Anyone find a smaller 100ft quint than this?

[GFPD2005]

Ok. Our 100ft. ladder tower is getting up there in age. Its all just a bunch of talk right now as to what people want to replace it with, but most want something smaller. The beast is almost 50ft. long (bucket to tail) and has a 252 inch wheelbase. There are alot of places in the district that we won't even think of taking it due to its size.

I believe NewJerseyFFII pointed this one out to me. Its a KME 100ft. stick that is smaller than alot of 75ft sticks out there.

http://www.warrenfireequip.com/wellington1.htm

OAL 36.91ft. WB 208in.
•K.M.E. Fire Apparatus ~ Predator X-MFD custom chassis w/6” raised roof
•Caterpillar C-13 525 horsepower diesel engine
•Allison 4000 EVS automatic transmission
•Seating for four firefighters and a interior cab “EMS” compartment
•2000 GPM Waterous CSU-Y single stage pump
•650 gallon UPF Poly IIE water tank
•K.M.E. Fire Apparatus ~ aluminum ladder body w/ROM painted roll-up doors
•100’ four section ladder w/“IQAN” motion control system for the ladder with at display screen at the turntable
•“STRAIGHT SHOT” Hosebed right side body
•Elkhart “Vulcan” wireless electric remote monitor
•Front downriggers
•Side mount pump panel w/one 2 ½” and two 1 ¾” crosslays
•A 1 ¾” crosslay in the front bumper extension
•10,000 watt PTO hydraulic generator with 4 Fire Research 1000 watt light heads
•Ground ladders: 30’ two section, 28’ two section, (2) 16’ roof, 12’ folding, 14’ attic

Does anyone know of any other quint out there that can come close to this or beat it in terms of OAL, WB, and tank capacity? And I dont think you can put 650 gals of water on a 100ft. Metz.

This is basically a 100ft ladder (650 gallon tank to boot!) in the footprint of a 75ft ladder.

[CooterRob]

Your size is going to depend on 2 factors...

-Tank Size

-Ladder Size

You're going to have to sacrifice one or other due to weight distribution on the rear axle. You also might have to venture into the world of the "Dayton" 33,500 lb. rated rear end. That's whole other topic in itself! LOL

[FWDbuff]

http://www.toyne.com/delivery.asp?navigationid=7&page=newdeliveries&did=114

Only 500 gallons, but it has a bucket.....I've seen the piece in person, and I couldnt believe how short it was, the picture does it's short length no justice.

[CooterRob]

Your size is going to depend on 2 factors...

-Tank Size

-Ladder Size

You're going to have to sacrifice one or other due to weight distribution on the rear axle. You also might have to venture into the world of the "Dayton" 33,500 lb. rated rear end. That's whole other topic in itself! LOL quoting myself... if you intend on keeping short in a single axle you'll prolly be bumped into a "Dayton" rear end. Tandem axle's are nice for the weight, but they do make a bit longer by their nature.

[RedBaronl32]

GFPD

Not only can we give you that much water but we also give you the Shopping Cart so you can ride up to the top. Just remember though that those short wheel base tandems (no matter who builds them) will scratch off a set of rear tires in the neighborhood of every 5,000 miles, plus if you don't get the weight balanced correctly you'll be pushing around corners instead of turning. Good looking rig.

Buff, is that an RK and what is the OAL?

[CooterRob]

GFPD

Not only can we give you that much water but we also give you the Shopping Cart so you can ride up to the top. Just remember though that those short wheel base tandems (no matter who builds them) will scratch off a set of rear tires in the neighborhood of every 5,000 miles, plus if you don't get the weight balanced correctly you'll be pushing around corners instead of turning. Good looking rig.

Buff, is that an RK and what is the OAL? I have personally seen 2 KME tower ladders near me that "push" and "squat" their rear ends due to being over weight for the rated axles. It makes me cringe every time I see them hit a bump... DOH!!!

[RedBaronl32]

I don't know if this is on one of the other forums. This was like the Phoenix accident, the truck was going around a corner.

http://www.vertikal.net/en/videos.php?video=17

[CooterRob]

I don't know if this is on one of the other forums. This was like the Phoenix accident, the truck was going around a corner.

http://www.vertikal.net/en/videos.php?video-17 link didn't work.

