1. #26
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    forget it, no point in arguing! These forums are pretty much useless!
    Last edited by wilson10; 05-07-2008 at 09:51 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by wilson10 View Post
    As for RFD throwing brothers under the bus, IMO being an explorer doesn't warrant a brother to me. If you are not an explorer any more I apologize in advance, but I have read several things you have posted over time and just have to shake my head sometimes!
    How exactly did he throw anyone under the bus? He asked a question, and a legitimate one at that. You answered it, so you can stop there.

    Just because he's an Explorer doesn't mean he can't ask questions. I will guarantee you, he's not the only one that's asked that same question. My whole crew wondered why they were running two trucks, one of them a ladder, to a vehicle fire. Kudos for him for realizing there's a potential problem and questioning it. Good for you for giving him an answer, even if you felt the need to belittle him.

    To be honest, I've got several questions myself. Why was the driver going fast enough to push the van 300+ feet and split a utility pole in half in a 25 mph zone? Why didn't she stop at the intersection, which was a four-way stop? Did she verify every vehicle at the intersection saw/heard the apparatus before she entered traffic? I'll stop there, but there are many, many more.

    Our duty is to protect and preserve life and property, not take it. Anytime we kill one of our own or a citizen, we should be asking "why?" We should be evaluating our procedures and changing them accordingly.

    When you get a chance, visit this website and take a look at the headlines. See how many times we kill the people we're supposed to be protecting. See how often we're getting prosecuted for it. See how often our employers are paying out settlements. Then, take a look at how many of these incidents are occurring at intersections and how many times the fire apparatus busted a red light or stop sign.

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    How exactly did he throw anyone under the bus? He asked a question, and a legitimate one at that. You answered it, so you can stop there.
    "I don't understand why car fires warrant a stupid response like this." is what he posted. What are all the circumstances? I would bet they where not known at this point
    Just because he's an Explorer doesn't mean he can't ask questions. I will guarantee you, he's not the only one that's asked that same question. My whole crew wondered why they were running two trucks, one of them a ladder, to a vehicle fire. Kudos for him for realizing there's a potential problem and questioning it. Good for you for giving him an answer, even if you felt the need to belittle him.
    Maybe the engine was out? Or maybe that is their SOP's? We run a truck and an engine to car fire, engine to extinguish, truck for a possible rescue or to cut the hood or trunk if it's well involved.
    To be honest, I've got several questions myself. Why was the driver going fast enough to push the van 300+ feet and split a utility pole in half in a 25 mph zone? Why didn't she stop at the intersection, which was a four-way stop? Did she verify every vehicle at the intersection saw/heard the apparatus before she entered traffic? I'll stop there, but there are many, many more.
    Are you sure the driver was going that fast? What makes you so sure the operator was capable of stopping the rig after the accident? Did you read that this was the 2nd rig through the intersection, which was fully controlled by the first?
    Our duty is to protect and preserve life and property, not take it. Anytime we kill one of our own or a citizen, we should be asking "why?" We should be evaluating our procedures and changing them accordingly.
    Exactly, that's why there is accident reconstruction experts. Not a bunch of armchair quarterbacks to help with this evaluation
    When you get a chance, visit this website and take a look at the headlines. See how many times we kill the people we're supposed to be protecting. See how often we're getting prosecuted for it. See how often our employers are paying out settlements. Then, take a look at how many of these incidents are occurring at intersections and how many times the fire apparatus busted a red light or stop sign.
    Like I said, I will wait until the FULL report comes out.
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    You know my last shift we responded to a medical call. The call was a green response call. We were sitting at a light (which was red) and a person driving a van came zipping through the intersection turning in front of us. From the time I saw him (which I was driving the engine) and my Cap saw this person they had their head down the whole time texting on ther goddamned phone. If this was an actual call the idiot probably would've hit us if we were running red and that would include making sure the intersection which is blind was clear. There are drivers out there everywhere that should pay attention to driving and not talking on their phone or texting on it. Almost every car you pass the driver is on the phone.

    And as for some of the publics comments, we all know how reliable some of the stuff they say is right?

    So with that said I will keep reading the news articles and see what becomes of this situation. I think no matter what the outcome is this will stick in the back of our minds of all of us when responding to the next call any of us go to. Be safe!

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    Quote Originally Posted by SPFDRum View Post
    Like I said, I will wait until the FULL report comes out.
    I guess the "stupid" part of that question slipped right by me when I read it. I'll agree, that's out of line, but I still think the heart of the question is still a legitimate one. Perhaps they respond as you do, perhaps it's because a structure was threatened, there's several different possibilities.

