Fire Science Degree

[ffexpCP]

Originally posted by firecadet598
Not trying to stray off topic, but what kinds of classes are associated with a fire science degree. I am taking FF1 and some wildland classes. Do they count towards a fire science degree or just a degree in firefighting.

Take a look:
Associate’s Degree: http://www.lssu.edu/degrees/degree.php?id=5024
Bachelor: http://www.lssu.edu/degrees/degree.php?id=5066

We are accredited by the International Fire Service Accreditation Congress. http://www.ifsac.org/

[MikeWard]

Originally posted by RobbyJR307
Ok. Im thinking about going to college (in 6 months) for a fire science degree. I'v been talking with my father and he says that if I go for this nothing will come of it. So is it worth going to college for it and also what all will I get?

Lets cut through the testosterone and turf wars and consider Robby's original question.

There is a huge amount of diversity in "fire science" academic programs. From community college credit for Firefighter I to graduate engineering and hard science research university PhDs.

First, I will agree with Robby's dad that, when considering a major in college, fire science provides a poor return on investment if the goal is a career as a paid firefighter.

As Captain Bob repeatedly points out, most fire departments do not provide preferential considerations for someone with a two-or-four year degree. If you are going to college to prepare for a career in fire-rescue, your best investment is to obtain paramedic certification.

TWO YEAR COMMUNITY COLLEGE FIRE SCIENCE PROGRAMS

Terminal Associate of Applied Science (AAS) degrees are designed for a student to complete in PREPARATION for a career in a craft or trade (hospitality, allied medical technicians, mechanic, computer technician, business office skills, realtor, etc.) In general, completing an AAS in Fire Science DOES NOT increase your chances of getting hired.

Most fire departments are still using 19th century municipal hiring practice. You are hired based on your potential (physical, mental and moral) and the recruit school will provide the needed job skills training.

I run a fire science program with about 200 students. The majority of my students are already on-the-job and are taking classes to prepare for promotion to technician, Lieutenant or Captain.

go to http://www.nvcc.edu/home/mward/ to see my fire science world. Spent 18 of my 25 years as a career firefighter teaching college fire science classes as part-time faculty, a total of 187 semester hours.

FOUR YEAR FIRE SCIENCE DEGREE PROGRAMS

There are three flavors of a four year "fire science" degree.

The most academic challenging is the Fire Protection Engineering degree that is offered at the University of Maryland (College Park) and the Worcester Polytechnic Institute (Worcester, MA). These degrees are similar to civil, mechanical or electrical engineering programs with two years of higher level math, one to two years of hard science and about twenty engineering courses.

Completion of the program qualifies you to start working as a Engineer-In-Training (EIT) and eventually becoming certified as a Professional Engineer. Both universities offer Masters of FPE.
http://www.wpi.edu/Pubs/Catalogs/Gra...t/fpedept.html
http://www.fpe.umd.edu/program/proggrad.html

One of the undergraduate degrees offered by the University of New Haven is for Fire Protection Engineering, but I am not sure if it is accredited by the appropriate engineering council. http://www.newhaven.edu/psps/firescience.html

Many four year fire science degrees fall into the technology arena - not as academically robust as an engineering degree. Oklahoma State, Eastern Kentucky, John Jay (NYC), Arizona State Univ East are some examples.

The third flavor is a four year non-science degree that will lead to a Bachelors in management, supervision. leadership, emergency services, you name it. For example, the completely on-line Fire Science Management (National Fire Academy Degree-at-a-Distance: offered at seven colleges/universities) is an example. Usually requires a year of english, a year of college level math, a year of science/lab and whatever other general education requirements are needed by that educational institution.

Hope this helps.

Mike

Michael J. Ward, MGA, MIFireE
Assistant Professor
http://www.gwumc.edu/ems/ward.html

EMS Management/Leadership - Emergency Health Services
http://www.gwumc.edu/ems/about.html
The George Washington University
Washington, DC

Fire Science Program Head
Northern Virginia Community College
Annandale, VA

[MFF344]

I am working on getting my Fire Science degree right now and I am getting so much out of it that I will be certified in more things than many career firefighters. It is a great course and you learn more than you would ever imagine. I have learned things that I would never even dreamed would happen or have to be done. It is also very fun. Many things will come out of having the degree. Its like what was said before, that is how the working world works these days. Its almost like if you have no degree, you have no job. Its probably a good idea to take it if you are interested. I am getting Firefighter I and II and EMT-B certification, Hazmat Tech., and much more. Its really fun and for once I enjoy school. Good luck to ya.

[CaptBob]

Its like what was said before, that is how the working world works these days. Its almost like if you have no degree, you have no job.

Really? You might have missed the posting above yours.

Is it just a myth?

I wanted to know why this one candidate was in the hiring process? He had no academy, no college degree, no EMT, and no experience. I thought to myself, how could this guy be in the same group as me?

Reply: That’s the myth. Candidates believe they have to accumulate a bunch of credentials to be hired. That this alone will get them the job. The truth is it’s not what you have or don’t have but how you present those credentials. The rubber meets the road in the oral board.

Don’t get me wrong, credentials are great, but we’ve had numerous candidates, like the one you described above with few or no fire related credentials that get hired. They realized they couldn’t compete with candidates with overwhelming credentials. So, they improved their chances by concentrating on the most important part of the process. THE ORAL BOARD!

They converted their personal life experiences into proven oral board skills needed to get that badge! Like you, many believe that it is how the working world works these days. If you have no degree, you have no job. This baffles the other candidates. They can’t or won’t believe it can be done. Right now we have several of these candidates with seemingly no credentials, in the hiring process in major cities across the United States and Canada.

Question from a candidate: Are you trying to tell me that a city would hire a candidate with no fire education or experience? No way!

This from a new recruit from Anchorage:

My name is Casey Johnson. I recently became a PROUD employee of The Anchorage Fire Department. Tomorrow night, my recruit class of 24 will graduate. In the class is a group of guys with widely varying backgrounds, many of which have nothing to do with Fire Departments at all. This goes to prove that fire departments aren't always looking for people with experience, but are more likely looking for individuals with great Firefighter characteristics.

Response from another candidate who did it:

There is a real simple answer to your question . . . most, if not all big city departments require almost none, if any, experience or certifications. Says so right on the job announcement. Unless they are required by the department to test, certs and experience mean squat.

