozzleman but how do we stop it? NAFTA and other regulations make it too easy for companies to leave the US for cheap labor in other countries.

*sigh* ok guys, let me try and explain it this way: you can MAKE a company leave your country but you cannot MAKE it stay.

You can pass laws, regulations, policies, tariffs, what ever to make life onerous and difficult to conduct business and yes you can do that enough that you drive them away.

But how do you MAKE them stay in a country? Point blank, you cant.

All you can do is ease restrictions and make it easy to do business and in general create a climate that is good for business. If they can make money in the environment that you create then they will stay in that country and others will move to that country.

In todays global economy it is easy to drive a business to greener pastures but if the business climate in a certain country is too hostile, the business will relocate to a more profitable country.


It has been quoted in this thread: "...it too easy for companies to leave the US "

Sir, what would you have them do? Force the companies to stay in this country, and how would you do that? All you can do is entice them to stay by making it profitable for them to stay. Business is about money...if business can make more money somewhere else.... they will.

[hwoods]

Oh, it's going alright...to other countries. It's time to end the free ride for big corporations.

AND tie them down to keep them here........... Seriously, SOMETHING has to be done to keep Big Business from sending everything overseas. Period.:mad:

[scfire86]

But how do you MAKE them stay in a country? Point blank, you cant.
Sure you can. You insist that imported goods be produced by companies that have the same labor, safety, and environmental restrictions as those produced here.

All you can do is ease restrictions and make it easy to do business and in general create a climate that is good for business. If they can make money in the environment that you create then they will stay in that country and others will move to that country.
See above post.

In todays global economy it is easy to drive a business to greener pastures but if the business climate in a certain country is too hostile, the business will relocate to a more profitable country.
See first post.

Sir, what would you have them do? Force the companies to stay in this country, and how would you do that? All you can do is entice them to stay by making it profitable for them to stay. Business is about money...if business can make more money somewhere else.... they will.
See first post.

[RoughRider]

Oh, it's going alright...to other countries. It's time to end the free ride for big corporations.

Don’t know about where you live but NYC would be bankrupt in a year if its coffers weren’t filled yearly with the taxes of the big corporations and Wall Street. Don't believe me? Simply read a Moody’s or S&P report. It's undeniable.

But how do you MAKE them stay in a country? Point blank, you cant.


100% correct. Away from my profession I own a US Patent for a baby product. I have this product manufactured in Hong Kong and not the U.S. because of the huge difference of manufacturing costs. If the cost of production was nominal I would have had it manufactured in the States but the cost was alot more than triple. I'm in business to maximize my investor’s profits and my own. I'm not a charitable organization. I took a huge risk laying out a huge amount of my own money for the start up costs. I would be a **** poor entrepreneur if I didn’t maximize profits for taking the risk.

Corporations have an obligation to maximize the profits of its share holders. If doing business is cost prohibitive here in the US because of labor costs, taxation or what ever those corporations have a fiduciary responsibility to seek a more productive way a doing business even if it means outsourcing business over sea’s.

Originally Posted by Raughammer1
But how do you MAKE them stay in a country? Point blank, you cant.

Sure you can. You insist that imported goods be produced by companies that have the same labor, safety, and environmental restrictions as those produced here.

My end buyer doesnt give a rats *** about uncompetitive US manufacuring costs. They want my quality product at a affordable price. That would be impossible given the government restrictions you imply. Free markets should remain Free. Socialism and the Free market system cannot exsist in the same arena and be productive.

[SapphyreBlues]

AND tie them down to keep them here........... Seriously, SOMETHING has to be done to keep Big Business from sending everything overseas. Period.:mad:

I wish they would. I just through having a live chat with a tech from my antivirus company because it decided to deactivate itself :rolleyes: Anyways the guy's name was Mustafa, so I'm seriously guessing he wasn't from around here. But thank God he didn't ask me what it is that I'm "wishing" to do :rolleyes: Norton/symantec isn't a major company, but it's an American one nonetheless. Big business is making money like crazy. Why pay an American to do tech support when they can pay Mustafa and Co. 9 1/2 cents an hour to do it instead? Personally I'd rather pay an American more money and know that I've helped out my country than to send everything somewhere else.

