How to Spec a Truck

[hinesfire]

Since our Departments origin in 1934, we have never owned or ordered a NEW piece of fire apparatus.
Now that I better understand my shortcomings in AFG grant writing our dept is going to apply again for a new engine.
Can anyone help direct me to information or relay their experience in writing specs for the purpose of obtaining preliminary costs etimates?
Other than some basic wants, I/we are totally lost on the whole process of spec'ing apparatus.
Thanks in advance.

[firepundit]

Since our Departments origin in 1934, we have never owned or ordered a NEW piece of fire apparatus.
Now that I better understand my shortcomings in AFG grant writing our dept is going to apply again for a new engine.
Can anyone help direct me to information or relay their experience in writing specs for the purpose of obtaining preliminary costs etimates?
Other than some basic wants, I/we are totally lost on the whole process of spec'ing apparatus.
Thanks in advance.

The simplest way is to make a written list of all items on your wish list. Pick a few brands you wouldn't mind having and fax copies of the wish list to the dealers for those manufacturers. The dealers will then call you and complain about things they cannot do and some things they simply don't want to do. This is your chance to evaluate who is going to cooperate and who will not. I know the Pierce "experts" will not like hearing this but, most apparatus on the market today is fairly well built. As a customer, your dealer representative will be the most important link to you getting what you want.

When you have identified dealer reps you feel will work with you, have them run your options through their pricing systems. Those systems will then turn your 2 or 3 page wish list into 120 pages of detailed specifications. Some systems will allow the dealer to give you an electronic copy you can edit and some won't. Either way, it is much simpler to start out with this long wish list and whittle it down than it is to develop 120 pages of detailed specifications from scratch unless you just love typing, research, writing in the passive voice.

This is the way the majority do it, anyway. A lot of people talk about how they "wrote specs" when all they did was write a few pages out of the hundred or so. Some cities have their own specifications that they truly did develop on their own over the last several decades but it is more uncommon than common.

[FWDbuff]

If I have told people this once, I have told people this 100,000 times......

You need to IMMEDIATELY, IF NOT SOONER, purchase a copy of The Fire Apparatus Purchasing Handbook, By William C. Peters.

It is published by "that other" Fire Magazine. I admit, that it is a bit pricey (I bought mine quite a while ago at about 50 bucks I think....) But let me tell you, it has been read cover to cover several times, not only by myself, but by the 1/2 a dozen or so friends/co-workers that borrowed it. The pages are quite dog-eared from much use.

I am highly confident that several of the "usual gang of idiots" that lurk on here :p will back me up on this one...The wealth of information contained within its pages is well worth the money you will put out for the book.

Now go here with your credit card handy!!!!!

http://www.pennwellbooks.com/apparatus.html

[Firefighter807]

Content deleted by author.

[FWDbuff]

I wrote this a while back.

1. Review all the manufacturers you are interested in. Agreed.
2. Choose ONE manufacturer that you like and build your truck around their product line. (Since no manufacturer will shear sheet metal to suit you and compromise their building practices, get the idea out of your head that you have the ability to make a truly CUSTOM rig.) Sounds like the mating call of a Pierce salesman. Toyne built our truck to OUR specifications!!! Seagrave would have, but their pricing was a bit out of our league.......Pierce said they couldnt do it.....Imagine that!
3. Have them give you a price. Negotiate it! Naturally.
4. Go to the powers that be and get the financing. Usually a good idea to do this ahead of time so that you know exactly how much money you have to play with......
5. Screw competitve bidding... It's a sham anyway! Wastes the time of the salesmen from the companies you don't want. Muddies up the water. Kinda hard to get around it when it's a law!!!!!
6. Order your rig.
7. Manage the contract as if your life depends on it... because it does.
8. Live happily ever after!

Sales are built on the relationship of the salesman and the department. Want proof? Why would anyone buy an American Lafrance, an Elite, or a New Lexington? They are all having issues but it doesn't seem to effect the ability of the salesman to sell "his friends" those brands.

If there was a #9 it would be "get a certified copy of their financial report, get a bid and performance bond, and a late delivery penalty clause."

As the old saying goes, "With friends like that..."

That Kool aid is really doing damage to those crain bells, son.

[DFDMAXX]

If I have told people this once, I have told people this 100,000 times......

You need to IMMEDIATELY, IF NOT SOONER, purchase a copy of The Fire Apparatus Purchasing Handbook, By William C. Peters.

It is published by "that other" Fire Magazine. I admit, that it is a bit pricey (I bought mine quite a while ago at about 50 bucks I think....) But let me tell you, it has been read cover to cover several times, not only by myself, but by the 1/2 a dozen or so friends/co-workers that borrowed it. The pages are quite dog-eared from much use.

I am highly confident that several of the "usual gang of idiots" that lurk on here :p will back me up on this one...The wealth of information contained within its pages is well worth the money you will put out for the book.

Now go here with your credit card handy!!!!!

http://www.pennwellbooks.com/apparatus.html

Well, this idiot has never heard of this book. So I am glad you posted it. We are in the very early stages of specing a replacement engine. I'll take all the help I can get.

[BoxAlarm187]

I remember when 807 posted that crap originally in another thread about a year ago, I just shook my head. What happens when someone who doesn't know any better follows this advice and gets shafted in the end? It's a pity.

I have to agree with FWD, get Bill Peter's book. I've had my copy for well over 6 years (probably longer) and it's a great place to start. He's right that it's a lilttle pricey, but well worth it.

I'm sure that some of us on here can send you sample spec's we've used along the way if you need us to.

Don't hesitate to ask questions. There are a lot of folks in this thread that have spec'd a lot of rigs, learn from our mistakes in the past. Also, spend some time reading the threads in the apparatus innovations section here ... many of the questions you may have (or didn't even know you have yet) might have already been answered.

Let us know what else we can do to help!

[FWDbuff]

The Fire Apparatus Purchasing Handbook,
by William C. Peters, Battalion Chief and Apparatus Supervisor (Ret.), Jersey City (NJ) Fire Department
This text details the step-by-step instructions needed to write specifications, go out to bid, evaluate the bids, inspect the apparatus, and save your department money. Chief Peters provides insight into various apparatus features, real-life mishaps, maintenance programs, and warranty information that will help you and the department purchase the right vehicle for the job.