[RedBaronl32]

Sorry, I gotta work on that.

[VanIsleEVT]

Is it just me?

I only see three ladder sections, maybe it's only a 75'.

[CooterRob]

Is it just me?

I only see three ladder sections, maybe it's only a 75'. IDK, but it says 100'. It's definitely not 30 ft. from the ground to the turn table!!! LMAO

[npfd801]

GFPD

Buff, is that an RK and what is the OAL?

Tony-

Definitely an RK aerial, and the length from bucket to back end is 42'-9". Wheelbase is 240".

Remember Tony, I buy a decent breakfast. If you're coming through the area and looking for a free meal, same team or not, call me. I consider you a friend and it would be good to see your smilin' face again.

I have the drawing for this rig, if anyone else has questions on the Carroll tower.

[RedBaronl32]

Sounds good to me Amigo, check out the link.

[WoodbridgeFFII]

This is " WoodbridgeFFII " formerly known as " New JerseyFFII " I purchased a new Dell PC , New Internet service, & New E-mail address and could not get back onto my Firehouse Forums log-in so I had to change my member user name. The 100' Kme stick with a 500# tip load has a ( 36'-6 " ) to ( 37' ) O.A.L. !..

[ChiefSquirrel]

I'm willing to be wrong, but does any manufacturer make a 100 foot stick or ladder tower on a single rear axle? My only guess would be that Metz might.

I'm pretty sure that Pierce, KME, Smeal, ALF, EOne dont.

Anyone know?

[mpullen32]

Take a look at metz http://www.metz-apparatus.com/ladder.html

[ffmedic20]

http://www.toyne.com/delivery.asp?na...veries&did=114

Only 500 gallons, but it has a bucket.....I've seen the piece in person, and I couldnt believe how short it was, the picture does it's short length no justice.

yes, its a "short" wheelbase. the bucket hangs out over the cab further though.

[KyleWickman]

I'm willing to be wrong, but does any manufacturer make a 100 foot stick or ladder tower on a single rear axle? My only guess would be that Metz might.

I'm pretty sure that Pierce, KME, Smeal, ALF, EOne dont.

Anyone know?

I thought that E-One does? Boston FD, Newark?

[npfd801]

I thought that E-One does? Boston FD, Newark?

Seagrave will do a 100 foot rear mount on a single rear axle. Everything I've found is that E-One can no longer do the single rear axle 100 footer. Neither can be had with a pump and water, and I believe the Seagrave gives up some tip load ratings as compared to some other 100 foot aerials on the market depending on the angle of elevation, etc.

Like everything, if you want that short, single axle wheelbase and 100 foot bad enough, you may have to give up something.

[CooterRob]

Seagrave will do a 100 foot rear mount on a single rear axle. Everything I've found is that E-One can no longer do the single rear axle 100 footer. Neither can be had with a pump and water, and I believe the Seagrave gives up some tip load ratings as compared to some other 100 foot aerials on the market depending on the angle of elevation, etc.

Like everything, if you want that short, single axle wheelbase and 100 foot bad enough, you may have to give up something. This a Seagrave straight stick on a single axle with a pump... IDK about water.

http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e152/Cooterrob/r6_image1.jpg

Here's another from my area.. an 1981 Seagrave stick.

http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e152/Cooterrob/IMG_1367.jpg

[hookandcanman83]

This a Seagrave straight stick on a single axle with a pump... IDK about water.

http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e1.../r6_image1.jpg

^that is maplewood nj. 200 tank

http://www.fdnytrucks.com/files/html/otherstates/Essex%20County/Maplewood.htm

[VanIsleEVT]

For safety alone, why would you ever put that much weight on a single rear axle.

[CooterRob]

For safety alone, why would you ever put that much weight on a single rear axle. I agree, but not everyone has the option to have massive ladder trucks. Most new apparatus have such a low center of gravity that, that part of the safety issue shouldn't play in. If you rate your axle high enough, suspension and components there shouldn't be an serious issue. The only issue would be is being bumped up to a 33,500 Dayton bud wheel rear assembly and having to pay the price for the general maintenance on them.