[hwoods]

I have an Absolute, Iron Clad way to bring Business, Large and Small back to U.S. Soil. Period. If the American people would buy it, my plan would have U.S.Bigbucks Corp. screaming to relocate back here tomorrow. Guaranteed.
Here's the Plan:

1. Eliminate all Product Liability Laws.
2. Eliminate all Environmental laws.
3. Eliminate OSHA.
4. Eliminate Labor Unions
5. Lower the minimum wage to about $2.00 per DAY.

Do the items above, and Big Business will be back. IF THAT IS WHAT AMERICA WANTS, THAT'S WHAT IT WILL TAKE.

[scfire86]

I have an Absolute, Iron Clad way to bring Business, Large and Small back to U.S. Soil. Period. If the American people would buy it, my plan would have U.S.Bigbucks Corp. screaming to relocate back here tomorrow. Guaranteed.
Here's the Plan:

1. Eliminate all Product Liability Laws.
2. Eliminate all Environmental laws.
3. Eliminate OSHA.
4. Eliminate Labor Unions
5. Lower the minimum wage to about $2.00 per DAY.

Do the items above, and Big Business will be back. IF THAT IS WHAT AMERICA WANTS, THAT'S WHAT IT WILL TAKE.
This is a joke right? Along with this comes the treatment of the individual as chattel labor like it was at the turn of the last century.

NO THANKS!!!

[ThNozzleman]

Don’t know about where you live but NYC would be bankrupt in a year if its coffers weren’t filled yearly with the taxes of the big corporations and Wall Street. Don't believe me? Simply read a Moody’s or S&P report. It's undeniable.

There is no way major corporations in America pay their fair share.
http://www.ctj.org/corpfed04an.pdf

[hwoods]

This is a joke right? Along with this comes the treatment of the individual as chattel labor like it was at the turn of the last century.

NO THANKS!!!

No Shot taken at you, my friend. Just illustrating what the problem is, as I see it. Everything that I offered IS ALREADY THE NORM ELSEWHERE. See where I'm going with this...........:)

[scfire86]

No Shot taken at you, my friend. Just illustrating what the problem is, as I see it. Everything that I offered IS ALREADY THE NORM ELSEWHERE. See where I'm going with this...........:)
And I doubt you would want to work in any of those places.

[Raughammer1]

Don’t know about where you live but NYC would be bankrupt in a year if its coffers weren’t filled yearly with the taxes of the big corporations and Wall Street. Don't believe me? Simply read a Moody’s or S&P report. It's undeniable.

100% correct. Away from my profession I own a US Patent for a baby product. I have this product manufactured in Hong Kong and not the U.S. because of the huge difference of manufacturing costs. If the cost of production was nominal I would have had it manufactured in the States but the cost was alot more than triple. I'm in business to maximize my investor’s profits and my own. I'm not a charitable organization. I took a huge risk laying out a huge amount of my own money for the start up costs. I would be a **** poor entrepreneur if I didn’t maximize profits for taking the risk.

Corporations have an obligation to maximize the profits of its share holders. If doing business is cost prohibitive here in the US because of labor costs, taxation or what ever those corporations have a fiduciary responsibility to seek a more productive way a doing business even if it means outsourcing business over sea’s.

My end buyer doesnt give a rats *** about uncompetitive US manufacuring costs. They want my quality product at a affordable price. That would be impossible given the government restrictions you imply. Free markets should remain Free. Socialism and the Free market system cannot exsist in the same arena and be productive.


Ahhh.. a voice of expericance spoken with logic and using real examples based upon expericance and not passionate but fantasy like wishing.

You can entice, not force business to stay here. You can promote, not bludgeon business to prosper and share thier success with this country.

Or you can bring out the big sticks to MAKE them do as you wish and then watch them all break for others countries with less onerous business laws and restrictions.

Simple answers for comlpex problems rarely work.

You cannot FORCE business companies to stay in America, you can only make it profitable enough for them to do business here so that it makes sense for them to stay and operate here.

It is impossible to FORCE business to stay in America. The more laws you enact to make that pipe dream happen by force, the faster they will relocate to Ireland, Dubai, and Singapore, etc. etc. etc...