The people who get the jobs are those who can show during the oral board process that they possess the personality, willingness to learn, ability to adapt, and how all of their past life and work experiences have made them well suited for the career. These are the people who blow right by the other wannabes.

You have to be pretty blind and ignorant not to understand why the bigger departments run their own academies . . . so they can teach the recruits “their way”. None of these departments care one bit how it was done at whatever academy you have been to before.

Even with no fire experience and just a lowly EMT cert, I had 4 conditional job offers over a two-week period. My secret? . . . I learned how to take an interview.

Thanks Captain Bob!!!!!! Larry

The proof is in the badge.

You can find more on testing secrets in the Career Article section from the Jobs drop down menu just above this posting.

"Nothing counts 'til you have the badge . . . Nothing!"

Fire "Captain Bob" Author, Becoming A Firefighter and
Conquer Fire Department Oral Boards

www.eatstress.com

888-238-3959

[GeorgeWendtCFI]

College is more than jobs, promotions and credentials. College gives you a few things that are vital in life, no matter what your career path.

College provides a young person an opportunity to grow up and gain independence. The opportunity to get away form home, be forced to plan yor activities in a responsible fashion, independently manage your courseload and begin to act as an adult is given to you. For may kids, this is the first time away from home and the first time they get the opporunity see if they have what it takes tp function in the adult world.

College also expands the mind. It exposes you to diverse people and to diverse thought. It entices you to consider viewpoints and subject matter that you may not have been asked to consider before. It forces you to become a member of a community that is quite different than your old HS.

College is also not about learning facts. College teaches you more about theory and research and criticial thinking and where to go to find that information. Completion of a college degree is a very fulfilling chapter in a person's life.

College may also show you that you (gasp) may want to do something different than be a FF. That is why Cap'n Bobby tries so hard to dissuade you from going to college. Because he hasn't written a book yet about being a fire protection engineer or a loss control representative or an occupational/fire protection safety and health specialist or a Special Agent with BATFE-all of which require a college degree.

If you are a college age student and you have an inkling to go to college, disregard the archaic, nonsensical advice of Cap'n Bobby and go to college. You absolutely will not regret it. Skip college now just for the moronic purpose of "getting the badge" and you may regret it for the rest of your life.

[Resq14]

From my life experiences, I can tell you that GW has summed it up perfectly.

I started out wanting to be an anaesthesiologist. Haha, my how things changed!

Like he said, it's not just about the piece of paper. It's about learning from the entire experience.

[CaptBob]

George I agree with the all the benefits you mentioned and more about attending college. That’s why I started off my posting with, “First leave no doubt that I believe in education.” But, is what you say going to get this young lad the J-O-B before he runs out of time, money, hope, and putting other jobs and relationships on hold?

As Assistant Professor Michael J. Ward, MGA, MIFireE http://www.nvcc.edu/home/mward/ wrote above, “I run a fire science program with about 200 students. The majority of my students are already on-the-job and are taking classes to prepare for promotion to technician, Lieutenant or Captain.

On another posting a candidate wrote, “As many firefighters have told me when I have asked them the same thing if you put off school now once you get hired, its ALMOST IMPOSSIBLE to come back and finish . . .

Well, everyone seems to be an expert once they’re hired. I'll start with me. I did it.

And please don't tell Assistant Professor Michael J. Ward and those at the college and university level across the country, or the cities and agencies that are paying educational incentives this because they have numbers that show there is a healthy attendance in these courses.

“The world is moving so fast these days that the person who says it can’t be done is generally interrupted by the person doing it.”-- Harry Emerson Fosdick

I took advantage of the educational incentive program to obtain my degree and received an additional 5% pay in the process. I was paid to go school. This 5% was included in my retirement.

Life is full of priorities. If someone elects not to go to school once they get hired and go on different adventures and pursuits that's their choice.

This from another fire oral board rater officer:

. . .you can do what ever makes you happy. But what if you found out after you finished getting your four-year A/S or B/A that your dream department hired 20 people last year and they were on hard times and wouldn’t hire again until 2009?

This is not my first Rodeo. I incorporate my experience from a 28-year fire career, three successful start-up businesses, manager of a fortune 100 company, twenty-five years of research and a 40-year marriage (29 years that were good according to my wife).

By the way the only person that calls be bobby is my wife when she gets romantic.

You ask about writing books? Actually, I have written four books and have started the fifth, more than 80 articles and two Special Reports, Conquer the Psychological Interview and Conquer the Promotional Interview. Two of the books, Fire Up Your Communication Skills and Eat Stress For Breakfast, have been translated and available in 22 countries including South Korea, India, Russia, Latin America and China. I’ve completed over 300 media interviews, including the Barbara Walters Show, featured in USA Today and the Wall Street Journal.

With over 4100 postings, your articulate writing skills and expertise to be able to pound out the above piece on the benefits of college, why haven’t you written a book on any of the many topics you have strong opinions about? I’m sure you have at least written and published some articles?

It has been my passion for 30 years to assist candidates with information that will place them at the shortest distance between them and the infamous badge they are looking for. You can check out the success stories here: http://eatstress.com/New_Folder7/badgesnew.htm

George, you seem so passionate about this topic. Instead of putting this into another one of your cute creative spins, why don’t you just direct us to your previous postings where you helped motivate, encourage and directed candidates to resources that helped them achieve their badges.

We report, you decide.

The proof is in the badge.

You can find more on testing secrets in the Career Article section from the Jobs drop down menu just above this posting.

"Nothing counts 'til you have the badge . . . Nothing!"

Fire "Captain Bob" Author, Becoming A Firefighter and
Conquer Fire Department Oral Boards

www.eatstress.com

888-238-3959

[Poodle]

Rob,

Something else to consider here are the budget times we have now. While many departments are hiring now, that may stop. Lots of places, on the west coast, are laying off people and browning out stations. The reason the rest are hiring is because we have so many people leaving, do to enhanced retirement benefits, as well as the large number of people hire in the early to mid 70’s.

A lot of departments got huge incentives to hire guys coming back from Vietnam. That was 1970-75. They now have 30 years on, but were still too young to retire. With the 3%@ 50 benefit, they are leaving now. My department will loose up to 70 people by March of ’06. I don’t see us hiring many people after we fill those spots. Also the new retirement benefit makes it a better deal for the department to pay people overtime than to hire new people, because the costs they pay for us have gone up.

