rescue tech.

[nozzlenut264]

anyone know of how a firefighter in new jersey would become a rope rescue tech? looking for some guidence for our guys and gals.


thanks!

[mcl312]

NFPA 1670 lays out the required training. We have used ROCO Rescue to do our training. Just google them, I'm sure they have web site, we have had them come and do training 2 or 3 times, not cheap but you get what you pay for.

[kferrara2002]

Give NFPA 1006 a look as well. You may want to check ot Bucks County Public Safety Training - www.bucks.edu/publicsafety

There are several agencies out there providing training. It just depends on what you want. Also, are you looking at being Pro Board or IFSAC certified?

[Techresq]

Nozzlenut,

First, let's clear up the confusion on the NFPA standards. NFPA 1670 addresses the training requirement for a department or organization to become certified in the technical rescue field. NFPA 1006 addresses the training requirements for an individual to become certified as a technical rescue technician. Currently, there is no other NFPA standards in the technical rescue field for certification other than technician level.

Now for training, there are a lot of great organizations and companies that provide training. Most of them out there today state that their training meets the NFPA 1006 standard. Without knowing who evaluated their courses to see if they meet the standard or their ability to give a Pro-Board for IFSAC certification you really cannot be sure if the training does meet the standards.

I can only speak for my company but I tried for two years to have someone evaluate my courses to the NFPA standard. Neither Pro Board or IFSAC would credit a private company. In order to be able to offer Pro Board certification I had to align my company with a third-party accrediting agency. I had to submit the training outline for the different topics and have the accrediting agency and a Pro Board representative review and credit the program. It is a long process and even with a third-party agency it took another year before the programs received accreditation. This is a dynamic and ever-changing process. New performance requirements are continuously changing. In order for the training to meet this standard the training provided must continuously being reevaluated to stay up to date.

Today, my company offers Pro Board certification training in all the technical rescue disciplines except for water. My main clients are Federal Fire Departments on military installations due to the need they have for certification in disciplines performed. I checked the best I could and could not find where New Jersey required NFPA certification for technical rescue.

If you have any more questions or I can help you in any other way please feel free to contact me at: Dave@techtrngsols.com

David Gerrer
Technical Training Solutions,LLC
www.techtrngsols.com

[kferrara2002]

Techresq...

I'm just curious about your military clients. Who do you teach to? The reason I ask is that I am a Technical Rescue Instructor for the United States Air Force and we quite honestly have not heard of you teaching to any Air Force installations. I did check out your client list and didn't see any Air Force bases listed, however I did see a few Army or Reserve associated clients.

DoD or shall I say more specifically the Air Force is very specific as to where the Technical Rescue certifications come from and there are only two agencies right now they will accept the cert from (Goodfellow academy and the USAFE fire academy) which are both IFSAC accredited.

Kevin

[Techresq]

To date I have instructed at Air Force Plant 42, Ellsworth Air Force Base and numerous classes at Edwards Air Force Base. Along with teaching for the different Air Force bases I also have done training for the Army, Navy and Marine Corps. My company offers all the courses that DOD requires for the Rescue Technician One and Rescue Technician Two certification. Other Federal Agencies like the Army Corps of Engineers and the Department of Interior. None of my clients have had trouble with reciprocity over to DOD certifications as the certifications are Pro Board. My company is aligned with Great Oaks Technical Institute at a Cincinnati, Ohio. So basically the way it works is my company does the training I contract with Great Oaks for evaluators and they give the certifications. Agreement that we have is very well known by Pro-Board and is above board and accepted by them. From what I understand there are a couple other companies that have aligned themselves with an accredited agency to give certifications. I'm sure that the Air Force can not stay up to date with every agency or company that is coming online and offering NFPA accredited courses. It is a long hard process but is gaining momentum as more and more companies come online.

[Techresq]

And with all due respect all DOD entities to include the Air Force grants reciprocity over to any IFSAC or Pro Board certification. This is how educational institutes such as MFRI, Bucks county, Teex and other educational institutes provide training for DOD entities. I'm very aware of the DOD (and Air Force) accreditation process as I just retired at the beginning of the year after 24 years as a civilian in the Federal Fire Service.

