Front bumper attack lines and tool mounting positions?

[Fire562]

I am curious about peoples opinions of having (1 1/2, 1 3/4) attack lines off of the front bumper. Some of the positives I've seen, It keeps the spaghetti pile from happening at the pump panel when some one goofs on a shoulder load. Your able to nose the apparatus in and operate from the front if you have a narrow roadway or parked vehicles. This is my opinion I would like to hear yours?

The other topic Im interested to see opinions on is tool mounting. Ive seen the tool boards, tools buried in compartments with other tools on top, and slide out drop down trays. The one place everyone seems to overlook is the front bumper and on the back of the cab by the pump panel. My idea behind this is quicker access, quicker knock. Having some basic tools mounted; Forcible entry battering ram, haligan bar, bolt cutters for doors and locked gates/fences, New York hook, boston rake, etc... for the outside vent man. If I dont have to open compartment doors and pull out sliders that increases the chances for a quicker knock. Again this is my opinion what is yours?

[skipatrol8]

I pretty much agree with you. In addition to tools behind the cab, you could also mount smaller FE tools on the bumper (irons, piercing nozzle, etc. Bumper lines are also nice for car fires on highways, as you can walk straight out without putting the hose in the lane, which as well guarded as it is, could possibly slip into the travel lane.

[MG3610]

Here is the bumper on our new 2007 KME, yet to go in service. It features space for 150' 1 1/2", 150' 1 3/4" and 25' 5" intake hose. This is our first rig with such a busy bumper. We also have tools mounted as you describe, and I will take photos tomorrow and post them.

[DrParasite]

Here is the bumper on our new 2007 KME, yet to go in service. It features space for 150' 1 1/2", 150' 1 3/4" and 25' 5" intake hose. This is our first rig with such a busy bumper. We also have tools mounted as you describe, and I will take photos tomorrow and post them.your from West Windsor? I know a bunch of people on WW EMS and EW EMS. was kinda wondering where in Central jersey you were...

anyways, why do you need 150 of 1.5 and 150 of 1.75 on a front bumper?

I like having a 50 or even 100 Ft of primary attack line (1.5, 1.75, even 2 inch if you are Franklin.....) in the bumper as a trash line for minor fires, maybe even for a working car fire on Rt 1 (or any expressway for that matter). nice to have, useful so you don't have to pull a 250 ft preconnect or a line off the bed for a simple fire or washdown.

I would not, EVER, use a front bumper as an attack line for a structure fire.

Also, the only tools I would put in the or one the front bumper would be a winch, combi-extrication tool, a piercing nozzle, or spanner and hydrant wrenches. maybe a set of bolt cutters just to get into a gated property, but that's about it. keep the irons and such in the compartments or the cab.

[MG3610]

anyways, why do you need 150 of 1.5 and 150 of 1.75 on a front bumper?

Flexibility....all hose off the bumper or bed, no crosslays.

I like having a 50 or even 100 Ft of primary attack line (1.5, 1.75, even 2 inch if you are Franklin.....) in the bumper as a trash line for minor fires, maybe even for a working car fire on Rt 1 (or any expressway for that matter). nice to have, useful so you don't have to pull a 250 ft preconnect or a line off the bed for a simple fire or washdown.

This is why we have the 1 1/2" preconnected at 100 feet with the last 50 feet dead loaded

I would not, EVER, use a front bumper as an attack line for a structure fire.

OK. We will, based on the fact than many other FD's in the country do with great success. The hose size is the same as the hose you probably pull from a preconnect or your rear hosebed, what difference does it make that it comes off the bumper? 1 3/4" is 1 3/4", regardless of where its stored...right?

Also, the only tools I would put in the or one the front bumper would be a winch, combi-extrication tool, a piercing nozzle, or spanner and hydrant wrenches. maybe a set of bolt cutters just to get into a gated property, but that's about it. keep the irons and such in the compartments or the cab

[DrParasite]

interesting, never heard of a department using their front bumper in lieu of crosslays......

personally, I would want my crosslays to be 150 and 250 ft, but that's just me. I guess it depends on your primary area as well. I guess that is why I wouldn't use a bumper line for a structure, in my experience they are much too short to be useful.

i should clarrify the 1.5 and 1.75 comment. my question was why have both? most departments I am familiar with use one or the other as their primary attack line. in addition to these small handlines is either 2.5 inch or 3 inch hose for use a backup line or for really big fires.

[MG3610]

interesting, never heard of a department using their front bumper in lieu of crosslays......

personally, I would want my crosslays to be 150 and 250 ft, but that's just me. I guess it depends on your primary area as well. I guess that is why I wouldn't use a bumper line for a structure, in my experience they are much too short to be useful.

i should clarrify the 1.5 and 1.75 comment. my question was why have both? most departments I am familiar with use one or the other as their primary attack line. in addition to these small handlines is either 2.5 inch or 3 inch hose for use a backup line or for really big fires.