[chiefengineer11]

I agree, but not everyone has the option to have massive ladder trucks. Most new apparatus have such a low center of gravity that, that part of the safety issue shouldn't play in. If you rate your axle high enough, suspension and components there shouldn't be an serious issue. The only issue would be is being bumped up to a 33,500 Dayton bud wheel rear assembly and having to pay the price for the general maintenance on them.
You can only put so much brake on each axle, and there's only so much footprint on the road surface. That translates into a limit of brake friction and/or creating heat faster than it can be dissipated. In the meantime, when the friction between the square inches of rubber on the road and the road surface is overcome, you lock up and slide. What it all comes down to is, when you have that much weight, you need more wheels to carry it around and more brakes to stop it.

Stay safe out there, everyone goes home!

[JREGANGFA]

Boston FD currently has 100' single axle aerials on order with E-One. Believe it or not the BFD jakes were not happy with the P brand aerials. They also have a few E1 pumpers on order as well.

[CooterRob]

Boston FD currently has 100' single axle aerials on order with E-One. Believe it or not the BFD jakes were not happy with the P brand aerials. They also have a few E1 pumpers on order as well. I wonder why they weren't happy??? Oh wait maybe cause the "kool aid" blamed them for misuse by using ti take out windows and such... BUILD A BETTER LADDER THEN!!! I heard BFD canceled the order for the "kool aid" pumpers? Hey anyone know anything about FDNY and Pierce... they ordering anymore of those Rescues?

[JREGANGFA]

I wonder why they weren't happy??? Oh wait maybe cause the "kool aid" blamed them for misuse by using ti take out windows and such... BUILD A BETTER LADDER THEN!!! I heard BFD canceled the order for the "kool aid" pumpers? Hey anyone know anything about FDNY and Pierce... they ordering anymore of those Rescues?


The word is the FF's didnt like the wider jack spread and the low aerial handrail height when compared to their old E1's.

[CooterRob]

The word is the FF's didnt like the wider jack spread and the low aerial handrail height when compared to their old E1's. oh.. hey well at least they're going to be happy. I am not a fan of the newer EONE apparatus, but to each their own. Good for them though...

[metrobob]

I don't know too much about HME, but I saw "The Arsenal" at a show this year. It seemed quite impressive for all of the features onboard.

If you a looking for a "bucket", I really think you are going to be very limited due to weights, etc... talk to RedBaron.

Have you thought about going with an 85' bucket? That may increase your tank capacity.

[mpullen32]

www.fallsfire.com as an 100ft single axle

[PureAdrenalin]

www.fallsfire.com as an 100ft single axle

never mind the 100ft single axle..what is being done about this kind of driving!?!?!?!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F6fmT9WjnDw

[npfd801]

never mind the 100ft single axle..what is being done about this kind of driving!?!?!?!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F6fmT9WjnDw

Well, technically - it looks like they had the green when the entered the intersection... :)

[npfd801]

I think one of the things to look at with these single axle aerials is the load charts. Now I can't state as fact this is true, but what I've been led to believe is that these aerials typically won't have the heavier 500# tip loads (I believe while flowing water) at all angles and elevations. A prior E-One aerial rep clued me into this on the E-Ones, and I believe this is also the case with the Seagrave. Again, I'm not 100% positive on this, but worth looking into. Not saying this is a bad thing by any means, FDNY still buys medium duty aerials, as has Chicago. These guys don't seem to have aerials crashing to the ground.

Obviously the Metz has a different story with regards to tip loads and such when rated as a straight stick, but Tony can get into that if he wishes...

[VanIsleEVT]

I would have to disagree with the lower center of gravity. Ladders of today, for the most part are heavier then the ladders from years ago. It was very common to have 100' sticks on single axle chassis in the 60's, but not in this day and age. Ladders are required to have much higher tip loads and there's only one way to accomplish that, thicker wall steel or steel with a higher tensile strength. Unfortunately most North American manufacturers choose the heavier wall requiring larger axles, springs and tires. The Metz aerial , and others in Europe, use higher tensile steel that's why they are able use only one average sized rear axle.

