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  1. #41
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    RFD, you are right on the money. There is never a need to blast through a stop sign at more than 10 or 15 mph. The fact that the truck pushed the minivan 100 yards (300 feet) and snapped a power pole in the process shows they were doing at least 40 mph. Check it out here http://www.csgnetwork.com/stopdistcalc.html
    Probably going faster than that.

    The fact is this is a very tragic accident that could have been prevented, and probably should have been prevented. We all need to learn from this. Drive with due regard, never assume you have the right of way or that people see you. And drive with the proper response for the incident. As you say, it's a car fire. The car is history by the time you get the call.

    We have this problem a lot with the younger newer guys. It takes time before they learn that just because you have lights, sirens, and a red truck you still can't drive recklessly. Hopefully, many will learn from this horrible incident.


  2. #42
    Truckie SPFDRum's Avatar
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    So you are going to base the crucifixion of the apparatus operator on on what?
    A web site that admits it's formulas don't take into account vehicle mass? Reaction time? And what about the the friction coefficient? You just plug in the nominal? Guess? If so, what do you base it on. You know the type of tires? Tire wear? Road surface?
    What is your apparatus operating experience?
    You really are a tool.
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  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by SPFDRum View Post
    I don't know, what where the circumstances of this car fire. Hell, I've pulled 2 people out of car fires in my career. 1 with bystanders around and 1 with police, neither knew there was anybody in the car.
    Second, from the latest articles, it appears on face value the civilian driver pulled right in front of the apparatus. Add the fact he was reported to be hearing impaired, it's a recipe for disaster.
    Again, throwing "brothers" under the bus with out all the facts.
    My condolences to the bereaved and best wishes for those on the rig for a speedy and full; mental and physical, recovery of this tragedy.
    My thoughts Too.... Thanks.
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  4. #44
    Forum Member ThNozzleman's Avatar
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    A four way stop and the truck still pushed the vehicle a hundred yards after impact? If these are indeed the facts, then I'd wager this D/O is in some big trouble, barring some sort of brake malfunction perhaps...or the accelarator became jammed in some way during the collision.

  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by SPFDRum View Post
    So you are going to base the crucifixion of the apparatus operator on on what?
    A web site that admits it's formulas don't take into account vehicle mass? Reaction time? And what about the the friction coefficient? You just plug in the nominal? Guess? If so, what do you base it on. You know the type of tires? Tire wear? Road surface?
    What is your apparatus operating experience?
    You really are a tool.
    I'm not out to crucify anyone. However, having pushed a minivan 100 yards after impact through a 4-way stop intersection says it all. Remember right of way is given, not taken. You must drive with due regard.

    Obviously it isn't exact. As for Vehicle Mass, Reaction Time, Tires, road conditions; those are all things they operator should consider when operating any kind of motor vehicle. As for the friction coefficient, use the typical .8

    As for operating apparatus, my experience is roughly 40 years worth of driving dump trucks, tractor trailers, fire trucks, cars, motorcycles, military vehicles form the jeep right up to the 10 ton as well as an 8 wheeled amphibious vehicle. That sucker had 4 in the front and 4 in the rear. The tires were about 5 feet tall. Then I have numerous hours logged on fork trucks (not the warehouse variety either) backhoes, bulldozers, and excavators with millions of miles logged. I have been driving emergency equipment for the last 20 years or so.

    My father, my driver ed teacher, the numerous other driving instructors all taught me well. Never assume the other driver sees you. The right of way is given, you don't take it. Matter of fact, the one thing I got out of the EVOC course was that you need to get the apparatus there, it doesn't do any good laying in the ditch, plus it adds to the problem. With the average trip at normal speeds being 10 minutes driving fast and recklessly (not saying that is the case in this instance) will save about 30 seconds.

    Obviously the SP report will tell exactly what happened. Personally, I don't care who was at fault. What I care about is not seeing it happen again. Everyone needs to learn from this.

