Affirmative Action - Firehouse Forums

KIERIEKAT · 01-23-2003, 05:27 PM

HI,CAN ANYONE TELL ME HOW AFFIRMATIVE ACTION IS APPLIED
IN YOUR DEPT.?
ON WHAT BASES CAN THIS CANDIDATES BE PROMOTED?

protomkv · 01-23-2003, 06:09 PM

I would sincerely hope that affirmative action disappears, nobody should get employment or promotion based on their ethnicity, all job offers and promotions should be purely on the candidates own abilities. I dont care if you are black white, blue or green, male, female or hermophrodite. If you can do the job, I will assist you in anyway I canIn my view, affirmative action is in itself a form of discrimination, and there is no place in the FD for discrimination of any shape or form

KIERIEKAT · 01-23-2003, 06:24 PM

I AGREE WITH YOU,BUT AT THE MOMENT THIS IS A ONGOING
PROCESS IN THIS DEPT.
NOTHING WE CAN DO.

DaSharkie · 01-24-2003, 10:09 AM

I live in Massachusetts and many of the communities in teh state that use the state civil service list are under a federal consent decree taht mandates you hire x amount of minorities onto the department. It is a little confusing so let me explain it........

First off, a minority in this court decision is black or hispanic. Asians and women do not count as minorities - although exceptions can be made for both under special chapters of the Mass. General Laws.

Now, this court case goes back to the late 1970's. The judge ruled that each community had to hire x number of firefighters. The number of firefighters needed to be hired over time had to equal the percentage of minority representation in the community AT THE TIME OF THE LAWSUIT / COURT DECISION. So, of you hava city with 20 percent black and hispanic population you have to hire until 20 percent of your department is black or hispanic. When the state list comes out a minority will appear at set intervals in the list to ensure that you get the correct representation. For instance, the city of Boston has to hire 1 for 1, meaning one minority must be hired for every whtie recruit to the department, therefore the list is composed of one white applicant/one black applicant/ one white applicant...... Int the city of Leominster the list one minority in three. It differs for each community. The kicker of this is that the minority who is on the list can live out of the city and/or score LOWER on the exam than a white applicant who lives in teh city and be hired over them. This has happened many times in the past. There have been sveral challenges to this decision but all have failed and there are still several pending as well.

Now, personally the idea of Affirmative Action has been bastardized into a bad thing. The original premise behind AA was to increase minority numbers in a company or city employee roster by inreased recruiting and targeting to minority communities. The bleeding heart, flaming liberal types (I just have to rant every once in a while) have changed it become a defacto quota system thereby hiring less qualified or prepared applicants for a position simply because of their race.

I agree with the original plan for AA where you try to hire minorities, especially in a public safety environment in order to represent that community AND, more importantly, be better able to serve the population. I understand the things that happened in the past were horrible and wrong but they are in the past and cannot be changed no matter what is done or how hard it is tried.

GrovFire25 · 01-25-2003, 03:09 PM

Precisely why I'm moving out of Mass to look for a job.

KIERIEKAT · 01-25-2003, 08:19 PM

At the moment about 80%-90% of all the promotions are affirmative action,in our setup.This is forcing all the experienced personnel out and they are looking for other jobs.
The guys are leaving to go and work for the UN in Africa.
Leaving the AA in charge

Nodrog · 01-28-2003, 12:10 PM

I am researching for a management project I am doing and would like to know your views on what we call Diversity in the UK. Clearly you are much further down the road of trying to reflect the communtiies you serve in the make up of your departments. I wonder if there is any one fire department which claims to be the role model for all others to follow. Also can anyone enlighten me as to how a more diverse workforce can provide a better service to the public?

raven911 · 01-28-2003, 02:04 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Da Sharkie
...a minority in this court decision is black or hispanic. Asians and women do not count as minorities...