Spend some time in the apparatus forum, youll see its becoming a popular trend. Its been doen for years all over the country, but most notably in the metro DC area. Loads from crosslays, to donut rolls, to horseshoes are all found in bumpers. They deploy in mere seconds and offer alot of flexibility.

Our hose setup is as follows...

150 1 1/2" bumper, 100 is precon for trash and cars etc. Smaller, easier to drag around lower flow than structural lines. 50' 1" forestry line for mulch and trash can fires in bumper. 150' 1 3/4" for structural use in bumper.

Our rear hosebed is 400 feet of 1 3/4". About half will be preconnected. 600 feet of 3" with a water thief for courtyard lays, reverse lays etc. 1000' 4", 400' 2 1/2" attack line with nozzle, and 400' 2" preconnected. Our rear beds allow any attack line to be stretched from 50 feet to 400 feet from the bed or extended longer with the 3" and water thief. It allows alot of flexibility.

There is also 100' 2 1/2" preconnect with small Mercury Monitor off the officer side hosewell.

If you want to stop by and check it out semd me a PM.

[pennsyltucky]

I like the idea of front attack lines for the simple fact you can nose the apparatus in and work right off the front. No attack lines to trip over or get tangled up with supply lines at the pump panel. That KME is layed out nice like all of 33's trucks, Good job Spec'ing.

I found this video (courtesy of 33) on youtube showing how the bumper attack line is deployed quicker than the shoulder load.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uMlVizcGXw0

I like the idea of forcible entry tools on the bumper and other hooks,etc... on exterior places, it speeds up entry and knockdown like Fire562 said. It also eliminates tool location explainations to mutual aid companies who are not familiar with your rig. For appearance purposes you stand out as aggressive company vs. a clean everything hidden away parade piece company like 80% of pennsyltucky, but thats beside the point.

[pennsyltucky]

I like the idea of front attack lines for the simple fact you can nose the apparatus in and work right off the front. No attack lines to trip over or get tangled up with supply lines at the pump panel. That KME is layed out nice like all of 33's trucks, Good job Spec'ing.

I found this video (courtesy of 33) on youtube showing how the bumper attack line is deployed quicker than the shoulder load.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uMlVizcGXw0

I like the idea of forcible entry tools on the bumper and other hooks,etc... on exterior places, it speeds up entry and knockdown like Fire562 said. It also eliminates tool location explainations to mutual aid companies who are not familiar with your rig. For appearance purposes you stand out as aggressive company vs. a clean everything hidden away parade piece company like 80% of pennsyltucky, but thats beside the point.

[pennsyltucky]

I like the idea of front attack lines for the simple fact you can nose the apparatus in and work right off the front. No attack lines to trip over or get tangled up with supply lines at the pump panel. That KME is layed out nice like all of 33's trucks, Good job Spec'ing.

I found this video (courtesy of 33) on youtube showing how the bumper attack line is deployed quicker than the shoulder load.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uMlVizcGXw0

I like the idea of forcible entry tools on the bumper and other hooks,etc... on exterior places, it speeds up entry and knockdown like Fire562 said. It also eliminates tool location explainations to mutual aid companies who are not familiar with your rig. For appearance purposes you stand out as aggressive company vs. a clean everything hidden away parade piece company like 80% of pennsyltucky, but thats beside the point.

[npfd801]

I am curious about peoples opinions of having (1 1/2, 1 3/4) attack lines off of the front bumper. Some of the positives I've seen, It keeps the spaghetti pile from happening at the pump panel when some one goofs on a shoulder load. Your able to nose the apparatus in and operate from the front if you have a narrow roadway or parked vehicles. This is my opinion I would like to hear yours?

Keep in mind that you need to look at the operations of your department to see if working your primary lines off the bumper will work for you. A lot of folks don't like the idea of the bumper loads because it may keep an engineer from pulling past a building, which will interfere with truck company positioning. If you work in an area where your truck company equipment is coming off your engines, and you don't have a truck company that will ever be coming, the setup may work well for you. If you're a large city, maybe it won't fit your needs. The thing that irritates me most on here is when someone is adamant that a particular setup is horrible, just because it won't fit their needs. Just because we don't need drop tanks on my department, should all engines then not carry them?

The other topic Im interested to see opinions on is tool mounting. Ive seen the tool boards, tools buried in compartments with other tools on top, and slide out drop down trays. The one place everyone seems to overlook is the front bumper and on the back of the cab by the pump panel. My idea behind this is quicker access, quicker knock. Having some basic tools mounted; Forcible entry battering ram, haligan bar, bolt cutters for doors and locked gates/fences, New York hook, boston rake, etc... for the outside vent man. If I dont have to open compartment doors and pull out sliders that increases the chances for a quicker knock. Again this is my opinion what is yours?