Contents:
Do we need a new rig? Justifying the purchase • Apparatus types and features • Refurbishment vs. new purchase • Getting started • Documenting your needs • Special apparatus features • Apparatus electrical and warning signals • Equipment • Writing the final specifications • Going to bid • Bid evaluation • Preconstruction conference and intermediate factory inspection • Final inspections • Delivery and training • Preventive maintenance and warranty • Epilogue • Index

Buy Fire Apparatus Purchasing Handbook from Fire Engineering Books & Videos today!

382 pages/Softcover/1994
0-912212-33-0

Not only does this book give insight to every reason NOTto listen to firefighter807, it QUALIFIES the answers.

[toddmcbr]

Here's a link to the book. However a lot of the pages are omitted so you'll still have to buy it. I was actually surprised to see so much is available in a preview though.

http://books.google.com/books?id=EY_iHhbdWpYC&printsec=frontcover#PPA348,M1

[RedBaronl32]

I also have had Bill's book for 5 or 6 years, good stuff. What I really liked that he wrote was an insert for I think Fire Engineering where he said that a Hybrid between an aerial and a tower would be nice. Really good stuff.

[Rescue101]

Another Country heard from.Didn't use the book to build our last four although for the money it's a valuable resource.My advise: Take a little time to figure out what you want the rig to do over it's SERVICE life.Figure in potential changes to response type and run numbers(increases).Pay no attention to 807,most locales require competitive bidding. DO NOT drink the koolaide! Contrary to his ravings you CAN get a Custom rig if you want one.Get a rig that suits your communities needs,not your neighbors. Good luck,T.C.

[Firefighter807]

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[FWDbuff]

Somebody warm up the slide projector for the 12-step program presentation........

It seems that all you other guys do is rant about how **** poor your service is and how you have been "taken" by unscrupulous salesmen and have to live with crap for a fire engine. Who is ranting about **** poor service? Who is complaining about being "taken" by unscrupulous salesmen? We have been treated like royalty by Toyne from day one, even well before they were awarded the contract to build our engine. Their sales reps were nothing but receptive to our every inquiry, returned phone calls in a timely manner, did not pretend to know answers to questions by telling is outright they had to get back to us. Service thus far is a non-issue as Toyne and Spartan have built a top-notch piece. There were a few "punchlist" items at delivery, but they were taken care of no questions asked and no pestering on our part required.

Our department has used the above method to buy dozens of apparatus. Well goody for your department. I can only hope your organization isn't governed by municipal spending laws. And if your organization happens to be a privately incorporated volunteer fire department that receives funding from a municipality, guess what....You're not immune from the laws......Anyone can let the XYZ Apparatus Company write their specs for them so that XYZ is guaranteed the sale.

It works for us and you don't ever hear me complaining about our rigs. That because your brain cells are so damaged from XYZ's Kool Aid. If you ARE goverened by spending laws, I can only hope you dont complain if ABC Apparatus Company files a complaint with your municipality when you purchase the next truck, and you wind up with an ABC!!!

We did have an issue at the delivery of a pumper a couple of rigs ago. But since we discussed the matter with our dealer, all has been well since. They just spiked the mind-altering chemicals in the kool-aid.

Who ever buys a rig by thinking they know more than the manufacturers about building a fire truck is like being your own lawyer. You have an idiot for a client! Who ever implied they know more than the manufacturers about building a fire truck? We wrote our specification, and the winning bidder agreed that they could build what we wanted, that it was within their capabilities and accepted engineering practices. YOUR boys submitted us a bid that wasnt even CLOSE to what we wanted, which is why their bid ended up in the trash can.

Look, do this poor guy (as well as everyone else who comes on here asking for advice on how to spec/buy a truck)- just keep drinking your kool aid, because then you can't preach bad information to them. If your people want to go to jail, thats their perogitive, dont drag another innocent agency with them.

[BoxAlarm187]

OK, I'll bite.

At work, we have 33 Pierces in front line service and 2 in reserve (mostly Quantums, but a few Lances and Dashs mixed in for good measure). The oldest is a reserve 1997 Quantum pumper, the newest is a 2007 Dash 100' RM tower ladder.

For the most part, we've had good luck with the Pierces, I won't lie. A couple of them have presented thier fair share of problems, but what manufacturer doesn't? Our agency will push 50,000 calls this year, and the Quantum I ride is doing 2500 runs a year. So they do get some abuse.

About the service center? It sucks! And we're talking about a service center that opened 2 years ago, has 16 bays, and belongs to a dealer that covers two-and-a-half states and has a nearly an unlimited budget (they just opened a 40,000SF service center and headquarters). The local service center had one of our tower ladders for a YEAR while installing a new fly section ... oh yea, one of two fly sections we had fail during ladder testing in one year.

Yes, you can use the method you're desribing and buy a fire truck...and be prepared to be taken advantage of if the salesman knows he has your sale. You're kidding yourself if you think this isn't happening. A salesman can easily bump his commission 1% or 2% on the sale of a tower ladder and make significant profit, on top of raising the price a little bit to futher pad his (and his dealers) pockets. Again, you're kidding yourself if you think this isn't happening!

We're bidding a new pumper at the VFD. We've had a number of meeting with various vendors, and are using a spec that many of them can comply with. We'll have a pre-bid meeting and explain our expectations of the completed apparatus. This will allow the vendors to explain what the can and can't do, and what WE can expect from THEM. This keeps us from being your so-called "idiots." They know the business better than we do ... we'll get our education from more than just the black-oval representatives.

If you haven't noticed by now, no one pays any attention to what you say simply because you've lost your credibilty. Your refusal to acknowledge that anyone but Pierce builds a quality apparatus speaks volumes about how close-minded you are. Sit back and read for a while, you might learn something...

[Firefighter807]

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[hinesfire]

Boys....boys.....
Thanks for those who addressed my question. Thanks to the rest for providing the additional entertainment.