    Waiting until the full report to come out is fine, but there's still no reason not to ask questions. Questioning and asking questions are a bit different and there are many in these forums that don't know the difference.

    When I was at work yesterday and we saw this incident on the news channel, the entire crew talked for quite a while about our protocols and what we do to prevent that very type of accident. We turned what's a tragic situation into a learning tool for myself, the engineer, and the two firefighters/aspiring engineers. That kind of questioning is what I refer to and is actually constructive.

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    That Catch I agree with you a 100% on: discussing it in the house with your crew. That is a venue that allows us to take a good hard look into what happened and how we can prevent it from happening to us. And frankly, we have earned the right to ask those tough questions amongst ourselves.
    I get a little leery on these public forums do to the number of posers out there just looking for some dirt.
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    Quote Originally Posted by SPFDRum View Post
    That Catch I agree with you a 100% on: discussing it in the house with your crew. That is a venue that allows us to take a good hard look into what happened and how we can prevent it from happening to us. And frankly, we have earned the right to ask those tough questions amongst ourselves.
    I get a little leery on these public forums do to the number of posers out there just looking for some dirt.
    Great point brought up by you and Catch. There is no sense trying to pick apart this incident until the investigation is complete. However, you can take the facts of this incident as we understand them (bad collision at a 4 way stop) and discuss with the guys where there may be similar intersections or other problem intersections in your response area. You can reinforce the SOP's for responding. You can review the basics of safe operation of the apparatus. You can discuss the relationship between weight/speed/stopping distance. You can discuss proper attitude behind the wheel. You can discuss a dozen other things.

    Its not throwing anyone under the bus if the incident sparks a meaningful dialogue and attitude check in your firehouse.
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    Quote Originally Posted by JHR1985 View Post
    where is Lafireeducator to bash the fire department and its drivers for not doing it the way his does?
    He's over on the Crusty site being "honest". In other words, he threw the FF under the bus. It is typical.
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    Honestly, I'm all in favor of removing and outlawing 4 way stops. You end up with 4 vehicles sitting there looking at each other trying to figure out who goes first.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

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    Ok, after reading the posters upset with me, I didn't realize what I had written.

    Just two weeks ago I attended a Firefighters Scared Straight Presentation put on by none other than Chief Billy Goldfeder. And it sure as s*** scared me.

    By stupid response, I meant not the fact that they roll a ladder truck. Who I am to sit here and judge someone's response protocol? I mean a stupid response because it sounded like, from interviews, articles, and other sources I have, that these guys were full out trucking to go to this car fire. Before seeing Chief Goldfeder's class I probably would have thought otherwise, but he showed us some videos and talked to us and this makes alot of sense (at least to me). Its a car fire. You're not gonna save the car. And ESPECIALLY if you aren't the first due truck (I wish i could find the video he showed for this) why should you be going balls to the wall to this car fire. Whether it is down a residential street or the interstate, no need to be needlessly taking risks.

    And if it is true that they were responding to a car fire with a potential exposure problem, then I probably would not have been so uptight about the way the response seems to have been handled. And I know that, around here at least, just because one truck clears the intersection doesn't mean that the other doesn't at least have to slow down to make sure that all the vehicles see him as well. How many times have we read articles or stories about multiple apparatus traveling lights and sirens to a call and when the first truck goes by, joe schmo civilian either pulls back into the lane of traffic, or goes through the light.

    Hope that clears things up a bit. I was not trying to be a smart ***** at all, just posing what I thought to be an intelligent question, when it actually was not.
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    FOUND IT FINALLY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


    ..and after problems uploading it to youtube, here it is.......

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    This thread is not about driving recklessly, its about Chief Goldfelder and its not about videos. It is about a horrible collision in which many lives were ruined. In your response, you showed immaturity, a lack of class and a lack of compassion in addition to grandstanding in a case where the investigation is not close to being over (ie: we don't know any facts).

    You've got alot of growing up to do.
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  13. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by GeorgeWendtCFI View Post
    This thread is not about driving recklessly, its about Chief Goldfelder and its not about videos. It is about a horrible collision in which many lives were ruined. In your response, you showed immaturity, a lack of class and a lack of compassion in addition to grandstanding in a case where the investigation is not close to being over (ie: we don't know any facts).

    You've got alot of growing up to do.
    Please sir, show me where I showed a lack of class or compassion. I brought Chief Goldfeder into this thread beacuse he brought up a very valid point in his class.

    Here are quotes of every piece of my opinion that I have added to this thread minus the thread about Chief G's presentation and the video post....

    I don't understand why car fires warrant a stupid response like this. Kinda reminds me of the video of the second due engine going to the car fire who decides to go against traffic during rush hour and instead of waiting for the cars to totally get out of his way, he just scrapes up the sides.

