driving POV guidelines - Firehouse Forums

WTFDChief730 · 03-11-2004, 10:11 PM

Do any of your departments have written SOPs, SOGs or what ever you call them...procedures for driving your POV with lights and siren to the station. We dont on the WTFD, we just give them some basic verbal guidelines and I feel that is wrong. I personally dont use them on my POV and I have followed some of our members down the road to the station and would easily say they were drivin 60 mph plus down a 35 mph road. That ticks me off and I usually say something to them and give them a verbal warning, but its hard to back any possible further disipline without some guidlines to back me. Twice I was told the excuse "well nobody ever told me". I kind of take the blame for that in a way because I'm one of the department chiefs and I'm the one who can fix it. After reading all the horror stories about volunteers crashing their POV's on calls I need to do something. We have a ton of new young FF's who Im sure are very excited when a call comes in, and with their adrenalin Im sure they really dont realize their driving that fast.

Anyway, enough of my ramblin', if you guys have any formal written guideines on this matter, can you get me a copy.

Weruj1 · 03-11-2004, 11:51 PM

730,
See 200 or let me know .........when we re-did our SOG's last year we really got them ship shape and include a whole section on driving....we certainly dont need to read about anyone getting greased by one of us going on a call........also in FH Mag this month another good chapter about expressways by Ron Moore.

ff7134 · 03-12-2004, 10:21 AM

Ours says that you must respond with "Due Regard to Public Safety". Mainly because we did have alot of rule about everything including Speed limit to responding. Our department lawyers told us to remove it ....because by dictating to personnel how fast they can drive while responding makes the department financially responsible if you get into a crash and you exceeded the limit.

lmrchief2 · 03-13-2004, 09:25 AM

I didnt think MOE could get 0-60 between his house and your station

. We are in the process of reviewing our guidelines but I will give Moe a copy when he comes back to work Tuesday and you can do what you want with them. They are pretty genaric.

PFD109NFD107 · 03-13-2004, 11:46 AM

We are redoing our SOG/SOP in the city. If possible, can you all e-mail me what you have. Thanks!!!

firenresq77 · 03-13-2004, 07:12 PM

Ron, I will get you a copy of ours.

Ohiovolffemtp · 03-14-2004, 02:57 PM

Their are two themes here:
1. Whether volunteers should hae red lights & sirens on their POV's. That's a bid debate, but I don't think that's your key issue. Ohio law permits it. My personal perspective after 20+ years is that they can be a big help - shaving minutes off of response time.
2. What are appropriate SOG's for a department to use. Here are some suggestions:
a. Avoid specific limits like "only x miles per hour above the posted speed limit" Larry Bennett, a retired FF/EMT and attorney from the Cincinnati area has mentioned cases where a department was found liable when a driver was within the law but outside of an SOG like that.
b. Have the SOG's require compliance with Ohio law. That includes the "due regard" issue.
c. Require all volunteer POV's with lights & siren to display the current sticker from the fire marshal's office and to go through the annual inspection.
d. document counseling and discipline for problem drivers.
e. consider a probationary period for new volunteers before they are permitted to have red lights & sirens.
f. Consider regular safe driving classes. Several options include the Coaching the Emergency Vehicle Operator class from the National Safety Council or the VFIS course. The highway patrol will also come and speak about emergency driving laws. Do as they say and not as they do - the troopers often will violate traffic laws without lights & sirens on.

pfd3501 · 03-15-2004, 11:49 AM

You will need to have your law director review these prior to
enacting them. Good luck. We had a commitee of officers spend a lot of time to put our SOGs together. They need some rework, but they are pretty inclusive.

Talk to your law director. If you are a city/village department then the village attorney will need to review it. If you are a township department then an assistant from your counties prosecutor's office is the township's legal advisor.

The law director for our village at the time we wrote our SOGs told us that "you might as well wipe your *** with these" and tossed his copy in the trash after he looked them over. We're not alone in this. Kinda a catch 22. Our insurance carrier (Ohio Risk Management) requires this SOG book. The attorney won't sign off on it.

Being unpaid volunteers, he said their are things that a vollie can come against us for, Sexual Harassment, Libel, Slander, etc. You can discipline a vollie, with or without a rule book.

DOCUMENT, DOCUMENT, DOCUMENT

Tell him/her about what you feel has been done wrong. Explain that Lights and siren, even on department vehicles, do not, under Ohio Revised Code, give you free reign to drive like an idiot. Document the verbal warning. If you have to take further actions, document that. Talk to this person in front of a witness, ie another officer or a LEO or something.

pfd3501 · 03-15-2004, 11:54 AM

WTFDChief730 :Anyway, enough of my ramblin', if you guys have any formal written guideines on this matter, can you get me a copy.

mail your mailing address to me at mohican44@hotmail.com, I'll send a copy of our SOGs

WTFDChief730 · 03-15-2004, 11:39 PM

Thanks guys for your help and input on this, we have something in the works for a new SOG on this matter, should have it done in a couple weeks.

