CS Rescue Teams are governed by?

[JimLinch]

I've just joined my plants (particle board) CSE team and it is severely lacking in training and equipment.

Basically its a "straw-man" team that somewhat meets the minimum 1910.146 requirements.

My question is... "Are there any other federal standards than CRS 1910.146 that regulate the training or preparedness of an employer entry team?"

Does NFPA 1670 go beyond 1910.146? From scanning it, it looks to be a copy of 1910.146 for the most part.

My major issue is while 1910.146 says that members will be trained and provided the proper gear to make a rescue, there is nothing to state what that is.

I was barely able to convince them that wee needed a back board and c-collar on site so far.

Any help would be appreciated.

-Jim

[jmatthe2]

I noticed that the term for the team is CSE. That is E for entry, and not CSR, R-for rescue. What is goal of that team? To enter and clean a space, or to extract someone who has become injured in the space. What type of spaces do you have? Permit required? Can they be reclassified?

Many plant "rescue" teams, are only trained to an Awareness level. That is you do some metering and can operate a non-entry rescue system whether rope or a cable winch.

From my understaning if your plant has an agreement with the local Fire Department, they have no requirement to have a fully functional rescue team. The caveat is that rescue efforts must begin in "a timely manner" what that is I have no idea!

If your facility is interested in training I am confident you could competitive pricing by posting on this forum. (If FireHouse allows it) Are you in the Carolinas? I know we have a couple facilities such as yours around the area.

[jbrescue]

Look at 1910.146 Appendix F. It talks about the evaluation of the rescue team. This is stated as a guideline, not mandatory. But, it has some good information. In order to know what equipment you need, you are going to have to get someone in there to teach a class. Then you will see what they are teaching and what you will need to perform.

[JimLinch]

Sorry, I meant "R" as in Rescue team.

Yes, the 1910.146 App. F gives the timely suggestions as does NFPA 1670.

We are still below "awareness level" as we have no rope skills as decribed in 6.2, but the company is now getting behind the effort to train us up.

I'm heading to a "train the trainer" by D2000 in Eugene, OR. next Feb. so my up hill battle is looking a lot better in a weeks time.

I think that the evaluations of the annual "rescue" we just had opened their eyes to our needs, and fortunately they are responding.

Thanks for the input guys!

[kferrara2002]

You have two basic types of rescue teams regarding Confined Space.

The first being a "Rescue Stand-by" team. This team which in your case would be a team from your employment that has everything supplied by the employer to perform a rescue operation should anything occur. Your employer is REQUIRD to supply everything to perform a rescue operation as long as they are supporting a rescue team on site. Obviously the team must consist of personnel properly trained to enter the confined space. OSHA established a goal of reaching the victim within 2 - 4 minutes when a "Rescue Stand-by" team is utilized.

If your employer chooses to have the fire department or even your company team respond after an incident occurs which is called "Rescue Available", OSHA established a goal of the emergency response agancy arriving on scene within 10 minutes and reaching the victim within 15 minutes afterward. This is so the responding agency can set up their equipment and make entry into the confined space.

Regarding equipment, again that varies on the type(s) of confined spaces you have in your response area. The BASIC equipment may consict of the following:


Tripod
4-1 Block and Tackle kit with built in safety
1/2" Life Safety Rope (MUST MEET NFPA 1983) (Have at least 6 bags-150' on hand)
Equipment bags (anchor plates,carabiners, pulleys, prusik cord, webbing, etc) (2 bags)
Back board, miller board, SKED, YATES Spec Pak, C-collars, etc
SAR (Supplied Air respirator) (minimum of 4)
SCBA (minumum 4)
Communication kit (Expensive but useful) (Can use portable radios, but must be intrinsically safe (explosion proof))


This is just a basic kit, again depending on what you have on site, the list can be increased. Let me know wht you have on site and I can compile a list of what you should suggest to have on handor need to purchase.

[gdsqdcr]

K2002

Where did you get the time limits for how quickly rescue and fire should be on scene? It has been a while since I read the regs, but I do not remember a time limit being established there.

Thanks!
Anthony

[Flochief]

Yes K20002,
Where did you get the times, I too do not remember seeing these in regs. It has been a while since I last read them.
Thanks, Glenn

[JimLinch]

4-6minutes is given in 1910.146 app. K and in 1670 app A I believe

[ADSNWFLD]

I believe the time is 6 minutes and it is somewhere in the OSHA document or supporting paperwork.
Basically you need a rescue team on scene standing by. Now, depending on the space, a non entry rescue is a rescue. Make sure that all of the entrants fully uinderstand how important the basic safety stuff is. Air monitoring, ventilation, LOTO, Having a tag line and retrieval system. We protect the 4th largest industrial park in Illinois and we know there are several CS entrys every single day, somewhere in the district. Even with that frequency we havent had an intown rescue in many years. (Several in neighboring jurisdictions)