    Hopefully - this clarifies things for you and satisfies your curiosity. Good day.
    Last edited by ScareCrow57; 05-11-2008 at 10:20 AM.

  6. #46
    Forum Member nmfire's Avatar
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    I looked at over 30 pictures of this accident. There are NO SKID MARKS from the ladder truck at all. This tells me the driver was incapacitated in some way upon impact and was therefore unable to apply the brakes. If this is in fact the case, the truck simply coasted to a stop while pushing the van.

    I'd like to think this indicates the truck was going a little slower than it looks since the stopping distance was without brakes.
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  7. #47
    Forum Member edge1317's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ScareCrow57 View Post
    blah blah blah
    Good for you buddy, you have operated many different types of heavy equipment, trucks, and machines. I guess that means you were there?

    As nmfire mentioned it is quite possible she was incapacitated. Perhaps there was mechanical trouble with either the brakes not working or the throttle being lodged open.

    Who knows? It's even possible she was having mechanical difficulties BEFORE entering the intersection.

  8. #48
    MembersZone Subscriber MalahatTwo7's Avatar
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    As nmfire mentioned it is quite possible she was incapacitated. Perhaps there was mechanical trouble with either the brakes not working or the throttle being lodged open.

    Who knows? It's even possible she was having mechanical difficulties BEFORE entering the intersection.
    Going to throw a bone for thought. Nothing more. Nothing less.

    If in fact the vehicle is found to have developed a mechanical fault, the officer should have been making some form of report (I would think since he as not much else to do except hold on, right? {NO not trying to be funny}).

    If a mech fault with the brakes, its arguable that the driver would have discovered this before the truck even rolled off the apron. However, if it turns out that it was a driver fault, due to lack of attention, meaning that the driver did not do full daily checks then there is a problem.

    I recognize that every state, county, town/city and juristiction has different regulations regarding three axel trucks. In some places a CDL is required, in others, like Fairfax it gets waived. Personally I like the CDL requirement, although again driver training is not the same across the board. What I'm getting at here, is that the ladder truck undoubtably has a fully air operated braking system. My questions are:

    1) were they in full working order and appropriately adjusted?

    2) was the driver qualified to inspect and or adjust as needed?

    3) is it local FD SOP that the Shop is responsible for the brake adjustment/inspection function?

    I ask these questions because (ya here I go again) where I came from any driver who operates an emergency vehicle that has air operated brakes, must attend a 16 hr training session on the air brake system, and be certified to drive with them BEFORE actually operating that vehicle.

    I do possess an air brake endorsement on my civilian licence from British Columbia, however, I do not require it here in Fairfax, because that requirement has been wiaved by DMV.
    Last edited by MalahatTwo7; 05-12-2008 at 02:19 PM.
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  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by MalahatTwo7 View Post
    If a mech fault with the brakes, its arguable that the driver would have discovered this before the truck even rolled off the apron. However, if it turns out that it was a driver fault, due to lack of attention, meaning that the driver did not do full daily checks then there is a problem.
    Really just more speculation.

    I have seen apparatus develop brake problems well into a run.

    Mechanical failures happen every day.
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  10. #50
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    My questions are
    and sometime soon, an official report will come out after the incident has been fully investigated.


    Until that time, everyone is guessing based on what pictures they see, what experiences they have had, etc.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

  11. #51
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    As for the "Stupid" response (I believe that has been apologized for) listen to the 911 call and the response here: http://cantonrep.com/audioClip.php?I...nDate2=May2008
    The caller indicates that the car is near a house. Reports stated that the car had rolled near the house after catching fire.
    This is very difficult to listen to. I have never heard the officer of this truck sound like he does after the crash. Please learn from this, and please do not jump to conclusions about this crash. The OSHP is investigating. They are the experts, not us. These firefighters are taking a beating emotionally from the comments on the newspaper website and the coverage of the local media. The local media took no time uncovering an accident the driver had in her personal car. I think most of the coverage in the local media was in very poor taste.