[Gonzo25]

CE11, lowering the total surface area of rubber touching the road won't generally make a difference in braking capacity. Having knobby tires cuts through ice and mud to contact hard ground, but that's a different issue...

The goal when stopping any moving object is to dissipate the kinetic energy into another form. Brakes dissipate it in the form of heat. When stoping a vehicle, a force must be applied to cause a negative acceleration (commonly called a deceleration) along the vector of travel. If a piece is moving with 400,000j (or 400,000 grams*meters) of energy, and an opposing energy source providing 10,000 force grams of energy is provided, it will take 400m to stop the object.

The magnitude of possible force is a function of several frictions as well as mass and velocity: brake to rotor friction, tire to road friction, and rolling energy of wheels plus kinetic energy of the object.

The issue here is the frictional limits of the tire to road system. In calculating this frictional limit, however, only two factors are considered: static coefficient of frriction, and normal force. The static coefficient of friction is a coefficient determined by the textures of the road and tire surface, and the normal force is the force acting on a perpendicular plane to the surfaces in the system. Ultimately, the coefficient of friction is not a function of area, and number of tires does not affect normal force to a significant degree. By halving the rubber-to-road suface area, we double the normal force applied to each area.

This means that having fewer tires has no impact on overcoming friction, and as such has no effect on the ability for the truck to stop.

[donethat]

Speed is the much bigger issue when trying to stop a rig.
Going back to my high school physics class.

Kinetic Energy = 1/2 x (Mass) x (Velocity x squared)

Since the amount of braking energy is a function of the square of the velocity, a small change in speed has a huge effect on the stopping distance.
Going from 20 mph to 30 mph more than doubles the braking energy required.

The solution is to slow down and quit buying 500 hp engines. Put a 23 year old in a rig with 500 hp and good things cannot happen.

DoneThat aka. Crusty Old F##t

[RedBaronl32]

Gonz I'm saving this one!

I can honestly say that in the last ten years I have almost heard it all. I always know it's going to be a long day when the first thing I get roped into a discussion about is "how much water can she flow" first of all my demo trucks are He's not She's. If this is the number one priority for an expensive aerial ladder then somebody is using the wrong playbook. (MHO)

The second "worst - awful" discussion is about needing ten wheels to stop the truck.

When purchasing an aerial the first thing you need to do is determine the mission and where the mission will be taking place for the next twenty years. This is most important if you are a company or department with only one aerial for your entire district.

Size matters! Regardless of what you may think a big truck is not going where a smaller truck can go. The truck needs to be as small as possible to get the job done the highest percentage of times.

Continuing with "worst - awful", now that you have probably determined that a single axle will better suit your needs you need to do something about driver education. A single axle truck with plenty of horsepower, proper gearing and an engine retarder under the control of a skilled operator is an awesome piece of equipment. Still not sure, throw in a transmission retarder or a Telma and it's like throwing out T.C.'s sloop anchor.

Please don't let anyone bring up snow and rain as an argument. In these conditions we must rely solely on the skill of the operator. I don't care how many wheels or brakes you have all bets are off in these conditions. On wet roads I'll use the "jake", when it's snowing that's open for discussion depending on road condition. I have seen and I am sure some of you have also seen stopped vehicles with as many as 18 tires on the ground just start sliding away from a totally stopped position.

The truck must always be under the control of the operator and a skilled operator using the tools available in a modern driveline can certainly maintain control. We must remember that the most important part of "getting there" will probably be the last 500 feet when the truck must be able to be placed in a position where the aerial can reach the target.

[VanIsleEVT]

Baron,

Because you should know, what is the actual inservice weight of your typical Metz 100' ladder with a pump and tank?

[RedBaronl32]

48,000# loaded ready to go.

[chiefengineer11]

This means that having fewer tires has no impact on overcoming friction, and as such has no effect on the ability for the truck to stop.
Hmmmm... Now I'll have to consult my local police department reconstructionists. I know from extensive experience bobtailing in my trucking days that the only thing scarier than bobtailing a tandem axle tractor was doing it with a single (what I owned).

