View Poll Results: Which one is a better setup?

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  • Butterfly on right, Piston on left.

    3 20.00%
  • Butterfly on left, Piston on right.

    12 80.00%
  1. #1
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    Default Side Selection for Intake valves - Hivemind question

    I'd like some input from the forum members please. We have a shift war at my Station over this issue, and I'll try to describe it without poisoning the well.

    We have a Piston Intake Valve for LDH, and a 6" Butterfly Intake Valve for drafting. The truck has a left-hand operator's panel with a 1,000 GPM midship. The exhaust exits on the right forward of the rear wheels, and about 3' behind the right hand steamer. We operate in an area that is only partially hydranted, and we are required to use drop tank operations from time to time, but would end up catching a hydrant far more frequently than a drop tank or dry hydrant.

    One shift wants the BIV on the left and the PIV on the right.
    Another shift wants the PIV on the left, and the BIV on the right.

    Please state your opinion, and some reasons to support it, or some reasons to shoot down the other side of the argument.

    I'm at work right now, but when I get home I can access NFPA 1901-2008 on my laptop and make some specific references on this issue. Maybe the Appendix has something juicy on this issue.

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    That's a common controversy. I'm aware that NFPA wants them on the right side (along with all large discharges). We have ours on the left side on the engine that has one. Our newest engine, equipped with a manually operated MIV, has it on the left side, too. It's a matter of control to us. With our monster hydrant pressures we like to be able to monitor the incoming pressure as we open them.

    The argument may be made that you really should only have to open and close once during any given event. With our newer engine having CAFS and an automatic tank fill that takes off ahead of the MIV, there are occasions that we may want to switch back and forth.

    In the rare event that we have to draft, we prefer to do that from the right side and make every effort to do so. If you have a preferred side for drafting bear in mind that all such valve will present a certain amount of restriction. We have successfully drafted through our piston intake valve for practice, but to get maximum flow you may have to remove it.

    All that being said, I know of many departments that face the same situations that we do that have theirs on the right side. So I guess it comes down to departmental preference and operating proceduresl

    Stay safe out there, everyone goes home!

  3. #3
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    Why have any valve at all for drafting? Like Chiefengineer11 said, it's a restriction. Granted, a butterfly is a small restriction, but a restriction still the same. When you are drafting, you want efficiency, and as little restrictions as possible.

    I have never operated under any kind of SOP's for drafting. So the few times that I actually did it for drills or emergencies, I opted to take whichever valve off completely. It only takes a few seconds of time with the dead blow mallet, so why not. The valve gains you nothing in a drafting operation.
    "Loyalty Above all Else. Except Honor."

  4. #4
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    Default I want the dump tank where I can see it.

    As a rural department that only does drafting operations, I want the dump tank close to the pump panel. We try to off-set it so it isn't actually blocking the panel. We often have situations where we are switching back and forth between the truck tank and dump tank so the valve is crucial. I keep the truck tank full and use the dump tank water first. No risk losing prime when switching from dump tank to truck tank. I always alert the guys when I'm going the other way JUST IN CASE.

    I vote for the butterfly on the panel side. Pressure lines are hopefully on the other side of the truck for safety reason.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FWDbuff View Post
    Why have any valve at all for drafting? Like Chiefengineer11 said, it's a restriction. Granted, a butterfly is a small restriction, but a restriction still the same. When you are drafting, you want efficiency, and as little restrictions as possible.