    May the vic's RIP and the brothers get well soon.
    I am very curious as to whether the apparatus was stopping at stop signs and lights. The way the articles are written it doesnt seem so, but that it just the way the media has written it up.
    I was refrencing the fact that people freak out for car fires. I'm not saying anything about sending a stick. I don't know their protocols. Maybe it was a quint? I don't know.

    From those videos, it did look like that might have been a three way stop. My mom goes through that intersection quite regularly or work but from the same direction as the van.
    I thought the same thing. No words can describe.
    Please show me where I had no concern or compassion for the victims. I am only a few hours drive from there and it is an absolutely horrific tragedy.

    And at least the way that I, and a few others I know pretty well on here see it, I totally agree that we should wait until the full report comes out. See below quotes for reference:

    I am very curious as to whether the apparatus was stopping at stop signs and lights. The way the articles are written it doesn't seem so, but that it just the way the media has written it up.
    I was referencing the fact that people freak out for car fires. I'm not saying anything about sending a stick. I don't know their protocols. Maybe it was a quint? I don't know.

    From those videos, it did look like that might have been a three way stop. My mom goes through that intersection quite regularly or work but from the same direction as the van.
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    Quote Originally Posted by RFRDxplorer View Post
    By stupid response, I meant not the fact that they roll a ladder truck. Who I am to sit here and judge someone's response protocol? I mean a stupid response because it sounded like, from interviews, articles, and other sources I have, that these guys were full out trucking to go to this car fire.
    All the sources I have read haven't been credible. Civilian "Clark" sure doesn't sound credible to me, he sounds confrontational from the get go. They were "barreling" down the street. He said he checked the childs pulse and he had one but he covered him because others told him too. He then went to the engineer and confronted her! Instead of "Oh my god are you ok?", checking on the other members in the apparatus or the driver of the minivan. So far there has been no reliable sources. I'll wait on something much more concrete before throwing opinions out there.

    Very few know if the engineer was operating her apparatus responsibly, yet very many want to criticize.

    This is very tragic. I wish all injured a speedy recovery and may grandfather and grandson rest in peace.

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    Much easier to throw stones and point fingers. Especially when you have never driven an apparatus red lights and siren through urban traffic.
    My posts reflect my views and opinions, not the organization I work for or my IAFF local. Some of which they may not agree. I.A.C.O.J. member
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    RFD, you are right on the money. There is never a need to blast through a stop sign at more than 10 or 15 mph. The fact that the truck pushed the minivan 100 yards (300 feet) and snapped a power pole in the process shows they were doing at least 40 mph. Check it out here http://www.csgnetwork.com/stopdistcalc.html
    Probably going faster than that.

    The fact is this is a very tragic accident that could have been prevented, and probably should have been prevented. We all need to learn from this. Drive with due regard, never assume you have the right of way or that people see you. And drive with the proper response for the incident. As you say, it's a car fire. The car is history by the time you get the call.

    We have this problem a lot with the younger newer guys. It takes time before they learn that just because you have lights, sirens, and a red truck you still can't drive recklessly. Hopefully, many will learn from this horrible incident.

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    So you are going to base the crucifixion of the apparatus operator on on what?
    A web site that admits it's formulas don't take into account vehicle mass? Reaction time? And what about the the friction coefficient? You just plug in the nominal? Guess? If so, what do you base it on. You know the type of tires? Tire wear? Road surface?
    What is your apparatus operating experience?
    You really are a tool.
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  18. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by SPFDRum View Post
    I don't know, what where the circumstances of this car fire. Hell, I've pulled 2 people out of car fires in my career. 1 with bystanders around and 1 with police, neither knew there was anybody in the car.
    Second, from the latest articles, it appears on face value the civilian driver pulled right in front of the apparatus. Add the fact he was reported to be hearing impaired, it's a recipe for disaster.
    Again, throwing "brothers" under the bus with out all the facts.
    My condolences to the bereaved and best wishes for those on the rig for a speedy and full; mental and physical, recovery of this tragedy.
    My thoughts Too.... Thanks.
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    A four way stop and the truck still pushed the vehicle a hundred yards after impact? If these are indeed the facts, then I'd wager this D/O is in some big trouble, barring some sort of brake malfunction perhaps...or the accelarator became jammed in some way during the collision.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SPFDRum View Post
    So you are going to base the crucifixion of the apparatus operator on on what?
    A web site that admits it's formulas don't take into account vehicle mass? Reaction time? And what about the the friction coefficient? You just plug in the nominal? Guess? If so, what do you base it on. You know the type of tires? Tire wear? Road surface?
    What is your apparatus operating experience?
    You really are a tool.
    I'm not out to crucify anyone. However, having pushed a minivan 100 yards after impact through a 4-way stop intersection says it all. Remember right of way is given, not taken. You must drive with due regard.

