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    As for the "Stupid" response (I believe that has been apologized for) listen to the 911 call and the response here: http://cantonrep.com/audioClip.php?I...nDate2=May2008
    The caller indicates that the car is near a house. Reports stated that the car had rolled near the house after catching fire.
    This is very difficult to listen to. I have never heard the officer of this truck sound like he does after the crash. Please learn from this, and please do not jump to conclusions about this crash. The OSHP is investigating. They are the experts, not us. These firefighters are taking a beating emotionally from the comments on the newspaper website and the coverage of the local media. The local media took no time uncovering an accident the driver had in her personal car. I think most of the coverage in the local media was in very poor taste.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MalahatTwo7 View Post
    Going to throw a bone for thought. Nothing more. Nothing less.
    Absolutely, if it is in fact some mechanical failure it could still be the engineers fault. What I've been getting after is there are a million ways she could not be at fault, there is also a million ways it could be her fault. What ****es me off is there is a number on her that are only exploring the ways that she could be wrong and crucifying her from their computer desk.

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    Quote Originally Posted by edge1317 View Post
    Absolutely, if it is in fact some mechanical failure it could still be the engineers fault. What I've been getting after is there are a million ways she could not be at fault, there is also a million ways it could be her fault. What ****es me off is there is a number on her that are only exploring the ways that she could be wrong and crucifying her from their computer desk.
    Exactly, well said Edge. It could have happened to ANY ONE of us. Don't sit there and bull**** yourselves. I guarantee that everyone here can list a close call they have had over the years (with the exception of those commenting that have never driven an emergency apparatus). Now think of that close call and imagine if it wasn't so close!!! Not a pretty site is it?

    You guys throwing my sister under the bus are no brother/sister of mine. And to be quite honest even if it is found to be 100% her fault you STILL do not crucify her, you do what a true brother does, you comfort and help them through a tragedy that NONE of us ever wish to go through. Some of you make me sick!
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    Quote Originally Posted by wilson10 View Post
    Exactly, well said Edge. It could have happened to ANY ONE of us. Don't sit there and bull**** yourselves. I guarantee that everyone here can list a close call they have had over the years (with the exception of those commenting that have never driven an emergency apparatus). Now think of that close call and imagine if it wasn't so close!!! Not a pretty site is it?

    You guys throwing my sister under the bus are no brother/sister of mine. And to be quite honest even if it is found to be 100% her fault you STILL do not crucify her, you do what a true brother does, you comfort and help them through a tragedy that NONE of us ever wish to go through. Some of you make me sick!
    Great post.

    It could have happened to ANY ONE of us.

    How many people are forgetting about THIS?!
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    Not forgetting noth'n for noth'n. I've had my share of close ones with worn down or failed brakes, both in personal vehicles and once in fire apparatus.

    That last one fortunately for all concerned, including those at the incident scene that I kinda "whistled" through at a sedate 45mph (indicated DOWN HILL) because the brakes over heated and faded to nothing.

    A mechanical fault created by bad traffic, necessitating increased and continued braking was the declared reason for the failure. The mechanical portion of the problem was created even before I could spell FIREMAN (because thats what we were called back in 1974, when the truck was new). 1974 Ford 500 with a big ***** engine under the hood and an open mother-in-law rear facing cab. We got is as a loaner until our 1993 Freightliner FL70 E One came in.

    I got lucky with light traffic after the incident scene and a relatively short ride down the hill till I could get into a flatter area and get the bloody thing slowed down enough to get it turned around for home again.

    So no, not throwing anyone under anything, just trying to talk a way through the incident and hopefully learn something useful from it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SPFDRum View Post
    I don't know, what where the circumstances of this car fire. Hell, I've pulled 2 people out of car fires in my career. 1 with bystanders around and 1 with police, neither knew there was anybody in the car.
    Second, from the latest articles, it appears on face value the civilian driver pulled right in front of the apparatus. Add the fact he was reported to be hearing impaired, it's a recipe for disaster.
    Again, throwing "brothers" under the bus with out all the facts.
    My condolences to the bereaved and best wishes for those on the rig for a speedy and full; mental and physical, recovery of this tragedy.