[scfire86]

It is impossible to FORCE business to stay in America. The more laws you enact to make that pipe dream happen by force, the faster they will relocate to Ireland, Dubai, and Singapore, etc. etc. etc...
But you can do what other countries do. You can FORCE business to pay to have access to American markets.

[Raughammer1]

But you can do what other countries do. You can FORCE business to pay to have access to American markets.
Ok, lets follow that line of reasoning.

That keeps jobs here..how?
That stops companies from moving their head quarters to another country like the Caymans, Dubai, etc., etc., how?

I'm all ears.

[scfire86]

Ok, lets follow that line of reasoning.

That keeps jobs here..how?
That stops companies from moving their head quarters to another country like the Caymans, Dubai, etc., etc., how?

I'm all ears.
The same way it keeps jobs in other countries with protectionist policies.

How many ears do you need?

A nation places tariffs on imported goods that makes their price so high it becomes economically feasible for someone to produce those goods domestically because people would have the incentive to enter the marketplace.

Don't worry. Thanks to Bush the idiot, that option has been pretty much removed from being used against China.

China threatens "nuclear option" of dollar sales. (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/money/main.jhtml?xml=/money/2007/08/07/bcnchina107a.xml)

I hope that helps.

[ThNozzleman]

How many ears do you need?

No doubt. :rolleyes:

[HotTrotter]

Well it is like this, business provides a benefit to the community. Without business there are no jobs (except for public servants). Without jobs taxpayers don't pay the taxes (there goes the public servant jobs) and they don't buy stuff. Like it or not, business is just as vital to the community as the FD and PD, maybe more so. My opinion, is that since business provides jobs and opportunity to the local community they should not be taxed at all. And Harve is sort of right about his suggestions.

1. Eliminate all Product Liability Laws.
2. Eliminate all Environmental laws.
3. Eliminate OSHA.
4. Eliminate Labor Unions
5. Lower the minimum wage to about $2.00 per DAY.

These things have gotten overly oppressive. There needs to be a middle ground. How about stopping frivolous product liability suits? How about common sense Environmental, OSHA, and Labor laws. Labor Unions in this day and age are a problem. As for the minimum wage - that is a farce. Nobody works for minimum anymore (except the illegal aliens), even McDonald's pays above min.


But in keeping with the topic, there is no left for the Nozz, from where he sits everyone is to the right. :D

[scfire86]

1. Eliminate all Product Liability Laws.
2. Eliminate all Environmental laws.
3. Eliminate OSHA.
4. Eliminate Labor Unions
5. Lower the minimum wage to about $2.00 per DAY.

That was tried around the turn of the last century. And all the things you say we should get rid of exist today because of it.

[HotTrotter]

That was tried around the turn of the last century. And all the things you say we should get rid of exist today because of it.

As I said, we don't need to eliminate, but rather modify those things so they make sense. Except for the minimum wage, there is an idea that needs to die. And really, as stated in another thread, it cost twice as much to live in Chicago as it does in a lot of other places, so how can you apply a universal minimum wage? :confused:

[scfire86]

As I said, we don't need to eliminate, but rather modify those things so they make sense.
Good gawd. Do you even remember what you said a minute ago?

Excerpt from your earlier post:

1. Eliminate all Product Liability Laws.
2. Eliminate all Environmental laws.
3. Eliminate OSHA.
4. Eliminate Labor Unions
5. Lower the minimum wage to about $2.00 per DAY.

Please tell me where in there you stated they should be "modified?"

[GodSendRain]

Sure you can. You insist that imported goods be produced by companies that have the same labor, safety, and environmental restrictions as those produced here.


Well, that would eliminate practically all imports from the Asian mainland.

I wouldn't shed any tears though - I'm just getting tired of gambling on which dog food to buy.

[scfire86]

Well, that would eliminate practically all imports from the Asian mainland.

I wouldn't shed any tears though - I'm just getting tired of gambling on which dog food to buy.
It would certainly level the playing field. In a straight up fight, Americans still do very well in their productivity.

[HotTrotter]

Good gawd. Do you even remember what you said a minute ago?

Excerpt from your earlier post:



Please tell me where in there you stated they should be "modified?"

The rest of the story.. Please do not take things out of context for the purpose of spin. Did you ever notice that when you flush a toilet it also spins to the left? :D

1. Eliminate all Product Liability Laws.
2. Eliminate all Environmental laws.
3. Eliminate OSHA.
4. Eliminate Labor Unions
5. Lower the minimum wage to about $2.00 per DAY.

