City Won't Pay for Accident Damage - Firehouse Forums

WTFD10 · 05-01-2004, 11:05 PM

Anybody heard of this "new law"?

City Won't Pay for Accident Damage

http://www.wtol.com/Global/story.asp?S=1831062

TOLEDO -- A local woman feels like she is being ignored by the city of Toledo after a city vehicle hit her pickup truck. It happened earlier this month on Central Avenue near Jackman. A fire truck responding to an emergency lost control, and slammed into several vehicles. There were no serious injuries, but there was a lot of damage that the city won't pay for.

Kim Lopez, one of the victims, says her bills are now more than $8,000 dollars, and she can't believe the city won't pick up the tab since she was pulled off to the side of the road when the driver of the fire truck lost control. But now the city says it's protected by a legal loophole.

"I did everything you're told to do when there is a fire truck coming. I got over as far as I could and stopped," said Lopez. But some cars weren't as respectful, and a city fire truck went out of control trying to slip through. "The truck continued in my lane, until I saw it was coming head on. Told my son hold on, he's gonna hit us head on," said Lopez.

Kim's truck was hit from the side, leaving behind all sorts of damage. "The gentleman driving the fire truck says, 'Are you okay?' I said, 'Yeah, I think so.' We were shaking like leaves. He says, 'I'm really sorry. I was standing on my brakes. We had none,'"

Kim assumed the city would handle her repair bills. "I think a lot of people, their first reaction would be that city is responsible, but according to state law, the city is not liable for that circumstance," said Samuel Nugent from Toledo's law department. When Kim asked the city to pay up, he said not so fast. "It's certainly unfortunate, but the law is the law," said Nugent.

News 11 dug up the facts. According to the Ohio Revised Code, rescue crews are not responsible for causing damage "while proceeding toward a fire, or answering any other emergency alarm."

Kim Lopez thinks the city is getting by on a technicality. And with more than $8,000 in damage to her truck, she feels like the city soul pony up, despite the law.

It's important to point out, Kim does have car insurance, and most of the damage to her truck is covered. But she's worried about her rates going up. And she's still got to pay almost $300 bucks for her deductible.

We're told the purpose of the new law is to save tax payers money by helping the city avoid lawsuits and big insurance payouts. It also helps rescue crews get to a scene quicker. That's because they don't have to worry about being held responsible should they get in a wreck.

The state law only covers rescue crews like police and firefighters. Other first responders like private ambulance services are not covered.

Posted 7:35pm, Friday, April 30, 2004

Weruj1 · 05-01-2004, 11:23 PM

WOW !!!!!!!!!!! wonder what will happen in Maumee ?

(or anywhere else for that matter)

PFD109NFD107 · 05-02-2004, 07:02 PM

I'll also say WOW!!! That's a new one to me. I have never heard about that law. Don't quite sure I agree with either.

WTFDChief730 · 05-02-2004, 11:06 PM

Very interesting...I never heard of that also. I have a question for those of you that respond with lights/sirens in your POV. If this same senerio happened to you as did this engine driver in your POV responding to a call or the station, how would your city/township handle it? Would they cover your damage? If you were at fault would you get cited for the accident or would the city/township back you on it. How would your insurance handle this if you were at fault.

Last year we had a member on the WTFD responding to the station have a large tree branch fall just as she was driving by for a call, the branch knocked her power doorside mirror right of her brand new car and cause a dent and scratch. She approched the township to help cover the cost or deductable for the damage since she was responding to a call for the township VFD. Her request was denied and she had to cover the damage herself through her insurance company. She since then took her lights and sirens off and said she will never use them again, I told her I dont blame her and thats why I dont have them either.

A few years back, one of our members responding lights/sirens proceeded through a red light and caused an accident, the Toledo Police cited our member since some of our members drive through Toledo to get to the WTFD station. Our member was cited and was found at fault and the points went against him on his licence and he was responsible for the other vehicles damage.