I went to high school with a guy named Rob; we were both going to be firefighters. He went to Chico state and got a four-year degree in five years, and then got his firefighter and EMT cert.s. I got hired in 1988, I had my EMT,FFI, three years as a reserve firefighter, and four years on an ambulance. He had his degree and his EMT, and was in FFI and could not take that test. He did very well on the next test, in the top 20. He never got a job. After they hired my class, my department did not hire one person for seven years. Let me tell you, that is a long time to be the new guy, but at least I had a job.

If you are planning on spending six or seven years to get: a four-year degree, FFI, EMT, and paramedics, that is great. Think about the order. If you get you fire stuff out of the way, you can work as a volunteer while you go through school. Work on an ambulance part time and during the summer. That way when you get you degree you can offer years of experience as a firefighter and EMT and also be ready to go right into medic school. Worst-case scenario, you get hired before you are through school. About 20% of my department has gotten their four-year degree while working here, and we have no educational incentive.

[MacInnis]

Please don't jump me too bad.

But I believe Capt Bob is missing the whole point about college. You say the truth is in getting the badge. True maybe a degree can't help you get on the department. But like some others have mentioned it is the fact that many departments are moving towards officers with degrees. So you hold off a few years and go to school. YOU volunteer for those 4 years or so and you use that time to build your skills. I know guys who started out in their degree wanting to be firefighters. Got on at a volunteer station and didn't like the job one bit. Used their degree to do other fire related jobs such as arson, and safety.
If you say getting your medic is more important, hey go get your 4 year degree in Paramedic Science. Wow you can get both at the same time. Its not the job entrance that matters is the fact of what someone wants to do in their life. Thats why I said there is a difference between Fire Science and Fire and Safety, etc.

Everytime this topic comes up you show stories about guys getting THE BADGE with out degrees. Well like most stuff you can show and prove to anyone what you want. Lets see the stories of guys you got promoted faster, or was able to use their degree to advance themselves in the fire service. You can't just look at were you are going to be tom, you need to look at were you want to be in a year.

I started on a volunteer department 10 years ago. Spent two years there and when i finished High school decided I wanted a college degree. Found a good school for Fire and Safety Engineering Technology. Now becuase departments are not highing much right now I am not flipping burgers at a local food place. I am a Safety Coordinator postion with a very large international company. I got something going on. If I get on the engine tom and hurt myself at least I have something I enjoy to fall back on.

[engine1321]

George, something you and I finally agree on!

What's the point of getting a badge if you can't advance because your department requires an advanced degree to promote? I know that I certainly don't want to be stuck at line firefighter my whole life.

Bob, there are plenty of opportunities to gain firefighter and EMT-B training while attending a four year university. I earned my EMT-B and Firefighter I and soon Firefighter II here at OSU. I'm even considering starting my Paramedic while here too. Consider that arguement void. I even have a badge too, a shiny silver one that says "Firefighter" on it. It sits on my uniform at home, ready to be worn again when I get there.

Myths, Bob, myths.

[MikeWard]

In my preferred world, a high school graduate will attend college and obtain an undergraduate bachelor’s degree PRIOR to getting a “real” job. GeorgeWendtCFI illustrates the values of going to college and getting to experiment and become an adult in a semi-protective environment.

My teaching experience goes from high school vocational EMT (three years) to community college (20 years) through university (four years). My personal educational journey includes flunking out of engineering school, while living in a fire station and spending my parent’s money. I returned to obtain a bachelor and master degree years later.

Firefighting is one of the few middle-class jobs not requiring college education as a pre-employment requirement. I think that distinction will evaporate in the next generation.

THE BRUTALITY OF THE HIRING PROCESS

Fire departments continue to hire as if it was 1899 – you are a slab of meat evaluated for your physical, mental and moral capabilities. The regional or local fire academy will provide the needed on-the-job training. Most of them do not care about your volunteer experience or existing fire service certifications. But many will treat you preferentially if you are a National Registry EMT/Paramedic.

You may have forgotten what it is like to be on the outside with a burning desire to be a full-time firefighter. That desire results in an endless “what-if” game that reminds me of high school dating.

I do not completely agree with Captain Bob’s approach, but his focus on only doing things to get the BADGE is like the suggestions I provide to younger wanna-be’s.

There may be another reason why an 18 year old wants to go to work right away. Many graduates of American high schools lack the reading, mathematic or study skills to start freshman college.

In the 1990’s the largest growth in Virginia undergraduate programs was the preparatory classes to raise incoming freshman skill sets in writing (English 001) and math (Math 003).

MORE RECRUITS START THE JOB IN 2005 WITH COLLEGE EXPERIENCE

My experience in the metro Washington DC area shows that the percentage of recruit firefighter candidates with college education is continuing to rise. From my Spring 2005 FIR program evaluation report:

Newer firefighters are starting the job better educated. About 75% of new recruits will have 15 or more semester hours PRIOR to employment. Of that group, about half already have a bachelor degree. A few have graduate or professional degrees.

Just like preparing for the Candidate Physical Aptitude Test, I believe that a career firefighter candidate will need to have a college education to succeed once off probation.

IT IS EASIER GOING TO COLLEGE AT 19 THAN 29

It is a no-brainer to appreciate that a single 19 year old living in a dorm will have an easier time completing college than a married 29 year old parent working as a firefighter.

COLLEGE EDUCATED FIREFIGHTERS DO MUCH BETTER ON PROMOTIONAL EXAMS

In a 1984 survey, 85% of the northern Virginia firefighters who scored high on the Sergeant, Lieutenant, Captain or Battalion Chief promotional exam had taken at least 15 semester hours of college. I work with a career development coordinator for a large suburban fire department – that statistic remains valid in 2004.

THE BRUTALITY OF RETIREMENT

Many of the firefighters that started the job in the 1970’s are retiring. Most of them took a couple of fire science courses in preparing for promotional exams. They are discovering that they cannot use their valuable emergency service experience in their second career because they HAVE NO COLLEGE DEGREE.

Over a third of the community college students I work with are the 40 to 50 somethings that are suddenly trying to cram credits so that they can qualify for federal homeland security jobs, positions as federal arson investigators or other real world jobs that require a bachelor degree as a pre-entry requirement.

It is not pretty - they have the skills and experience but without a degree they never get past the application process.