Thousands of options here. Spartan will give you large vertical doors on extended length cabs where long tools can be stored vertically. Your can store them horizontally underneath the rear seats in some custom cabs (even commercials) if the seat boxes allow it. I've seen long tools stored vertically on the exterior of the rear cab as well. I think storing them externally is a fantastic idea as long as they're mounted securely enough that they won't fall off and be a liability to your department. Bolt cutters I'd probably put in a compartment, as I would think the fact that they have moving parts could get fouled up if out in the weather too long.

Having said that, I don't really know how much time my guys are losing opening a roll up door and grabbing a halligan. You'll always have the argument that those extra seconds give a guy some time to have a look at what's going on instead of rushing in with tunnel vision...

[FyredUp]

I would not, EVER, use a front bumper as an attack line for a structure fire.


Why wouldn't you?

Our new rescue pumper has the primary attack lines in the front bumper. The bumper has 2 full width of the bumper crosslays that have 2-200 foot 2 inch preconnects. Both will flow 300 gpm. We like them in this location as they are easy to deploy, and equally as easy to repack.

I guess i am curious as to why you are opposed to this concept.

We also have 2-300 foot 2 inch lines over the pump and an apartment line off the back. This set up gives us great flexibility.

[MemphisE34a]

All I would add is that if you are going to plumb the front, go ahead and use 2 1/2" plumbing, even if you only plan on using a single, smaller line.

The labor cost should be the same, the material cost will be nominal, and you will get credit from ISO or your similar agency for a 250 gpm discharge. Especially helpful when people are spec'ing 1500-2000 gpm pumps.

If you are only planning on using the single, smaller line I would split it with a wye as shown in the picture. You may never plan on using it for a 2 1/2" or two 1 3/4" lines, but the capability is there when the **** hits the fan.

Also, I would not hesitate to use a hose from any location, not just the front bumper, if that was my best option.


As far as mounting tools on the exterior, I am all for it but around here the idea seems to succumb to the risk management folks. Seems they want fewer flying objects should you ever be involved in a crash.

[FyredUp]

All I would add is that if you are going to plumb the front, go ahead and use 2 1/2" plumbing, even if you only plan on using a single, smaller line.

On our rescue pumper, both 2 inch bumper lines have 2 1/2 inch plumbing. They had to to meet our flow requirements.

The labor cost should be the same, the material cost will be nominal, and you will get credit from ISO or your similar agency for a 250 gpm discharge. Especially helpful when people are spec'ing 1500-2000 gpm pumps.

We didn't need the additional credit for a 2 1/2 inch discharge so the lines are finished off with 1 1/2 inch swivels. There is NO way these will ever be other than 2 inch lines. Our pump is a 2000 gpm Q-max. The rig has 5 2 1/2 inch discharges, a 4 inch discharge, a 3 inch discharge for the deck gun, and 4 discharges for 2 inch preconnects. More than enough to max out the flow if we ever needed to.

If you are only planning on using the single, smaller line I would split it with a wye as shown in the picture. You may never plan on using it for a 2 1/2" or two 1 3/4" lines, but the capability is there when the **** hits the fan.

Again a good idea IF the plan is to place a 100 or 150 foot 1 1/2 or 1 3/4 inch line. it would offer some versatility to the set up. We specced these front lines to flow the flows we wanted for structural fire attack and have used them repeatedly as our initial attacks lines. They work great, they are down low which makes them easy to deploy and repack. We pitoted them BOTH to make sure the pump operator was pumping the right pressure for the flows we wanted.

Also, I would not hesitate to use a hose from any location, not just the front bumper, if that was my best option.

I guess I will ask again...Why not? If it meets the flow requirement, has enough hose to get to where you need to be and is the easiest to stretch for that need why wouldn't you use it?

As far as mounting tools on the exterior, I am all for it but around here the idea seems to succumb to the risk management folks. Seems they want fewer flying objects should you ever be involved in a crash.

Just curious is all not trying to start a ****ing contest.

[metrobob]

The attached photo looks like it might work well. High flow capable and easy to deploy and re-pack.

[RedBaronl32]

Some poor engineer worked for years getting us that 45 degree cramp angle, we pay an extra hundred grand for the Vocational cab and then we hang a three foot drawer on the front that needs to go everywhere with you for the life of the truck. If manuverability is not a problem why wouldn't you put the three foot extension in the body where you can go all the way up with it? Just a question.

[FyredUp]

Some poor engineer worked for years getting us that 45 degree cramp angle, we pay an extra hundred grand for the Vocational cab and then we hang a three foot drawer on the front that needs to go everywhere with you for the life of the truck. If manuverability is not a problem why wouldn't you put the three foot extension in the body where you can go all the way up with it? Just a question.