These things have gotten overly oppressive. There needs to be a middle ground. How about stopping frivolous product liability suits? How about common sense Environmental, OSHA, and Labor laws. Labor Unions in this day and age are a problem. As for the minimum wage - that is a farce. Nobody works for minimum anymore (except the illegal aliens), even McDonald's pays above min.

[scfire86]

The rest of the story.. Please do not take things out of context for the purpose of spin.
Hey Trots. They're your words, not mine.

[SamuelFire]

Trots,

Does it spin to the left when you are "Down Under"?

Your idiotic statement is that no one is paying minimum wage (except to illegals), then what is the point of lowering it?

We can lower it to what a waiter or server makes and then you won't tip them.

You want business's to do as they please; if they desire to hire illegal's why should the government not allow it?

Your new tag line "Power to the Business's"

[HotTrotter]

Trots,

Does it spin to the left when you are "Down Under"?

Sure does, but that is there, this is America where things are better.

Your idiotic statement is that no one is paying minimum wage (except to illegals), then what is the point of lowering it?

We can lower it to what a waiter or server makes and then you won't tip them.

What is the point of raising it? And you are right, the minimum wage is idiotic. It isn't even properly implemented. How can anyone say the minimum wage in the big cities should be the same as in rural America?



You want business's to do as they please; if they desire to hire illegal's why should the government not allow it?

Your new tag line "Power to the Business's"

Business's provide a benefit to the community. However, our society believes these businesses need to just give and give and give. I will point to GE in Schenectady NY, the turbine and generator division. The city has taxed the facility into obsolescence. GE has moved a large portion of the operation out of the area. What used to be the life blood of the city and it's residents is now nothing. And who can blame the CEO and board of directors? They have to answer to the stock holders who want to see profits. FYI, these stock holders include many of the people with 401k plans. Unlike government organizations, businesses need to show a profit. When our society and the Unions overburden them they pack up shop and go elsewhere. If you want more evidence look at the carpet industry in Amsterdam NY or the Leather industry of Fulton County in NY. OSHA, Environmental regulations, and the Unions drove these industries out of the areas leaving them economically depressed. All 3 of these areas are scrambling to bring businesses back into the areas, I wish them luck.

[scfire86]

OSHA, Environmental regulations, and the Unions drove these industries out of the areas leaving them economically depressed.
Damn. Clean air, water, and a safe working environments are such a bother.

[HotTrotter]

Damn. Clean air, water, and a safe working environments are such a bother.

Yup, but there is something known as too much of a good thing. For sure we shouldn't be dumping stuff into our rivers and streams. But in some cases the water going back is cleaner than the water that comes out. As for Clean air, well it cleans itself. There is only just so much we can do.

My favorite though is the "safe" working environment. My last job was in a factory. We had two lifts, a cherry picker and a scissors lift. Both and cages around them making you a virtual prisoner. Anytime you went up in these lifts you had to put on a harness and strap it to the rails. An absolute waste, there was no where to go.

See the problem the idealist have is that they seem to forget this is a world economy. If we continue to chase all of our manufacturing jobs off shore the only jobs left will be with the government, both as workers and recipients of welfare. Of course this also damages the GNP which according to somone here is the measure of how well the economy is doing. Given our current direction it won't be long before China will be the worl leader and we will be in second place or worse.

[scfire86]

Yup, but there is something known as too much of a good thing. For sure we shouldn't be dumping stuff into our rivers and streams. But in some cases the water going back is cleaner than the water that comes out. As for Clean air, well it cleans itself. There is only just so much we can do.
And the problem with cleaner air is?

My favorite though is the "safe" working environment. My last job was in a factory. We had two lifts, a cherry picker and a scissors lift. Both and cages around them making you a virtual prisoner. Anytime you went up in these lifts you had to put on a harness and strap it to the rails. An absolute waste, there was no where to go.
Again what's your point? Being safe is bad, because why?