THE REALITY OF 21ST CENTURY FIRE SERVICE PROMOTIONS
Right behind them are the 30 to 40 somethings that have to deal with a “sudden” change in department policy. They now need 30 semester hours of college credit to take the next Captain exam, or the new fire chief is passing over promotion candidates that do not have a degree. Some departments are requiring a two-year degree for first line supervisor and a bachelor degree for battalion chief and higher.

MY OPINION:
If you can, go to college and get a bachelor degree. Have fun, try out new things, see the world. Get your degree in whatever interests you, since 80% of your fellow graduates end up in jobs different than what their degree says.

After you get your badge and get off probation, you can take whatever fire science, emergency management, WMD, ICS, or XYZ classes required by your department. Generally, they will pay for those classes.

Mike

[CaptBob]

Why "Nothing counts 'til you have the badge . . . Nothing!"

Certainly there are other things in life that are far more important than a badge. Family, health, friends, happiness and all those areas that have been covered here and more.

The reason I use this slogan is because I often hear candidates who don't have a badge us these excuses. I have education, experience, training, been a volunteer, bunked, and have a burning desire to get this job. Got degrees, certificates, have every merit badge you could think of, yada, yada, yada. If it’s your real desire to become a firefighter, none of this is going to matter if you don't get a badge. You will still be the bridesmaid.

I get calls from candidates all the time telling me about all their wonderful credentials. They have been testing 3, 5 or 7 years, have been number 30 on this list, 22 on that list, volunteer firefighter, AA in Fire Technology, BA degrees some medics and every certificate and merit badge you could imagine. I have to stop them before they get into warp speed with all their stuff. I do this with one simple statement: Do you have a badge? They go off again with more of their great stuff. I bring them back with: But, you do not have a badge? You are the bridesmaid. Never the bride. They may have great credentials but can't present the package at the interview. And if you can’t present the package, no matter what your credentilas, you will never, ever see a badge . . . Period!

Many write e-mails like this: I know I have what it takes to make it as a full-timer.

My reply: Yeah, they all say that. You know that. But you have to convince the oral board panel that you really do.

SLAN wrote:
“However, Captain Bob can "teach" people how to pass these interviews, and thus get a job, even though they really don't fit it.”

Firebird wrote:
“He did not tell me how to answer the questions from the board, he helped show me how my own personal life experiences related to the fire service and why my experiences were relevant.”

People that are critical of our program usually don’t have a clue what we do. We try to shorten the learning curve to the closest point between candidate and the badge. Like the Tin Man in the Wizard of Oz, we’re not going to give you anything you don’t already have. We’re just going to show you where it is.

We don’t try to place a candidate in a profile. We encourage candidates to lace their answers with personal life experiences. Since no one else can tell a candidate’s life experience stories they can’t be placed in the mold of a profile. They become unique, fresh and convincing. In a recent fire academy half the recruits were our candidates. You couldn’t tell one from the other in the oral board because they were using their own stuff. Not a profile clone of everyone else.

Why is it that candidates will pay big money for college programs, certification classes, EMT programs, books, fire academies, paramedic programs, put their life, relations and other careers on hold for a fire career? Then, there seems to be something sinister or wrong for someone to provide products with a proven track record for the part of the hiring process that is 100% of your score to get hired. The oral board.

This is a life long passion to help candidates achieve their goal as a firefighter and gain that (yes) badge. No, it’s not about the money. With long-term investments in rental real estate, retirement system and deferred compensation we are set for life.

We’ve been available for years to answer the large volume of phone calls and e-mails at no cost. Free college programs. Free articles. A web site with over 200 pages of Free "Inside Secrets How to Get a Badge", a weekly Free drawing for products that would improve you chances in getting a badge. A Free email newsletter.

I work with candidates all the time like the following that never spent a dime on our programs. They utilized the FREE information off our web site, have phone calls and e-mail messages answered in helping them pursuit their badge:

Today I'm writing with a sigh of relief. I have been offered a position with a dept. in Oregon. I want to thank everyone for the help and encouragement down the long path. I want to say a special thank you to Capt. Bob, for without his words of wisdom, I don't think I would be writing this letter. He took me under his wing and guided me through the dark waters of the orals and phych.

This guy is for real, and for everyone who is unsure he never once made me feel like he was lobbying for my money. He just wanted me to succeed. There are some people out there who bash Capt. Bob and to those people I would like to say if you spent just fifteen minutes talking with him, or going through his web site you would quickly become a believer. Again, thank you everyone and good luck to you all! Josh

Yes, we have products. We don’t hold a gun to any ones head to buy them. Do any of the classes or programs offer a refund if you’re not satisfied? Nope. We do. We offer a no questions asked full refund if someone is not satisfied with our products. We will refund their money and misery. No one has ever lost a penny with our products. They are at no risk except they might get a badge.

It's a great feeling if you can be a part of the change in someone's life. Multiply that by over 2,246 candidates and counting that have received their badges through our program. Thousands more have been hired by using the free information on our web site and having their questions answered by phone or e-mail. I hope you will understand this is my reward. I have a great passion in seeing candidates get a badge. This is serious work.

Here's Dan's testimony:

Subject: I Got The Call!!

Well after five years and 24 tests I finally got the call I have been waiting for. I got the job of my dreams. I can not even begin to express what this is like. I can finally move on with my life.

For the last 5 to 6 years every bit of my time outside of work has been consumed with trying to get this job. I have missed family events and weddings to go take test. I quit a good paying job to take one that paid about half as much, so I could have more time to go school and to test. I have charged up my credit cards to travel around and take every test I could. I have broken plans so many times with my girlfriend, it is amazing she still with me. It has not been easy by any means.

I have gotten a lot of help and support from family and friends and for that I am so thankful. But their is one person I can not even begin to thank, and that person is Capt. Bob. With out his help I would not be writing this long e-mail. Capt Bob shows you the tools to make your dream come true. He is willing to help you with any stage of the testing process.

For me the biggest help was the private coaching for the oral board. What a difference it made. Getting the job is a game and Capt. Bob helps you to learn how to play the game! For those of you who are critical of Capt. Bob, Know this. I would not have this job with out the help of Capt. Bob.

MY only regret is that I did not call him sooner! So if you feel stuck and that you may never get this job, check out his web site. See what he is all about. It's not about the money. The little bit of money I spent was so worth it. What do you have to lose?

