I need advice

[volfireman034]

OK fellow firefighters need some honest advice. Ok here the problem.... We are a small rural fire dept with only a annual budget of $4,800 or so. We have applied for a AFG grant for 4 new CBRN SCBA's. Of course we got the email about AFG only spending $5,000 on each SCBA plus bottles unless you try to appeal for more money. We asked for $27,000 so our 5% of that would be $1,350. IF they only give us $20,000 ( 4 X $5,000) then we have to come up with the differance. Even if the SCBA distrubitors give us a prive break we still could be looking at $3,000 to $4,000 extra. WE don;t have that kinda money. OK now the wringkle in the deal lol Last week a near by fire dept offered us used Scott 2.2 fifty's that need the NFPA standards as of Feb 2007 and have the intergrated pass, buddy breather, heads up displayand quick fills. They were also professionaly tested this past Jan 2007 and of course all passed. They are only asking $400.00 per SCBA, but we have to decide soon or there will sale them to another dept. (soon meaning 30 days or so) So what should we do???? Should we wait and hope and pray we get the AFG grant and hope and pray they approve a price appeal or do we just get the Scott's from the other fire depts for the lower cost but are in great shape and met all NFPA requirements up till DHS got involved and required the CBRN. Please help and advise!!!!

[law189]

if the used ones are in good condition and meet all standards get them, thats a cheap enough price you should just get both, fund raise or something

[djgilbert32]

Something you may want to keep in mind, even though they were professionally tested and passed in Jan. 2007, alot can happen in 8 months, so you would probably want to have then all checked again if you purchase them or even before if possible, same with the air bottles,see when they will need hydro tested, you could be out some money there also, as for the grant, I don't have much experience with the grants, I know some of them if you do not not use the grant and return it, it hurts your chances for future grants. Just something to think about.

[steverfd]

Not trying to start a war here, but I was speaking to our salesman and was told that the survivair (sp?) warrior has passed all the tests and will be avaliable around December. The cost for these 2007 ed high pressure packs are sub 5 K each with a spare bottle.

This is what I was told, have not seen it in stone yet.


Steve

[BC79er_OLDDELETE]

You can't buy any used equipment with AFG funds unless you applied and specifically stated used equipment. Otherwise all equipment purchased must be new or demo. The latter meaning that no other fire department owned the equipment, vendor just used them for presentations and testing by departments.

[SLY4420]

You can't buy any used equipment with AFG funds unless you applied and specifically stated used equipment. Otherwise all equipment purchased must be new or demo. The latter meaning that no other fire department owned the equipment, vendor just used them for presentations and testing by departments.

The only exception is that used apparatus purchases may be made assuming they meet NFPA guidelines.

[canton120]

I talked with one of the grant specialists via the Help Desk yesterday. He stressed that departments that are in this situation should forward at least 3 quotes to DHS and their is a good chance that your request may be bumped to the lowest of the 3 quotes.

[BC79er_OLDDELETE]

Only demo apparatus can be purchased without an amendment and without stating the applicant wants to buy used apparatus. If nothing is mentioned, new or demo is only what can be purchased. Amendments to buy used apparatus are rarely approved because there are so few 'good' used apparatus that will last as long as a new/demo.

[LVFD301]

If it was me, I would buy the used ones, and hold the
manufacturers feet to the fire for a trade in if you get the grant.

I suspect that you will find the prices to be inching below 5 fairly quickly.

[LVFD301]

requirements up till DHS got involved and required the CBRN. Please help and advise!!!!

It is my understanding that NFPA - NOT DHS - requires the CBRN. DHS
simply requires ALL new purchases to meet NFPA standards at the time.

No offense, but you seem awful down on DHS - on areas that simply don't have basis in fact. You claim Arkansas has been "shafted" by DHS, you claim DHS has been stealng all the AFG monies, now you claim the above.

DHS has its problems, but not ones you are claiming. I looked inward and figured out why I was not doing well getting grants....