I'll be away for a few days, got some kind of a small fire truck to deliver. I'll try to learn more when I get back.

Stay safe out there, everyone goes home!

[FWDbuff]

Philadelphia Fire has one quint, 75' stick, 400 gal of water, all on a single rear screw. They currently put brakes on the thing every 6 months.

They also have several snorkels, all much heavier, and on twin drive screws. These get brakes every 12-15 months.

Chiefengineer11 has also brought up scopes and brakes in the past: twin screw scopes vs. single screw scopes and brakes. It was said back in the old days that an FDNY mechanic could change brakes on a scope with his eyes closed and one hand tied behind his back.

Esplain, Lucy.

[Command6]

They also have several snorkels, all much heavier, and on twin drive screws. These get brakes every 12-15 months.


FWD,
I won't relive my days in Physics 101 because I might have Post Traumatic Stress Disorder:eek: :eek: . But I can tell you this much is true. We have an 85ft Snorkel on a dual rear axle. It tips the scales in the low 60's. Being a 1988 model, it was built under and older NFPA standard and we were able to get disc brakes all the way around; in addition it has a transmission retarder.

The braking system gives very little trouble, and the rig will stop better than most of our pumpers

C6

[RedBaronl32]

Buff, is the mileage the same on both rigs? We used to use almost all tag axles on our straight trucks at Duie and I dont know why they don't use a 16" tag that you can pull up out of your way when the going gets tough.

[VanIsleEVT]

A typical 24,000 lb rear axle has 16.5" x 7" brakes, if it's drum brakes. I don't care how big of an axle you put under there all you'll get is 16.5" x 8" brakes. But by adding the second axle you gained another set of 16.5" x 7" brakes PLUS four more points of contact on the road and we all know that traction is the ultimate factor to determine how fast you can stop.

Seems like a no brainer to me, but what do I know I'm just a mechanic.

Here's what really gets me. If you have a dump truck, refuse truck or concrete truck that needs to carry more weight per axle then what is legal, you simple spec more axles. Why is it that the fire service insists on overloading axles and tires or asking for special weight rating? Our trucks are always loaded, accelerate and brake under extreme conditions. To purchase or build very heavy single rear axle trucks just so that someone doesn't require a special license to drive that vehicle is ridiculous and unsafe.

[Sandinmyboots]

A typical 24,000 lb rear axle has 16.5" x 7" brakes, if it's drum brakes. I don't care how big of an axle you put under there all you'll get is 16.5" x 8" brakes. But by adding the second axle you gained another set of 16.5" x 7" brakes PLUS four more points of contact on the road and we all know that traction is the ultimate factor to determine how fast you can stop.

Seems like a no brainer to me, but what do I know I'm just a mechanic.

Here's what really gets me. If you have a dump truck, refuse truck or concrete truck that needs to carry more weight per axle then what is legal, you simple spec more axles. Why is it that the fire service insists on overloading axles and tires or asking for special weight rating? Our trucks are always loaded, accelerate and brake under extreme conditions. To purchase or build very heavy single rear axle trucks just so that someone doesn't require a special license to drive that vehicle is ridiculous and unsafe.

VanIsle - think you are right on here! The major issue may never come to light, or it might - in the courtroom. Do you think that some "Personal Injury Attorney" would not have a field day with the single axle weight and brakes?
In today's world of litigation (to the uninformed - LAWSUITS) I think it would be wise to CYA!
Just my observation -

[skylifter]

I think that the rollover shown is a Bronto.
It's pretty obvious that the people that righted it were hoping to total it, because the aerial wasn't in bad shape up to the point of the winch truck pulling it around.

[Gonzo25]

Ultimately, I think "donethat"'s solution to the problem is definitely the most sound

CE11, as for your bobtailing problem... I'll have to think about that at a better time than 12:30AM. I'm sure there's a geeky reason for it, but my noodle is a bit baked right now.