PFD109NFD107 · 05-03-2004, 01:00 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by WTFDChief730
A few years back, one of our members responding lights/sirens proceeded through a red light and caused an accident, the Toledo Police cited our member since some of our members drive through Toledo to get to the WTFD station. Our member was cited and was found at fault and the points went against him on his licence and he was responsible for the other vehicles damage.

I always heard that if you were responding code 3 to an emergency and got involved in an accident that you received no points. I wonder if that's one of them ol' stories or if it is only applicable to a fire or EMS apparatus.

As for the original question.. I am sure that our fine city(PB) would laugh any request for compensation right out the door.

Weruj1 · 05-03-2004, 08:38 AM

hmmmmmmmmmmm about the tre branch.............your kinda on your own, and as far as casuing an accident ? I would need more info, but back in the day of savin lives on the east side we did cause a few of them from panicked drivers stopping too soon and rear ending someone else and never got cited. If yoou are driving with due regard how could the PD cite you ?

WTFD10 · 05-03-2004, 10:56 AM

In my opinion, responding to a call had nothing to do with the tree branch falling on her car and it was ridiculous to expect the Twp. to pay for it. If she had been going to Krogers when it happened, would she expect them to pay for the damage?!

I think “The News Channel” has interpreted this new law wrong.

Quote:

It also helps rescue crews get to a scene quicker. That's because they don't have to worry about being held responsible should they get in a wreck.

C'mon, this contradicts every other Ohio law about emergency vehicles and using due regard.

I can just see it now: Some yahoo driving Code 3 down the sidewalk running over garbage cans and Big Wheels saying “I don’t have to worry about being held responsible 'cuz I’m goin’ to a fire!”

WTFD10 · 05-03-2004, 11:02 AM

Oh and one more thing:

Quote:

The state law only covers rescue crews like police and firefighters.

Why do the cops respond to structure fires Code 3? What are they gonna do, shoot the fire out? Order it to disperse or they'll send in the tear gas?

It must be so they can get the good parking spot right in front of the closest hydrant...

Weruj1 · 05-03-2004, 12:07 PM

Moe,
serenitiy now .............serenity now !!!

Ohiovolffemtp · 05-03-2004, 12:11 PM

There are two different issues here:
1. Civil liability for damage due to auto accidents.
2. Traffic charges for driving while responding.

Concerning civil liability: Ohio has a doctrine called soveriegn immunity. Essentially, it protects governmental bodies from liability for actions caused by their employees. So, that's why Toledo didn't have to cover the damage to the lady's car. We had a similar instance near where I live where a school bus driver caused an accident. Even though she was cited and paid a fine, the school district didn't have to pay for the damage to the other person's car. However, this only covers vehicles owned by the governmental agency. So, this won't cover our volly POV's.

Concerning traffic charges: the ORC (Ohio Revised Code), includes language to the effect that all operators of emergency and public safety vehicles must drive with due regard for the safety of others. So, that's probably why the person who was responding hot was found at fault for the crash. It didn't matter if they were driving through Toledo, just what the specifics of that situation were.

WTFD10 · 05-03-2004, 12:11 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Weruj1
Moe,
serenitiy now .............serenity now !!!

LOL

Well, you know what Lloyd Braun said: "Serentiy now....Insanity later"

Weruj1 · 05-03-2004, 12:16 PM

Paully ..............great pic of you & Cheffie !

ff7134 · 05-03-2004, 03:06 PM

So would that cover us if we say....ran over someones dog with the Engine?

Don't ask!!!

firenresq77 · 05-03-2004, 06:48 PM

I, too, had never heard this until I saw the article on the news website the other day. I still can't believe it.

As for having an accident while responding in POV.......... Well, let's just say I hope none of us ever find out......... Especially none of us in Northwood. I have a sneaky feeling that we'd better be sure all our i's are dotted and t's are crossed, otherwise we better not drop the soap.........