So be dilligent with safety and you are more then 1/2 way there.
As for the equipment issue, I don't want to sound like a minimalist but you don't need 1/2 of that list kferrara2002 made. One of your most valuble tools will be your 4 gas monitor. Have a pair separate from the ones used every day on entrys. make sure you have a stand alone fan (80% of problems are from bad air). Rope and rope gear should be NFPA approved rescue gear but being in industry nothing is holding you to it. (in reality nothing holds us to having NFPA gear)
If you are just starting out begin with non entry rescue scenarios and practice with the retrival system. It is pretty straight forward. Once you come up with a course of action create some standard guidelines and invite OSHA to come by to see them. They will tell you if you are on the money or off base. Our regional team voluntarilly whent to the Illinois Department of Labor (we are not an OSHA state) and had them look over everything. On incidents the inspectors were very happy with us, they knew what we were doing and we knew what they wanted to see.
Any other questions please ask.

[kferrara2002]

If you look at 29CFR 1910.146 Appendix F, Section A Initial Evaluation, paragraph 1, you will see that towards the end, it states the rescue team should have a response time of 10 to 15 minutes. NFPA 1670 Annex A (A.7.1.3.8) also recommends having a response time of 15 minutes or less. This would be considered "Rescue Available" meaning the responding agency would have to respond & arrive on scene (within 15 minutes), set-up their equipment, make entry, and finally reach the patient.

Regarding the "Rescue Stand-by" teams, the 2-4 minute response time is for any confined space that has the potential of becoming an IDLH site. The stand-by rescue team already has their equipment in place and can quickly enter the confined space and reach the victim(s) within the recommended time. That time is not etched in stone, but based on the circumstances, it is an acceptable (GOAL) set-forth. Some other resources are 29 CFR 1920.120 and 1910.134.

I'm attaching a link to a Power Point file from Ohio University that gives some information on the "Rescue Stand-by / Available". www.chillicothe.ohiou.edu/.../training/presentations/Confined%20Space%20-%20A%20Timeline%20to%20Rescue. ppt

ADSNWFLD... I'm not certain as to if you are a certified Confined Space Technician, but you may want to check your resources regarding equipment. What exactly do you not need on the list I provided? The list that I provided is a basic list for both horizontal and vertical confined space entries.

With regards to an industry confined space rescue team, if you are an established confined space "Rescue Team" and your organization has adopted the NFPA codes, you better be following the applicable codes to the letter especially if you are investigated due to an injury or fatality. If you are using hardware in a rescue scenario, it MUST meet NFPA 1983 standards; it will be either stenciled, labeled, or etched on the piece of equipment. Any rescue organization whether it be an industry, volunteer, or career department; if you adopted NFPA codes, you are required to abide to those codes and all equipment WILL be used in accordance with NFPA 1983 and all personnel will be trained in accordance with NFPA 1006 and 1670.

[jbrescue]

[QUOTE=kferrara2002;870094]the confined space.




Tripod
4-1 Block and Tackle kit with built in safety
1/2" Life Safety Rope (MUST MEET NFPA 1983) (Have at least 6 bags-150' on hand)
Equipment bags (anchor plates,carabiners, pulleys, prusik cord, webbing, etc) (2 bags)
Back board, miller board, SKED, YATES Spec Pak, C-collars, etc
SAR (Supplied Air respirator) (minimum of 4)
SCBA (minumum 4)
Communication kit (Expensive but useful) (Can use portable radios, but must be intrinsically safe (explosion proof))


QUOTE]


I think you may have forgotten or assumed the basics here. Harnesses, helmets and intrinsically safe helmet lights. Multiple lights should be taken by each person also. As for communication, check out the ResCom system that combines rope and coms together. One less line to get tangled up.

[kferrara2002]

jbrescue...

Great catch! I did assume that each member or team would have PPE (gloves, boots, harness, helmet, lights, etc.) provided. I appreciate you identifying that any light used in Confined Space Operations must be intrinsically safe as well.

I've seen the combo rope, comm, and air line kits, however I personally thought they seemed a bit bulky when you start adding all three together. I will definately check out the ResCom equipment.

Kevin

[ADSNWFLD]

Regarding equipment, again that varies on the type(s) of confined spaces you have in your response area. The BASIC equipment may consict of the following:

Tripod
4-1 Block and Tackle kit with built in safety
1/2" Life Safety Rope (MUST MEET NFPA 1983) (Have at least 6 bags-150' on hand)
Equipment bags (anchor plates,carabiners, pulleys, prusik cord, webbing, etc) (2 bags)
Back board, miller board, SKED, YATES Spec Pak, C-collars, etc
SAR (Supplied Air respirator) (minimum of 4)
SCBA (minumum 4)
Communication kit (Expensive but useful) (Can use portable radios, but must be intrinsically safe (explosion proof))

This is just a basic kit, again depending on what you have on site, the list can be increased. Let me know wht you have on site and I can compile a list of what you should suggest to have on handor need to purchase.

kferrara2002, do you work for an equipment supplier?