Now, heres where I need help.
I am going to submit for an AFG grant that has been providing vehicles in the past in the $200k-$250k range. The authorities in the grant program say they fund chevy's not cadillacs. I've already concluded that we are not gonna get much custom from a custom pumper.
Our basic needs are 6 man cab, 1250-1500 pump, 1000 gal tank. Our small VFD has low call volume, about 30 fires a year, only assist EMS with true rescue/extrication, about another 40 calls. Total volume is about 60-80 per year.
We would love bells & whistles, but we are realists. Our annual budget is less than $45,000, pays for stipend, insurance, building loan, lights etc, nothing for vehicles and we have no money in a capital reserve. Whatever money we contribute will simply be obtained thru a commercial loan.
As my first post indicated, since 1934, we have never had any vehicle from new. Honestly, we dont have a clue. What I can see is if we are successful in obtaining a Grant, it will be in the low $200's. Now, how do we approach manufacturers when we already know the budget, do we simply ask what can you supply for $225,000?
Any documentation those who are willing to share their expertise can send to hinesfire@yahoo.
Thanks in advance

[BoxAlarm187]

"BoxLunch" ... I like that. :D

While sifting through your post, I did agree with one point that you made: know what you need to purchase before you ask for the money. Betcha didn't know that I woulda thought about that, huh? :cool:

How do we do it? Fill out NFPA 1901-Annex B approximately 24 months prior to the purchase of the said vehicle. We then send that to all prospective bidders and solict thier input about the vehicle. The other thing that we have them do is submit a projected price that the specified vehicle will cost in 2 years. Most manufacturers will do this, some will not. Armed with this fact-based information, it gives us the ammunition we need to approach the jurisdiction and justify the money needed. So far, using this method, we've come within $10k to $15k within budget, and the county hasn't had a problem paying this for us either.

As for this:...But then he would have to take out features like independent front suspension, side roll protection, electronic stability control, better cabs, hands free SCBA brackets, bigger frames, better electronics, more attention detail, and craftsmanship...Well, let's talk about these things:

IFS: available from manufacturers large and small
SRP: available from manufacturers large and small
ESC: available from select manufacturers
Better cabs: Where is bettercabometer? Is this not subjective to the user and/or purchaser?
Hands-free SCBA brackets: Currently a Pierce exclusive, but only for a few more months. The new Zico brackets are a nice alternate, though.
Bigger frames: Do bigger frames always translate to stronger frames? Which is stronger: a 13" frame with a lower RBM or a 10" frame with a higher RBM?
Better electronics: Again, how do make comparisons better the Pierce Command Zone and the Weldon V-Mux? Both a very reliable systems. Is Pierce's better becuase it's proprietary?
More attention to detail / craftsmanship: Something else that's in the eye of the beholder. I've seen A+ work and F- work from all manufactuers, Pierce included.


I know all of this is falling on deaf ears because you're so convinced that FWD and I are idiots. That's okay, I don't mind, I've been called names on the 'net before. Do you notice the different between him and I though? He'd rather **** on a Pierce than drive it, and I happily ride a Pierce every day. However, I also recognize that a informed purchaser that does his homework can buy a vehicle that meets his or her needs, and it doesn't have to come from Appleton. And that doesn't mean it's junk.

I welcome your response...

[Catch22]

Boys....boys.....
Thanks for those who addressed my question. Thanks to the rest for providing the additional entertainment.

Now, heres where I need help.
I am going to submit for an AFG grant that has been providing vehicles in the past in the $200k-$250k range. The authorities in the grant program say they fund chevy's not cadillacs. I've already concluded that we are not gonna get much custom from a custom pumper.
Our basic needs are 6 man cab, 1250-1500 pump, 1000 gal tank. Our small VFD has low call volume, about 30 fires a year, only assist EMS with true rescue/extrication, about another 40 calls. Total volume is about 60-80 per year.
We would love bells & whistles, but we are realists. Our annual budget is less than $45,000, pays for stipend, insurance, building loan, lights etc, nothing for vehicles and we have no money in a capital reserve. Whatever money we contribute will simply be obtained thru a commercial loan.
As my first post indicated, since 1934, we have never had any vehicle from new. Honestly, we dont have a clue. What I can see is if we are successful in obtaining a Grant, it will be in the low $200's. Now, how do we approach manufacturers when we already know the budget, do we simply ask what can you supply for $225,000?
Any documentation those who are willing to share their expertise can send to hinesfire@yahoo.
Thanks in advance

I have to ask, if you're a small VFD, why do you need a six-man cab? Will a commercial chassis with a four- or five-man cab not do the job? Just a Chevy vs. Caddie thing.

Also, are you planning on putting in for the NFPA equipment in the grant? That's going to add to your amount, as well.

Do you lurk around the grant forum much at all? If not, I'd do so. A lot of guys have a lot of knowledge on the grant process. You're in the right spot to learn about the trucks, just make sure you put all the pieces together from both resources to make sure you have a good shot at getting the grant.

[hinesfire]

I have to ask, if you're a small VFD, why do you need a six-man cab? Will a commercial chassis with a four- or five-man cab not do the job? Just a Chevy vs. Caddie thing.

Great question. We are a small department, with a total of just 2 class 1 pumpers, (insert: apparatus donations gladly accepted ) and we have 16 members. Believe it or not, we usually fill the trucks on a large percentage of the calls, current seats (3 + 6).
We also hope to equip the engine off it's replacement for the vast majority of necessary equipment, as we have been sucessful in grants for hose, fittings, tools, saws etc. The rules with AFG are if you have to replace a non-compliant, aged truck, they want it permanantly out of service. So this truck will only replace something we already have (1974 Ford/Pierce). We see more advantages to carrying 6 folks, but if the funds won't go there, it wont.
I have spent alot of time reading on the grant forum, but I suspect the apparatus experts run here.

[FWDbuff]

He'd rather **** on a Pierce than drive it, and I happily ride a Pierce every day

Not true! Not True!