Being a Native American and member of the Choctaw Nation, this has always bothered me. Native Americans are one of the smallest and most under-represented minorities in this country, but are not included as minorities either. It does not seem like the EEO rules are applied fairly across the board. They are definitely slanted towards one or two particular groups. If they are going to use rules such as these, they should be applied equally for all. However, I wish they would just do away with them entirely. I don't care what race my fellow firefighters are as long as they can do the job (and do it well). If you can physically pass all of the tests and challenges to becoming a firefighter and do your rookie time, then you can work with me any day. I don't care if you are black, white, green, or gray.

protomkv · 01-28-2003, 07:28 PM

Raven,My sentiments exactly.
somebody hanging from a window with the flames licking round their backside, sure wont give a hoot what color you are, so why should we.

Muttly92094 · 01-29-2003, 02:51 PM

Well I heard today and this just a rumor. The FDNY is calling all the women and other minorities and giving them a prep course on the physical and a break on the cost at NY sports gym's. Now I have absolutly NO problem with women or other minorities in the fire service BUT I think that the rest of the people who took the test should get the same chances as the them. I am not trying to offend anyone and if I do so I appologize. Just giving my opinion..

raven911 · 01-29-2003, 03:06 PM

I have seen other large departments do this sort of thing. If this is true, they had better be careful that they aren't showing preferential treatment to a particular group. Someday someone will try to cash in with litigation if this is the case. It would probably cost everyone a bundle to get it straightened out.

I have also seen this done where it is offered as a development course open to all future candidates. This is the most equitable way to do it.

It would be interesting to hear to whole story on this. Rumors have a tendency to be incorrect.

Airborne · 01-29-2003, 03:14 PM

Fing Librals. I was Stationed in Mass when I was in the Military, I also got married and devorced there. One would think that since I'm from Minnesota I could handle the Libral View of that State. Forget it, there all nuts. My ex was making more money then I was but because I was a man, and in the military, I had to pay here Alamoney for 2 years.

But back to the topic at hand. AA and the NAACP I think that it then spelling have out lived there use, same with Title IX. Look we all can agree there was a time and a need for these things to correct the mistake of the Old Boys club of the White Man. But you know what, things have been taken to far if you ask me. Sure there are areas where there still can be improvment, but enough is enough. To mandate these things in this day and age is out dated at best, and reverese discrimination at worst.

These things should be handled on a case by case basis in the courts. There should be no room in the country for there to be any discrimination any where and where ever it is found it should be taken care off. But let's wake up and smell the coffe, we are not doing any body a favor by not selecting the most qualified for any job.

My God could imaging if I started WET channel, I would have the NAACP all over my ***, before the first minute of air time. Equality, I'm all for but this over the top owe us, poor us attitude does no one any good, because in the end it is the people that we are hired to serve that suffer no matter what proffession it is in.

Muttly92094 · 01-29-2003, 07:25 PM

Well I just confirmed a rumor I heard earlier. Women get a chance to go through a practice course to prepare you for the test that it provided by the FDNY, yet there is NO mention of the prep course for the men? See for yourself this was taken directly from the website:

WOMEN:

Congratulations on passing the Firefighter Written Examination # 2043.

The Fire Department and New York Sports Clubs are very proud of you for making the decision to become a New York City Firefighter. The Fire Department and New York Sports Clubs are dedicated to assisting you to prepare for the physical exam.

The Fire Department has arranged for you to receive a free 6-month off-peak membership to the New York Sports Clubs. This membership will allow you to use all programs and equipment at any location as well as a recommended training program to achieve your goals.

In addition to free access to the New York Sports Clubs facilities, the FDNY & NYSC have developed a special program for women to physically train you to prepare for the exam. This program is designed to train you to build strength and endurance. This 8-week training program will start in March. The training location will be held in the Wall St. NYSC on Wednesday & Thursday evenings & Sunday afternoons.

If you are interested in familiarizing yourself with an example of the tasks involved in the physical test for firefighter, you may register to participate in this un-timed familiarization program at the FDNY’s training facility for only $15!