Thanks Capt. Bob and thanks to your son Rob as well. I am forever grateful to you both.
"Dan"

Remember: "Nothing counts 'til you have the badge . . . Nothing!" Ask Dan

If that isn't enough to dispel the myth, there are 55 more pages of success stories. I encourage you Look at the results other people just like you have gotten by using our formula. They simply got positive results by putting simple techniques into action. You can review what they had to say here: http://eatstress.com/New_Folder7/badgesnew.htm

You can find more on testing secrets in the Career Article section from the Jobs drop down menu just above this posting.

Fire "Captain Bob" Author, Becoming A Firefighter and
Conquer Fire Department Oral Boards

www.eatstress.com

888-238-3959

[Poodle]

Why can’t everybody be right?

I don’t think it would be a mistake to get a degree, and I don’t think it would be a mistake to get hired and then work on completing it afterward.

I know people who got hired and worked hard for a long time to finish a degree; a lot of them are the people who are saying you should get it before you get hired. They learned from experience. I know people I work with that wish they had gotten hired four years earlier so they could retire sooner. Life is full of choices.

Why don’t we give our opinions and let the kid who asked the question a chance to decide. Instead we argue about what it means to be accredited, Cut and paste other peoples posts to prove something, George calls Capt Bob- Bobby, and Billy dipped Peggy-Sue’s pigtails in the ink well.

Lets give adult advice to those who ask, and the rest can go blow it out their Breathalyzer. Before you post, why not look back to the original question and frame your response around that, or start a new thread where you can argue.

[CaptBob]

MacInnis wrote:

Every time this topic comes up you show stories about guys getting THE BADGE with out degrees. Well like most stuff you can show and prove to anyone what you want. Lets see the stories of guys you got promoted faster, or was able to use their degree to advance themselves in the fire service. You can't just look at were you are going to be tom, you need to look at were you want to be in a year.

OK, deal!

Once you’re hired it will be some time before you can even take a promotional test (not just in one year). Maybe 3 years for
engineer. Probably more like 5 years or more to be even considered for any promotion. If you can’t put together a plan, like you did to get hired, to be ready in advance of a promotion test others get ahead of you.

I knew six years from the first year I was hired there were going to be 27 officers and engineers who could retire, not including medical retirements. I set out a plan to complete my degree (on their dime), experience and have officer certifications in place before that year. Even though the tests had not been announced, I was studying and practicing up to four hours almost every day at the beginning of that magical year. In February, they announced the engineers test two months out. Just before the engineers test they announced the Captains test two months out.

I placed number 2 on the engineers test and was promoted to operator engineer 30 days later. Since my testing skill set was up to speed and I had perfected my assessment oral board presentation skills I came out number two on the captains test, beating out many angry senior members who just didn’t prepare. Six weeks later I was riding in the right seat with a new captains badge.

The real secret in getting hired and promoted is gaining the necessary oral board presentation skills to place your self high enough on the list to get a shot at the badge. Much of this skill set works for entry level and promotions too.

If you have all the education, experience and the burning desire to get that badge, you’re not getting hired, having to cool your heels in another position waiting for that next opportunity (not a bad ideal), you have be asking yourself why? You can talk all you want about what we do here, how you want it or think it should be, but the candidates you are reading about in my postings are a lot like you. The big difference is they figured out how to maximize the points in their oral boards, are now riding big red and are taking home a pay check.

Here’s how they did it. Since oral board scores are calculated in hundredths of points (82.15, 87.63, 90.87, etc), the goal is to keep building on a few hundredths of points here on this question, a few hundredths there on that answer, gaining a few more hundredths with their signature personalized life experience stories at the appropriate time, delivering the all powerful “Nugget” answers that no one else can tell, and pulling away from the parrot salvo dropping clones.

Before the clone candidates realize what has happened, these candidates have added on extra points to their score placing them in a position to be invited to the chiefs interview where they get a real shot at the badge. Just being 1 to 2 points out of the running can decide whether you will go forward in the hiring process or not.

MacInnis requested: Lets see the stories of guys you got promoted faster, or was able to use their degree to advance themselves in the fire service.

Here tis:

Captain Bob: About 6 1/2 years ago, I called you and ordered your package for entry-level firefighters. I was happy to report that the information in your program was invaluable! Out of close to 3,000 people who tested, I was hired in the first class of 30!!!
Two months ago, I was eligible to take a promotional exam for the rank of Fire Captain. I remembered how much your entry-level program helped me, so I ordered your promotional program. Once again, I am extremely happy to report that you have another success story. Out of 181 candidates who took the written test, 70 moved on to the assessment center. I was one of the 70. My final ranking in this testing process is 14!! The department is due to promote 22 in the next 30 days. Your program advice on the employee conflict, in-basket, and fire scenario were extremely helpful. I am once again recommending your program to everyone I know. Thanks again. Sincerely, Jon Dorman DeKalb County, GA

Captain Bob, Just writing to let you know the results of our promotional process. I need to start out by saying that my interviewing skills have always been my downfall. I went from a number four spot after my written and physical in my first entry level hiring process to a number nine spot from a poor interview. Fortunately I did get hired that time around. Since that process I have participated in two other hiring processes being knocked out both times at the interview portion.

I always knew what I wanted to say but could never make the words come out together the right way. I tried to clone to many answers without show casing the real me. When the opportunity came to try for a Lieutenant promotion I knew I had to do something to turn the tables. I found your tapes while doing a google search for fire department promotion help.

After reading your site I was sold on the program. I scored first on the written test, but was still apprehensive about the interview and assessment center. When I called I felt like you took a genuine interest in my situation and valued your suggestion of a personal coaching session. This step is what turned the table.

The experience I gained from the more than two hours you dedicated to helping me is unfathomable. I learned how to compose my answers in a sure fire way to draw and hold the attention of the board. Learning how to use my "nuggets" and draw on past experience was amazing.

For anyone reading this when Captain Bob says you can feel the switch flip on in the back of your head and feel yourself "in the zone" you can believe it is true! I would recommend the programs to anyone who asks it is an invaluable tool for any interview you may face. Oh yeah and by the way I finished number #1 my first time out in the promotion process. Beating out our department "interviewing master" Thanks Captain Bob!
New Lieutenant
Billy MacLeod
Franklin Twp Fire Dep

Greetings Captain Bob!
It was my second crack at the Captains promotional and I didn't want to leave any rocks unturned. I had heard about "Captain Bob" in a class I took in San Francisco and thought it was definitely worth a try. I called Captain Bob and got started by ordering his audio and video tape "Promotional Program".

