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  1. #1
    Forum Member Rescue2947's Avatar
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    Default House Fire strategy scenario 1

    Well guys if participation is very active and some good debates on tactics is worth the time I will create more fires like this. I will be picking random pictures of house's or commercial buildings and adding fire and smoke for us to debate or give your tactics on. If anybody has pictures of something they would like to see or used, let me know.

    Anyways here is scenario 1
    We have a 2 story single family dwelling. In a hydrant area.

    Available units are:
    2 Engine's
    1 Truck
    1 Rescue
    1 command vehicle.

    To set the stage, its Sunday at 11:15am. There is a structure within 50 feet on the "B" side, there is a South wind at 10mph. The picture shown below is looking North.
    Pere Marquette Fire Department
    "First in Last Out Crew"
    Engine 2911


  2. #2
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    Rescue profile is low. Fire appears somewhat contained above the garage in an "attic" space.

    1st engine stretch a line to the front door and hit the fire with the 300 gpm deck gun for about a min. Line can be advanced through the house to the garage door to make sure there is no extension into the house

    1st truck company, inside team primary search, outside team makes an opening in the garage door and throws ladders for egress.

    Rescue company will operate as an augmented truck company ,goto the nozzle and open up and search for extension with the hoseline.

    2nd engine to foward lay a line from the hydrant.

  3. #3
    Forum Member KEEPBACK200FEET's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LeatherHed4Life View Post
    Rescue profile is low. Fire appears somewhat contained above the garage in an "attic" space.

    1st engine stretch a line to the front door and hit the fire with the 300 gpm deck gun for about a min. Line can be advanced through the house to the garage door to make sure there is no extension into the house

    1st truck company, inside team primary search, outside team makes an opening in the garage door and throws ladders for egress.

    Rescue company will operate as an augmented truck company ,goto the nozzle and open up and search for extension with the hoseline.

    2nd engine to foward lay a line from the hydrant.

    Upon entry in the garage, if possible I would size up the celling to see if it's a finished ceiling or open ceiling. I would also make note of the presence of a bonus room above the garage, if there was was one, and be looking for a way to access it as you might have to hit it from there.

    ****************************** **************
    Wait, I do not agree hitting it with a deck gun from the outside. I'd rather let it burn while the line was being flaked than hit it with a deck gun and compromise pushing it back through the house, potentially on victims if said bonus room exists.
    Last edited by KEEPBACK200FEET; 04-20-2008 at 02:28 AM. Reason: I overlooked a tactic that I didn't agree with.
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  4. #4
    Forum Member GreenJT's Avatar
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    Engine 1- attack line through the house to stop the fire in the garage from the unburnt side. Preferably laying LDH.

    Engine 2- water supply if needed. Establish command until relieved by DC. Exposures--If I read correctly there is a exposure on the Bravo side ( which would possibly be close to the garage). If not pull a back up line to the garage door.

    Truck 1- Force garage door, check extension starting close to where the garage and inside of the house come in contact( most likely close to E-1attack).

    Rescue1- search/check for extension in upper floors

    DC- establish a game plan based on initial command, while monitoring on scene units. Face to face and take command.
    Last edited by jgreenpbgfr; 04-19-2008 at 04:23 PM.
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    9-11-01, 06-18-07, and all those who have given the extreme sacrifice RFB.

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    I like most of what I've read so I won't repeat much. I'd add that I'd like the first line inside to just maintain the garage/house door if its intact and let the main attack of the fire proceed directly into the garage through an outside door or the front. This would protect any potential smoke and heat damage from entering the house given it looks new enough to have been built code compliant with a 1 hour fire separation.

  6. #6
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    1st due engine : Lay out from the hydrant to establish your water supply , stretch an 1 3/4" line inside , locate the interior garage door , close interior garage door if open and HOLD that position.

    1st due truck : Force / open the garage door , primary search

    2nd due engine : Stretch either an 1 3/4" or a 2 1/2" line to the garage door and knock the fire.

    Rescue : Wipe some soot on their face , rub against some walls to get dirty and then tell everyone how much work they did.

  7. #7
    Forum Member FWDbuff's Avatar
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    One of my very first fires on a line was a situation almost identical to this. I wont get into specific company assignments.....Advance a 2" line (1.75" or what have you....) into the interior of the home. (I would be hesitant to knock it from the exterior for fear of pushing fire into the home.)
    Have Truck Company start opening up the windows, and blast it from the house side. Hopefully the "C" label (20 minute rated) door is still intact and holding when you get to it. K/D the bulk of the fire and get in there fast with hooks to open up walls and ceiling. Get that overhead garage door down, too, before it falls down and hurts someone.