    I have never operated under any kind of SOP's for drafting. So the few times that I actually did it for drills or emergencies, I opted to take whichever valve off completely. It only takes a few seconds of time with the dead blow mallet, so why not. The valve gains you nothing in a drafting operation.
    Actually the valve gains you quite a bit. How about wanting to start operations from the on board booster tank while drop tanks etc are set up and filled, and suction hoses and strainers are connected, then opening the draft valve when ready? A good operator can actually make the transition from booster tank operations to drafting without interuption, but that can only be done if there is a valve to control the suction intake. Also what about drafting from both sides of the engine, we do that very frequently. A drop tank on both sides and the operator uses the intake valves to control from which tank (or both at the same time) the drafting takes place. I can't imagine not having full control over the intakes on the pump, but we draft very frequently, its the norm not the exception around here.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by sdff1520 View Post
    Actually the valve gains you quite a bit. How about wanting to start operations from the on board booster tank while drop tanks etc are set up and filled, and suction hoses and strainers are connected, then opening the draft valve when ready? A good operator can actually make the transition from booster tank operations to drafting without interuption, but that can only be done if there is a valve to control the suction intake. Also what about drafting from both sides of the engine, we do that very frequently. A drop tank on both sides and the operator uses the intake valves to control from which tank (or both at the same time) the drafting takes place. I can't imagine not having full control over the intakes on the pump, but we draft very frequently, its the norm not the exception around here.
    Very good points, things I did not think about- Drafting for us is quite the exception! I'll be the first person to admit I know poop about rural water supply operations. Around here, chances are, if we have to draft, the water in the booster tank ain't gonna make a $hittin' bit of difference!!!!

    Now I do see the value. But I certainly would not want a PIV.....WAYYY too much friction loss.
    "Loyalty Above all Else. Except Honor."

  7. #7
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    Default Valves and drafting

    Back around 1985 we switched to LDH and installed a piston valve on our apparatus. It was mounted on the drivers side of the apparatus. We also purchased suction hose with 5" Storz connections. We were the fire company that made Snap Tite use 2 diffrent gaskets on the appliances. one is a flat gasket and the other is what we called the "bump gasket". Look at the valve and you will see what I mean. To draft, you need a bump gasket on the suction hoses and strainers and on the piston valve. No bump gaskets and you have an air leak.
    That being said, a lot of the companies around here wanted front suction on the apparatus; Talk about a restriction. A 1500 gpm drafting from the front is only good for 1000-1100 gpm or there abouts. Which is ok for a house fire or tanker shuttle operations, but for big water evolutions, Ng.

    Use front and side sustions and you have a 2000 or better pumper(which is all the manufacturers do anyways) Grab suction hose off another pumper as it goes by to the scene, or lays hose past you.

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    Anyone know the flow differences between the 5" hole (storz on the hard sleeves) and a 6" hole (NST couplings?)????????
    "Loyalty Above all Else. Except Honor."

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    Interesting situation. There's several pluses and minuses to both situations. Anything you put on the driver's side has the potential to restrict the engineer's work area. At the same time, anything on the passenger side isn't within easy reach/view.

    Our solution to this kind of problem is that we're putting the TFT BIVs on both sides of our rig. They're set up with 6" male threads on the ouside of the valve. We can either hook up our suction or put on the adapter to make it a storz connection for our LDH. We cover either scenerio on either side this way.

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    Quote Originally Posted by chiefengineer11 View Post
    If you have a preferred side for drafting bear in mind that all such valve will present a certain amount of restriction. We have successfully drafted through our piston intake valve for practice, but to get maximum flow you may have to remove it.
    True,
    However, we've flow tested our Butterfly valve with 10' of 6" HSH and a low level strainer. It tapped out at 1,250 GPM before cavitation. That's more than enough, and no tanker shuttle would keep up with that pace.
    Quote Originally Posted by FWDbuff View Post
    Why have any valve at all for drafting? Like Chiefengineer11 said, it's a restriction.

    The valve gains you nothing in a drafting operation.
    We have to be able to make a transition from booster tank to drop tank without interrupting flow to crews involved in fire attack. And in a high flow scenario, we may have more than one drop tank going. If one goes dry, we need to be able to seal it off to prevent loss of prime.
    Quote Originally Posted by Engine305 View Post
    We were the fire company that made Snap Tite use 2 diffrent gaskets on the appliances. one is a flat gasket and the other is what we called the "bump gasket". Look at the valve and you will see what I mean. To draft, you need a bump gasket on the suction hoses and strainers and on the piston valve. No bump gaskets and you have an air leak.

    That being said, a lot of the companies around here wanted front suction on the apparatus; Talk about a restriction. A 1500 gpm drafting from the front is only good for 1000-1100 gpm or there abouts. Which is ok for a house fire or tanker shuttle operations, but for big water evolutions, Ng.