Almost immediately I felt his enthusiasm and support, I felt my motivation increasing as we spoke on the phone. We got started by cleaning up my resume and making it more readable, what a difference when we were done! The oral board complimented me on submitting just a one page resume.

After receiving my package in the mail I got to work with my tape recorder, it felt a little strange in the beginning but I was going to conquer anything that got in my way of that Captains badge. I especially liked the CD and would listen to it every time I drove in the car. I found that the tape would put me in a frame of mind that would have "my nuggets" popping in to my head.

The time passed quickly and the day of the written exam had arrived, this was just the warm up. I was prepared and passed it in the high 80's.

Next came the oral exam, this is where you can separate the men from the boys and or the women from the girls. I couldn't believe how well my interview went, I was answering the questions and adding my own signature stories when appropriate.

The interview panel was looking at me like I had invented electricity, I could tell that no one else had answered this way. I had the number one score in that portion of the exam. While waiting for the assessment, which was to be six weeks later I took a neighboring cities Captain exam. Why not, I had the golden ticket to communicating.

After the assessment center was over I was invited to a Chief's interview and I didn't hesitate to call Captain Bob for more help. Captain Bob reminded me of my strengths and gave me a couple additional nuggets that would let them know I was the one for this job.

After the final Chiefs interview was given the Chief called me and informed me that I had finished #1 and that he wanted me to be one of his new Captains, I couldn't believe my ears, I was going to be a Captain. What was most interesting was the number #2 candidate was the "Oral Board Guru" who teaches interview skills at the community college.

I love my new job. I have been placed in the training division and am planning an in-house academy in April. I am also on several committee's and task forces that meet on a regular basis. The thing I like the most is that now I am in a position to get things accomplished, no more complaining about the bosses now I am one.
Captain Bob was there for me from the beginning. I did the work and he gave me the support I needed. Thanks Captain Bob!!!!! Your friend, Chris

I recently tested for LT. and Captain. After using your program I am
now #1 on the Lt. list and #2 on the Captains. Prior to your program I was #8 on the Captains and did not make the LT. Thanks.

Another milestone:

Captain Bob, thanks for your help. You gave me an oral coaching session over the summer. I doubled my competitions score and topped the oral board/assessment center. I got the Captain’s badge last week. So far you helped 3 guys from our department and your system worked for all 3 of us. 1 top score, 1 captains badge, and 1 chiefs badge. Thanks again. John

Subject: Promotional Exam

Captain Bob, the journey is done, and with success. After all the protests have been review and six weeks have past, the test results are finally official. Of the 40 candidates that took the written portion of the test, only 20 proceeded to the assessment center. Of those only 14 passed the promotional process.

I am happy to say that my performance in the assessment center put me in the number 2 position in the overall ranking. I am currently filling a long-term captains position.

Bob, the true formula to success of any promotional exam is time, dedication and tutoring. It takes dedication of your family, friends and company. You can't get through it without their help. And without seeking the proper tutoring "the cream will not rise to the top".

This is where I would like to thank you for your help. The "nuggets" you provided greatly assisted me with my success. Running with the pack is not good enough anymore. This reminds me of a saying I once heard, "Life is like a dog sled team, if your not the lead dog the view never changes."

The view is changing for me, during the life of this promotional list our department will open a new station, and with the retirements expected the captains promotions should exceed 8 positions.

Again, thank you, without your help the results would not have been quite the same. If I can be of any assistance to you or your students please do not hesitate to let me know.
Jeff Breasher, Engineer, (A/Capt. Sta. 39B) San Ramon Valley Fire District

This just in:

I wanted to tell you that I attended a workshop last Tuesday put on by our Fire Chief's Assn. (They also do a majority of Promotional Testing assessment and interviews) They charge $85each for an 8 hour class on a variety of topics--like assessment centers, in-basket, oral interviews. I found out about it after my coaching session with you on Monday so I figured it couldn't hurt. Everything you said was RIGHT ON THE MONEY!!! The afternoon session was a mock interview where actual Chiefs asked the questions. My first question was "Why do you think you are a better candidate than the rest" It was SHOWTIME! Some guys that were watching actually clapped, and a LT sitting next to me said, "I'd promote you today!" The point is all of this stuff is starting to make a little bit of sense and I could not have done it without you--so, THANKS AGAIN! I also told everyone in the class about your website.

So, Thanks again--and if you have any advice about the closing statement or advice about my weakness answer--I'd really appreciate it!

Thanks again!--Jeff J

Well, Low and behold this follow up just arrived from Jeff after his first promotional up against 19 other candidates:
So, it went something like this....

Monday was the Oral Exam--the part I was dreading. It was 5 questions in a group interview format and I thought I did pretty well. The results were posted on Tuesday and I scored a 12.76 out of 15--not bad considering the top score was 13.20. I remained at the top of the list from the previously scored professional achievement points, seniority, and department evaluations. I felt confident that I had done the best I could have in the interview. I was A LOT more prepared than I would have been had I not used your program.

Now, I'm not from some big city department--my town has 40 full time firefighters. And, $$$$ bucks is some big money--but, it was worth every penny! It gave me the confidence and encouragement to do the best job I could! THANK YOU!

Today was the written exam--worth 40%. I scored in the top 3 and remained at the top of the list. I should get my (LT) badge in January.

I read all of the other candidates emails on your site and I thought that maybe your program works for them---on BIG departments---but it might not work for me. I could not have been more wrong! Your entire program from the video to the tape to the handouts worked like a charm. And the private coaching was awesome. I'll tell you what really sold me---when took the time to call me on the phone and answered every one of my questions. That really meant a lot!
So, if you have anyone that is skeptical, send 'em my way. If you're ever in Chicago, let me know, I'll buy you dinner. AND THANKS A MILLION!

And you were right---THERE'S NO BETTER FEELING IN THE WORLD!
Be safe!--Firefghter Jeff Janus

It happened! The 2100 badge in our program. It just happened to be a candidate we helped get a firefighter job and now his first captains badge.

Here's how:
“Getting the job is like winning the lottery” We’ve all seen the California Lottery commercial telling us “You have to play to win”. Capt. Bob will teach you to play.