UAFDLTMED · 05-04-2004, 10:20 AM

Something else to consider about the soveriegnty law. If your personal property is on city grounds and it is damaged by city property, the city is immune for damages. This has happened a couple of times at my city. We were conducting ground ladder drills, a ladder got away(wind) and landed on a firefighters car. City claimed immunity and won. We also had a members truck backed into by a fire truck and the city paid nothing.

mvbn001 · 05-09-2004, 12:42 AM

I was at this crash. After reading the article, I don't see where they say anything about the car that Engine-17 was trying to avoid hitting. I would think the woman driving the pick-up truck could go after that driver, since they caused Engine-17's driver to "stand on the brakes". I have photos of this crash, if anyone is interested.

Mike [MVBN-1]
Miami Valley Breaking News

Weruj1 · 05-09-2004, 12:58 AM

well I was going to PM you or email but I dont see those choices listed in your profile/post............contact me for my email addy ...

mvbn001 · 05-10-2004, 01:02 AM

I fixed that issue with my email and PM. I'm going to re-post the photos on our website. I'll let you know when I have them posted.

Mike

05-01-2004, 11:05 PM	#1
WTFD10 MembersZone Subscriber Join Date: Dec 2000 Posts: 1,722	City Won't Pay for Accident Damage Anybody heard of this "new law"? City Won't Pay for Accident Damage http://www.wtol.com/Global/story.asp?S=1831062 TOLEDO -- A local woman feels like she is being ignored by the city of Toledo after a city vehicle hit her pickup truck. It happened earlier this month on Central Avenue near Jackman. A fire truck responding to an emergency lost control, and slammed into several vehicles. There were no serious injuries, but there was a lot of damage that the city won't pay for. Kim Lopez, one of the victims, says her bills are now more than $8,000 dollars, and she can't believe the city won't pick up the tab since she was pulled off to the side of the road when the driver of the fire truck lost control. But now the city says it's protected by a legal loophole. "I did everything you're told to do when there is a fire truck coming. I got over as far as I could and stopped," said Lopez. But some cars weren't as respectful, and a city fire truck went out of control trying to slip through. "The truck continued in my lane, until I saw it was coming head on. Told my son hold on, he's gonna hit us head on," said Lopez. Kim's truck was hit from the side, leaving behind all sorts of damage. "The gentleman driving the fire truck says, 'Are you okay?' I said, 'Yeah, I think so.' We were shaking like leaves. He says, 'I'm really sorry. I was standing on my brakes. We had none,'" Kim assumed the city would handle her repair bills. "I think a lot of people, their first reaction would be that city is responsible, but according to state law, the city is not liable for that circumstance," said Samuel Nugent from Toledo's law department. When Kim asked the city to pay up, he said not so fast. "It's certainly unfortunate, but the law is the law," said Nugent. News 11 dug up the facts. According to the Ohio Revised Code, rescue crews are not responsible for causing damage "while proceeding toward a fire, or answering any other emergency alarm." Kim Lopez thinks the city is getting by on a technicality. And with more than $8,000 in damage to her truck, she feels like the city soul pony up, despite the law. It's important to point out, Kim does have car insurance, and most of the damage to her truck is covered. But she's worried about her rates going up. And she's still got to pay almost $300 bucks for her deductible. We're told the purpose of the new law is to save tax payers money by helping the city avoid lawsuits and big insurance payouts. It also helps rescue crews get to a scene quicker. That's because they don't have to worry about being held responsible should they get in a wreck. The state law only covers rescue crews like police and firefighters. Other first responders like private ambulance services are not covered. Posted 7:35pm, Friday, April 30, 2004 __________________ FTM-PTB-DTRT Last edited by WTFD10; 05-01-2004 at 11:08 PM.