    What does the driver being deaf (hearing impaired is a very derogatory term) have anything to do with the situation? My wife is deaf and has been all her life and she is an excellent driver. Infact as an EVOC instructor myself, I would say that she is by far a better and definately much MORE attentive driver than most people I know...including civillians and FD Driver/Operators. Most times when we are out driving around town, she spots emergency vehicles with their lights on long before I ever hear them.

    Next time before you make a very prejudiced comment you should probably put a bit more thought into it!

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    Quote Originally Posted by ksfireman82 View Post
    What does the driver being deaf (hearing impaired is a very derogatory term) have anything to do with the situation? My wife is deaf and has been all her life and she is an excellent driver. Infact as an EVOC instructor myself, I would say that she is by far a better and definately much MORE attentive driver than most people I know...including civillians and FD Driver/Operators. Most times when we are out driving around town, she spots emergency vehicles with their lights on long before I ever hear them.

    Next time before you make a very prejudiced comment you should probably put a bit more thought into it!
    I have a HEARING IMPAIRED son. He is profoundly deaf in his left ear and has greatly diminished hearing in his right. He funcitons normally with an aid in his right ear with a cross lin ksystem to the left. Hearing impaired is a very appropriate term when you are discussing someone who is not profoundly deaf. His teacher at school has the job title of Teacher of the Hearing Impaired.

    As far as the collision is concerned, it is exptremely possible that, if the operator was HEARING IMPAIRED, it was a contributory factor to the crash. Your wife may be an excellent driver, but she was not driving one of the vehicles in this crash and you have no clue whatsoever the extent that any possible hearing impairment played in the crash.

    There was not one single word of prejudice in SP's post. HE is not an igonrant man. You owe him a tremendous apology.
    Last edited by GeorgeWendtCFI; 05-20-2008 at 11:13 PM.
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    Default Let's see where this takes things...

    HARD TO HANDLE
    6 months ago, firefighter wasn’t ready to drive truck that killed two

    By STEPHEN HUBA
    The Independent
    Posted May 07, 2008 @ 10:32 PM

    MASSILLON, OH — The firefighter involved in Tuesday’s fatal accident said six months ago that she did not feel qualified to drive the truck that struck and killed a Massillon man and his grandson.

    Firefighter Susan Toles, 47, signed a document dated Oct. 23, 2007, in which she indicates that she will not “be able to operate this truck in an emergency at this time and will require more training.”

    It is unclear whether she received more training in the operation of the
    vehicle since then.

    Toles did not return phone calls seeking comment. Reached at home, Fire Chief Tom Burgasser said he could not take questions because he was dealing with a family emergency.

    Toles, 47, was driving Engine 211, a ladder truck, on the way to a truck fire Tuesday morning when the emergency vehicle struck a minivan driven by Ronald Anderson, 72, of Massillon.

    Toles and Anderson apparently are distant cousins.

    Anderson and his grandson, Javarre J. Tate, 4, were killed while on their way to the William Malloy Head Start at the intersection of Walnut Road and Johnson Street Southeast.

    Toles and three others involved in Tuesday’s crash – Capt. Rick Annen, 53, and firefighters Jason C. Castille, 32, and Ernest S. Bard II, 29 – were treated and released from Affinity Medical Center’s Massillon Campus.

    Witnesses told Ohio Highway Patrol investigators that Anderson was hard of hearing and pulled in front of the fire truck. Investigators are still trying to determine the speed and braking pattern of the truck at the time of the accident, said patrol Lt. Joel Smith.

    Witnesses said the truck was running sirens and lights. The intersection has flashing red lights and stop signs.

