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  1. #61
    Forum Member 1OLDTIMER's Avatar
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    Question

    Quote Originally Posted by GeorgeWendtCFI View Post
    Two things strike me...

    One of these days, the FD's in this country are going to accept the fact that fire apparatus can't be driven like a car. The apparatus MUST stop at red lights and stop signs. No matter what.
    Exactly George! I said this before and will repeat it once more:

    1. EXPECT THE UNEXPECTED
    2. SEE AND BE SEEN
    3. LEAVE YOURSELF AN "OUT"
    4. IF UNCERTAIN...STOP then PRECEED SLOW ENOUGH TO BE IN CONTROL


    I was not there either, however having done [traffic] accident investigation over 30 years ago, I always found it as a professional challenge to find out exactly what REALLY happened...taking witness and operators statements into account. Of course, we did not have the high-tech GPS and laser measuring equip. of today, only tried and true tape measures and excellent photos.

    I think...which at my age gives me a headache, that there was ANOTHER VEHICLE...heading the SAME DIRECTION as the '99, E-One quint was traveling, STOPPED at the intersection, BLOCKING THE VIEW of the quint from Mr. Anderson.

    From the initial point of contact to where both vehicles came to rest, it looks like it was all carried out in the WESTBOUND lane (the OPPOSITE lane of travel of the quint). I think the quint...in a effort to clear the intersection, went LEFT-OF-CENTER (around a EASTBOUND stopped vehicle), making contact with Mr. Anderson as he entered the intersection from the right, across the WESTBOUND lane...into the path of the EASTBOUND quint.

    However, I cannot figure out HOW the quint pushed the minivan sideways...300+ feet down the WESTBOUND lane...unless the startled operator...accidently mashed the throttle instead of the brakes?
    "we will bankrupt ourselves in the vain attempt at absolute security"
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  2. #62
    Forum Member ThNozzleman's Avatar
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    However, I cannot figure out HOW the quint pushed the minivan sideways...300+ feet down the WESTBOUND lane...unless the startled operator...accidently mashed the throttle instead of the brakes?
    Going through a four-way stop entirely too damned fast probably had a lot to do with it.

  3. #63
    Forum Member 1OLDTIMER's Avatar
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    Default Update:

    Monday, June 23, 2008
    BY Benjamin Duer
    REPOSITORY STAFF WRITER
    A Massillon firefighter won't face any criminal charges for this fatal crash in May that killed a 4-year-old and his grandfather.

    MASSILLON A city firefighter won't face any criminal charges for a fatal crash last month that killed a 4 year-old and his grandfather.

    There was "insufficient evidence" to charge firefighter Susan Toles with a crime, said Canton City Prosecutor Frank Forchione. Forchione agreed to review the evidence since it involved a Massillon city employee.

    According to the Ohio Highway Patrol, Toles and three other firefighters were responding to a car fire May 6, when the engine collided with a minivan at Walnut Road and Johnson Street SE.
    http://www.indeonline.com/local_news...FATAL-ACCIDENT
    Last edited by 1OLDTIMER; 06-24-2008 at 10:45 AM.
    "we will bankrupt ourselves in the vain attempt at absolute security"
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  4. #64
    Forum Member 39truck's Avatar
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    Good to see all the speculation was for nothing, I hope we all learn to think twice before jumping to conclusions. It is a tragedy that needs to be laid to rest, period. Good luck to all our Massillion Brothers.
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  5. #65
    Forum Member 1OLDTIMER's Avatar
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    Exclamation

    I hope this will be another learning experience for all driver/operators...that you cannot count on the amateur, motoring public seeing you approaching, and that you must drive with do regard to them...coming to a complete stop if necessary. The warning devices are not a ticket to violate local traffic regulations, killing or injuring citizens...enroute to assist [other] citizens that are expecting your arrival.
    "we will bankrupt ourselves in the vain attempt at absolute security"
    Pres. / General Dwight D. Eisenhower

  6. #66
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    Agree with 1OLDTIMER. And remember just because no charges were filled doesn't meant he couldn't have. It night be in this case the charges would have been low level and the prosecutor figures they have suffered enough.