See the problem the idealist have is that they seem to forget this is a world economy. If we continue to chase all of our manufacturing jobs off shore the only jobs left will be with the government, both as workers and recipients of welfare. Of course this also damages the GNP which according to somone here is the measure of how well the economy is doing. Given our current direction it won't be long before China will be the worl leader and we will be in second place or worse.
More doom and gloom crystal ball fantasies.

[GodSendRain]

Yup, but there is something known as too much of a good thing. For sure we shouldn't be dumping stuff into our rivers and streams. But in some cases the water going back is cleaner than the water that comes out. As for Clean air, well it cleans itself. There is only just so much we can do.

My favorite though is the "safe" working environment. My last job was in a factory. We had two lifts, a cherry picker and a scissors lift. Both and cages around them making you a virtual prisoner. Anytime you went up in these lifts you had to put on a harness and strap it to the rails. An absolute waste, there was no where to go.

See the problem the idealist have is that they seem to forget this is a world economy. If we continue to chase all of our manufacturing jobs off shore the only jobs left will be with the government, both as workers and recipients of welfare. Of course this also damages the GNP which according to somone here is the measure of how well the economy is doing. Given our current direction it won't be long before China will be the worl leader and we will be in second place or worse.

I don't think the problem was that the leaving companies couldn't afford safer workplaces. I feel that the problem is with the consumer. Companies don't mind advertising how safe their workplaces are, some even go above and beyond regulations to ensure the safety of their employees. It gives them something to be proud of and boast of. But does the consumer care? Ideally, the company wants the shopper to say to himself, "Well, I know this is a company that really cares about its employees and patrons. I would like to do business with this company despite the fact that the prices here are a bit higher than El Cheapo Mart down the street." Does it work that way in reality? Hardly. We can buy all of our goods from some Indonesian sweat shop where they still work 17 hour days for $0.23 a week, just so long as it means the cheapest product at a somewhat decent quality.

China may become the world leader, but the only countries that will follow it will be the ones which don't have regulations for health and safety. Like you said, it is a world economy, but we can still have standards for the goods we import, and a right to reject anything that isn't up to par (Like tainted dog food :mad: ).

[HotTrotter]

I don't think the problem was that the leaving companies couldn't afford safer workplaces. I feel that the problem is with the consumer. Companies don't mind advertising how safe their workplaces are, some even go above and beyond regulations to ensure the safety of their employees. It gives them something to be proud of and boast of. But does the consumer care? Ideally, the company wants the shopper to say to himself, "Well, I know this is a company that really cares about its employees and patrons. I would like to do business with this company despite the fact that the prices here are a bit higher than El Cheapo Mart down the street." Does it work that way in reality? Hardly. We can buy all of our goods from some Indonesian sweat shop where they still work 17 hour days for $0.23 a week, just so long as it means the cheapest product at a somewhat decent quality.

China may become the world leader, but the only countries that will follow it will be the ones which don't have regulations for health and safety. Like you said, it is a world economy, but we can still have standards for the goods we import, and a right to reject anything that isn't up to par (Like tainted dog food :mad: ).

Well sir, you have hit the nail on the head. The consumer (who in many cases is the same person who wants the higher wages, better benefits, and safer workplace) won't pay for those things. I've never once heard someone say they will buy a product because the company provides a good workplace and pays it's employees well. Nope people buy based on the products reputation and cost. And usually, cost outweighs everything else. So in reality, the American consumer is no better than the American businesses. Rather ironic isn't it. How some people can criticize American Businesses for moving to places where it cost less to build their products, but at the same time, they themselves shop for the cheapest product. :eek: :rolleyes:

[HotTrotter]

And the problem with cleaner air is?

There is a point of diminishing return. In others words, you can start putting too much money into it and getting little in return. And air polllution is really an urban problem. Air quality has to do with the Parts per million (PPM) of the bad stuff in with the good stuff. So when you take these big cities and you start putting too many people in one place you create all kinds of problems.

Again what's your point? Being safe is bad, because why?

Again, there is such a thing as being too safe. I fond that in many instances the safety protection devices were more of a hindrance than a prevention. Matter of fact, the stupid harnesses would get in the way and I nearly fell or tripped on several occasions. And get this, while working on the line I asked for a pair of gloves so I wouldn't cut my hands on the paper all the time. Couldn't have gloves because they might get caught in something.

More doom and gloom crystal ball fantasies.