    Engine 211 was the second of two fire trucks dispatched to the fire. Both trucks were dispatched from Station 1, 233 Erie St. S., even though the vehicle fire, in the 1200 block of Huron Road S.E., was in the district of Station 4, 2720 Erie St. S.

    The first truck dispatched to the scene was Engine 214, a pumper normally assigned to Station 4.

    Station 4 personnel were at Station 1 on Tuesday for training, said Assistant Chief Chris Bunnenberg. “They were down here going through stress tests,” he said.

    Tapes of Tuesday morning’s radio traffic reflect that the dispatcher called the 911 caller back and asked whether the vehicle on fire was near a building. The owner of the truck said it was near some houses, and the dispatcher sent a second truck, Engine 211.

    Bunnenberg said the ladder engine, also known as a quint because of its five functions, goes out on all structure fires and when there are requests for additional manpower. Normally, a car fire requires only a pumper, he said.

    Training on the set-up and operation of Engine 211 was held last October. A
    document in Toles’ personnel file asks each training participant to circle the sentence that best represents his or her ability to operate it in an emergency.
    The sentenced circled by Toles states the following: “I do not feel at this time I will be able to operate this truck in an emergency ... and will require more training.”

    Firefighters are required to take an emergency vehicle operation course as part of their 240 hours of basic training. Some fire departments require an annual refresher course for recertification, but Massillon does not.

    Toles, hired in 1990, has several other accidents documented in her personnel file. The most recent was in April 2001, when Toles was driving an ambulance west on Lincoln Way East.

    According to the accident report, Toles went around several westbound vehicles stopped for a red light at Eighth Street Northeast. She swerved into the eastbound lanes and then attempted to get back into the westbound lanes, the report said.

    As she did, she sideswiped a southbound SUV that was turning left from Eighth onto Lincoln Way. According to the report, neither driver saw each other until the last second.

    The Massillon Fire Department’s standard operating procedures for vehicle operations state that drivers should come to a complete stop at a red light only when directed to do so by a law enforcement officer, at blind intersections, when all lanes of traffic cannot be accounted for, or when encountering a stopped school bus with flashing warning lights.

    “The due regard to the safety of others shall be paramount at all times,” the guidelines state.

    Both the Canton and Jackson fire departments require their drivers to come to a near stop at a red light or stop sign during an emergency run.
    I saw this the other day and found it interesting, to say the least. I find it interesting that per department policy, the drivers should come to a stop at a red light only "when directed to do so by a law enforcement officer, at blind intersections, when all lanes of traffic cannot be accounted for, or when encountering a stopped school bus with flashing warning lights." And here I thought it was prudent to stop anytime there's a stop sign or light.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GeorgeWendtCFI View Post
    I have a HEARING IMPAIRED son. He is profoundly deaf in his left ear and has greatly diminished hearing in his right. He funcitons normally with an aid in his right ear with a cross lin ksystem to the left. Hearing impaired is a very appropriate term when you are discussing someone who is not profoundly deaf. His teacher at school has the job title of Teacher of the Hearing Impaired.

    As far as the collision is concerned, it is exptremely possible that, if the operator was HEARING IMPAIRED, it was a contributory factor to the crash. Your wife may be an excellent driver, but she was not driving the apparatus in this crash and you have no clue whatsoever the extent that any possible hearing impairment played in the crash.

    There was not one single word of prejudice in SP's post. HE is not an igonrant man. You owe him a tremendous apology.
    In the years that I have been with my wife, I have always been told by everyone here in the deaf community in KS that the use of the term hearing imparied rather than deaf was considered derogatory. This may be something just in this part of the country, so I appologize for my initial reaction.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Catch22 View Post
    I saw this the other day and found it interesting, to say the least. I find it interesting that per department policy, the drivers should come to a stop at a red light only "when directed to do so by a law enforcement officer, at blind intersections, when all lanes of traffic cannot be accounted for, or when encountering a stopped school bus with flashing warning lights." And here I thought it was prudent to stop anytime there's a stop sign or light.
    Two things strike me...

