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  1. #1
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    Exclamation precausionary 1 3/4" line

    Hello
    I am A volunteer a local fire dept. we are having a disagreement with
    the local rescue squad about having a charged hose-line manned and
    ready during a vehicle extrication. can you send me the info of whether
    there are regulations or recommendations to that fact and locations of
    the same.

    thank you

    joe


  2. #2
    MembersZone Subscriber BULL321's Avatar
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    What is the argument? Why would you not have the line charged and maned? We always have a lined pulled off and charged when we are cutting someone out of a car. Better Safe than sorry. You want a recommendation, Its better to get wet than to get burnt.

    Stay Safe Brother

    Bull
    Stay Safe
    Bull


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  3. #3
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    Default More info. please

    Provide some more info.

    Is your department in favor of it or not?

    Does the Rescue Squad want it or not?

    Are they a separate organization?

    Are you both toned out for accidents?

    Who is the IC? (I know the answer, but need to make the point)

  4. #4
    Forum Member fireguy919's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fire303 View Post
    Provide some more info.

    Is your department in favor of it or not?

    Does the Rescue Squad want it or not?

    Are they a separate organization?

    Are you both toned out for accidents?

    Who is the IC? (I know the answer, but need to make the point)

    Is your department in favor of it or not?
    ANSWER. Yes we are in favor of it. Remember you are dealing with vehicles that have many risk of fire in working order let alone when destroyed and crushed together. They are working with the nothing has ever happened here yet.. The EMS i work with have that thought but don't inter fear with fire dept's SOP's. My favorite saying. “i work in a world of the unknown and unexpected. Sadly enough with complacent people.” You can use that if you like lol. So you pull a line how does that effect them??

    Does the Rescue Squad want it or not?
    ANSWER. No one has complained about it one way or the other. It is a protection resource for them as well as everyone else. How many of us have seen a car on fire of soon involved once we arrive?? not often but I've seen several enough to pull the line.

    Are they a separate organization?
    ANSWER. The area i am involved in is mostly private EMS. There are some that run ambo's around the county i am in. dday05 may shed light on how they run he is in the county i am in as well.

    Are you both toned out for accidents?
    ANSWER. Sadly no we get the call after they are there realizing they need more help and needed it when they got there. Or we have the pd call us to assist with traffic control. And find we need to assist in more ways.

    Who is the IC? (I know the answer, but need to make the point)
    ANSWER. Dont know where you are in this world however in Ohio the Fire Officer is responsible for all life safety issues. Lucky for us i dont think i have ever seen this turn into a ****ing match. We all work well together. Lucky for them or they would accidentally get wet lol just kidding. Why not have the officers sit down with the supervisors for the ambos and see what can be worked out. Sounds like a relationship issues to me could be wrong.
    Training does not make perfect. Training makes permanent!

    IACOJ probie

  5. #5
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    we are the fire dept and are in favor of the line. the rescue squad chief is an assistant chief in the fire dept and does not want the line. we are toned out together. rescue squad is ic.

    i need nfpa or ifsta on paper to force them for safety reasons

  6. #6
    Forum Member Bones42's Avatar
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    Never bothered to look at any codes/standards/laws/etc other than our own common sense. My EMS agency performs extrication, not my FD (thought that MAY be changing). Their protocol is that no cutting/spreading gets done without FD on scene. FD IC will decide on whether the line is pulled and charged or not based on what is actually getting done. We don't always pull a line and charge/man it, sometimes we just stand by with extinguishers. But, when we do pull a line, it's a foam capable line.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

  7. #7
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    Not to trivialize your question but why is this even an issue? It's a safety issue that is designed to protect ALL the responders on scene. If the fire officer is in command, then the "private EMS" should have nothing to say - they're not the ones stretching/repacking the line, pumping the engine or flowing water (or wearing proper PPE presumably) so what's their beef? They'd be the first ones to bi@#h if something happened and a line wasn't in place to protect them...last time I checked, BDU pants & short sleeve polo shirts didn't provide appropriate flash fire protection.

    Just my 2 cents...pull your line, protect the brothers and let the waaambulance personnel treat the pt. instead of trying to run the scene...Stay Safe...

  8. #8
    Forum Member MemphisE34a's Avatar
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    Very few cars involved in accidents catch fire. Having said that, the potential I suppose is there and our policy is to have a charged line at extrications as well.

    Depending on your manpower, I am not sure if I would dedicate the manpower to stand there and hold it. If you have plenty of folks, sure. If not, being charged and in the immediate vicinity should suffice.
    RK
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    Management is making sure things are done right. Leadership is doing the right thing. The fire service needs alot more leaders and a lot less managers.

    "Everyone goes home" is the mantra for the pussification of the modern, American fire service.


    Comments made are my own. They do not represent the official position or opinion of the Fire Department or the City for which I am employed. In fact, they are normally exactly the opposite.

  9. #9
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    ............................
    Last edited by kuntrykid; 09-10-2008 at 10:35 PM. Reason: Don't want to be a member of these forums, so I deleted my posts.
    My comments do NOT necessarily reflect the opinions of my department, my fellow volunteers, or anyone else with whom I am associated.