Jim, please share with us the kinds of spaces your team intends to enter. For example, if you have stationary mixing tanks, I would have an anchor point built in over the entry point. You MAY need a tripod or another device may be more appropriate. Again depending on the space a high anchor point may not be the best option. 6 bags of life safety rope depending on your facility could be as much as 3 or 4 bags overkill. You do need some misc. hardware and carabiners, but it may be no where near two full bags full. SAR/SCBA, what you use depends on the types of spaces you will enter. Com system again depends on the space. Oh, yes the haulsafe, 4:1, a nice tool but can also be made with other hardware. If your an industrial team the manufactured retrieval / fall protection is very nice also.
And yes I am a confined space tech, and have been for many years and many rescues.
kferrara, just because he is on firehouse.com doesn't automatically require him to comply with NFPA. As a matter of fact NFPA is just a consensus standard and in our area several municipalities have been hit by OSHA/IDOL for CS rescues and NFPA was never in the conversation.
Not to say that NFPA standards are completly bad but in the rescue community as a whole it is overkill and can hamper some operations. Do what is appropriate not just because NFPA said so.
Jim again your first call sould be to your DOL or OSHA to find out what they are looking for.
Good luck and be safe.

[kferrara2002]

ADSNWFLD...

To answer you question "Am I an equipment supplier", the answer is no. I am however a Technical Rescue Instructor (Confined Space, NIMS, Auto & Machinery Extrication, Rope Rescue, Swift Water) for the Department of Defense and US Military.

NFPA will not come into play unless the emergency services organization has "officially" adopted their standards. I've even seen organizations and local jurisdictions not adopt NFPA and perform confined space rescue operations. You are correct in stating that NFPA is a consensus standard compromised of the leading "experts" in that particular standards field. However, when an organization or jurisdiction decides to "officially" adopt NFPA for whatever reason, they besome somewhat obligated to follow the guidelines of those standards. They cannot pick and choose at their whim.

I've seen fire chiefs and personnel get ripped up on the stand in court by defense attorneys who cite NFPA standards the department adopted but did not adhere to, claiming their client sustained some type of injury (physical or mental) because of the failure to adhere to specific adopted standards.

When a jusridiction is going to get hit by OSHA, they in reality are more severe than NFPA when it comes to punishment. NFPA basically lays out the guidelines to ensure proper procedures are established regarding training and employer requirements. OSHA is the agency that will build upon NFPA recommendations and establish the health and safety aspects as well as what the organization or jurisdiction is required to do to protect its employees.

[ullrichk]

I'm not particularly fluent in CS, so perhaps someone can point me to the appropriate part of the standard.

I believe that several employers in my area expect us (municipal FD) to satisfy their CS rescue needs. We aren't trained or equipped to provide those services and our SOG's say as much. Are these employers required to verify that we provide those services? I'm wondering if someone in the past obligated us to do CS rescue, or if there's a possibility that these employers are taking it on faith that we can solve all their problems.

[ADSNWFLD]

ullrichk, I feel your pain. We run into that a lot. It is an education thing. We do have CS techs and equipment but even on the best of days probably would not be able to meet the time constraints for a stand by rescue team comming from quarters.
When it comes up by us we send a nice letter to the company outlining our and our regional responce to a CS call. Most of the time that is enough education to satisfy their questions.
kferrara2002, my intent is not to argue with you about the equipment. We have all of that and then some on our Heavy rescue. Without an analysis of Jim's responsibilities I wouldn't recommend a general equipment package.
I don't know about your area but here in the Chicagoland area no one adopts NFPA. They may take bits and pieces and incorporate them into SOG's and other documents, but never entire documents.

My .02 is that their is just to much manufacturer influence in the standards to validate the fireservice ones. Life safety code, National Electric code, underground storage sure they are generally changed to reflect real problems and solutions. Standards like turnout gear, USAR clothing, SCBA, Apparatus, station uniforms, and the list goes on have so much irrelevent stuff in them that they are close to useless.

[jbrescue]

If you look at the OSHA standard and then the NFPA standard you will see an amazing similarity. However, you had better be OSHA complient. We are a non-OSHA state. However, trust me, if we screw up, OSHA will be all over us. The problem will become that this is almost always going to fall into hazmat in some way shape or form That is where they will get you.

[DeputyMarshal]

My .02 is that their is just to much manufacturer influence in the standards to validate the fireservice ones....Standards like turnout gear, USAR clothing, SCBA, Apparatus, station uniforms, and the list goes on have so much irrelevent stuff in them that they are close to useless.

FWIW, if you're referring to NFPA standards, manufacturers aren't allowed to have more than 1/3 of the votes on any standards committees.
They can have influence but they are never even close to a majority by themselves.