    1. You just don't sign an affidavit like that out of the blue. It must have been as a result of either a fitness for duty exam or a disciplinary action. The history here is probably enlightening.

    2. One of these days, the FD's in this country are going to accept the fact that fire apparatus can't be driven like a car. The apparatus MUST stop at red lights and stop signs. No matter what.
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    Quote Originally Posted by GeorgeWendtCFI View Post
    Two things strike me...

    One of these days, the FD's in this country are going to accept the fact that fire apparatus can't be driven like a car. The apparatus MUST stop at red lights and stop signs. No matter what.
    Exactly George! I said this before and will repeat it once more:

    1. EXPECT THE UNEXPECTED
    2. SEE AND BE SEEN
    3. LEAVE YOURSELF AN "OUT"
    4. IF UNCERTAIN...STOP then PRECEED SLOW ENOUGH TO BE IN CONTROL


    I was not there either, however having done [traffic] accident investigation over 30 years ago, I always found it as a professional challenge to find out exactly what REALLY happened...taking witness and operators statements into account. Of course, we did not have the high-tech GPS and laser measuring equip. of today, only tried and true tape measures and excellent photos.

    I think...which at my age gives me a headache, that there was ANOTHER VEHICLE...heading the SAME DIRECTION as the '99, E-One quint was traveling, STOPPED at the intersection, BLOCKING THE VIEW of the quint from Mr. Anderson.

    From the initial point of contact to where both vehicles came to rest, it looks like it was all carried out in the WESTBOUND lane (the OPPOSITE lane of travel of the quint). I think the quint...in a effort to clear the intersection, went LEFT-OF-CENTER (around a EASTBOUND stopped vehicle), making contact with Mr. Anderson as he entered the intersection from the right, across the WESTBOUND lane...into the path of the EASTBOUND quint.

    However, I cannot figure out HOW the quint pushed the minivan sideways...300+ feet down the WESTBOUND lane...unless the startled operator...accidently mashed the throttle instead of the brakes?
    "Take care of yourself first. Life is too short and you never know what tomorrow or for that matter...what the next few seconds is going to bring."

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    However, I cannot figure out HOW the quint pushed the minivan sideways...300+ feet down the WESTBOUND lane...unless the startled operator...accidently mashed the throttle instead of the brakes?
    Going through a four-way stop entirely too damned fast probably had a lot to do with it.

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    Default Update:

    Monday, June 23, 2008
    BY Benjamin Duer
    REPOSITORY STAFF WRITER
    A Massillon firefighter won't face any criminal charges for this fatal crash in May that killed a 4-year-old and his grandfather.

    MASSILLON A city firefighter won't face any criminal charges for a fatal crash last month that killed a 4 year-old and his grandfather.

    There was "insufficient evidence" to charge firefighter Susan Toles with a crime, said Canton City Prosecutor Frank Forchione. Forchione agreed to review the evidence since it involved a Massillon city employee.

    According to the Ohio Highway Patrol, Toles and three other firefighters were responding to a car fire May 6, when the engine collided with a minivan at Walnut Road and Johnson Street SE.
    http://www.indeonline.com/local_news...FATAL-ACCIDENT
    Last edited by 1OLDTIMER; 06-24-2008 at 11:45 AM.
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    Good to see all the speculation was for nothing, I hope we all learn to think twice before jumping to conclusions. It is a tragedy that needs to be laid to rest, period. Good luck to all our Massillion Brothers.
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    Exclamation

    I hope this will be another learning experience for all driver/operators...that you cannot count on the amateur, motoring public seeing you approaching, and that you must drive with do regard to them...coming to a complete stop if necessary. The warning devices are not a ticket to violate local traffic regulations, killing or injuring citizens...enroute to assist [other] citizens that are expecting your arrival.
    "Take care of yourself first. Life is too short and you never know what tomorrow or for that matter...what the next few seconds is going to bring."