In order to receive your 6 month off-peak membership to the New York Sports Clubs, register for the NYSC exclusive training program for women and to register for the FDNY’s familiarization course you must attend the orientation session scheduled on Tuesday, February 4th located at the FDNY headquarters in Brooklyn at 9 MetroTech Center in the Lobby Auditorium. You will receive a post card in the mail with the time of the orientation session to claim your free NYSC membership.

Now again im not against women in the fire service but why are they getting special treatment? Am I any different????

GrovFire25 · 02-04-2003, 02:24 PM

Quote:

Now again im not against women in the fire service but why are they getting special treatment? Am I any different????

Yeah, you got a penis!

Seriously though, this is absolute BS. This country and it's politically correct SOBs have got to be stopped.
I'm not against women in the fire service either..... IF they can prove they're better than anyone else they're testing against.

Muttly92094 · 02-05-2003, 10:15 PM

AMEN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

fyrman1977 · 02-06-2003, 09:18 AM

As far as I know, if you passed the FDNY test you got the postcard(letter) giving you the free 6-month membership. I got the postcard(I hope they didn't think I was a woman) a week ago.

Muttly92094 · 02-06-2003, 11:26 AM

Yes, this is true that everyone who passed got a card to go to metrotech and listen to what they have to say, BUT what you will NOT get is the pratice course for the physical, there are classes that have nothing directly to do with the FDNY that cost alot, the one the city is giving the women is FREE for them. Someone I know went on the 4th to the class and they told them that only 10% of the women who take the physical will pass it and that the test is unfair to women.. No offence if they cant past I dont want them backing me up on a line of doing a search. But they'll get there way like everything else....

fyrman1977 · 02-06-2003, 04:46 PM

Sounds to me that the extra help won't really help them anyway. I am also in agreement that if they can do the job, hire them. If not, I don't feel like risking my neck with anyone that can't drag my butt out!

01-23-2003, 05:27 PM	#1
KIERIEKAT Junior Member Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: SOUTH AFRICA Posts: 14	Affirmative Action HI,CAN ANYONE TELL ME HOW AFFIRMATIVE ACTION IS APPLIED IN YOUR DEPT.? ON WHAT BASES CAN THIS CANDIDATES BE PROMOTED?

01-23-2003, 06:24 PM	#3
KIERIEKAT Junior Member Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: SOUTH AFRICA Posts: 14	FEELING THE SAME I AGREE WITH YOU,BUT AT THE MOMENT THIS IS A ONGOING PROCESS IN THIS DEPT. NOTHING WE CAN DO.

01-24-2003, 10:09 AM	#4
DaSharkie Forum Member Join Date: Jun 2000 Posts: 4,335	I live in Massachusetts and many of the communities in teh state that use the state civil service list are under a federal consent decree taht mandates you hire x amount of minorities onto the department. It is a little confusing so let me explain it........ First off, a minority in this court decision is black or hispanic. Asians and women do not count as minorities - although exceptions can be made for both under special chapters of the Mass. General Laws. Now, this court case goes back to the late 1970's. The judge ruled that each community had to hire x number of firefighters. The number of firefighters needed to be hired over time had to equal the percentage of minority representation in the community AT THE TIME OF THE LAWSUIT / COURT DECISION. So, of you hava city with 20 percent black and hispanic population you have to hire until 20 percent of your department is black or hispanic. When the state list comes out a minority will appear at set intervals in the list to ensure that you get the correct representation. For instance, the city of Boston has to hire 1 for 1, meaning one minority must be hired for every whtie recruit to the department, therefore the list is composed of one white applicant/one black applicant/ one white applicant...... Int the city of Leominster the list one minority in three. It differs for each community. The kicker of this is that the minority who is on the list can live out of the city and/or score LOWER on the exam than a white applicant who lives in teh city and be hired over them. This has happened many times in the past. There have been sveral challenges to this decision but all have failed and there are still several pending as well. Now, personally the idea of Affirmative Action has been bastardized into a bad thing. The original premise behind AA was to increase minority numbers in a company or city employee roster by inreased recruiting and targeting to minority communities. The bleeding heart, flaming liberal types (I just have to rant every once in a while) have changed it become a defacto quota system thereby hiring less qualified or prepared applicants for a position simply because of their race. I agree with the original plan for AA where you try to hire minorities, especially in a public safety environment in order to represent that community AND, more importantly, be better able to serve the population. I understand the things that happened in the past were horrible and wrong but they are in the past and cannot be changed no matter what is done or how hard it is tried. __________________ Minister of bitterness and cynicism - I.A.C.O.J. - EMS division The borrower is slave to the lender. Proverbs 22:7 - No longer a slave 10/5/2009 "No man's life, liberty, or property are safe while the legislature is in session." - New York Judge Gideon Tucker "As Americans we must always remember that we all have a common enemy, an enemy that is dangerous, powerful and relentless. I refer, of course, to the federal government." - Dave Barry www.daveramsey.com www.clarkhoward.com www.cannondale.com www.heritage.org www.t4r.org