  12. #52
    Forum Member edge1317's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MalahatTwo7 View Post
    Going to throw a bone for thought. Nothing more. Nothing less.
    Absolutely, if it is in fact some mechanical failure it could still be the engineers fault. What I've been getting after is there are a million ways she could not be at fault, there is also a million ways it could be her fault. What ****es me off is there is a number on her that are only exploring the ways that she could be wrong and crucifying her from their computer desk.

  13. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by edge1317 View Post
    Absolutely, if it is in fact some mechanical failure it could still be the engineers fault. What I've been getting after is there are a million ways she could not be at fault, there is also a million ways it could be her fault. What ****es me off is there is a number on her that are only exploring the ways that she could be wrong and crucifying her from their computer desk.
    Exactly, well said Edge. It could have happened to ANY ONE of us. Don't sit there and bull**** yourselves. I guarantee that everyone here can list a close call they have had over the years (with the exception of those commenting that have never driven an emergency apparatus). Now think of that close call and imagine if it wasn't so close!!! Not a pretty site is it?

    You guys throwing my sister under the bus are no brother/sister of mine. And to be quite honest even if it is found to be 100% her fault you STILL do not crucify her, you do what a true brother does, you comfort and help them through a tragedy that NONE of us ever wish to go through. Some of you make me sick!
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  14. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by wilson10 View Post
    Exactly, well said Edge. It could have happened to ANY ONE of us. Don't sit there and bull**** yourselves. I guarantee that everyone here can list a close call they have had over the years (with the exception of those commenting that have never driven an emergency apparatus). Now think of that close call and imagine if it wasn't so close!!! Not a pretty site is it?

    You guys throwing my sister under the bus are no brother/sister of mine. And to be quite honest even if it is found to be 100% her fault you STILL do not crucify her, you do what a true brother does, you comfort and help them through a tragedy that NONE of us ever wish to go through. Some of you make me sick!
    Great post.

    It could have happened to ANY ONE of us.

    How many people are forgetting about THIS?!
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  15. #55
    MembersZone Subscriber MalahatTwo7's Avatar
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    Not forgetting noth'n for noth'n. I've had my share of close ones with worn down or failed brakes, both in personal vehicles and once in fire apparatus.

    That last one fortunately for all concerned, including those at the incident scene that I kinda "whistled" through at a sedate 45mph (indicated DOWN HILL) because the brakes over heated and faded to nothing.

    A mechanical fault created by bad traffic, necessitating increased and continued braking was the declared reason for the failure. The mechanical portion of the problem was created even before I could spell FIREMAN (because thats what we were called back in 1974, when the truck was new). 1974 Ford 500 with a big ***** engine under the hood and an open mother-in-law rear facing cab. We got is as a loaner until our 1993 Freightliner FL70 E One came in.

    I got lucky with light traffic after the incident scene and a relatively short ride down the hill till I could get into a flatter area and get the bloody thing slowed down enough to get it turned around for home again.

    So no, not throwing anyone under anything, just trying to talk a way through the incident and hopefully learn something useful from it.

  16. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by SPFDRum View Post
    I don't know, what where the circumstances of this car fire. Hell, I've pulled 2 people out of car fires in my career. 1 with bystanders around and 1 with police, neither knew there was anybody in the car.
    Second, from the latest articles, it appears on face value the civilian driver pulled right in front of the apparatus. Add the fact he was reported to be hearing impaired, it's a recipe for disaster.
    Again, throwing "brothers" under the bus with out all the facts.
    My condolences to the bereaved and best wishes for those on the rig for a speedy and full; mental and physical, recovery of this tragedy.

    What does the driver being deaf (hearing impaired is a very derogatory term) have anything to do with the situation? My wife is deaf and has been all her life and she is an excellent driver. Infact as an EVOC instructor myself, I would say that she is by far a better and definately much MORE attentive driver than most people I know...including civillians and FD Driver/Operators. Most times when we are out driving around town, she spots emergency vehicles with their lights on long before I ever hear them.