    Use front and side sustions and you have a 2000 or better pumper(which is all the manufacturers do anyways) Grab suction hose off another pumper as it goes by to the scene, or lays hose past you.
    Engine305, you obviously know your way around a centrifugal pump. We have the proper gaskets for our Storz, but our Dept made the ill-conceived decision to use 4" instead of 5". That's too much of a restriction. Attached below is a picture showing the two gaskets you speak of.

    Also, we performed a drafting drill last year to determine flow rates of various intake setups. Our front suction tapped out at 1,100 GPM. Then we hooked up using all three intakes, and flowed 2,300. The truck is a 1997 Sutphen with a Detroit 60 driving a Hale single stage rated at 1,000 GPM. Pics are below.
    Quote Originally Posted by FWDbuff View Post
    Anyone know the flow differences between the 5" hole (storz on the hard sleeves) and a 6" hole (NST couplings?)????????
    A 5" open butt with 14.7 psi on it would flow not less than 1,992 GPM, assuming a worst case scenario of a "0.7" restricted orifice.
    A 6" would flow 2,870 GPM, as it has 44% more area than the 5".
    Attached Images Attached Images  
    Last edited by txgp17; 01-02-2009 at 05:13 PM.

  11. #11
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    We currently are 100% draft. Soon to be making change to LDH relay for in town operations from a new fire pond.

    We use a Hydro-Shield PreCon PC3 on the left/pump operator panel and draft off the left side/portatank. The is a bit expensive but auto transfer from draft to booster tank (we have 1500gal) without losing prime in the suction hose. http://www.hydra-shield.com/products_3.php

    A big improvement would be a rear suction (and/or rear mount pump) so can do drive by tanker shuttle vs the local practice of backing up to portatank.

    In theory a strainer with footvalve is supposed to accomplish much the same. Have not tried on myself yet.

    Regarding suction size. For 1250gpm+ you don't want a 5"S suction you need 6" of whatever flavor. Go to 6"Storz or there are FD using 6" camlock (see Kochek) which is reportedly (and logically) very quick to hookup (if you don't have a preconnect/squirreltail suction).

    If you have a new pumper likely has a Intake Relief Valve behind the pump panel. In which case is there any reason you need ANY intake relief valve on the side of the truck?

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    You can't go without some kind of valve. If you are flowing tank water and decide to hook up either a draft or LDH supply, as soon as you open that intake cap without some kind of gate, you're done.
    Even the burger-flippers at McDonald's probably have some McWackers.

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    But doesn't need to be a relief valve. A butterfly will work at less $.

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    Of course. Something with a gate. It could be a garden hose valve for all it matters.
    Even the burger-flippers at McDonald's probably have some McWackers.

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    Quote Originally Posted by neiowa View Post
    If you have a new pumper likely has a Intake Relief Valve behind the pump panel. In which case is there any reason you need ANY intake relief valve on the side of the truck?
    Paragraph 16.6.6 of NFPA 1901 (2003) requires it. Each valved intake that is 3.5" or larger is required to have a pressure relief device on the supply side of the valve.

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    Looks like you're correct. I wonder if NFPA has heard of rural pumpers? A pressure relief is a big need on a suction intake. An for the city pumper spend $2k on a intake relief and then a second time for a external relief valve. Make sense.

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    Poll added

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    Quote Originally Posted by neiowa View Post
    Looks like you're correct. I wonder if NFPA has heard of rural pumpers? A pressure relief is a big need on a suction intake. An for the city pumper spend $2k on a intake relief and then a second time for a external relief valve. Make sense.
    I'm trying to decipher if you're being sarcastic about the pressure relief on the suction intake. We are rural, but we relay pump so the relief is a necessity. You said something about relaying out of a new pond so it sounds like this applies to you too.

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    Point was, if truck has a relief valve in the intake (that you just paid a couple grand for) what good is duplicate relief on the exterior butterfly/piston?

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    If the intake valve is closed, then the LDH hose is isolated from the intake reflief valve. So if a relay pumper sends it out with too much pressure, you could rupture a hose.

    I agree, it's double redundant (pun), but I understand it's purpose.

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    All other arguing points aside, I would vote for:

    Butterfly on Street (Drivers) side & PIV on the Curb (Officers) side.