05-01-2004, 11:23 PM	#2
Weruj1 Forum Member Join Date: Dec 1999 Location: NW Ohio Posts: 7,655	WOW !!!!!!!!!!! wonder what will happen in Maumee ? (or anywhere else for that matter) __________________ IACOJ both divisions and PROUD OF IT ! Pardon me sir.. .....but I believe we are all over here ! ATTENTION ALL SHOPPERS: Will the dead horse please report to the forums.(thanks Motown) RAY WAS HERE 08/28/05 LETHA' FOREVA' ! 010607 I'm sorry, I haven't been paying much attention for the last 3 hours.....what were we discussing?

05-02-2004, 11:06 PM	#4
WTFDChief730 MembersZone Subscriber Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: NW Ohio Posts: 102	Very interesting...I never heard of that also. I have a question for those of you that respond with lights/sirens in your POV. If this same senerio happened to you as did this engine driver in your POV responding to a call or the station, how would your city/township handle it? Would they cover your damage? If you were at fault would you get cited for the accident or would the city/township back you on it. How would your insurance handle this if you were at fault. Last year we had a member on the WTFD responding to the station have a large tree branch fall just as she was driving by for a call, the branch knocked her power doorside mirror right of her brand new car and cause a dent and scratch. She approched the township to help cover the cost or deductable for the damage since she was responding to a call for the township VFD. Her request was denied and she had to cover the damage herself through her insurance company. She since then took her lights and sirens off and said she will never use them again, I told her I dont blame her and thats why I dont have them either. A few years back, one of our members responding lights/sirens proceeded through a red light and caused an accident, the Toledo Police cited our member since some of our members drive through Toledo to get to the WTFD station. Our member was cited and was found at fault and the points went against him on his licence and he was responsible for the other vehicles damage. Last edited by WTFDChief730; 05-02-2004 at 11:15 PM.

05-03-2004, 08:38 AM	#6
Weruj1 Forum Member Join Date: Dec 1999 Location: NW Ohio Posts: 7,655	hmmmmmmmmmmm about the tre branch.............your kinda on your own, and as far as casuing an accident ? I would need more info, but back in the day of savin lives on the east side we did cause a few of them from panicked drivers stopping too soon and rear ending someone else and never got cited. If yoou are driving with due regard how could the PD cite you ? __________________ IACOJ both divisions and PROUD OF IT ! Pardon me sir.. .....but I believe we are all over here ! ATTENTION ALL SHOPPERS: Will the dead horse please report to the forums.(thanks Motown) RAY WAS HERE 08/28/05 LETHA' FOREVA' ! 010607 I'm sorry, I haven't been paying much attention for the last 3 hours.....what were we discussing?

05-03-2004, 12:07 PM	#9
Weruj1 Forum Member Join Date: Dec 1999 Location: NW Ohio Posts: 7,655	Moe, serenitiy now .............serenity now !!! __________________ IACOJ both divisions and PROUD OF IT ! Pardon me sir.. .....but I believe we are all over here ! ATTENTION ALL SHOPPERS: Will the dead horse please report to the forums.(thanks Motown) RAY WAS HERE 08/28/05 LETHA' FOREVA' ! 010607 I'm sorry, I haven't been paying much attention for the last 3 hours.....what were we discussing?

05-02-2004, 07:02 PM	#3
PFD109NFD107 MembersZone Subscriber Join Date: Jul 1999 Location: Northwood, Ohio, 43619 Posts: 356	I'll also say WOW!!! That's a new one to me. I have never heard about that law. Don't quite sure I agree with either.

05-03-2004, 12:11 PM	#10
Ohiovolffemtp MembersZone Subscriber Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Clermont County, Ohio Posts: 572	Liability For Damage Due To Auto Accidents There are two different issues here: 1. Civil liability for damage due to auto accidents. 2. Traffic charges for driving while responding. Concerning civil liability: Ohio has a doctrine called soveriegn immunity. Essentially, it protects governmental bodies from liability for actions caused by their employees. So, that's why Toledo didn't have to cover the damage to the lady's car. We had a similar instance near where I live where a school bus driver caused an accident. Even though she was cited and paid a fine, the school district didn't have to pay for the damage to the other person's car. However, this only covers vehicles owned by the governmental agency. So, this won't cover our volly POV's. Concerning traffic charges: the ORC (Ohio Revised Code), includes language to the effect that all operators of emergency and public safety vehicles must drive with due regard for the safety of others. So, that's probably why the person who was responding hot was found at fault for the crash. It didn't matter if they were driving through Toledo, just what the specifics of that situation were. __________________ Proud to be honored with IACOJ membership. Blessed by TWO meals cooked by Cheffie - a true culinary goddess. Expressing my own views, not my organization's.