That is not gloom and doom, that is what really happens my friend. Our town of 6000 people has about 300 jobs. That is because all of the industry has left. And no one is in a big hurry to move into the area. Sad because there is a lot of cheap labor here. People willing to work for $20k a year all over the place.

What you have to remember is that nothing in life is free. There are always cost and trade-offs in everything you do. Once you understand that you no longer believe in perfection but accept that nothing in life is perfect. As an example. One could build the perfect car that would never break. Problem is that no one would be able to afford it.

[scfire86]

There is a point of diminishing return. In others words, you can start putting too much money into it and getting little in return. And air polllution is really an urban problem. Air quality has to do with the Parts per million (PPM) of the bad stuff in with the good stuff. So when you take these big cities and you start putting too many people in one place you create all kinds of problems.
I guess we're to now assume that pollutants have the good sense to not cross the city boundaries. This is good stuff.

Again, there is such a thing as being too safe. I fond that in many instances the safety protection devices were more of a hindrance than a prevention. Matter of fact, the stupid harnesses would get in the way and I nearly fell or tripped on several occasions. And get this, while working on the line I asked for a pair of gloves so I wouldn't cut my hands on the paper all the time. Couldn't have gloves because they might get caught in something.
People say that until they're injured and are subjected to the worker's comp system. The first they usually do is hire an attorney.

That is not gloom and doom, that is what really happens my friend. Our town of 6000 people has about 300 jobs. That is because all of the industry has left. And no one is in a big hurry to move into the area. Sad because there is a lot of cheap labor here. People willing to work for $20k a year all over the place.
Sounds to me like they might have priced themselves out of a market. Being a pro-business, quasi "free market" person I thought you would appreciate the committment to finding the lowest price of labor possible.

What you have to remember is that nothing in life is free. There are always cost and trade-offs in everything you do. Once you understand that you no longer believe in perfection but accept that nothing in life is perfect. As an example. One could build the perfect car that would never break. Problem is that no one would be able to afford it.
Thank you for that life's lesson. I never realized it until now.

[HotTrotter]

I guess we're to now assume that pollutants have the good sense to not cross the city boundaries. This is good stuff.

Actually, yes. These are the same pollutants that know enough to let the heat in but not let the heat out. ;) In reality, as you get further from the source the level of pollution decreases to acceptable levels. And think about this, the earth and all of the species (excluding man) create pollution naturally. What do we do about that?

People say that until they're injured and are subjected to the worker's comp system. The first they usually do is hire an attorney.

They are going to do that regardless of the safety measures in place. And if the safety measure becomes a hazard they will win as well. Then again, spill hot coffee in your lap and see what happens.

Sounds to me like they might have priced themselves out of a market. Being a pro-business, quasi "free market" person I thought you would appreciate the committment to finding the lowest price of labor possible.


Thank you for that life's lesson. I never realized it until now.

Nope, this particular toy company left NY to go to SC. It was cheaper to do business there. Of course they need to still compete with the overseas companies. Here is one for you. GE in Schenectady manufacturers electric generators and turbines. The Gilboa damn (which supplies electricity to NYC) is about 20 miles away. This facility has Hitachi Generators in it. What does that tell you about the cost of American manufacturing?

[scfire86]

Actually, yes. These are the same pollutants that know enough to let the heat in but not let the heat out. ;) In reality, as you get further from the source the level of pollution decreases to acceptable levels. And think about this, the earth and all of the species (excluding man) create pollution naturally. What do we do about that?
I'm no expert. But I would bet that pollutants produced organically within the ecosystem assimilate better than those produced artificially. Just a guess of course.


They are going to do that regardless of the safety measures in place. And if the safety measure becomes a hazard they will win as well. Then again, spill hot coffee in your lap and see what happens.
More nonsensical soundbites.


Nope, this particular toy company left NY to go to SC. It was cheaper to do business there. Of course they need to still compete with the overseas companies. Here is one for you. GE in Schenectady manufacturers electric generators and turbines. The Gilboa damn (which supplies electricity to NYC) is about 20 miles away. This facility has Hitachi Generators in it. What does that tell you about the cost of American manufacturing?
And you know the reason behind this decision was strictly the cost of manufacturing? You can't be that dense to believe cost is the only factor in a capital purchase.