    Next time before you make a very prejudiced comment you should probably put a bit more thought into it!

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    Quote Originally Posted by ksfireman82 View Post
    What does the driver being deaf (hearing impaired is a very derogatory term) have anything to do with the situation? My wife is deaf and has been all her life and she is an excellent driver. Infact as an EVOC instructor myself, I would say that she is by far a better and definately much MORE attentive driver than most people I know...including civillians and FD Driver/Operators. Most times when we are out driving around town, she spots emergency vehicles with their lights on long before I ever hear them.

    Next time before you make a very prejudiced comment you should probably put a bit more thought into it!
    I have a HEARING IMPAIRED son. He is profoundly deaf in his left ear and has greatly diminished hearing in his right. He funcitons normally with an aid in his right ear with a cross lin ksystem to the left. Hearing impaired is a very appropriate term when you are discussing someone who is not profoundly deaf. His teacher at school has the job title of Teacher of the Hearing Impaired.

    As far as the collision is concerned, it is exptremely possible that, if the operator was HEARING IMPAIRED, it was a contributory factor to the crash. Your wife may be an excellent driver, but she was not driving one of the vehicles in this crash and you have no clue whatsoever the extent that any possible hearing impairment played in the crash.

    There was not one single word of prejudice in SP's post. HE is not an igonrant man. You owe him a tremendous apology.
    Last edited by GeorgeWendtCFI; 05-20-2008 at 10:13 PM.
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    Default Let's see where this takes things...

    HARD TO HANDLE
    6 months ago, firefighter wasn’t ready to drive truck that killed two

    By STEPHEN HUBA
    The Independent
    Posted May 07, 2008 @ 10:32 PM

    MASSILLON, OH — The firefighter involved in Tuesday’s fatal accident said six months ago that she did not feel qualified to drive the truck that struck and killed a Massillon man and his grandson.

    Firefighter Susan Toles, 47, signed a document dated Oct. 23, 2007, in which she indicates that she will not “be able to operate this truck in an emergency at this time and will require more training.”

    It is unclear whether she received more training in the operation of the
    vehicle since then.

    Toles did not return phone calls seeking comment. Reached at home, Fire Chief Tom Burgasser said he could not take questions because he was dealing with a family emergency.

    Toles, 47, was driving Engine 211, a ladder truck, on the way to a truck fire Tuesday morning when the emergency vehicle struck a minivan driven by Ronald Anderson, 72, of Massillon.

    Toles and Anderson apparently are distant cousins.

    Anderson and his grandson, Javarre J. Tate, 4, were killed while on their way to the William Malloy Head Start at the intersection of Walnut Road and Johnson Street Southeast.

    Toles and three others involved in Tuesday’s crash – Capt. Rick Annen, 53, and firefighters Jason C. Castille, 32, and Ernest S. Bard II, 29 – were treated and released from Affinity Medical Center’s Massillon Campus.

    Witnesses told Ohio Highway Patrol investigators that Anderson was hard of hearing and pulled in front of the fire truck. Investigators are still trying to determine the speed and braking pattern of the truck at the time of the accident, said patrol Lt. Joel Smith.

    Witnesses said the truck was running sirens and lights. The intersection has flashing red lights and stop signs.

    Engine 211 was the second of two fire trucks dispatched to the fire. Both trucks were dispatched from Station 1, 233 Erie St. S., even though the vehicle fire, in the 1200 block of Huron Road S.E., was in the district of Station 4, 2720 Erie St. S.

    The first truck dispatched to the scene was Engine 214, a pumper normally assigned to Station 4.

    Station 4 personnel were at Station 1 on Tuesday for training, said Assistant Chief Chris Bunnenberg. “They were down here going through stress tests,” he said.