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by 39truck View Post
    Good to see all the speculation was for nothing, I hope we all learn to think twice before jumping to conclusions. It is a tragedy that needs to be laid to rest, period. Good luck to all our Massillion Brothers.

    Based on the two posts after yours, I would say that many still speculate and jump to conclusions.
    I am now a past chief and the views, opinions, and comments are mine and mine alone. I do not speak for any department or in any official capacity. Although, they would be smart to listen to me.

    "The last thing I want to do is hurt you. But it's still on the list."

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  8. #68
    Forum Member 39truck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChiefKN View Post
    Based on the two posts after yours, I would say that many still speculate and jump to conclusions.

    I see that, o well, I tried to lay it to rest. But you know how that goes.
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  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by 39truck View Post
    Good to see all the speculation was for nothing, I hope we all learn to think twice before jumping to conclusions. It is a tragedy that needs to be laid to rest, period. Good luck to all our Massillion Brothers.
    I disagree with you, and will accuse you of jumping the gun. As mentioned, just because the special prosecutor does not file criminal charges doesn't file charges does not mean that the FD nor the Engineer is clear of any wrong doing.

    According to this article (NO CHARGES FILED IN FATAL ACCIDENT), the OHP estimated the truck's speed at 40-45 mph. I don't know what kind of street this was or what the speed limit was (if anyone knows or if I missed it in previous posts, please let me know as I'm honestly curious for case-study purposes), but busting a 4-way stop at that kind of speed should be intolerable for any department.

    No speculation, no jumping to conclusions; based on the "facts" presented, I think the man and boy are dead because of the negligence of one of our own. The sooner more people start looking at it in that regard, the sooner we'll start seeing fewer of these incidents. As long as we have people jumping behind the wheel of a 40-60K lbs. truck thinking they can do as they please because they have lights and sirens on and refuse to take responsibility for their own actions, we'll see more of these stories.

    And just for the record, I do feel for the woman driving that truck. I'm not completely heartless, but this isn't some unpreventable accident. Nor is the fault to bear on her and her alone. Her officer could have told her to slow down. Her chief could have had a policy dictating emergency response.
    Last edited by Catch22; 06-24-2008 at 08:10 PM.

  10. #70
    Back In Black ChiefKN's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Catch22 View Post
    I disagree with you, and will accuse you of jumping the gun. As mentioned, just because the special prosecutor does not file criminal charges doesn't file charges does not mean that the FD nor the Engineer is clear of any wrong doing.

    According to this article (NO CHARGES FILED IN FATAL ACCIDENT), the OHP estimated the truck's speed at 40-45 mph. I don't know what kind of street this was or what the speed limit was (if anyone knows or if I missed it in previous posts, please let me know as I'm honestly curious for case-study purposes), but busting a 4-way stop at that kind of speed should be intolerable for any department.

    No speculation, no jumping to conclusions; based on the "facts" presented, I think the man and boy are dead because of the negligence of one of our own. The sooner more people start looking at it in that regard, the sooner we'll start seeing fewer of these incidents. As long as we have people jumping behind the wheel of a 40-60K lbs. truck thinking they can do as they please because they have lights and sirens on and refuse to take responsibility for their own actions, we'll see more of these stories.

    And just for the record, I do feel for the woman driving that truck. I'm not completely heartless, but this isn't some unpreventable accident. Nor is the fault to bear on her and her alone. Her officer could have told her to slow down. Her chief could have had a policy dictating emergency response.
    Okay, but I really doubt that most of these posters have even read the information you cited.
    I am now a past chief and the views, opinions, and comments are mine and mine alone. I do not speak for any department or in any official capacity. Although, they would be smart to listen to me.

    "The last thing I want to do is hurt you. But it's still on the list."

    "When tempted to fight fire with fire, remember that the Fire Department usually uses water."

  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChiefKN View Post
    Okay, but I really doubt that most of these posters have even read the information you cited.
    I think the photos told enough of the story.