As a student firefighter I use to avoid Capt. Bob when he was on duty. As I would pass he would always ask me one of the dreaded interview questions, which I didn’t have any clue how to answer. He would then ask me how I was preparing for the “process”. I would tell him anything to save myself the humiliation of not having a clue.

Capt. Bob knew that I had the training, education, and experience to get the job. He also knew that I had the answer to all those questions I avoided. I just needed a script to present my package. Capt. Bob offered personnel coaching repeatedly. I finally broke down and accepted the fact that someone could help me.

Two weeks after the coaching session, I had two interviews on the same day. Both cities offered me a badge…Capt. Bob was at the ceremony were my wife pinned my badge; It was a very proud moment.
I have been with my department for almost eight years. I gave Capt. Bob a call to let him know that I would be taking the Captains Test and again he offered coaching. I did not hesitate taking him up on this most recent offer.

I have been to the other promotional workshops out there. They will teach you what an Assessment Center is, but not how to master it.
I reviewed my Assessment Center scores with the Personnel Director; She could not believe this was my first time to take the test. I missed being number 1 on the Captains list by 1/8 of a point. Had I handled my role-play exercise as Capt. Bob advised me, I could have been number 1 by a several points. Most importantly, I have recently been appointed to Captain.

The Promotional Program, coaching and inside secrets for the chief’s interview placed me in #2 position. Everything happened the way he said it would. Everything. Even nailing my badge the first time out.

Capt. Bob tells me this is badge #2100. This number would be much higher if he counted all the badges his students have been offered, not just the badges they are wearing.

You don’t know what you don’t know. Capt. Bob will teach you to play. Thank you Captain Bob., Jarrett Anderson CAPTAIN!!!!

Follow up:
Captain Bob, It's funny your e-mail came today, this morning at a mutual aid drill I was approached by a BC from another Dept. He was a rater on my assessment center fire simulation. He congratulated me on my new position and stated that my simulation was one of the best he had ever seen. He stressed ever, and he is not a young guy. He continued with how imprested he was with my "command presence". Thank you again for the great coaching. By the way, the job has exceeded every expectation and more.

My driver has been a medic in the department for 22 years, and my tailboard is about to make permanent status. I have a great crew. Thanks, Captain Jarrett Anderson

Captain Bob,
I had to write to thank you for making your program available. Over a year ago I ordered your promotion program to see if it could help me fine tune my assessment skills. The department that I work at was months away from having one of three Battalion Chiefs retire. At the time I had been in the fire service 14 years and had successfully passed the assessments for promotions to my then current level of Captain. I had been working to graduate from college with a fire science degree in order to meet the education qualifications for the position. I already meet the requirements of time in grade as a Captain. The other candidates that I would have to go against for
the position had 19, 25, and 27 years on the job and had extensive
experience as acting Battalion Chiefs.

I followed what you said by buying a tape recorder and practicing my part. I knew that I had to set the mark after drawing numbers and being selected to go first in front of the interviewing panel. I walked in totally prepared for anything that I could imagine that could come up. I even had a bucket full of "nuggets". I handed out notebooks to each panel member that I had prepared in order to show them the different things that I had done as a supervisor that made me ready to take on the roll of Battalion Chief. I walked in with facts and figures ("nuggets") not dreams and ideas. You were
right, they all stopped and watched as I performed. It was hard to keep from cracking up. I left knowing that those that followed me were in trouble.

To make this story short, I came in NUMBER ONE. Your program gave me the edge that I needed. THANKS and keep up the excellent work.

Battalion Chief David Eddins
Albany Fire Department
Albany, Georgia

PS: If anybody passes up on buying your program they are CRAZY!!!

Paul was going for a captain’s position for LA City. He faxed me his proposed script for his presentation. Buried in the third page was his true strength . . . Training! Paul had a long history training in his department, sheriff’s department, and county swift water rescue. Once training was moved to his opening and main theme, he was operating from his strength.

Paul's was going for his first Captain's test. He tested with 500 other candidates at LA City. He was fighting seniority credits and experience. All he was hoping to do was get on the list and get some acting time.

In his second interview, a panel member from training asked him what part training would play as an officer? Paul asked to use the white board to demonstrate. It was show time! It was Paul’s true love and strength. He was in his element up at the board asking more questions and demonstrating he was an experienced trainer. The training chief beamed. Paul’s confidence exploded. How could they not consider him for the position? He blew the doors off his oral board panel.

He didn't just make the list. He ended up number six out of five hundred his first time out. A month later he was one of the first 20 badges hired off that list.

How about a new fire chief:

Bob & Rob,
Been reading your stuff for years, apparently it worked. The city didn't even interview anybody else. Keep pushing people to be where they need to be.

Here's the press announcement: http://www.wekz.com/home/news.cfm?date=1/25/2005

You guys are the real deal. I couldn't believe you took the time to call and congratulate me. This department really is the climax of my career. Not a busy dept by any means, but just what I was looking for to finish my career. We are a small P-O-C department with 4 engines, and a truck, 52 members and only about 200 calls a year. It is the greatest place in the world to be Chief. We work on a first name basis, and have a true two way dialogue about department issues. This is my third department, and it feels like this is where I "grew up". Not many people are lucky enough to have the opportunity to lead two departments and make a difference. All of this is because of the nuggets I picked up from you. Hey, guys THIS WORKS FOR PROMOTION TOO! I would, and will wholeheartedly recommend your program to anyone who is looking to advance to the upper echelon's of management.

Thanks again, and you will always be welcome at our house!

Daryl A. Rausch, Fire Chief
Monroe Fire Department 1110 Eighteenth Avenue Monroe, WI
608-329-2575 drausch@cityofmonroe.org

More success stories here: http://eatstress.com/promobadges.htm

You can find more on testing secrets in the Career Article section from the Jobs drop down menu just above this posting.

"Nothing counts 'til you have the badge . . . Nothing!"

Fire "Captain Bob" Author, Becoming A Firefighter and
Conquer Fire Department Oral Boards

www.eatstress.com

888-238-3959

[CaptBob]

Just to keep fresh and current, this came in at 1:39 pm Sunday:

I got the call!! Wow! What an awesome feeling.

I am very proud to say that I will be starting the Tower with Tacoma Fire Department on March 14. My home town!! I could not be more excited!!