05-03-2004, 12:16 PM	#12
Weruj1 Forum Member Join Date: Dec 1999 Location: NW Ohio Posts: 7,655	Paully ..............great pic of you & Cheffie ! __________________ IACOJ both divisions and PROUD OF IT ! Pardon me sir.. .....but I believe we are all over here ! ATTENTION ALL SHOPPERS: Will the dead horse please report to the forums.(thanks Motown) RAY WAS HERE 08/28/05 LETHA' FOREVA' ! 010607 I'm sorry, I haven't been paying much attention for the last 3 hours.....what were we discussing?

05-03-2004, 03:06 PM	#13
ff7134 MembersZone Subscriber Join Date: Nov 2002 Posts: 1,100	So would that cover us if we say....ran over someones dog with the Engine? Don't ask!!! __________________ AKA: Mr. Whoo-Whoo IAFF Local 3900 IACOJ-The Crusty Glow Worm ENGINE 302 - The Fire Rats F.A.N.T.A.M FOOLS FTM-PTB

05-03-2004, 06:48 PM	#14
firenresq77 Forum Member Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Northwest Ohio Posts: 5,246	I, too, had never heard this until I saw the article on the news website the other day. I still can't believe it. As for having an accident while responding in POV.......... Well, let's just say I hope none of us ever find out......... Especially none of us in Northwood. I have a sneaky feeling that we'd better be sure all our i's are dotted and t's are crossed, otherwise we better not drop the soap.........

05-04-2004, 10:20 AM	#15
UAFDLTMED MembersZone Subscriber Join Date: Mar 2004 Posts: 26	Something else to consider about the soveriegnty law. If your personal property is on city grounds and it is damaged by city property, the city is immune for damages. This has happened a couple of times at my city. We were conducting ground ladder drills, a ladder got away(wind) and landed on a firefighters car. City claimed immunity and won. We also had a members truck backed into by a fire truck and the city paid nothing.

05-09-2004, 12:42 AM	#16
mvbn001 Junior Member Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Springfield, Ohio Posts: 3	I was at this crash. After reading the article, I don't see where they say anything about the car that Engine-17 was trying to avoid hitting. I would think the woman driving the pick-up truck could go after that driver, since they caused Engine-17's driver to "stand on the brakes". I have photos of this crash, if anyone is interested. Mike [MVBN-1] Miami Valley Breaking News

05-09-2004, 12:58 AM	#17
Weruj1 Forum Member Join Date: Dec 1999 Location: NW Ohio Posts: 7,655	well I was going to PM you or email but I dont see those choices listed in your profile/post............contact me for my email addy ... __________________ IACOJ both divisions and PROUD OF IT ! Pardon me sir.. .....but I believe we are all over here ! ATTENTION ALL SHOPPERS: Will the dead horse please report to the forums.(thanks Motown) RAY WAS HERE 08/28/05 LETHA' FOREVA' ! 010607 I'm sorry, I haven't been paying much attention for the last 3 hours.....what were we discussing?

05-10-2004, 01:02 AM	#18
mvbn001 Junior Member Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Springfield, Ohio Posts: 3	I fixed that issue with my email and PM. I'm going to re-post the photos on our website. I'll let you know when I have them posted. Mike __________________ Mike Linthicum [MVBN1] Miami Valley Breaking News "Your choice for real-time incident notifications" Now offering "LIVE SCANNER BROADCASTS!" www.mvbn.net mike.linthicum@mvbn.net

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