I know that it's been a while since I have said it, so I will say it again. I think Pierce builds a fine product, when two things happen:
-They build it to your specification
-You sit on top of their engineers

I have 10 years under my belt as a DoD firefighter, 4 years for the Dept of the Navy, and 6 years for the Dept of the Army. In those 10 years, I rode, drove, and operated on almost exclusively Pierce apparatus, with a spattering of Oshkoshes here and there, an E-One or two we wont talk about that......Actually now that you mention it E-One is the one I would rather **** on!) and A seagrave or two (in fact, at my last post, the Seagrave ran circles around the Pierces!!!)

What I dont like, is the way Pierce and some of it's sales and service representatives do buisness.

But the biggest pet peeve of all.....People like our friend and some of his minions who think that Pierce is the second coming of Christ.

Oh, and 807, that was a nice story. Made me feel all warm and fuzzy inside. Now heres a story for you-

Hulmeville Fire Company, Middletown Township, Bucks County, Pa.

Have a good one!

[DFDMAXX]

As I contently sit here warming my fingers over the flames of heated passions that guys like Box Lunch and FWDbuff (Firefighter With Dimentia) bring to the forum, I am reminded of the story of the "Fool and Firetruck". Let me share it with some forum cranial/rectal inversionists.


Now you're just embarrassing yourself.

[Catch22]

Great question. We are a small department, with a total of just 2 class 1 pumpers, (insert: apparatus donations gladly accepted ) and we have 16 members. Believe it or not, we usually fill the trucks on a large percentage of the calls, current seats (3 + 6).
We also hope to equip the engine off it's replacement for the vast majority of necessary equipment, as we have been sucessful in grants for hose, fittings, tools, saws etc. The rules with AFG are if you have to replace a non-compliant, aged truck, they want it permanantly out of service. So this truck will only replace something we already have (1974 Ford/Pierce). We see more advantages to carrying 6 folks, but if the funds won't go there, it wont.
I have spent alot of time reading on the grant forum, but I suspect the apparatus experts run here.

That makes sense. I'm just not sure if it's going to be easy to 1) justify the funding for a custom cab for 30 runs/year, and 2) get a custom cab for that price range without skimping on something else. It's possible, don't get me wrong, I'm just used to automatically thinking commercial cab with smaller vollie departments (I'm the chief of one about the same size as yours); lower cost, service closer, etc. If they allow apparatus winners to apply again this year, I think we're going to try for a pumper as well.

What I did in our process for the pumper/tanker (won't say it was the right way, but it worked for us) was to get with about 3 mfgs I was willing to work with and told them the basics I was looking for, including some bells and whistles. I let them give me a rough estimate and wrote the grant with what I felt was probably the most reasonable cost, including a little extra to make sure I had enough should prices jump. As it worked out, all were right in the same price range.

Each company had a recent deliveries website with pictures. Before I made the calls I looked on their site and happened to find one or two on each site that looked like what we were after. They were able to send me the specs and a CAD drawing and I could tell them what we wanted that was different, as well as being able to pick up some things we hadn't thought of. Why reinvent the wheel, right? I also spent a lot of time getting information on here and talking with guys who had the trucks I was looking at to see what worked, what guys liked, etc.

You're definitely right on where the apparatus experts run, that's what I was trying to say closing my last post.

I've got narratives for a 3rd round pumper/tanker and a 1st round quick attack, if you need them or want any other info I might be able to help with, feel free to drop me a PM or email.

[Catch22]

What I dont like, is the way Pierce and some of it's sales and service representatives do buisness.


I tried to resist the urge, but couldn't. :D

This statement is my feeling towards them. I tried to get the sales rep for our area to bid on our pumper/tanker. I started calling every two to three days to try to get a hold of him, leaving messages every time. I started 6 weeks prior to bid opening. After two weeks, I quit calling. A week later (3 weeks prior to bid opening), he decided to call me back. This guy had the audacity to yell at me and chew my butt because I didn't give him enough time to get a bid together. I pointed out I had first called 3 weeks prior and he called me a liar.

Two years later, I call the next closest Pierce dealer. I tell them my situation and the story above, and that I'm willing to give Pierce a shot at this truck, but there is no way in hell I'm going to work with the above dealer. He calls me back over the next few days telling me he's waiting to hear back from headquarters. Then I go several days without hearing anything. I call him back, he says he's yet to hear anything and he'll call me back within the hour. Pierce wouldn't allow him to sell to me and said that I could only work with the dealer for our area. Wouldn't even allow me to go factory direct.

I also had a bad experience with our Rosenbauer dealer, and refused to work with them again. I did the same thing as I did with Pierce, called the next closest dealer. Within two hours I had a call from a guy at the factory, followed by the salesman from the dealer. They wouldn't allow the dealer to sell to me, but would be more than happy to work factory direct.

The difference here is CUSTOMER SERVICE! I'm sure there are other builders taht would do the same as Pierce, and I'm sure others would do the same as Rosenbauer, but those are the two I have experience with in that particular situation. As a result, I have told this story to many chiefs I have connections with. I know for sure of several that sent bid requests to Rosenbauer who weren't going to do so because of the above story. I also know of several who opted not to send a bid request to Pierce. This is a perfect example of how word-of-mouth can work and what treating customers right/wrong does for you. That's not including the hundreds of thousands of dollars that I could have spent with them, and any money we may spend on apparatus in the future.

[MG3610]

This guy is asking for help and the rest of you are totally sidetracking his thread; learn to ignore the frivolous nonsense and lets help this guy out.

[MG3610]

We just accepted delivery of a new engine (not on any grants), and heres a bit about how we went about it.

Step one was to come up with a concept. Basic vehicle overview consisting of pump size, tank size, required seating, required amount of hose and some maximum size dimensions.

Step two was making contact with vendors to have preliminary meetings. We met with four vendors, and it doesn't matter who. Pick a few that you are interested in and schedule meetings. In the time that surrounded step one and two, we visited a regional fire expo near us and sat in every kind of fire truck imaginable, took a few hundred photos and alot of notes. This was helpful deciding which vendors to call upon.

The first meeting with each vendor was to present our concept, meet and greet and gather more detailed info. We asked them to come back with a preliminary concept specification and drawing. All the while, we were writing our own specifications that would be going to bid, and using the info that was being returned to us from vendors to shape our documents.