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    Agree with 1OLDTIMER. And remember just because no charges were filled doesn't meant he couldn't have. It night be in this case the charges would have been low level and the prosecutor figures they have suffered enough.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 39truck View Post
    Good to see all the speculation was for nothing, I hope we all learn to think twice before jumping to conclusions. It is a tragedy that needs to be laid to rest, period. Good luck to all our Massillion Brothers.

    Based on the two posts after yours, I would say that many still speculate and jump to conclusions.
    I am now a past chief and the views, opinions, and comments are mine and mine alone. I do not speak for any department or in any official capacity. Although, they would be smart to listen to me.

    "The last thing I want to do is hurt you. But it's still on the list."

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    Quote Originally Posted by ChiefKN View Post
    Based on the two posts after yours, I would say that many still speculate and jump to conclusions.

    I see that, o well, I tried to lay it to rest. But you know how that goes.
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    Quote Originally Posted by 39truck View Post
    Good to see all the speculation was for nothing, I hope we all learn to think twice before jumping to conclusions. It is a tragedy that needs to be laid to rest, period. Good luck to all our Massillion Brothers.
    I disagree with you, and will accuse you of jumping the gun. As mentioned, just because the special prosecutor does not file criminal charges doesn't file charges does not mean that the FD nor the Engineer is clear of any wrong doing.

    According to this article (NO CHARGES FILED IN FATAL ACCIDENT), the OHP estimated the truck's speed at 40-45 mph. I don't know what kind of street this was or what the speed limit was (if anyone knows or if I missed it in previous posts, please let me know as I'm honestly curious for case-study purposes), but busting a 4-way stop at that kind of speed should be intolerable for any department.

    No speculation, no jumping to conclusions; based on the "facts" presented, I think the man and boy are dead because of the negligence of one of our own. The sooner more people start looking at it in that regard, the sooner we'll start seeing fewer of these incidents. As long as we have people jumping behind the wheel of a 40-60K lbs. truck thinking they can do as they please because they have lights and sirens on and refuse to take responsibility for their own actions, we'll see more of these stories.

    And just for the record, I do feel for the woman driving that truck. I'm not completely heartless, but this isn't some unpreventable accident. Nor is the fault to bear on her and her alone. Her officer could have told her to slow down. Her chief could have had a policy dictating emergency response.
    Last edited by Catch22; 06-24-2008 at 09:10 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Catch22 View Post
    I disagree with you, and will accuse you of jumping the gun. As mentioned, just because the special prosecutor does not file criminal charges doesn't file charges does not mean that the FD nor the Engineer is clear of any wrong doing.

    According to this article (NO CHARGES FILED IN FATAL ACCIDENT), the OHP estimated the truck's speed at 40-45 mph. I don't know what kind of street this was or what the speed limit was (if anyone knows or if I missed it in previous posts, please let me know as I'm honestly curious for case-study purposes), but busting a 4-way stop at that kind of speed should be intolerable for any department.

    No speculation, no jumping to conclusions; based on the "facts" presented, I think the man and boy are dead because of the negligence of one of our own. The sooner more people start looking at it in that regard, the sooner we'll start seeing fewer of these incidents. As long as we have people jumping behind the wheel of a 40-60K lbs. truck thinking they can do as they please because they have lights and sirens on and refuse to take responsibility for their own actions, we'll see more of these stories.

    And just for the record, I do feel for the woman driving that truck. I'm not completely heartless, but this isn't some unpreventable accident. Nor is the fault to bear on her and her alone. Her officer could have told her to slow down. Her chief could have had a policy dictating emergency response.
    Okay, but I really doubt that most of these posters have even read the information you cited.
    I am now a past chief and the views, opinions, and comments are mine and mine alone. I do not speak for any department or in any official capacity. Although, they would be smart to listen to me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ChiefKN View Post
    Okay, but I really doubt that most of these posters have even read the information you cited.
    I think the photos told enough of the story.