    Rescue and/or the Truck should, of course, handle the primary and secure the electrical panel in an orderly, efficient military manner.

    Points to remember:

    -Many communities have adopted ordinances going above the IRC, mandating two layers of 5/8" type X GWB on ceilings of garages with living space above. Be prepared to work a little harder!

    -Be sure to check for hidden fire in walls around electrical outlets and switches that may be in the same stud bays as boxes on the living space side of the wall.

    -Be sure to check for fire around other penetrations of the walls, such as central vacuum system lines/hoses, drain lines from washer pans (many laundry rooms next to garages will dump the washer pan right into the garage, even though it is a code violation, same thing with the central vacuum system....Unless the penetrations are properly protected....)

    -If there are autos in the garage, and you have the manpower, consider advancing a deuce and a half! If there is extremely heavy fire involvement, be very cautious- 99% of attached garages have either a steel beam or lambeam/paralam/psl or whatever engineered lumber beam that could possibly have been comprimised in the fire. Check the lally columns.

    -And lastly, be wary of trusses goes without saying!
    "Loyalty Above all Else. Except Honor."

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    Engine 1 - Lasso hydrant. Stretch 1 3/4 line thru front door, ensure entry door is closed. Quick Primary of 1st floor, does not appear to have any smoke / fire inside of the living area of the structure. Check for extension / potential extension with TIC.

    Truck 1 - Check for access to the garage from the rear. If none, force garage door to give access for hand-lines & conduct primary of 2nd floor and basement. As soon as there is a good knock on the fire PPV for any smoke in the residence.


    Engine 2 - Leave hydrant guy to finish hydrant. Make a 100' 2.5" line then attack fire through garage door access that Truck 1 has opened, class A foam if you've got it. Hydrant pull 1 3/4" hand-line when he gets to the fire, hit any remaining visible fire from the outside, cool the roof & area where house hooks to garage.

    Rescue - RIT

    BC1 - If life safety issue or there is extension into the residence strike a second alarm. Potential to make a good stop on the fire and limit property damage if aggressive tactics are employed quickly. If he gets behind the fire curve chasing extension, there is a fair chance that it will end up a smoking hole in the ground.

  9. #9
    MembersZone Subscriber fireslayer1237's Avatar
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    first let me start by saying on each rig in my dept we only have 2 guys the driver/operator and an LT. so my response will be using our staffing levels.

    my size up would be E1 arriving 2 story medium residential flames from garage initiating and transitional. I would also ask for an additional engine because I will need more man power

    with our staffing levels alot of the time we need to put water on the fire from a defensive position aggressivly which means any way possible. with our nozzles on the 1.75" preconnects i can flow 200 gpm. this can put out a lot of fire. we carry 750 gallons on our engines. I would tell my driver to pull a preconnect to the windows on the A side of the garage while I do my 360.

    after the 360 is completed I would go around to the front and instruct E2 to lay in wet from the hydrant to establish supply. instruct driver to pull second line to front door while I was putting water with a straight stream into the overhead through the open windows. we also have foam on our engines which in most cases I would probably be able to knock down the majority of this fire before second in even had water supply established. If I use a straight stream I prevent air movement that a fog pattern would keeping it from spreading fire.

    once water supply was established instruct E2 to make entry and go to the garage from the interior. Establish command name it and place it in front of E1

    direct truck 1 to go do a primary search floor 1 and 2 and check for extension into the house. instruct Rescue 1 to establish RIT.

    this would be a pretty easy fire wouldn't take much water if you could knock it down quickly and then check for extension. as long as you don't get behind the 8 ball.
    Last edited by fireslayer1237; 04-20-2008 at 03:33 PM.
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  10. #10
    Forum Member nmfire's Avatar
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    Fire appears to be contained to the ground level and attic of the garage. Lets keep it that way.

    Engine 1: Forward lay in from somewhere functional depending on water supply location. We don't have those hydrant things so whatever you do with them, do it. Park in front of the lawn so the ladder can take the driveway.

    First 1.75" attack line to enter the garage via the interior of the home. Someone bust out those two garage windows prior to making entry. Put out the fire on the ground level and start pulling the ceiling.

    Engine 2: Probably not much to do. Its a garage fire that will probably be on its way out by the time they arrive. Take a 2.5" backup line and standby at the front door.

    Ladder 1: Take the driveway and ladder the roof of the garage. Do your thing.

    Rescue 1: Probably very little to do since it is contained to the garage. If the occupant status is unknown, the primary search should be very fast since the fire isn't in the house yet.