Another thing you need to do is talk to the guys here, extensively. ALOT of good information is available from them. Look for the regulars and pick their brains. This is one thing I did that gained me some good insight on crucial components. (Thanks again guys!!)

Step 3 was meeting two with each vendor to review the initial proposals, and start talking alternatives (prices). We saved alot by listening to options we hadn't considered, and gained in other areas we initially felt we would suffer. For example, we gained LED compartment lighting when we felt we couldn't afford it.

Step 4 was meeting again to do the same thing, only talking more definitively and going over details. We may have met with one or two vendors a few more than 3 times, but I forget.

Once we had drawings, manufacturers specs and all our questions asked, we knew what we could get for our money. We updated our spec document to allow competitive bidding within our requirements and turned it over to the boss. KME came back the winner. They ended up building a very nice product, and put alot of fine hand craftsmanship into it.

If you need more, email me. mg0178@yahoo.com

[BoxAlarm187]

This guy is asking for help and the rest of you are totally sidetracking his thread; learn to ignore the frivolous nonsense and lets help this guy out.

Already doing so via personal message. ;)

[MG3610]

My other post sounded a bit rash, but my point remains the same. We can close our eyes to the nonsense and keep this on the right track. Theres alot of good info each of us can contribute without lowering ourselves to the level of name calling.

[Engine305]

Manufacturers have what is called a grant fund apparatus. Basic workhorse.
Ahrens Fox Build-A-truck has one to configure online. E-One has one too (American Eagle). Contender by Pierce also has online apparatus configuration. American Lafrance also. Try these sites for the basics. Good luck in your quest. I may know of some mid 80's trade in pumpers that may be sold.

[Rescue101]

I don't know why I allow myself to get dragged into this crap.First off if you drink the koolaide and buy a rig because of the badge and your belief that the MFG knows best then I suggest there is a village missing it's *****.NO ONE in Appleton or anywhere else on the planet knows better what WE need in a rig than US the end user.For those who think that you CAN NOT get a true "Custom"truck,I suggest you look in names that DO NOT start in P.One must work WITH the local dealer and mfg to get a vehicle that suits the individual needs and yet satisfies all the nuances that our misguided truck "expert"thinks he knows the answers to.If you think you need a Pierce and only a Pierce to mitigate your emergency,I feel sorry for you.Nothing wrong with the vehicle or company(other than $)but many,many communities have been handling their emergencies for many years with other makes.Going back to what I said earlier:Figure out what you want the vehicle to do,talk with SEVERAL builders,get some ideas from other agencies and shows then build a truck to serve the long term needs of your community.In today's competitive market you can have a nice rig for the money you've got.And there is NO perfect firetruck.Some come close but there's always a better idea floating around somewhere. T.C.

[RKSmith163]

OK, I'll bite.

At work, we have 33 Pierces in front line service and 2 in reserve (mostly Quantums, but a few Lances and Dashs mixed in for good measure). The oldest is a reserve 1997 Quantum pumper, the newest is a 2007 Dash 100' RM tower ladder.

For the most part, we've had good luck with the Pierces, I won't lie. A couple of them have presented thier fair share of problems, but what manufacturer doesn't? Our agency will push 50,000 calls this year, and the Quantum I ride is doing 2500 runs a year. So they do get some abuse.

About the service center? It sucks! And we're talking about a service center that opened 2 years ago, has 16 bays, and belongs to a dealer that covers two-and-a-half states and has a nearly an unlimited budget (they just opened a 40,000SF service center and headquarters). The local service center had one of our tower ladders for a YEAR while installing a new fly section ... oh yea, one of two fly sections we had fail during ladder testing in one year.

Yes, you can use the method you're desribing and buy a fire truck...and be prepared to be taken advantage of if the salesman knows he has your sale. You're kidding yourself if you think this isn't happening. A salesman can easily bump his commission 1% or 2% on the sale of a tower ladder and make significant profit, on top of raising the price a little bit to futher pad his (and his dealers) pockets. Again, you're kidding yourself if you think this isn't happening!

We're bidding a new pumper at the VFD. We've had a number of meeting with various vendors, and are using a spec that many of them can comply with. We'll have a pre-bid meeting and explain our expectations of the completed apparatus. This will allow the vendors to explain what the can and can't do, and what WE can expect from THEM. This keeps us from being your so-called "idiots." They know the business better than we do ... we'll get our education from more than just the black-oval representatives.

If you haven't noticed by now, no one pays any attention to what you say simply because you've lost your credibilty. Your refusal to acknowledge that anyone but Pierce builds a quality apparatus speaks volumes about how close-minded you are. Sit back and read for a while, you might learn something...

I have the same Dealer as you and have had excellent results with the Service Center's. To have an unlimited budget as you claim, they must be doing something right. In my part of the state, once you own a Pierce 90% will reamain Pierce houses. I am sorry you had a bad experience with the Service Center. There may have been extenuating circimstances that you were not privy too. We too have had Pierce's since 1987 and have been very pleased with them. Godspeed

[BoxAlarm187]

I have the same Dealer as you and have had excellent results with the Service Center's. To have an unlimited budget as you claim, they must be doing something right. In my part of the state, once you own a Pierce 90% will reamain Pierce houses. I am sorry you had a bad experience with the Service Center. There may have been extenuating circimstances that you were not privy too. We too have had Pierce's since 1987 and have been very pleased with them. Godspeed

I'm pleased that your experince has been good with your particular shop. In the case of the tower ladder that was there for a year, it came down to one thing: the shop folks weren't dedicating the time to it that needed to be. Simple as that. I know this because not only am I on the apparatus committee, I know everyone in the shop becuase I used to do some part-time work with thier marketing folks. The shop has way too much work, and not enough staff, and some rigs get ignored in the fray.

Like their parent corporation, the dealer's marketing and business savvy is unmatched in the region. There are a multitude of reasons they're selling WELL over 60% of the rigs in Virginia every year. Some of it is blind allegiance. No one argues that they're selling a quality product, but the price for the product is just unreal.