[HotTrotter]

I'm no expert. But I would bet that pollutants produced organically within the ecosystem assimilate better than those produced artificially. Just a guess of course.

I'm not a total expert, however I have built and maintained my own little ecosystem in my house. It's a 75 gallon aquarium. When I first started this little side hobby I got a huge education (after killing many fish). I had the water checked and found out the acid content was off the scale. :eek: My first thought was that damn acid rain. Well as it turns out, the fish produce ammonia as part of their biological process (much like man). This ammonia is processed by bacteria in the water to produce nitrates. The nitrates are processed by different bacteria to produce nitrates. So this naturally occurring process of breaking down and decaying stuff in the tank was creating the acid problem. That was the day I started questioning this acid rain theory. If it happens in my closed system then it mus happen out in the world as well. The rising acid levels in some of the lakes is more likely the result of the maturing forests and the natural process of dumping more of that naturally occurring acid into the lake. At any rate, the naturally occurring pollutants are the same as the made man ones. After all CO2 is CO2, doesn't matter what or who produced it.

Originally Posted by HotTrotter
Nope, this particular toy company left NY to go to SC. It was cheaper to do business there. Of course they need to still compete with the overseas companies. Here is one for you. GE in Schenectady manufacturers electric generators and turbines. The Gilboa damn (which supplies electricity to NYC) is about 20 miles away. This facility has Hitachi Generators in it. What does that tell you about the cost of American manufacturing?

Originally Posted by SCfire
And you know the reason behind this decision was strictly the cost of manufacturing? You can't be that dense to believe cost is the only factor in a capital purchase.

Being a government purchase by our friends in NYC I would have to say yes. And you would think our fellow NYer's would try to help us out once in a while.

[scfire86]

Being a government purchase by our friends in NYC I would have to say yes. And you would think our fellow NYer's would try to help us out once in a while.
Yet again you prove you know little if nothing about how procurement works for capital projects.

Carry on. I and others enjoy watching you.

[MarcusKspn]

Scfire86,

after all this time I am still waiting for you to answer the original question:

How do YOU feel about YOUR party. You are quick to bitch about everybody else, and the neocons, yet you never answerd the first question.

Do you think your party has EVERYTHING right? If not where can they improve? Does the right have ANYTHING right? If yes, where can both parties meet in the middle?

I really don't expect you to answer.....

[scfire86]

I really don't expect you to answer.....
Good. I really have no intention of putting any effort into this question.

[MarcusKspn]

Good. I really have no intention of putting any effort into this question.

Then there is really no reason to listen to anything you say. Discussions are an exchange of ideas between two parties. You are the perfect example of everything that is wrong with the two party system. You will always lynch everybody that has anything to do with the Republican Party because they are Republicans.

You are the perfect example of a Yellow Dog Democrat. Can you honestly tell me that the Democratic Party never disapointed you? They are always 100% right? People with a mindset like this in BOTH parties are what is screwing over the USA.

[HotTrotter]

Yet again you prove you know little if nothing about how procurement works for capital projects.

Carry on. I and others enjoy watching you.

In a previous position with the Federal Government I was intimately involved in the procurements for capital projects. That is what a project manager does. The government is supposed to get the best value, which often equates to cheapest price. If all specs are equal, they have no choice but to go that route. Although, if it can be justified one can sole source a procurement, but there needs to be a good and valid reason for doing so. And even then, competitors can challenge that justification.

Perhaps it is you who is clueless about how to manage a large project. FYI some of my projects were multi-million dollar projects spanning multiple years.

[scfire86]

In a previous position with the Federal Government I was intimately involved in the procurements for capital projects. That is what a project manager does. The government is supposed to get the best value, which often equates to cheapest price. If all specs are equal, they have no choice but to go that route. Although, if it can be justified one can sole source a procurement, but there needs to be a good and valid reason for doing so. And even then, competitors can challenge that justification.

Perhaps it is you who is clueless about how to manage a large project. FYI some of my projects were multi-million dollar projects spanning multiple years.
Are you intimately familiar with the purchase of the generators you mention? Perhaps there was a good a valid reason for going with the non-GE unit.

And you assume the cost of labor is the reason for the disparity in price. Do you know all you claim to be true? I doubt it.