We have a 26 inch bumper extension on our pumper with the 2 - 200 foot 2 inch lines. What's the difference if the extension holds preconnected lines or soft sleeves or hard suction with a low level strainer? The length is essentially the same.

We did what we did to make advancing and repacking the line easier. It is that simple.

[Station25C1]

This works for us 400ft 1/3/4 . two discharges 24" Bumper .

[bfdpipeman]

I like the idea of having a front attack line, but I would be very weary of where exactly I mount it and protect it. I have seen aot of crap get placed on the front bumper while the engine is parked, and I could see an unprotected line get damaged pretty quick.

[bjlffire]

Here is what we have.
100ft preconnect with extra dead 50 on the bottom.

[neiowa]

Some poor engineer worked for years getting us that 45 degree cramp angle, we pay an extra hundred grand for the Vocational cab and then we hang a three foot drawer on the front that needs to go everywhere with you for the life of the truck. If manuverability is not a problem why wouldn't you put the three foot extension in the body where you can go all the way up with it? Just a question.

Unless the supply to the front bumper is routed in a manner that interfers with the front wheels the front bumper will not increase turning radius (see cramp angle). May increase curb to curb clearance which may or may not be relevant.

Putting your "three foot extension" in the center of the truck increases the wheelbase by three feet. That WILL decrease manuverablity by increasing significantly the turning radius.

[ff36ofd]

We have on our pumper/ tanker 200' of 1" preconnect. Our engine, and our rescue both have 100' 1 3/4" preconnect.

[FFWALT]

Fire562,
Once you mitigate the safety concerns of having equipment in the cab I'm all for putting the equipment where it works for you. There are many companies out there that have the brackets to securely mount their tools. There are also companies that only deal in mounting brackets. The best thing is to plan out the truck or compartment if you can so every tool has it's place.
Regarding the front bumper. We have discussed this for years and the comment always comes up about damaging the bumper and having the reels, etc. out of service. Our new engine will have a 2 1/2" reduced with 150' of 1 3/4" preconnected in the bumper. We're looking at dumpsters, car fires, extra line, etc and it will be foam capable. Really think this would shine on a rescue to make it easy to pull and charge.
I like to see the lines in the bumper if they are plumbed for sufficent flow. Every time I look at trucks the hose beds keep getting higher and higher. The fire service is trying to do more with less and that is part of the reason for the height increase. To a certain extent I feel the fire service is to blame because we let the builders put them that high. Of course physics still apply and a 10lb bag won't hold much more than 10lbs.

[ChiefDog]

Fire562,
Of course physics still apply and a 10lb bag won't hold much more than 10lbs.

You hit the nail on the head.... you can't put 10lbs of $#*# in a 5 lbs bag!;)

[ChiefSquirrel]

Our front hosewell has one 1 1/2" discharge in the well (not through the bumper) and we have 150 feet of hose and a nozzle in the well.

100 ft is connected together and layed flat but not connected to the discharge and 50 ft is rolled and sits on top with the nozzle. If we only need a short line, we simply unroll the 50 and connect it but if we need a longer line, it's just two more quick connections.

[Gonzo25]

Our newer engine has 100' of 1.5" preconnected in the front bumper. The setup works nicely for us, as use it as a more modernized version of a booster reel. For small car fires, dumpster fires, brush fires, etc. it works pretty well.

As far as structure fires go? We use 2" crosslays every time. We don't have capacity in the bumper to hold a decent amount of 2", and 1.5 won't cut it on "the big one".

For tools, we keep our most commonly used in the cab (Irons, Denver/TNT, Closet Hook, Pick Axe) and keep the less commonly used guys in our cabinets.

[MemphisE34a]

Just curious is all not trying to start a ****ing contest.
I think I missed it, what was the question??

[MemphisE34a]

I guess I will ask again...Why not? If it meets the flow requirement, has enough hose to get to where you need to be and is the easiest to stretch for that need why wouldn't you use it?
Think I found it, that it?

You may have just read my response too quickly. I didn't say I would not use a front bumper line, I said I would not hesitate to use one. In fact, I have pulled them at house fires before.

[FyredUp]

MemphisE34a:

Also, I would not hesitate to use a hose from any location, not just the front bumper, if that was my best option.

You are right. My apologies for misinterpretting what you said.

[FyredUp]

DrParasite:

Please explain WHY you "would not, EVER, use a front bumper as an attack line for a structure fire"

I could understand if your comment was I would never use a low flow trash line set up off from the front bumper to attack a structure fire. On my volly FD's engine's front bumper there are 2-200 foot 2 inch attack lines. we specced the piping to be able to flow 300 gpm at no more than 20 psi friction loss in the piping. When we got the engine we pitoted it and it flows the 300 well within our spec. Basically what difference does it make what location the hoseline comes from as long as it meets your flow requirements?