As I stated earlier, we have well over 30 in service at work, and we have a smattering of them in my volly county too. The quality is good, but the service center for my area has been declining for a long time. It's not just me saying this, I'm echoing what I hear from a number of collegues in neighboring jurisdictions. In fact, it's been enough to sway some departments away from getting another "black oval" becuase they've seen that the service after the sale isn't there.

Just to be clear, the tons of Pierces that I ride (and have ridden on) are quality, well built machines, with an above-average fit-and-finish. My bigger gripe for this particular topic is the post-delivery service.

[RKSmith163]

I'm pleased that your experince has been good with your particular shop. In the case of the tower ladder that was there for a year, it came down to one thing: the shop folks weren't dedicating the time to it that needed to be. Simple as that. I know this because not only am I on the apparatus committee, I know everyone in the shop becuase I used to do some part-time work with thier marketing folks. The shop has way too much work, and not enough staff, and some rigs get ignored in the fray.

Like their parent corporation, the dealer's marketing and business savvy is unmatched in the region. There are a multitude of reasons they're selling WELL over 60% of the rigs in Virginia every year. Some of it is blind allegiance. No one argues that they're selling a quality product, but the price for the product is just unreal.


As I stated earlier, we have well over 30 in service at work, and we have a smattering of them in my volly county too. The quality is good, but the service center for my area has been declining for a long time. It's not just me saying this, I'm echoing what I hear from a number of collegues in neighboring jurisdictions. In fact, it's been enough to sway some departments away from getting another "black oval" becuase they've seen that the service after the sale isn't there.

Just to be clear, the tons of Pierces that I ride (and have ridden on) are quality, well built machines, with an above-average fit-and-finish. My bigger gripe for this particular topic is the post-delivery service.


I know they have suffered some growing pains at times. I hope things have stablized now and the quality of service in your area gets better. Good talking to you.

[Firefighter807]

Content deleted by author.

[FWDbuff]

According to our Pierce guy, if you wait until you have a spec written, they are not interested. Why? What are they afraid of? There is something about Pierce that they don't want to bid off someone else's specs. Oh god forbid they actually have to do some work and sort through a set of specs!

Perhaps if you got with your Pierce guy BEFORE you wrote your own spec, you might have got a Pierce. Why? So that the Pierce guy could have handed them a set of specs and said "here, put your name on here?"

What did you wind up getting? They probably got a decent truck.

Perhaps if your Pierce man did business ethically, he wouldnt be afraid of a generically written set of specs that any manufacturer could have met and/or exceeded.

Hey 807, a question for ya- How come we never see any Pierce reps in here defending the way they do things?

[Rescue101]

Our experience is much like Catch's.The last Engine we built,Pierce was asked for a RFP.They declined to respond even after numerous calls from the Chief. Same with the current Platform project.If this is the interest they have on a million dollar project,Please tell me again why I would give Pierce the time of day much less my hard earned money and business. I doubt VERY HIGHLY that after these two experiences that we will ever consider a Pierce in any future dealings.We build rigs to suit our communities needs not off a mfgs cookie cutter sheet. There are other builders out there that can and will work with you to build a vehicle to suit the needs of your community and provide service after the sale meeting or exceeding the almighty Pierce. T.C.

[Catch22]

According to our Pierce guy, if you wait until you have a spec written, they are not interested. There is something about Pierce that they don't want to bid off someone else's specs.
That is the dumbest business decision I can think of for an apparatus builder. Not that it's applicable to my situation, as our "specs" was merely a list of what we wanted (chassis, size of pump, style of body, etc.). I actually attempted to talk with the company prior to the bid process, when we were seeing if our grant amount would cover a pumper/tanker with a full pumper-style body or not as well as to get some literature on their products. Guess what... no return call after four attempts/messages.

Perhaps if you got with your Pierce guy BEFORE you wrote your own spec, you might have got a Pierce.
My job is not to approve my specs through a dealer. My job is to tell the dealer what I want for a truck, his job is to bid that truck. You can also see the above, where I called him prior to even writing specs.

What did you wind up getting?
We got a Rosenbauer on a Kenworth chassis. If you'll read my entire last post, you'll see the story there.

If you've got a decent dealer/salesman and you like your Pierce's, good for you. But the fact remains that Pierce has lost hundreds of thousands of dollars of apparatus (just that I know of) because their dealer for our area. I know numerous chiefs that refuse to even bid a Pierce (including some that would rather have one than what they ended up getting) because of this crap.

If Pierce really wants to sell trucks, they need to go back to the basics of business: making the customer happy.

[Ha11igan]

We used basically a Pierce spec and ended up with another brand, at great savings, with MORE customization and features.

We did suffer on the fit, finish, and details.

That is what gets me is why the low bid companies can have those problems on a 300k piece of apparatus.

[Ha11igan]

If Pierce really wants to sell trucks, they need to go back to the basics of business: making the customer happy.


They have been on top for years. What are you talking about?

[Catch22]

They have been on top for years. What are you talking about?

See my last two posts and you'll see what I'm talking about. Mine is not an isolated experience. As I've stated, I know of many, many departments that won't purchase a Pierce product because of the dealer that serves us. I know of one chief that's been a Pierce man all his career that won't buy one from this dealer. His department is looking at ordering $2-3million worth of trucks in the next couple of years.

If they're content with repeat customers purchasing a truck every few years, so be it. But if they want to sell trucks to anyone/everyone, they need to find out what problems they're having with the dealers, with their headquarters, and then how to fix them.

Sorry for continuing the hijack. I'm done with my rant.

[Catch22]

By the way... Hines, did you get the info I emailed? Never heard anything back, just wanted to make sure it got through.

[ctt447]

Hinesfire,
For 200k to 250k and for the call volume you run, you can spec yourself a very operational rig. For starters, I would recommend going with a commercial chasis (Freightliner, International, or Mack) or a basic custom chasis like a Spartan.