    Command: Be command.
    Last edited by nmfire; 04-20-2008 at 04:47 PM.
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  11. #11
    Forum Member Dave1983's Avatar
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    First engine pulls past (leave room for the truck) and takes an 1 3/4" through the front door and around to the garage. 2nd engine is water supply. 5" LDH either reverse lay to or forward lay from the hydrant depending on location. Rest of crew interior search of house. Next due, either truck or rescue, pulls second line off 1st engine and assists with interior opps, pulling ceilings, etc. Which ever rig shows up last is RIT.

    Put fire out, go home.

    Had one like it just the other day. Same general procedures, except the truck (quint) was first in, rescue took utilities and PPV and we had a 3rd engine for RIT. Put out fire, went home.
    Last edited by Dave1983; 04-20-2008 at 05:39 PM.
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  12. #12
    Forum Member MemphisE34a's Avatar
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    For the record, we ride with 4 man companies.

    Looking at the roof line above the garage, there is no room for any finished space above it. This is therefore little more than a realtively small attic fire.

    Most likely sceanrio here:

    1st engine would stretch preconnect through the front door and go to the garage. A little ceiling would be pulled or the sheet rock would come down with a little work from a solid bore or straight stream nozzle. The fire would be quickly extinguished with most likely less than 50 gallons of water.

    The second engine would be laying a supply line, but would quickly be told they could hold tight - don't charge it. Officer and nozzle man would work on primary.

    Truck would split: Inside would either help with primary or help 1st engine. Maybe both. Outside would control utilities and set up the fan, then enter to help where needed.

    Rescue would be disregarded or hold fast in front yard.

    Chief would be disregarded or have command for about 5-10 minutes before leaving.

    I don't get the combined attack recommendations - in fact, combing interior and exterior operations is a violation of the very basic core principle's of firefighting. Either commit to the fire and go inside with the intent of putting it out OR don't for whatever reason - maybe lack of manpower or the fire looking extra scary - and stay outside to blast it with the deck gun or some high gpm line as some have suggested, but not both.
    Last edited by MemphisE34a; 04-20-2008 at 06:03 PM.
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    "Everyone goes home" is the mantra for the pussification of the modern, American fire service.


    Comments made are my own. They do not represent the official position or opinion of the Fire Department or the City for which I am employed. In fact, they are normally exactly the opposite.

  13. #13
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    Just my thought but here goes.

    1st enigne 2 1/2 leader tip to 1 3/4 led out. Officer pokes their head inside and checks to see if the entry door has held and what the interior conditions are before committing to inside of house.

    Truck gets the overhead door down and assists the engine.

    2nd engine Leads out 2nd 2 1/2 leader line and by then gets report from 1st engine so they can either attack from the outside of the garage or join as the 2nd line after the truck removes the door.

    Rescue What ever they think needs to be done like check the interior of the house for extension, primary search or assist the truck company.

    IC just listen to the reports and say OK.

    As long as the man door has held why would you go and open it since all its going to do is make things worse by allowing the smoke and heat to enter the inside of the house as opposed to it just being a garage fire.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MemphisE34a View Post
    For the record, we ride with 4 man companies.

    Looking at the roof line above the garage, there is no room for any finished space above it. This is therefore little more than a realtively small attic fire.

    Most likely sceanrio here:

    1st engine would stretch preconnect through the front door and go to the garage. A little ceiling would be pulled or the sheet rock would come down with a little work from a solid bore or straight stream nozzle. The fire would be quickly extinguished with most likely less than 50 gallons of water.

    The second engine would be laying a supply line, but would quickly be told they could hold tight - don't charge it. Officer and nozzle man would work on primary.

    Truck would split: Inside would either help with primary or help 1st engine. Maybe both. Outside would control utilities and set up the fan, then enter to help where needed.

    Rescue would be disregarded or hold fast in front yard.

    Chief would be disregarded or have command for about 5-10 minutes before leaving.

    I don't get the combined attack recommendations - in fact, combing interior and exterior operations is a violation of the very basic core principle's of firefighting. Either commit to the fire and go inside with the intent of putting it out OR don't for whatever reason - maybe lack of manpower or the fire looking extra scary - and stay outside to blast it with the deck gun or some high gpm line as some have suggested, but not both.
    I'll go with this, but have either the outside truck team or the squad take out the windows in the garage.