I sincerely appreciate this forum and the members who care enough to post their thoughts, advice and experiences. I am fairly new to the "fire service career search",about 2 years, and I feel very fortunate that I was hired so early in my journey. I understand that many people spend many years trying to achieve this goal, and I sincerely admire them for not giving up. Well the journey is not over. I still have a lot of hard work ahead of me.

Capt. Bob and Rob. I would not have gotten to this point without the info you provide...Most of it free I might add... A very simple approach that truly shortened my path to getting hired. Thank you!

Brink

Na, it can't be done.

Reply:

Bravo! Congrats on the success in gaining your badge! Thank you for sharing your journey and letting us be part of your pursuit. We here by bestow upon you our badge number 2,248 in our program. You have proved once again that there is an easier way.

Everyone reading this knows how difficult the hiring process is with Tacoma. You we meet more candidates who went through our program when you start the academy (16 starting) and many of our alumni who are already on line like this one http://eatstress.com/treadwater.htm

You have a great career ahead of you.

To help you get started in the academy and as a new rookie here are a couple of Secrets to read:

http://www.eatstress.com/academy.htm

http://www.eatstress.com/new.htm

You can find more on testing secrets in the Career Article section from the Jobs drop down menu just above this posting.

Fire "Captain Bob" Author, Becoming A Firefighter and
Conquer Fire Department Oral Boards

www.eatstress.com

888-238-3959

[ccfdblehman]

I am not entering into all of this bickering. I am a senior at EKU and am pursuing a F&SET degree, option of industrial safety and risk management. I was a Fir, Arson, Explosion major until last semester. I reccomend that you pursue something on the Fire & Safety Engineering Technologht side of the house, or whatever it is called elsewhere, I can no longer recall. I feel that the bebefits of this degree are netter then the fire science degree.


That's my thoughts. Good Luck cutting through all the crap in this thread robby.

[MacInnis]

First of all.. Not every post has to be a commercial for your program. Secondly you are saying that becuase I decided to focus on my degree now, instead of waiting until I HAVE THE BADGE is wrong. Well its my choice.

This topic started about from a guy asking a simple question. Several us provided him with links to several universities with a Fire Science, Fire Protection or Fire and Safety Degree. There more to learn at college then just getting the badge. No one has agrued with you on the fact that it normally doesn't help get the job. But there are other things you can gain from going to school.

Its just seems to me that you are Anti-College, becuase no matter what the question is regarding going to college. You always pop up with it doesn't matter if you don't have The Badge. It like I also am involved in Civil War Reenacting. And there is a guy that shows up to my view of the hobby claiming he can make you more authentic with thses simple little tips, only x amount a month. Sorry but you can't learn everything in the same spot.

I am not saying your program doesn't have good results no. But to make a blanket statement thats yours is the only way to go is too broad. One last thing I asked for examples of firefighters advancing faster then others with degrees. Not who got the new job becuase of your program.

[CaptBob]

Secondly you are saying that becuase I decided to focus on my degree now, instead of waiting until I HAVE THE BADGE is wrong. Well its my choice. . . Its just seems to me that you are Anti-College, becuase no matter what the question is regarding going to college.

Here's what I wrote in my first posting on this topic and have kept repeating:

First leave no doubt that I believe in education.

Everyone has an opinion, there are exceptions and more than one road to a badge and there are no guarantees in life which ever path you take.

You always pop up with it doesn't matter if you don't have The Badge.

You might have missed my posting above why I use this statement.

But to make a blanket statement thats yours is the only way to go is too broad.

Again, I wrote: Everyone has an opinion, there are exceptions and more than one road to a badge and there are no guarantees in life which ever path you take.

I always honor the path a candidate elects to pursuit and I honor yours. Many don't have the option to attend a pretigious university like you. I would be one of the first to congratulate you on gaining your badge as I have on the candidate above.

Captain Bob

www.eatstress.com

[engine1321]

Can we put a character limit on posts? It gets really boring flipping through 16 pages of one of Bob's posts.

[GeorgeWendtCFI]

But, is what you say going to get this young lad the J-O-B before he runs out of time, money, hope, and putting other jobs and relationships on hold?

That's how you characterize going to college? And you try to convince the most gullible among us that you "Support education"? You are an out and out phony, fake and fraud.

It has taken me some time to respond to this post because I am so outraged by this phony that I wanted to make sure that I didn't get myself kicked off of here.

Bobby, your condescending attitude also outrages me. You see, you don't know anything about me. I am also one of "those at the college and university level across the country". I am an adjunct professor in a fire science program at the community college level. It certainly is not as large as some of the top programs, but I am proud of what we do. I know all about what it means to have a degree. I am also an expert, from my personal experiences, on how hard it is to go back after you stop...regardless of who is paying for it. So spare me any future condescending lectures.

Every high school senior who has the brains, grades and ability should be counseled to go to college. Of course you can't make them go. But counseling along the lines of "Screw it! Work in that auto parts store until you have paid me enough money and you get "the badge". Then, if you feel like it, you can go to college off the government" is BS. Being pushed to do something you didn't think you could do is something that someone posing as a mentor should be doing.

But you see, you can't do that. It goes against the business plan. If you did that, you wouldn't sell as money books, tapes and videos. You might not get as many "motivational speaking" gigs.

Don't get me wrong. I do not begrudge you your business. But be a man and just come out and tell people what you are about. Don't hide behind this charade of "free advice". Its insulting.

BTW, while we are talking about being a man, are you ever going to man up and apologize for the absolutely ludicrous advice you gave to fire fighters that they should buy a breathalyzer to try to beat the system and not get a DUI?

Now a word to the people on the forums. I, for one, have had enough of Cap'n Bobby's commercials. I have reported his posts to the WT and have asked them to hold Cap'n Bobby to the same standard they demand from the rest of us. I would ask those of you who feel the same way to report these posts as well.

Secondly, if you have the grades, by all means, go to college. College and "the badge" are not mutually exclusive. Nobody ever said, "Damn, I wish I didn't get my degree". It also doesn't have to cost an arm and a leg. There is no shame in community college. In NJ, there is a program for HS seniors who graduate in the top 25% of their class. The program is simple. Tuition is zero dollars. Two years of college credit for nothing. You can then move on to a four-year university with two years of maturity, more money in your pocket and a clear picture of what you want to do with you life.

Lastly, do not blindly follow advice like Cap'n Bobby's without careful thought, critical evaluation and some deep introspection. In this particular case, Cap'n Bobby couldn't be more wrong.