Example of one:

http://www.kingstonfire.org/images/Engine9.jpg

2000 e-one commercial pumper on 2000 freightliner fl80 4 door chassis

Engine - cummins isc 300 horsepower turbocharged
Transmission - allison md 3060p 5 speed automatic
On-spot automatic tire chains
Pump - hale single stage 1500 gpm
Booster tank - 500 gal.
Foam system - williams advent
Foam tank - 30 gal.
Westerbeke 7.6 kw diesel generator w/ (2) remote start consoles
Will burt nightscan chief light tower w/ (2) 750 watt quartz halogen lights

The beauty of it is, if you choose a commercial chasis, you still have the money and the option of going with a "Big Boy" in the business or a smaller vendor to do the pump and body.

WHATEVER you do, I highly reccomend that you develop a RFI of RFQ first. Sit down with a committee from your department and develop a wish list. Start wtih the bare essentials and go from there. Think about the future and call volume increasing or response area changing. Come up with this list, itemize it by chasis, cab, pump, compartment space, generator, hosebed, blah blah blah (I can email you a copy of one we did last year if you need an example). Send the RFI/RFQ to every and any vendor you can. Give them a deadline to get responses back to you with a ROM (Rough Order of Magnitude) for cost.

Once you get the responses back, go to your municipal powers that be with a request for funding. Develop a spreadsheet/matrix with the responses from all of the manufacturers. Highlight the three manufacturers that your committee feels best met the RFI/RFQ. Take the highest price of the three, add on any new equipment you might need, and submit that number for how much funding you need. Now, if you get a 200-250k grant, then there is nothing saying you can't offset the overall cost with municipal funding. Furthermore, as we all know, grant funding is anything but guaranteed and it continues to dwindle away.

What I can tell you is my department over the last year and a half has gone from an RFI/RFQ process to taking delivery of a custom piece of apparatus. We had no prefence when we did the RFI/RFQ as to what manufacturer we wanted to go with. We knew a few we DIDN'T want to deal with based on other departments experiences and news in the industry. However, we can't do anything when it comes to the bid process.

We took our RFI/RFQ matrix, along with an equipment wish list and went to the town and asked for one number and promised to stay within that number. They were shocked, amazed, and delighted to find out that upon delivery that we got everything we wanted and stayed within budget. Furthermore, the RFI/RFQ process saved us thousands of dollars. The simplilest way to prove that is to compare what our 2008 engine cost against what other departments have/are paying for similar engines. And at the end of the day, you'd probably be suprised who we went with.

Good luck and let me know if there is anything I can help you with.

[Ha11igan]

Drop the foam system and step up to an ISL, you won't be sorry.

[mrmatt2086]

hey ctt, could u send me a copy of that??

mr_matt2086@hotmail.com

[neiowa]

According to our Pierce guy, if you wait until you have a spec written, they are not interested. There is something about Pierce that they don't want to bid off someone else's specs.

Perhaps if you got with your Pierce guy BEFORE you wrote your own spec, you might have got a Pierce.

What did you wind up getting?

We will soon see. Local Pierce rep responded to our RFP (with absolutely the minimal possible effort. Perhaps $300k was of interest without reading the RFP.

They, among others, have our spec. Will see if they submit a bid. My bet is No.

[BoxAlarm187]

Drop the foam system and step up to an ISL, you won't be sorry.


Foam & CAFS are two of the most under-utilized things on rigs today.

[islandfire03]

once you have CAFS you'll never go back to just water again!

Anyone can pump a million gallons of water onto a fire, unless of course you have to haul that water a long distance to the scene.

[FFWALT]

Hinesfire,
There has been good information put out in this thread. One gem in the shape of the references other departments have found useful. The idea to talk with reps about program trucks is a good place to start. Even the banter back and forth about favorite and most hated brands can be educational. There has been a brand listed that another department loved, great truck, great service, great rep, etc. That happens to be a brand I don't like because our department didn't get the great service, great rep, great truck, etc. I've said it before, you have to do what works for your department.
When we were getting specs together for the engine we just ordered the committee plagarized the specs from our custom chassis we liked and the box specs from the last engine since we are fairly standardized on out layout and operation. Gave these to the respective reps, told them our price range, height and length limitations and how we came up with this set of specs, told them to look them over and get back with us. At that meeting they would be able to point out the builder specific wording of the two manufactures we plagarized so we could work towards a generic spec. They could also make suggestions as they saw fit.
After meeting with all the reps the committee revised our specs and sent them out. The city got the bids but at our request did not let the committee know the prices, and then we sat down and evaluated the specs on an in house sheet developed for that purpose. By looking at the different specs side by side, item by item, it really made it easy to rank them and determine which spec's most fit what we put out.
Listen closely to the reps. Had two reps in the station in one day. One would make statements along the line of "We can do that but have you considered....". The other would make statements along the line of "You don't want that". The first one was telling me what they could do and offering suggestions that may help us. The second one was pitching a truck they wanted to build, not the truck we wanted. Big difference.
Good luck with the grant and getting a spec put together.
Walt.

[hinesfire]

By the way... Hines, did you get the info I emailed? Never heard anything back, just wanted to make sure it got through.

Catch, sorry been out of town dealing on a committee working on wildland firefighting cost-share agreements between the feds and non-fed entitees. Then have participated in a Partriot Guard Riders mission also out of town.

Yes I received those and just starting to look them over.
Remember my return offer.
Thanks. Jonathan

[hinesfire]

Wow,
even with the Pierce battles, you guys rock!
It's already more information than I can digest.......can I talk anybody into moving to rural small town Oregon? I'm also leading a recruitment effort!
I'm gonna read everything again, I believe I understand some of the first baby steps in this process (?). So keep firing away, I bet I haven't heard anything yet.
Thanks all, in advance.
hinesfire

[FWDbuff]

Hinesfire- Dont forget to buy that book! Good Luck!

[FWDbuff]

The second one was pitching a truck they wanted to build, not the truck we wanted.