    Tapes of Tuesday morning’s radio traffic reflect that the dispatcher called the 911 caller back and asked whether the vehicle on fire was near a building. The owner of the truck said it was near some houses, and the dispatcher sent a second truck, Engine 211.

    Bunnenberg said the ladder engine, also known as a quint because of its five functions, goes out on all structure fires and when there are requests for additional manpower. Normally, a car fire requires only a pumper, he said.

    Training on the set-up and operation of Engine 211 was held last October. A
    document in Toles’ personnel file asks each training participant to circle the sentence that best represents his or her ability to operate it in an emergency.
    The sentenced circled by Toles states the following: “I do not feel at this time I will be able to operate this truck in an emergency ... and will require more training.”

    Firefighters are required to take an emergency vehicle operation course as part of their 240 hours of basic training. Some fire departments require an annual refresher course for recertification, but Massillon does not.

    Toles, hired in 1990, has several other accidents documented in her personnel file. The most recent was in April 2001, when Toles was driving an ambulance west on Lincoln Way East.

    According to the accident report, Toles went around several westbound vehicles stopped for a red light at Eighth Street Northeast. She swerved into the eastbound lanes and then attempted to get back into the westbound lanes, the report said.

    As she did, she sideswiped a southbound SUV that was turning left from Eighth onto Lincoln Way. According to the report, neither driver saw each other until the last second.

    The Massillon Fire Department’s standard operating procedures for vehicle operations state that drivers should come to a complete stop at a red light only when directed to do so by a law enforcement officer, at blind intersections, when all lanes of traffic cannot be accounted for, or when encountering a stopped school bus with flashing warning lights.

    “The due regard to the safety of others shall be paramount at all times,” the guidelines state.

    Both the Canton and Jackson fire departments require their drivers to come to a near stop at a red light or stop sign during an emergency run.
    I saw this the other day and found it interesting, to say the least. I find it interesting that per department policy, the drivers should come to a stop at a red light only "when directed to do so by a law enforcement officer, at blind intersections, when all lanes of traffic cannot be accounted for, or when encountering a stopped school bus with flashing warning lights." And here I thought it was prudent to stop anytime there's a stop sign or light.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GeorgeWendtCFI View Post
    I have a HEARING IMPAIRED son. He is profoundly deaf in his left ear and has greatly diminished hearing in his right. He funcitons normally with an aid in his right ear with a cross lin ksystem to the left. Hearing impaired is a very appropriate term when you are discussing someone who is not profoundly deaf. His teacher at school has the job title of Teacher of the Hearing Impaired.

    As far as the collision is concerned, it is exptremely possible that, if the operator was HEARING IMPAIRED, it was a contributory factor to the crash. Your wife may be an excellent driver, but she was not driving the apparatus in this crash and you have no clue whatsoever the extent that any possible hearing impairment played in the crash.

    There was not one single word of prejudice in SP's post. HE is not an igonrant man. You owe him a tremendous apology.
    In the years that I have been with my wife, I have always been told by everyone here in the deaf community in KS that the use of the term hearing imparied rather than deaf was considered derogatory. This may be something just in this part of the country, so I appologize for my initial reaction.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Catch22 View Post
    I saw this the other day and found it interesting, to say the least. I find it interesting that per department policy, the drivers should come to a stop at a red light only "when directed to do so by a law enforcement officer, at blind intersections, when all lanes of traffic cannot be accounted for, or when encountering a stopped school bus with flashing warning lights." And here I thought it was prudent to stop anytime there's a stop sign or light.
    Two things strike me...

    1. You just don't sign an affidavit like that out of the blue. It must have been as a result of either a fitness for duty exam or a disciplinary action. The history here is probably enlightening.

    2. One of these days, the FD's in this country are going to accept the fact that fire apparatus can't be driven like a car. The apparatus MUST stop at red lights and stop signs. No matter what.
    PROUD, HONORED AND HUMBLED RECIPIENT OF THE PURPLE HYDRANT AWARD - 10/2007.

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