axman16 · 08-31-2006, 04:14 PM

Chief, We are in the process of looking at our driving SOG's. We are a combination department with the part-paid responding to the stations without lights and sirens. If you could e-mail me a copy of your new SOG's I would like to take a look at it before we rewrite ours.
Thanks, Jeff
jkowalski@sylvaniatownshipfire .com

firenresq77 · 08-31-2006, 07:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by axman16

Chief, We are in the process of looking at our driving SOG's. We are a combination department with the part-paid responding to the stations without lights and sirens. If you could e-mail me a copy of your new SOG's I would like to take a look at it before we rewrite ours.
Thanks, Jeff
jkowalski@sylvaniatownshipfire .com

Holy Toledo, Batman........ The Sylvania folks are movin in!!!!!!!

PFD109NFD107 · 08-31-2006, 11:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by firenresq77

Holy Toledo, Batman........ The Sylvania folks are movin in!!!!!!!

First Lake Township then Sylvania Township........

Who is next????? Perrysburg Township??

firenresq77 · 09-01-2006, 01:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PFD109NFD107

First Lake Township then Sylvania Township........

Who is next????? Perrysburg Township??

Could be?!?!?!?

mkamann · 09-01-2006, 01:51 PM

Doesn't the state have guidlines on driving already in which we have to follow? Than it is up to your Dept to us these or make them more stringent.

Weruj1 · 09-01-2006, 08:46 PM

with all this newness it's like it used to be here in the Buckeye forum.

firenresq77 · 09-02-2006, 02:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Weruj1

with all this newness it's like it used to be here in the Buckeye forum.

You're right........ There's actual activity in here!!!!!

Capt790 · 09-07-2006, 09:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by axman16

Chief, We are in the process of looking at our driving SOG's. We are a combination department with the part-paid responding to the stations without lights and sirens. If you could e-mail me a copy of your new SOG's I would like to take a look at it before we rewrite ours.
Thanks, Jeff
jkowalski@sylvaniatownshipfire .com

Jeff, here's the SOG that we came up with:
http://www.wtfd.net/redbook/sog43.html

03-11-2004, 10:11 PM	#1
WTFDChief730 MembersZone Subscriber Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: NW Ohio Posts: 102	driving POV guidelines Do any of your departments have written SOPs, SOGs or what ever you call them...procedures for driving your POV with lights and siren to the station. We dont on the WTFD, we just give them some basic verbal guidelines and I feel that is wrong. I personally dont use them on my POV and I have followed some of our members down the road to the station and would easily say they were drivin 60 mph plus down a 35 mph road. That ticks me off and I usually say something to them and give them a verbal warning, but its hard to back any possible further disipline without some guidlines to back me. Twice I was told the excuse "well nobody ever told me". I kind of take the blame for that in a way because I'm one of the department chiefs and I'm the one who can fix it. After reading all the horror stories about volunteers crashing their POV's on calls I need to do something. We have a ton of new young FF's who Im sure are very excited when a call comes in, and with their adrenalin Im sure they really dont realize their driving that fast. Anyway, enough of my ramblin', if you guys have any formal written guideines on this matter, can you get me a copy.

03-11-2004, 11:51 PM	#2
Weruj1 Forum Member Join Date: Dec 1999 Location: NW Ohio Posts: 7,655	730, See 200 or let me know .........when we re-did our SOG's last year we really got them ship shape and include a whole section on driving....we certainly dont need to read about anyone getting greased by one of us going on a call........also in FH Mag this month another good chapter about expressways by Ron Moore. __________________ IACOJ both divisions and PROUD OF IT ! Pardon me sir.. .....but I believe we are all over here ! ATTENTION ALL SHOPPERS: Will the dead horse please report to the forums.(thanks Motown) RAY WAS HERE 08/28/05 LETHA' FOREVA' ! 010607 I'm sorry, I haven't been paying much attention for the last 3 hours.....what were we discussing?

03-12-2004, 10:21 AM	#3
ff7134 MembersZone Subscriber Join Date: Nov 2002 Posts: 1,100	Ours says that you must respond with "Due Regard to Public Safety". Mainly because we did have alot of rule about everything including Speed limit to responding. Our department lawyers told us to remove it ....because by dictating to personnel how fast they can drive while responding makes the department financially responsible if you get into a crash and you exceeded the limit. __________________ AKA: Mr. Whoo-Whoo IAFF Local 3900 IACOJ-The Crusty Glow Worm ENGINE 302 - The Fire Rats F.A.N.T.A.M FOOLS FTM-PTB

03-13-2004, 09:25 AM	#4
lmrchief2 MembersZone Subscriber Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 206	I didnt think MOE could get 0-60 between his house and your station . We are in the process of reviewing our guidelines but I will give Moe a copy when he comes back to work Tuesday and you can do what you want with them. They are pretty genaric. __________________ Les Hartford Assistant Chief LMR Fire Dept. The views posted here are strickly my own and not of any of the groups I am affiliated with. IACOJ Member