01-25-2003, 08:19 PM	#6
KIERIEKAT Junior Member Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: SOUTH AFRICA Posts: 14	No one in charge At the moment about 80%-90% of all the promotions are affirmative action,in our setup.This is forcing all the experienced personnel out and they are looking for other jobs. The guys are leaving to go and work for the UN in Africa. Leaving the AA in charge

01-29-2003, 03:06 PM	#11
raven911 Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Southern New Mexico Posts: 322	I have seen other large departments do this sort of thing. If this is true, they had better be careful that they aren't showing preferential treatment to a particular group. Someday someone will try to cash in with litigation if this is the case. It would probably cost everyone a bundle to get it straightened out. I have also seen this done where it is offered as a development course open to all future candidates. This is the most equitable way to do it. It would be interesting to hear to whole story on this. Rumors have a tendency to be incorrect. __________________ IACOJ Military Division NM Office ------------------------------------ "There are three kinds of men: The ones who learn by reading, the few who learn by observation, and the rest of them who have to pee on the electric fence for themselves."

01-23-2003, 06:09 PM	#2
protomkv MembersZone Subscriber Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Los Alamos, New Mexico, USA Posts: 402	I would sincerely hope that affirmative action disappears, nobody should get employment or promotion based on their ethnicity, all job offers and promotions should be purely on the candidates own abilities. I dont care if you are black white, blue or green, male, female or hermophrodite. If you can do the job, I will assist you in anyway I canIn my view, affirmative action is in itself a form of discrimination, and there is no place in the FD for discrimination of any shape or form

01-25-2003, 03:09 PM	#5
GrovFire25 Forum Member Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: New England Posts: 79	Precisely why I'm moving out of Mass to look for a job.

01-28-2003, 12:10 PM	#7
Nodrog Junior Member Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Norfolk,England Posts: 1	I am researching for a management project I am doing and would like to know your views on what we call Diversity in the UK. Clearly you are much further down the road of trying to reflect the communtiies you serve in the make up of your departments. I wonder if there is any one fire department which claims to be the role model for all others to follow. Also can anyone enlighten me as to how a more diverse workforce can provide a better service to the public?

01-28-2003, 07:28 PM	#9
protomkv MembersZone Subscriber Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Los Alamos, New Mexico, USA Posts: 402	Raven,My sentiments exactly. somebody hanging from a window with the flames licking round their backside, sure wont give a hoot what color you are, so why should we.

01-29-2003, 02:51 PM	#10
Muttly92094 MembersZone Subscriber Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Long Island Posts: 143	Well I heard today and this just a rumor. The FDNY is calling all the women and other minorities and giving them a prep course on the physical and a break on the cost at NY sports gym's. Now I have absolutly NO problem with women or other minorities in the fire service BUT I think that the rest of the people who took the test should get the same chances as the them. I am not trying to offend anyone and if I do so I appologize. Just giving my opinion..