Hmmmmmmmmm...........wonder who that could have been? :confused: ;)

[FFWALT]

FWDbuff,
Alright I'll play along, he reps for one of the brands you listed earlier in this post.
I really enjoy seeing the banter back and forth about some builders. Some of it is good stuff, some is people just confirming they shouldn't reproduce. Also love some of the nick names or tag lines. Although I have never worked worked with, or rode, Pierce I still remember the quote I saw from someone that said the only difference between a Pierce and a piece was the r. Like many other brands I may, or may not, have heard of them but also have no real opinion on them. Then someone else goes and calls my favorite brand Sutphen sufferin. They're lucky it's a free country and they are allowed to have their own opinion about something. Although I secretly suspect they are communist.

[Ha11igan]

Foam & CAFS are two of the most under-utilized things on rigs today.


So are underpowered powerplants that can't get out of their own way.

[Firefighter807]

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[Ha11igan]

Firefighter807's idea of speccing an apparatus:

Call Pierce.
Tell them what you want.
Have them prepare a spec.
Put it out for bid.
When the responses come back and other manufacturers IFS system is not called TAK4, throw the bid out because it is not meeting the spec.
Pierce awarded bid!

[Firefighter807]

Content deleted by author.

[mbarry201]

Wrong! - LOL - We don't put it out for bid.

Who else can build a Pierce?

Do you not have laws in your state that require you to go through a bid process for large purchases such as fire apparatus?

Granted, many departments will use specifications that exclude most manufacturers other than their favored one. I have just not heard of a department being able to skip out on the process entirely.

[Firefighter807]

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[bjlffire]

807:

I hope they arn't being purchased with AFG funds?

[FWDbuff]

Since our apparatus is purchased with a very tight spec (insuring high quality, our unique features, and safety items not found in other manufacturers) we opt to go for the sole source. This allows our council to negotiate the sale without bidding. Basically, they provide us the bids for similar apparatus in our area as well as areas our size around the country. This keeps them from gouging us. Got to go!

Allright there Buckwheat, I'll play your silly game! What are your "unique feature" and "safety items" offered by Piece that other Mfr's dont offer? And before you answer, I again call your attention to that little "research project" I gave you a while back- Middletown Township, Pa.

[islandfire03]

In our state, any municipal agency can "tag on" to another bid or "sole source" any item if that item cannot be purchased any where else. For example; your police department might write a spec around a Ford Crown Victoria patrol car. Is it unfair to Chevrolet? No, because a specific item is wanted based on their own reasons. We do something similar.

Since our apparatus is purchased with a very tight spec (insuring high quality, our unique features, and safety items not found in other manufacturers) we opt to go for the sole source. This allows our council to negotiate the sale without bidding. Basically, they provide us the bids for similar apparatus in our area as well as areas our size around the country. This keeps them from gouging us.

Got to go!
Add in the fact that the council president's brother works for the local Piece dealer and you have a complete non compliant bidding package.

[Firefighter807]

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[Fyrtrks]

Randy:

I have to agree with Firefighter807 on one thing...........





































ANYBODY!
EXCEPT HILLARY CLINTON

[ffmedic20]

To name a few...

1. No AFG money for our rigs.

2. Torsion rod independent front suspension. not better or worse than others-marketing at its finest

3. Multiplexing from the manufacturer, not a third party. BS, they dont make it, they purchase from the manufacturer

4. Cabs, chassis, bodies, and ladders from one (1) manufacturer. not including engines, transmissions, axles, brakes, so on and so forth.

5. Foam system from the manufacturer, not a third party. BS again, purchased from the manufacturer, not made in house.

6. UL Certification to NFPA 1901 for each apparatus. doesn't everyone do this?

7. 13" frame rails with a 50 year service life in writing. is it 13" for the entire length of the rails? just curious.

8. Side roll protection, ESC, air bags, and now hands free SCBA brackets. except for the brackets, others do that. oh and the brackets, do scott 4.5 units fit in the brackets without flopping around?

9. Dealer service center within 20 miles of the department. that is a plus.

10. Our council president is a doctor and none of his siblings have anything to do with the Pierce dealer. He doesn't have to be when the dept is addicted to the kool aid.

Guys - face it - it is just a better rig. Get over it.

Here... take a small drink. It won't hurt ya.

[mbarry201]

[QUOTE=Firefighter807;914921]To name a few...


7. 13" frame rails with a 50 year service life in writing.



http://forums.firehouse.com/showthread.php?t=92696&highlight=corrosion

So much for that "lifetime warranty".

[toddmcbr]

807...explain to me why 13" frame rails are needed?

[Ha11igan]

[QUOTE=Firefighter807;914921]To name a few...


7. 13" frame rails with a 50 year service life in writing.



http://forums.firehouse.com/showthread.php?t=92696&highlight=corrosion

So much for that "lifetime warranty".


The Saber chassis did not use 13'' rails. Neither does a Contender.

Everything else does.

[laddertruckgoes]

And on the Seventh Day, God Created the Pierce Firetruck

Funny, my town has a 2004 Enforcer. It breaks down just as much as the next truck. In fact, the Perfect Pierce decided it didn't want to play anymore while in the middle of a relay operation at a 3 alarm apartment fire.

If it helps any, there were several other brands of apparatus operating that day that managed just fine.

Pierce's are allowed to be POS's too. Every manufacturer has their good ones, and their bad ones. Just some people spend a lot more moeny to polish up their turds then the next.

[Ha11igan]

In Pierce's defense I have been to the plant and EVERYTHING there is top notch.

From the all star treatment to the graphics department to the paint booth everything is top notch.


But I ride a Pierce that has corrosion problems, among other things.


Do other manufacturers go the extra mile to treat their customers like kings?

[RFDACM02]

807...explain to me why 13" frame rails are needed?

Then explain why a 50 year warranty is needed? More useless numbers in a marketing scheme.

[Rescue101]

Take a look under a WM garbage "scow"sometime and let me know if you find a 13" rail.Hint: YOU WON'T! Now these trucks run under greater loads and harsher cnditions than any firetruck ever produced.Just another piece of unnecessary marketing BS. Rails are rated in RBM's not inches of depth.You can have a 10"rail that is actually STRONGER than a 13" rail.But as a koolaide consumer you're probably oblivious to this fact. T.C.

[Ha11igan]

So some departments love Pierce, so what?

Aren't you suppose to write a spec for what you WANT?