03-14-2004, 02:57 PM	#7
Ohiovolffemtp MembersZone Subscriber Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Clermont County, Ohio Posts: 572	Emergency Response in POV's Their are two themes here: 1. Whether volunteers should hae red lights & sirens on their POV's. That's a bid debate, but I don't think that's your key issue. Ohio law permits it. My personal perspective after 20+ years is that they can be a big help - shaving minutes off of response time. 2. What are appropriate SOG's for a department to use. Here are some suggestions: a. Avoid specific limits like "only x miles per hour above the posted speed limit" Larry Bennett, a retired FF/EMT and attorney from the Cincinnati area has mentioned cases where a department was found liable when a driver was within the law but outside of an SOG like that. b. Have the SOG's require compliance with Ohio law. That includes the "due regard" issue. c. Require all volunteer POV's with lights & siren to display the current sticker from the fire marshal's office and to go through the annual inspection. d. document counseling and discipline for problem drivers. e. consider a probationary period for new volunteers before they are permitted to have red lights & sirens. f. Consider regular safe driving classes. Several options include the Coaching the Emergency Vehicle Operator class from the National Safety Council or the VFIS course. The highway patrol will also come and speak about emergency driving laws. Do as they say and not as they do - the troopers often will violate traffic laws without lights & sirens on. __________________ Proud to be honored with IACOJ membership. Blessed by TWO meals cooked by Cheffie - a true culinary goddess. Expressing my own views, not my organization's.

03-13-2004, 11:46 AM	#5
PFD109NFD107 MembersZone Subscriber Join Date: Jul 1999 Location: Northwood, Ohio, 43619 Posts: 356	We are redoing our SOG/SOP in the city. If possible, can you all e-mail me what you have. Thanks!!!

03-13-2004, 07:12 PM	#6
firenresq77 Forum Member Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Northwest Ohio Posts: 5,246	Ron, I will get you a copy of ours.

03-15-2004, 11:49 AM	#8
pfd3501 MembersZone Subscriber Join Date: Dec 2003 Posts: 861	you don't need SOGs to administer discipline You will need to have your law director review these prior to enacting them. Good luck. We had a commitee of officers spend a lot of time to put our SOGs together. They need some rework, but they are pretty inclusive. Talk to your law director. If you are a city/village department then the village attorney will need to review it. If you are a township department then an assistant from your counties prosecutor's office is the township's legal advisor. The law director for our village at the time we wrote our SOGs told us that "you might as well wipe your * with these" and tossed his copy in the trash after he looked them over. We're not alone in this. Kinda a catch 22. Our insurance carrier (Ohio Risk Management) requires this SOG book. The attorney won't sign off on it. Being unpaid volunteers, he said their are things that a vollie can come against us for, Sexual Harassment, Libel, Slander, etc. You can discipline a vollie, with or without a rule book. DOCUMENT, DOCUMENT, DOCUMENT** Tell him/her about what you feel has been done wrong. Explain that Lights and siren, even on department vehicles, do not, under Ohio Revised Code, give you free reign to drive like an idiot. Document the verbal warning. If you have to take further actions, document that. Talk to this person in front of a witness, ie another officer or a LEO or something.

03-15-2004, 11:54 AM	#9
pfd3501 MembersZone Subscriber Join Date: Dec 2003 Posts: 861	WTFDChief730 :Anyway, enough of my ramblin', if you guys have any formal written guideines on this matter, can you get me a copy. mail your mailing address to me at mohican44@hotmail.com, I'll send a copy of our SOGs

03-15-2004, 11:39 PM	#10
WTFDChief730 MembersZone Subscriber Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: NW Ohio Posts: 102	Thanks guys for your help and input on this, we have something in the works for a new SOG on this matter, should have it done in a couple weeks.

08-31-2006, 04:14 PM	#11
axman16 MembersZone Subscriber Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Sylvania Township, Sylvania Ohio 43560 Posts: 1	Chief, We are in the process of looking at our driving SOG's. We are a combination department with the part-paid responding to the stations without lights and sirens. If you could e-mail me a copy of your new SOG's I would like to take a look at it before we rewrite ours. Thanks, Jeff jkowalski@sylvaniatownshipfire .com

09-01-2006, 01:51 PM	#15
mkamann MembersZone Subscriber Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Northwest Ohio, Wood Co. Posts: 16	Doesn't the state have guidlines on driving already in which we have to follow? Than it is up to your Dept to us these or make them more stringent.

09-01-2006, 08:46 PM	#16
Weruj1 Forum Member Join Date: Dec 1999 Location: NW Ohio Posts: 7,655	with all this newness it's like it used to be here in the Buckeye forum. __________________ IACOJ both divisions and PROUD OF IT ! Pardon me sir.. .....but I believe we are all over here ! ATTENTION ALL SHOPPERS: Will the dead horse please report to the forums.(thanks Motown) RAY WAS HERE 08/28/05 LETHA' FOREVA' ! 010607 I'm sorry, I haven't been paying much attention for the last 3 hours.....what were we discussing?

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