[LVFD301]

OK fellow firefighters need some honest advice. Ok here the problem.... We are a small rural fire dept with only a annual budget of $4,800 or so. We have applied for a AFG grant for 4 new CBRN SCBA's. Of course we got the email about AFG only spending $5,000 on

I just noticed this... Are you saying that 4 airpacks was all you need to make your entire department 100% NFPA compliant?

How many riding positions do you have?

Did anyone else catch this?

[ktb9780]

I just noticed this... Are you saying that 4 airpacks was all you need to make your entire department 100% NFPA compliant?

How many riding positions do you have?

Did anyone else catch this?

Yea I saw that too and wondered if they set their request based upon what they could afford in their budget and not based upon the riding positions on apparatus. If they failed to equip at 100% compliance, based upon ridiing positions, they are going to get shot down but, since they obviously have passed competitive computer review they must be in limits here. Guys you have a 12 month period of performance in which to come up with your matching dollars. $4,000 is well within reach, especially if you approach the citizens and tell them you have to have it to get the grant. I mean what would the citizens rather do?Have you using unsafe used equipment and having to cover 100% of the costs or only 5% of the cost? That is a no brainer. Take the new, appeal for more money and accept what they offer. At worst case scenario you could go to a local bank and get an Essestial Community Services loan for a couple of years; I mean $4K should not be a stumbling block for brand new packs which should last you 10-15 years with no problems.I am curious to know why that other department is getting rid of 2007 compliant packs anyway?You should be too!:rolleyes:

[onebugle]

Yea I saw that too and wondered if they set their request based upon what they could afford in their budget and not based upon the riding positions on apparatus. If they failed to equip at 100% compliance, based upon ridiing positions, they are going to get shot down but, since they obviously have passed competitive computer review they must be in limits here.

I don't think they need to be 100% compliant to the number of riding positions. The only reference to riding positions in the PG is that the request will be limited to the number of riding positions. There are probably a number of departments out there that have more riding positions than personnel. The AFG is not going to grant more SCBA's than firefighters.

The issue will be is the department 100% compliant to the standard after the purchase with all of their SCBA.

I am curious to know why that other department is getting rid of 2007 compliant packs anyway?You should be too!

I'm not convinced that the SCBA are 2007 compliant. The SCBA were tested in January, but met the 2007 standard in February. How? If the SCBA were upgraded to meet the standard, they would have to be recertified. I believe the SCBA only have the components required for the 2007 standard (no mention of CBRNE) and that's it.

If the SCBA were upgraded the cost for the upgrade would have exceeded the cost they are selling them for. Definately need more info.

[ktb9780]

I don't think they need to be 100% compliant to the number of riding positions. The only reference to riding positions in the PG is that the request will be limited to the number of riding positions. There are probably a number of departments out there that have more riding positions than personnel. The AFG is not going to grant more SCBA's than firefighters.

The issue will be is the department 100% compliant to the standard after the purchase with all of their SCBA.



I'm not convinced that the SCBA are 2007 compliant. The SCBA were tested in January, but met the 2007 standard in February. How? If the SCBA were upgraded to meet the standard, they would have to be recertified. I believe the SCBA only have the components required for the 2007 standard (no mention of CBRNE) and that's it.

If the SCBA were upgraded the cost for the upgrade would have exceeded the cost they are selling them for. Definately need more info.

Good clarification on the complaince onebugle; I should have caught that myself.;)

[LVFD301]

In 2003, they got 7,799 federal share, and in 2002 they got "shafted" again
with $6,111.00 federal share. Not sure if these were turnouts or what however.

I have offered some free airpacks to him, but no reply. Even some free ones could be used as trade ins, lowering his overall cost.

[volfireman034]

Ok I guess i didn't leave a few things confusing. First when i said the SCBA's passed standards as of feb 2007. Meaning they ment the lateest standard before the CBRN. I ment the standards before the new NFPA CBRN 2007 came into effect which I thought was in Feb. If it was a later date sorry my mad i was going on memory.