[FWDbuff]

This means that having fewer tires has no impact on overcoming friction, and as such has no effect on the ability for the truck to stop.

I have driven aerial devices with water, pumps, and single drive screws.

I have driven aerial devices with water, pumps, and twin drive screws.

I have driven water TANKERS with single drive screws.

I have driven water TANKERS with twin drive screws.

The twin screws always won out in stopping performance.

That being said, I'll do what CE11 is too polite to do-

Drop the bullscheit flag on Gonzo25's above statement.

[RedBaronl32]

Buff, Amigo couldn't you wait until the 26th to lower the boom on Gonz!!!!

If he comes down stairs this morning and didn't get that little Metz Collectible he asked Santa for and then reads your response it's going to take the Christmas Spirit right out of him. Buff the Grinch!

On a more professional note I agree that tandems bring a lot to the table handling wise until we need to get off the street or within ladder range of our objective. At this point the single axle is much better suited for the job (most times). A properly equipped single axle chassis with a skilled driver makes a much better rig for an aerial. When we go to tankers and switch to hose as opposed to rungs then we have the flexibility to use a tandem.

A Merry and Blessed Christmas to you and your family Buff and to evryone else on the forum on this my favorite day.

[FWDbuff]

Yeah I should have waited.....It was actually about 0130 X-Mas morning when I posted that- I was aggrivated from playing mass assembly line for an almost-3 year old and a just-turned 4 year old. The living room looks like a Toys-R-Us exploded in it. This morning the men were happy because Santa didnt leave any coal or toy shopping carts in their stockings. When they asked me about it, I told them the bad boys and girls in Chester County get toy shopping carts, coal, and reindeer **** in their stockings.

He'll be ok, Santa brought him a Pierce die-cast collectible and a daisy jug of that specially 'stilled Appleton moonshine.

Just be careful of the hangover- you wake up in a hotel room in Appleton, and you can't remember that you signed a build contract the day before....:eek:

[FWDbuff]

until we need to get off the street or within ladder range of our objective.

I bet you've gotten that tiller places you wouldnt get that Kraut Wagon! ;)

[WoodbridgeFFII]

Philadelphia Fire has one quint, 75' stick, 400 gal of water, all on a single rear screw. They currently put brakes on the thing every 6 months.

They also have several snorkels, all much heavier, and on twin drive screws. These get brakes every 12-15 months.

Chiefengineer11 has also brought up scopes and brakes in the past: twin screw scopes vs. single screw scopes and brakes. It was said back in the old days that an FDNY mechanic could change brakes on a scope with his eyes closed and one hand tied behind his back.

Esplain, Lucy.Our Mack/Scope on a single axle has been very good on brake jobs, due to the fact it has a ( Man Trans ) and can be down -shifted when we come up to a traffic light. Also out of the 400 -450 calls per year, the aerialscope may only go out on 250 calls. any large city would go threw brakes ,tires , trannys , faster than a small Vol department. I think our truck only has a 24,000 lb rear end !....

[VanIsleEVT]

Woodbridge,

There are probably a few things your Mack/Scope does not have which allows it to perform on a single rear axle. Keep in mind that I'm only going to assume here. It most likely has no pump, no water tank and very little compartment space which equates to far less equipment weight.

[WoodbridgeFFII]

Woodbridge,

There are probably a few things your Mack/Scope does not have which allows it to perform on a single rear axle. Keep in mind that I'm only going to assume here. It most likely has no pump, no water tank and very little compartment space which equates to far less equipment weight.You are correct on everything, our mack/scope 75' maybe lighter than a 75' steel quint with 400 gallons of water & equipment. It is to bad the Feds forced builders to go with dual rear axles because of the GVW ratings on all 75'Aerialscopes . These trucks can get into some tight places where other aerials can not , we have backed our Scope onto homeowners lawns to get to fires behind buildings. The photos below are of our 75' Aerialscope setup on a lawn at a working house fire in the Woodbridge waterfront area !..