    Reason being that you will most likely pull up beside a hydrant on the curb side of the apparatus and if you are drafting - then having the drop tanks on the street side of the apparatus makes them more accessible to the tankers that are filling them.

    my 2 cents worth.
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    Actually (dispite common practice) locating the foldatank to the side of the pumper just puts in the middle of the logical tanker shuttle route. Eliminates driveby/side dump. Best location is to the rear (or in front) of the pumper.

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    Quote Originally Posted by neiowa View Post
    Actually (dispite common practice) locating the foldatank to the side of the pumper just puts in the middle of the logical tanker shuttle route. Eliminates driveby/side dump. Best location is to the rear (or in front) of the pumper.
    100% correct - I was merely over simplifying for the sake of discussion to the question presented on where to locate valves on the apparatus.

    And in a perfect world we would probably do it that way here too - the catch is all but the newest tankers in the county don't have side dumps. Also many of these have long since lost the director chutes (if they even had one to begin with) so we're still stuck backing most of them up. In which case the in-line or beside argument is pretty much moot.

    If space permits we will put the attack piece in the yard / driveway and stage the drop tank(s) such that the tankers can pull past & back in to unload and then pull out in either direction to complete the loop to the fill site(s) giving the same benefit as the Front/Rear placement and also keeping the roadway open for other apparatus or traffic.
    Take Care - Stay Safe - God Bless
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    bump to solicit more votes

    Quote Originally Posted by GeorgeWendtCFI View Post
    That's called extortion. .
    Keep digging a deeper hole Matlock. I like to see your hilarious explanation of how those circumstances met the definition of extortion.
    Quote Originally Posted by GeorgeWendtCFI View Post
    Great attitude for people that you serve who are in need
    Was fighting their fires, and providing them with and ISO Class 7 rating not good enough? We provided these services free of charge. No matter how many times we were called, we came and fought fire. The only fee they ever paid was that to acquire a Fire Report.

    Had we chose not to provide the coverage, they would lack any fire protection and pay insurance rates equivalent to a ISO Class 10, which is the same as having no Fire Dept.

    Quote Originally Posted by GeorgeWendtCFI View Post
    Liar. You wrote:

    When you cannot be paid $20,000 by the insurance company for lack of a fire report, $200 seems insignificant
    And claims weren't paid, until the Fire Report was provided. But seeing as everyone paid the $200 fee, there was never a claim that lacked a fire report to be denied. The worst that ever happened was that the claims were delayed until people acquired the report. You're oblivious to the obvious.
    Quote Originally Posted by GeorgeWendtCFI View Post
    It may be. Even if it's not, it is ethically and morally repugnant.
    Quote Originally Posted by GeorgeWendtCFI View Post




    As I said before, of course it is required. But it is NOT required that the insured provide it. As I said, you know nothing about insurance.
    Quote Originally Posted by GeorgeWendtCFI View Post




    I guess when you are desperately trying to save face because the BS flag has been shoved down your throat, you will resort to anything. As I pointed out above, you said insurance cos. were denying claims if the insured didn't produce a fire report. I was pointing out to you that not only was it not true, it would not be legal for an insurance co. to do this. Try to keep up, huh?
    Quote Originally Posted by GeorgeWendtCFI View Post




    They most certainly did. Many years ago, these companies employed folks to go around and gather the reports. Now they do it mainly be mail and electronic mail. Please try not to argue about things you have absolutely no idea about. It's embarrassing for you.
    Quote Originally Posted by GeorgeWendtCFI View Post




    Really? You really want to go with that?
    Quote Originally Posted by GeorgeWendtCFI View Post




    I'm telling you that every fire claim is investigated at some level. Many times, in the case of minor fires, the case is investigated by the adjuster by reviewing the fire reports. If all seems in order, they proceed with adjusting the claim. THAT'S WHY THEY NEED THE FIRE REPORT, GENIUS!
    Quote Originally Posted by GeorgeWendtCFI View Post




    Because those laws are exactly the same.
    Quote Originally Posted by GeorgeWendtCFI View Post


    Your ignorance shows no bounds.
    [QUOTE=GeorgeWendtCFI;1101131]
    Last edited by txgp17; 10-03-2009 at 06:33 PM.

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