  10. #10
    Forum Member Bones42's Avatar
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    NFPA makes standards, not regulations/laws.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

  11. #11
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    The NFPA mandates a charged line at all auto extrication scenes. And as Bones points out they do not regulate. But in this day and time of insurance companys trying to not pay on claims, this would be a great excuse not to pay. Accident scene catches fire rescuers hurt and no line charged as NFPA saftey standards state. ALL CLAIMS DENIED! Now lets look at why we didnt have it? Most likely just lazzzzzzzzy, come on guys its safety... Joe try NFPA 1670 I think it is in there, if not let me know and I will try to research my files.

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    I'd be interested in hearing the rescue squad's side. Why are they against having the charged line?

    A neighboring department had a car catch fire on them about a year ago, so it can happen.

    Another reason that I like to put a line on the ground is that if a line is deployed, it becomes a fire department scene as opposed to a sheriff / state police scene, at least in Maryland.

  13. #13
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    med it was not in nfpa 1670.

    the chief of the rescue squad is a controll freak and because he looses overall command when a line is pulled he does not want the line.in our county once fire pulls a line they automaticly take over all command but the rescue side becomes a branch. the reasoning behind this was that all firefighters can do rescue due to ff2,3 requirements, but rescue are just trained in rescue.

  14. #14
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    a very real need for charged line durning extrication: these days vehicles there may be 12 volt batteries in trunk or under real seat, the cables may run through the rocker panel. My dept had an extrication a few years ago on an SUV with a second battery in the trunk, soneone cut into the rocker and through the cable & a fuel line, starting a fire under the patient, which was put out quickly by the crew manning the charged 1 1/2 line. Yes charge a line at all exrications!
    George

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    My question is are you talking about every time you use the tools or just larger jobs. We are like bones if were only popping a door with no other hazards you get an extinguisher, if you are going to take the roof with fluids everywhere then you get speedi-dry a foam line.

    The only things I can think of off the top of my head is considering extrication a potentiel IDLH environment, in which case where is your SCBA?

    If the rescue chief is only an AC where is the guy with 5 bugles setting him straight. This shouldn't be a discussion you and the rescue chief if he wants to keep his job work for the chief if he says MVCs get a line then they get a line.

    In the end it comes down to common sense and SAFETY, Everybody has to go home from the call.

  16. #16
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    Here is the problem . I am A iaff member of 10 years vollying in my home town 45 min from my full time job as a firefighter/emt . the chief is to nice of a guy to tell any one anything.the assistant chief thinks he is the chief he has no qualifications not even state cert in rescue.

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    Fuel lines can run along side a rocker channel not through them.
    You would not be able to repair them if that was the case, and if a leak occured due to corrision or breach, you would now have a rocker channel full of fuel.
    It would not pass The FMVSS side impact test very well.....
    Don't get me wrong, they run very close to the rockers, and very easy to still cut through with tools so you need to be careful and have a look where you are making cuts.
    Also be mindful when cutting into lower A-pillars for relief cuts, some car companies choose this location to run the fuel lines to the engine compartment, Older stlye Hondas 78-93 run the fuel lines inside along the rocker under the carpet covered by a plastic sheath then up the lower A-pillar and into the engine area.

    Just some food for thought..... sorry for the rant

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    Our department SOG dictates that we stretch a charged and staffed line at extrications. Other departments in the area use an ABC extinguisher and consider it adequate protection. My preference is for a charged foam line.

  19. #19
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    In NFPA 1006 - Chapter 6

    6-1.6 Establish fire protection, given an extrication incident and fire control support, so that fire and explosion potential is managed and fire hazards and rescue objectives are communicated to the fire support team.

    Joe still looking for more as NFPA cross references in several areas and time issues on my side. By this as I read it "...given an extrication incident and fire control support, so that fire and explosion potential is managed..." Any potential needs to be addressed, I would hope we in the fire service are not addressing things just by noting a fire may break out.

  20. #20
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    NFPA 1670 - Chapter 8 Vehicle and Machinery Search and Rescue
    8.3 Operations Level.

    8.3.1 Organizations operating at the operations level for vehicle and machinery emergencies shall meet the requirements specified in Sections 8.2 and 8.3.

    8.3.2 All members of the organization shall meet the requirements of Chapter 5 of NFPA 472, Standard for Professional Competence of Responders to Hazardous Materials Incidents.

    8.3.3 The organization shall have members capable of recognizing hazards, using equipment, and implementing techniques necessary to operate safely and effectively at incidents involving persons injured or entrapped in a vehicle or machinery.

    8.3.4 Organizations operating at the operations level for vehicle and machinery emergencies shall develop and implement procedures for the following:

    (1)* Sizing up existing and potential conditions at vehicle and machinery search and rescue incidents

    (2) Identifying probable victim locations and survivability

    (3)* Making the search and rescue area safe, including the stabilization and isolation (e.g., lockout/tagout) of all vehicles or machinery involved

    (4) Identifying, containing, and stopping fuel release

    (5) Protecting a victim during extrication or disentanglement

    (6) The packaging of a victim prior to extrication or disentanglement

    (7) Accessing victims trapped in a vehicle or machinery

    (8)* Performing extrication and disentanglement operations involving packaging, treating, and removing victims trapped in vehicles or machinery through the use of hand and power tools

    (9)* Mitigating and managing general and specific hazards (i.e., fires and explosions) associated with vehicle and machinery search and rescue incidents

    (10) Procuring and utilizing the resources necessary to conduct vehicle and machinery search and rescue operations

    (11) Maintaining control of traffic at the scene of vehicle and machinery search and rescue incidents

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