2nd WE are NOT using AFG funds to buy the used SCBA's why would we do that? The it would be our own money.

3rd every one keep say go to the community to get money as they certainly would be all for helping get new SCBA. Well most don;t understand very rural vol fire depts. We only have 60 homes, they pay $35 yearly as "dues" to support the fire dept. A few years back we ask if everyone would pay a extra $10 to help us get our first hydrant. Only 20 homes helped out with the extra money. Most people in this area have the attitude of let it burn and put out the foundation that way there less to clean up after the fire. We have spent many years trying to change that idea and we are getting there slowly.

4th We asked only for 4 SCBA's becuase we only have 4 positions in our pumper and we only have 4 firefighters that are physically capable to interior fire fight. Heck is not uncommon around here to only have one or 2 people per dept responding to a fire during the day. lol I have gotten pretty good at putting out car fires alone for the first 15 mins.

5th MY apologies to LVFD301 if you did offer us free SCBA I either don;t remmeber. If I didn;t reply means somehow i didn;t get the message or realize it was you. Again my deepest apologies.

6th When I was refering to DHS shafting us I meant Arkansas as a state not my dept alone. The last couple years less money has come to Arkansas then previous years. Yes we have done very well with AFG But we had to ask for only a few things each year becuase of buget problems the one year all we asked for a got was a portable pump to fill our tanker with.

Sorry for some of the confusion.

[ktb9780]

Well that certainly cleared up a few things volfireman. I still say go with the AFG funds and get the new ones; if you are as poor as you say you need to get the longest mileage you can from whatever equipment you can get your hands on.Plead your case based upon what you have told us and the circumstances surronding your community in trying to get as much money for them as you can from DHS. In regards to Arkansas getting shafted as a state. I dare say it would be difficult for you to make that statement without knowing exactly how many departments in Arkansas actually applied. To be perfectly honest with you I believe, if memory serves me correct, that the last two years every department I worked with from Arkansas did get funded.The numbers seem disportionate because the actual number of departments that applied from Arkansas was probably very small. Oh and just to clarify things for you, out of the 400+ departments I worked with this past year; only about 30 were considered suburban or urban. They were all rural and most with budgets under $50K per year; if that. To say that bc79er or I don't understand the nature of rural communities or your department problems is just not true at all. We probabaly understand far better than you woudld ever realize. Now granted 60 homes is very, very small and you have some diffcult things to overcome but, you are not being penalized for it with DHS in most cases. If utilized properly it can actually be a big help to you. True you can't go for the really big stuff but, lets face it; With only 60 homes your runs per year are probably pretty small also, so the actual need is truly smaller for you in some areas but, when it comes to PPE,department or community size and run totals are not generally a big factor.;)

[neiowa]

3rd every one keep say go to the community to get money as they certainly would be all for helping get new SCBA. Well most don;t understand very rural vol fire depts. We only have 60 homes, they pay $35 yearly as "dues" to support the fire dept. A few years back we ask if everyone would pay a extra $10 to help us get our first hydrant. Only 20 homes helped out with the extra money. Most people in this area have the attitude of let it burn and put out the foundation that way there less to clean up after the fire. We have spent many years trying to change that idea and we are getting there slowly.


Sure about that? Have you done a personal fund raising letter? Have you contacted Walmart? Bet they would come up with at least $1-2000 for your portion if you explain the payback.

[SLY4420]

Only demo apparatus can be purchased without an amendment and without stating the applicant wants to buy used apparatus. If nothing is mentioned, new or demo is only what can be purchased. Amendments to buy used apparatus are rarely approved because there are so few 'good' used apparatus that will last as long as a new/demo.

I know of one company in 2003 who purchased a 1990! :confused: Pumper/Tanker and had to retro it to meet NFPA. There was nothing in the application about purchasing used and the only amendment to the application was done by DHS for a reduction.

[BC79er_OLDDELETE]

That was to avoid them paying the whole thing back since it used to be a gray area. Since then the rules have changed so that doesn't happen.