If you did go to my website and look at the Pro Board listed clients you would see that most of them there are not a Reserve or National Guard components. And again, if you did look at my website the information that I have stated in my last two postings should have been very clear and without question.

[kferrara2002]

Techresq...

First let me say that I was not calling you out on your teaching methods or tactics or your company; I was simply asking a few simple questions. But now that you feel that I have somehow questioned you and your company, it should be known that I DID in fact go to your web site. As a matter of fact, I'm on it right now. If you read my post correctly, you would have seen that I did not state your clients were strictly Army or Reserve but associated clients (that means agencies associated with them; to include the ones you mentioned). I didn't feel the need to submit each one.

I am VERY well aware of how the DoD grants reciprocity for certifications issued through ProBoard and IFSAC by allowing personnel to train with certain agencies (Bucks, Texas AM, MFRI, etc). If you know the process so well, you know that each base has to basically get permission first from DoD to either send personnel to or host the course. It's not like in the civilian sectors where the departments can simply call a training agency and have them come teach. There are contract negations to be worked out first and funds need to be allocated accordingly. If there are student slots available at either Goodfellow or USAFE, then the military will most likely send the students there or they will come to the base to teach. With money being tight in the military these days, outside training is beginning to slow down.

Most Air Force firefighters know quite well that the only two currently approved schools to teach Tech Rescue are Goodfellow and USAFE academies because of the curriculum change. To my knowledge, no other outside agency has submitted updates to their training packages to meet the same certification standards as the DoD.

This brings up my final question to you. You stated in your post and your web site does not indicate that you are approved to teach Swift Water. This requirement is now part of the Technical Rescue I course. How do you certify the DoD personnel as Rescue Technicians if you do not provide Swift Water Awareness? If you are not teaching Swift Water Awareness, then you are not providing the same level of training that the Goodfellow and USAFE academies are, which means your course should not be accredited according to some. Granted you can provide portions to each base, but the current curriculum in the DoD is: NIMS (No longer IMS), Swift Water, Vehicle & Machinery, Rope, Confined Space. The course is 3 weeks long and upon graduation students receive one cert for everything.

You are correct in saying that the DoD cannot and will never be able to keep up with outside agencies who are providing certain training. There are in fact more advanced courses in this type of training as well as others. I myself have taken advantage of those courses. However, we are by far the one of the best providers of fire service training out there! Just look at the posts in the forums. :)

Finally, congratulations on retiring from the Federal Fire Service after 24 years of dedicated service. If you do not mind me asking, under what branch of service did you work for (Army or Air Force)?

Please, by all means, I mean no disrespect...I'm simply trying to get some additional information so that when bases call me up asking about outside training, I have good information to provide them.

[jmatthe2]

It is a sad day when a certification is only as good as the piece of paper it is on. I am not trying to make a personal attack, and I don't have my own company (although I am "contract trainer" for a national training company). Just because you have a certificate that says IFSAC, or Pro-Board does not make one program better than another. It really is all irrelevant. It comes down to the quality of the program.

Companies are holding Structural CollapseTechnician, Rope Technician courses that are 5 days. The problem with being accredited is that there are no hourse tied to these programs. I would NEVER hang my resume on a Structural Collapse Tech. course that is completed in 5 days...But hey they issue an IFSAC or Pro-Board cert so they must be the best!:eek:

kferrara2002 has already hit on another point. There are agency's out there who provide a cert that really are not meeting the standard. How they get accredited I have no idea.

I really think accreditation is a good thing. But everyone is not playing on the same field and by the same rules. When I moved state B was an IFSAC state. Firefighter II training was a whopping 80 hours! (I am being sarcastic by the way!) My home state, State A, was not an IFSAC state and the training was true FFII training at over 200 hrs. Why was State A not an IFSAC state? Because they would have to offer reciprocity for state's such as State B!

[Techresq]

First let me say that this is a perfect reason why usually do not respond or post anything in forms. Everything that is posted usually is taken at face value as I did with these postings.