    Obviously it isn't exact. As for Vehicle Mass, Reaction Time, Tires, road conditions; those are all things they operator should consider when operating any kind of motor vehicle. As for the friction coefficient, use the typical .8

    As for operating apparatus, my experience is roughly 40 years worth of driving dump trucks, tractor trailers, fire trucks, cars, motorcycles, military vehicles form the jeep right up to the 10 ton as well as an 8 wheeled amphibious vehicle. That sucker had 4 in the front and 4 in the rear. The tires were about 5 feet tall. Then I have numerous hours logged on fork trucks (not the warehouse variety either) backhoes, bulldozers, and excavators with millions of miles logged. I have been driving emergency equipment for the last 20 years or so.

    My father, my driver ed teacher, the numerous other driving instructors all taught me well. Never assume the other driver sees you. The right of way is given, you don't take it. Matter of fact, the one thing I got out of the EVOC course was that you need to get the apparatus there, it doesn't do any good laying in the ditch, plus it adds to the problem. With the average trip at normal speeds being 10 minutes driving fast and recklessly (not saying that is the case in this instance) will save about 30 seconds.

    Obviously the SP report will tell exactly what happened. Personally, I don't care who was at fault. What I care about is not seeing it happen again. Everyone needs to learn from this.

    Hopefully - this clarifies things for you and satisfies your curiosity. Good day.
    Last edited by ScareCrow57; 05-11-2008 at 11:20 AM.

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    I looked at over 30 pictures of this accident. There are NO SKID MARKS from the ladder truck at all. This tells me the driver was incapacitated in some way upon impact and was therefore unable to apply the brakes. If this is in fact the case, the truck simply coasted to a stop while pushing the van.

    I'd like to think this indicates the truck was going a little slower than it looks since the stopping distance was without brakes.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ScareCrow57 View Post
    blah blah blah
    Good for you buddy, you have operated many different types of heavy equipment, trucks, and machines. I guess that means you were there?

    As nmfire mentioned it is quite possible she was incapacitated. Perhaps there was mechanical trouble with either the brakes not working or the throttle being lodged open.

    Who knows? It's even possible she was having mechanical difficulties BEFORE entering the intersection.

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    As nmfire mentioned it is quite possible she was incapacitated. Perhaps there was mechanical trouble with either the brakes not working or the throttle being lodged open.

    Who knows? It's even possible she was having mechanical difficulties BEFORE entering the intersection.
    Going to throw a bone for thought. Nothing more. Nothing less.

    If in fact the vehicle is found to have developed a mechanical fault, the officer should have been making some form of report (I would think since he as not much else to do except hold on, right? {NO not trying to be funny}).

    If a mech fault with the brakes, its arguable that the driver would have discovered this before the truck even rolled off the apron. However, if it turns out that it was a driver fault, due to lack of attention, meaning that the driver did not do full daily checks then there is a problem.

    I recognize that every state, county, town/city and juristiction has different regulations regarding three axel trucks. In some places a CDL is required, in others, like Fairfax it gets waived. Personally I like the CDL requirement, although again driver training is not the same across the board. What I'm getting at here, is that the ladder truck undoubtably has a fully air operated braking system. My questions are:

    1) were they in full working order and appropriately adjusted?

    2) was the driver qualified to inspect and or adjust as needed?

    3) is it local FD SOP that the Shop is responsible for the brake adjustment/inspection function?

    I ask these questions because (ya here I go again) where I came from any driver who operates an emergency vehicle that has air operated brakes, must attend a 16 hr training session on the air brake system, and be certified to drive with them BEFORE actually operating that vehicle.

    I do possess an air brake endorsement on my civilian licence from British Columbia, however, I do not require it here in Fairfax, because that requirement has been wiaved by DMV.
    Last edited by MalahatTwo7; 05-12-2008 at 03:19 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MalahatTwo7 View Post
    If a mech fault with the brakes, its arguable that the driver would have discovered this before the truck even rolled off the apron. However, if it turns out that it was a driver fault, due to lack of attention, meaning that the driver did not do full daily checks then there is a problem.
    Really just more speculation.

    I have seen apparatus develop brake problems well into a run.

    Mechanical failures happen every day.
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    My questions are
    and sometime soon, an official report will come out after the incident has been fully investigated.


    Until that time, everyone is guessing based on what pictures they see, what experiences they have had, etc.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

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