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    This without doubt is probably a long way from over. No doubt there will be civil action, political action possibly but the terrible tragedy, that is the loss of life of two people will be heightened by the fact that all were related. No matter the legal consequences, this FF has paid and will continue to pay a tremendous price. My prayers to the families of the deceased and also to the FF and her family.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ChiefKN View Post
    Okay, but I really doubt that most of these posters have even read the information you cited.
    You're probably right. But then again, most of these posters won't go to the trouble to find more information about a topic before they post, either.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Catch22 View Post
    According to this article (NO CHARGES FILED IN FATAL ACCIDENT), the OHP estimated the truck's speed at 40-45 mph. I don't know what kind of street this was or what the speed limit was (if anyone knows or if I missed it in previous posts, please let me know as I'm honestly curious for case-study purposes), but busting a 4-way stop at that kind of speed should be intolerable for any department.
    1. The street is a typical asphalt (city) 2-lane (approx 30ft. wide)
    2. The speed limit was 35MPH

    I was not there but I know an "ex-city official" who was. My opinon (again) is that; the responding quint WENT LEFT OF CENTER [in the intersection] to pass a stopped vehicle (heading the same direction as the quint was). Mr. Anderson's VIEW WAS BLOCKED by this stopped vehicle, and he pulled out into the path of the quint.

    Reason...the initial point of contact to the minivan was entirely on the drivers side...in the OPPOSITE LANE of travel, with the quint and minivan coming to rest OVER 300 HUNDRED FEET from the intersection...skidding the minivan SIDEWAYS all the way.

    I would appreciate an expert to explain how a truck of that size...could push a minivan SIDEWAYS over 300ft [with SOME brake application], and then tell me that EXCESSIVE SPEED was NOT a factor.

    I iimagine firefighter/driver Toles will live with this the rest of her life, and has suffered greatly. However, I would have thought she would have at least been charged with failure to have her vehicle under control...which she DID NOT.
    Last edited by 1OLDTIMER; 06-25-2008 at 09:28 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Catch22 View Post
    I disagree with you, and will accuse you of jumping the gun. As mentioned, just because the special prosecutor does not file criminal charges doesn't file charges does not mean that the FD nor the Engineer is clear of any wrong doing.

    According to this article (NO CHARGES FILED IN FATAL ACCIDENT), the OHP estimated the truck's speed at 40-45 mph. I don't know what kind of street this was or what the speed limit was (if anyone knows or if I missed it in previous posts, please let me know as I'm honestly curious for case-study purposes), but busting a 4-way stop at that kind of speed should be intolerable for any department.

    No speculation, no jumping to conclusions; based on the "facts" presented, I think the man and boy are dead because of the negligence of one of our own. The sooner more people start looking at it in that regard, the sooner we'll start seeing fewer of these incidents. As long as we have people jumping behind the wheel of a 40-60K lbs. truck thinking they can do as they please because they have lights and sirens on and refuse to take responsibility for their own actions, we'll see more of these stories.

    And just for the record, I do feel for the woman driving that truck. I'm not completely heartless, but this isn't some unpreventable accident. Nor is the fault to bear on her and her alone. Her officer could have told her to slow down. Her chief could have had a policy dictating emergency response.
    Look I agree that operators should not drive a truck like their car but I think you missed the point of what I was saying, and yes I did read that article as I get that newspaper delivered to my house daily. All I am saying is they found her speed to be acceptable :Forchione said there is “credible evidence” that Ronald Anderson, 72, pulled into the path of the truck.
    “There’s no question the fire truck was operating with its lights and sirens on,” Forchione said. “The accident reconstruction evidence found the (truck’s) speed to be reasonable when responding to an accident.”
    Forchione also confirmed that Anderson had hearing problems

    I may not agree with that and you may not but the people who matter do. As for your comment about not feeling for the women driving the truck come on bro thats going to far. Its called an accident for a reason.
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