Jmatthe2:
I do agree with you 100% about the quality of the course is more important than whether it meets a standard or not. The standard is there for the development of these courses and a requirement for what the student should know when completing the course. Again, if the course gives the students the knowledge skill and ability to perform this task should be the main focus of the instructor(s) and course outlines. If you were a student in one of my classes you would have heard me say the exact words that you put in your posting. I feel 100% that at the end of the course if the student does not have the knowledge, skill and ability to perform the task I have failed that students and the certification is nothing more than a piece of paper that you can hang on the wall. I have spent a lot of time, money and continually updating my courses to give the absolute best quality training I can.

Do most instructors that I know wish their courses could be longer-YES! But there is an industry-standard for the length of time to instruct each one of these topics. If you're course is longer than most other ones being offered you will have an extremely hard time finding clients (I know I have tried). Most companies tried to do what I try to do and that is give the absolute best training in the time frame that the industry will allow.

Like you, I feel that accreditation is a good thing and tries to insurers everyone is trained to the same knowledge, skill and ability level. But like it is stated throughout almost every NFPA standard that I know the AHJ can set it additional requirements over and above the NFPA a standard. This will come to light in my reply to kferrara2002. But again, there are a lot of great organizations and training institutions that give outstanding classes. I am not trying to take anything away from their courses. The main point that I was originally trying to make is that if you want a technician level course and their courses have not been evaluated to ensure they meet the standards then how can you ensure that they do? Example - I know a company that advertises that their rope rescue class meets the NFPA 1006 standards. But in his course he has removed the high angle vertical pick-off (with stretcher) the rope ascending portion. The course clearly does not meet the NFPA 1006 standards but he continually advertises that he does.

Kferrara2002:

First, let me say I am sorry and apologize to you for jumping back as I did. Over the years that I have been doing training and giving the NFPA certification I've been called on the carpet many times. I have been question to my face about my honesty and integrity when I state that I can give Pro Board Certification for the training that I do. As I stated above giving the absolute best training that I can give you and my honesty and integrity is very important to me. I'm not saying that you called me out on this but after years of having to defend myself I tend to be a little thin-skinned and jump back hard.

Your reply to me that stated that NIMS and Swift Water Rescue Awareness is a requirement for the Rescue Technician One Certification was news to me and cause great concern that I was not meeting the DOD standard for the Rescue Technician One. So I called AFCESA and talked to a Master Sergeant Clifford about the requirements for the DOD Rescue Technician One. This is his reply to me – (I will not quote him as I can not remember his exact words but his answer went something like this)
The DOD Rescue Technician One Certification is based on the NFPA 1006 - 2003 standard. The chapters that a person needs to have either IFSAC, Pro Board or DOT certification in are- Chapter 5 Job Performance, Chapter 6 Rope Rescue, Chapter 8 Vehicle and Machinery and Chapter 9 Confined Space Rescue. As long as the training meets these chapters and a NFPA certification is received they can be submitted for reciprocity to the DOD Rescue Technician One. He stated that at Goodfellow they have added the NIMS and Swift Water Rescue Awareness to the class being offered there. Again, the AHJ being Goodfellow has opted to put this additional training into their program. But that it is not a requirement to receive the DOD Rescue Technician One Certification only the chapters specified above are required and that by no means any other organization supplying this training needs to meet the standards that Goodfellow has adopted. So if you look at the course you offer to include the optional training that has been put into your program yes my programs are not at the same level. But if you look at the requirements for receiving the certification then my courses do meet and have received DOD certification. Again, would I like to have more than 14 days to complete the Rescue Technician One course? YES! But again how do I justify additional time when other training institutions and companies are completing the training in two weeks or less.

If you would like to talk more about this feel free to contact me but I believe it should be out of this form and in person. This is not the proper place to work out these differences of opinions and understandings about each other's programs. My e-mail address is in the above posting or you can get my toll-free number off my website or send me an e-mail with your contact information and I would be more than happy to talk to you. Again, please accept my apology for misconstruing the intent of your posting. I believe that we both feel very strongly in the quality of training that is being supplied by our organizations.