[VanIsleEVT]

I do agree with adding the second axle. A tandem rear axle does not make a truck less maneuverable. A tandem pivots from the center point between the axles. You can essentially have the same wheelbase truck but have two rear drive axles and all the benefits that go along with it ( two more sets of brakes, four more tires, etc. etc ).It's a win win situation. What you will give up is compartment space but if you ask me it's well worth it.
For that house fire you had the rig parked on the lawn.........you'd have four more tires for traction to get you out once you poured all that water on the lawn and created a sink hole.:)

[WoodbridgeFFII]

I do agree with adding the second axle. A tandem rear axle does not make a truck less maneuverable. A tandem pivots from the center point between the axles. You can essentially have the same wheelbase truck but have two rear drive axles and all the benefits that go along with it ( two more sets of brakes, four more tires, etc. etc ).It's a win win situation. What you will give up is compartment space but if you ask me it's well worth it.
For that house fire you had the rig parked on the lawn.........you'd have four more tires for traction to get you out once you poured all that water on the lawn and created a sink hole.:)That house fire was on a very cold winter morning about 5 degree above zero with 30 MPH winds. The lawn was frozen so with the house set back on a hill 100 ft from the street we where the only ladder company that backed up the hill to get the job done. Two other 100 ' stick quints could only operate from the street without much luck !....( Sometimes smaller is better ).

[Gonzo25]

I have driven aerial devices with water, pumps, and single drive screws.

I have driven aerial devices with water, pumps, and twin drive screws.

I have driven water TANKERS with single drive screws.

I have driven water TANKERS with twin drive screws.

The twin screws always won out in stopping performance.

That being said, I'll do what CE11 is too polite to do-

Drop the bullscheit flag on Gonzo25's above statement.

That's fine, buddy, you don't need to believe me. It's simple kinematics, and it's fact. I'm just trying to bring a little science to the table, but I certainly can't stop you from basing your decisions on your "feel" over a few hundred years of scientific fact.

[Rescue101]

Gonz,all that theorum is nice but here's my "feel"on it.All that technical BS doesn't amount to too much when you push that pedal down on a set of smoked up,abused shoes and the response is "today ain't your day".Been there done that.T.C.

[RFDACM02]

This means that having fewer tires has no impact on overcoming friction, and as such has no effect on the ability for the truck to stop.

OK, but more braking devices do have an effect? At some point the number of square inches of brake friction must have an effect on the stopping distance regardless of how few or many tires are in contact. Three axles have more braking surface by which to absorb the heat and forces. Four tires may have the same stopping distance if the braking system is sized the same as 6? Very few of us are locking up the tires and rely on the brakes to slow us to a constant decelaration and then to a final stop. I'm trying to reason out you scientific method here.

[RedBaronl32]

Thanx T.C., you got it. Why buy extra pieces because you think your guys can't drive. Proper use of transmission and other braking systems should allow that the wheel brakes are always fresh when needed. Simple fact with no scientific formula is that if your on the brakes all the time your going too fast.

[FWDbuff]

Thanx T.C., you got it. Why buy extra pieces because you think your guys can't drive. Proper use of transmission and other braking systems should allow that the wheel brakes are always fresh when needed. Simple fact with no scientific formula is that if your on the brakes all the time your going too fast.

What does it mean when a Metz is spinning rubber? :eek: :D

(I predict a "oh my aching ***" comment......:p )

[Rescue101]

Oh Tony! The occasion was a already overloaded truck being towed for OOS.The condition occured because of a situation that was neither preventable nor forseeable.It worked out fine with defensive driving and a little fancy footwork.Remember,I live in the Mountains and this ain't my first rodeo.I just know from over 34 years of commercial wheelholding that any driver who believes that his brakes are going to get them out of every bad situation is in for a RUDE awakening one day.Buff,his *** won't be really aching for about 5 more months.Then the circuit starts and the posterior is probably gonna get busted.We do what we can,hehe T.c.

[Ha11igan]

Not saying this is a bad thing by any means, FDNY still buys medium duty aerials, as has Chicago. These guys don't seem to have aerials crashing to the ground.


Look at the area those aerials respond to. Odds are they are going to be used at a high angle where there is less chance of a failure, so why buy a heavy duty ladder?

They have Aerialscopes to extend off to the side.