01-29-2003, 03:14 PM	#12
Airborne MembersZone Subscriber Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Brooklyn Park, MN, USA Posts: 450	Fing Librals. I was Stationed in Mass when I was in the Military, I also got married and devorced there. One would think that since I'm from Minnesota I could handle the Libral View of that State. Forget it, there all nuts. My ex was making more money then I was but because I was a man, and in the military, I had to pay here Alamoney for 2 years. But back to the topic at hand. AA and the NAACP I think that it then spelling have out lived there use, same with Title IX. Look we all can agree there was a time and a need for these things to correct the mistake of the Old Boys club of the White Man. But you know what, things have been taken to far if you ask me. Sure there are areas where there still can be improvment, but enough is enough. To mandate these things in this day and age is out dated at best, and reverese discrimination at worst. These things should be handled on a case by case basis in the courts. There should be no room in the country for there to be any discrimination any where and where ever it is found it should be taken care off. But let's wake up and smell the coffe, we are not doing any body a favor by not selecting the most qualified for any job. My God could imaging if I started WET channel, I would have the NAACP all over my ***, before the first minute of air time. Equality, I'm all for but this over the top owe us, poor us attitude does no one any good, because in the end it is the people that we are hired to serve that suffer no matter what proffession it is in.

01-29-2003, 07:25 PM	#13
Muttly92094 MembersZone Subscriber Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Long Island Posts: 143	Well I just confirmed a rumor I heard earlier. Women get a chance to go through a practice course to prepare you for the test that it provided by the FDNY, yet there is NO mention of the prep course for the men? See for yourself this was taken directly from the website: WOMEN: Congratulations on passing the Firefighter Written Examination # 2043. The Fire Department and New York Sports Clubs are very proud of you for making the decision to become a New York City Firefighter. The Fire Department and New York Sports Clubs are dedicated to assisting you to prepare for the physical exam. The Fire Department has arranged for you to receive a free 6-month off-peak membership to the New York Sports Clubs. This membership will allow you to use all programs and equipment at any location as well as a recommended training program to achieve your goals. In addition to free access to the New York Sports Clubs facilities, the FDNY & NYSC have developed a special program for women to physically train you to prepare for the exam. This program is designed to train you to build strength and endurance. This 8-week training program will start in March. The training location will be held in the Wall St. NYSC on Wednesday & Thursday evenings & Sunday afternoons. If you are interested in familiarizing yourself with an example of the tasks involved in the physical test for firefighter, you may register to participate in this un-timed familiarization program at the FDNY’s training facility for only $15! In order to receive your 6 month off-peak membership to the New York Sports Clubs, register for the NYSC exclusive training program for women and to register for the FDNY’s familiarization course you must attend the orientation session scheduled on Tuesday, February 4th located at the FDNY headquarters in Brooklyn at 9 MetroTech Center in the Lobby Auditorium. You will receive a post card in the mail with the time of the orientation session to claim your free NYSC membership. Now again im not against women in the fire service but why are they getting special treatment? Am I any different????

02-05-2003, 10:15 PM	#15
Muttly92094 MembersZone Subscriber Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Long Island Posts: 143	AMEN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

02-06-2003, 09:18 AM	#16
fyrman1977 MembersZone Subscriber Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Mpls area Posts: 13	As far as I know, if you passed the FDNY test you got the postcard(letter) giving you the free 6-month membership. I got the postcard(I hope they didn't think I was a woman) a week ago.

02-06-2003, 11:26 AM	#17
Muttly92094 MembersZone Subscriber Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Long Island Posts: 143	Yes, this is true that everyone who passed got a card to go to metrotech and listen to what they have to say, BUT what you will NOT get is the pratice course for the physical, there are classes that have nothing directly to do with the FDNY that cost alot, the one the city is giving the women is FREE for them. Someone I know went on the 4th to the class and they told them that only 10% of the women who take the physical will pass it and that the test is unfair to women.. No offence if they cant past I dont want them backing me up on a line of doing a search. But they'll get there way like everything else....

02-06-2003, 04:46 PM	#18
fyrman1977 MembersZone Subscriber Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Mpls area Posts: 13	Sounds to me that the extra help won't really help them anyway. I am also in agreement that if they can do the job, hire them. If not, I don't feel like risking my neck with anyone that can't drag my butt out!

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