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    MembersZone Subscriber fireslayer1237's Avatar
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    why can't I knock down the fire from the exterior while waiting for my second in. I don't have 2 in 2 out and nothing that shows me to break it for rescue. I may be waiting anywhere from 2 min. up to 10 min. depending on my area for second in to show up. if I stand around waiting to make entry at the front door like text book the fire will grow and spread into the house.

    what would you do in my case waiting for my addtional man power to arrive to not break any laws.
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    Forum Member MemphisE34a's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by somebody509 View Post
    I'll go with this, but have either the outside truck team or the squad take out the windows in the garage.
    That would most likely get done, but if all of the fire is in the attic it may or may not help that much - but good point. Certainly wouldn't hurt in this case.
    Last edited by MemphisE34a; 04-20-2008 at 07:44 PM.
    RK
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    Management is making sure things are done right. Leadership is doing the right thing. The fire service needs alot more leaders and a lot less managers.

    "Everyone goes home" is the mantra for the pussification of the modern, American fire service.


    Comments made are my own. They do not represent the official position or opinion of the Fire Department or the City for which I am employed. In fact, they are normally exactly the opposite.

  17. #17
    Forum Member MemphisE34a's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fireslayer1237 View Post
    why can't I knock down the fire from the exterior while waiting for my second in. I don't have 2 in 2 out and nothing that shows me to break it for rescue. I may be waiting anywhere from 2 min. up to 10 min. depending on my area for second in to show up. if I stand around waiting to make entry at the front door like text book the fire will grow and spread into the house.

    what would you do in my case waiting for my addtional man power to arrive to not break any laws.
    Slayer,

    I am blessed with both good staffing and multiple resources. I never(I broke my own rule and said never) have to worry about not having enough people to meet and 2 in / 2 out requirement - even though I personally disagree with this tactic and logic.

    At any rate, I don't think anyone said to completely abandon hitting it from the exterior. In your situation, if you think knocking it down from the outside is best, go ahead. What I don't get is the people that are condoning sending people in the front door with one line and hitting the garage from the exterior with another.
    RK
    cell #901-494-9437

    Management is making sure things are done right. Leadership is doing the right thing. The fire service needs alot more leaders and a lot less managers.

    "Everyone goes home" is the mantra for the pussification of the modern, American fire service.


    Comments made are my own. They do not represent the official position or opinion of the Fire Department or the City for which I am employed. In fact, they are normally exactly the opposite.

  18. #18
    Forum Member GreenJT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MemphisE34a View Post
    Slayer,

    I am blessed with both good staffing and multiple resources. I never(I broke my own rule and said never) have to worry about not having enough people to meet and 2 in / 2 out requirement - even though I personally disagree with this tactic and logic.

    At any rate, I don't think anyone said to completely abandon hitting it from the exterior. In your situation, if you think knocking it down from the outside is best, go ahead. What I don't get is the people that are condoning sending people in the front door with one line and hitting the garage from the exterior with another.
    I ask this with gaining insite and knowledge in mind. What is wrong(if it is) with attacking the fire from the inside and outside so long the lines dont cross or put interior attack at risk?
    Last edited by jgreenpbgfr; 04-20-2008 at 08:55 PM.
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  19. #19
    Forum Member Rescue2947's Avatar
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    Yea I agree that if the first due engine doesnt have the man power, that hitting it from the outside for now may cool it down, and show owners/neighbors your making some effort. In that case tho, maybe you could open or K12 the Garage open and hit it better from the door? Untill your man power got there.

    When I created the fire, I picked this house for the new construction. With fire codes nowadays there should be a fire break in the garage. That would allow you more time and be able to attack from the garage.

    As for me and my Department, First due would enter house and do primary search of the house. This shouldnt be a long task as it looks as the fire is contained to the garage, if there isnt smoke in the house or at least LDH they would Grab the pipe and make there way to the garage door from inside the house.. 2nd Due would would lay water supply just in case. Rescue would fill Air tanks I mean set up for RIT, and truck would open and vent if nessesary, after taking out utilitys.
    Pere Marquette Fire Department
    "First in Last Out Crew"
    Engine 2911

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by fireslayer1237 View Post
    why can't I knock down the fire from the exterior while waiting for my second in. I don't have 2 in 2 out and nothing that shows me to break it for rescue. I may be waiting anywhere from 2 min. up to 10 min. depending on my area for second in to show up. if I stand around waiting to make entry at the front door like text book the fire will grow and spread into the house.

    what would you do in my case waiting for my addtional man power to arrive to not break any laws.
    You have to weigh the effects of letting it burn vs. hitting it from the exterior and pushing it back through the house. I guess in an extreme situation like this, then you are probably going to lose the house anyway.
    Just know, I chose my own fate. I drove by the fork in the road and went straight.

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