  12. #72
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    This without doubt is probably a long way from over. No doubt there will be civil action, political action possibly but the terrible tragedy, that is the loss of life of two people will be heightened by the fact that all were related. No matter the legal consequences, this FF has paid and will continue to pay a tremendous price. My prayers to the families of the deceased and also to the FF and her family.

  13. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChiefKN View Post
    Okay, but I really doubt that most of these posters have even read the information you cited.
    You're probably right. But then again, most of these posters won't go to the trouble to find more information about a topic before they post, either.

  14. #74
    Forum Member 1OLDTIMER's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Catch22 View Post
    According to this article (NO CHARGES FILED IN FATAL ACCIDENT), the OHP estimated the truck's speed at 40-45 mph. I don't know what kind of street this was or what the speed limit was (if anyone knows or if I missed it in previous posts, please let me know as I'm honestly curious for case-study purposes), but busting a 4-way stop at that kind of speed should be intolerable for any department.
    1. The street is a typical asphalt (city) 2-lane (approx 30ft. wide)
    2. The speed limit was 35MPH

    I was not there but I know an "ex-city official" who was. My opinon (again) is that; the responding quint WENT LEFT OF CENTER [in the intersection] to pass a stopped vehicle (heading the same direction as the quint was). Mr. Anderson's VIEW WAS BLOCKED by this stopped vehicle, and he pulled out into the path of the quint.

    Reason...the initial point of contact to the minivan was entirely on the drivers side...in the OPPOSITE LANE of travel, with the quint and minivan coming to rest OVER 300 HUNDRED FEET from the intersection...skidding the minivan SIDEWAYS all the way.

    I would appreciate an expert to explain how a truck of that size...could push a minivan SIDEWAYS over 300ft [with SOME brake application], and then tell me that EXCESSIVE SPEED was NOT a factor.

    I iimagine firefighter/driver Toles will live with this the rest of her life, and has suffered greatly. However, I would have thought she would have at least been charged with failure to have her vehicle under control...which she DID NOT.
    Last edited by 1OLDTIMER; 06-25-2008 at 08:28 AM.
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  15. #75
    Forum Member 39truck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Catch22 View Post
    I disagree with you, and will accuse you of jumping the gun. As mentioned, just because the special prosecutor does not file criminal charges doesn't file charges does not mean that the FD nor the Engineer is clear of any wrong doing.

    According to this article (NO CHARGES FILED IN FATAL ACCIDENT), the OHP estimated the truck's speed at 40-45 mph. I don't know what kind of street this was or what the speed limit was (if anyone knows or if I missed it in previous posts, please let me know as I'm honestly curious for case-study purposes), but busting a 4-way stop at that kind of speed should be intolerable for any department.

    No speculation, no jumping to conclusions; based on the "facts" presented, I think the man and boy are dead because of the negligence of one of our own. The sooner more people start looking at it in that regard, the sooner we'll start seeing fewer of these incidents. As long as we have people jumping behind the wheel of a 40-60K lbs. truck thinking they can do as they please because they have lights and sirens on and refuse to take responsibility for their own actions, we'll see more of these stories.

    And just for the record, I do feel for the woman driving that truck. I'm not completely heartless, but this isn't some unpreventable accident. Nor is the fault to bear on her and her alone. Her officer could have told her to slow down. Her chief could have had a policy dictating emergency response.
    Look I agree that operators should not drive a truck like their car but I think you missed the point of what I was saying, and yes I did read that article as I get that newspaper delivered to my house daily. All I am saying is they found her speed to be acceptable :Forchione said there is “credible evidence” that Ronald Anderson, 72, pulled into the path of the truck.
    “There’s no question the fire truck was operating with its lights and sirens on,” Forchione said. “The accident reconstruction evidence found the (truck’s) speed to be reasonable when responding to an accident.”
    Forchione also confirmed that Anderson had hearing problems

    I may not agree with that and you may not but the people who matter do. As for your comment about not feeling for the women driving the truck come on bro thats going to far. Its called an accident for a reason.
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    Forum Member Bones42's Avatar
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    All I am saying is they found her speed to be acceptable :Forchione said there is “credible evidence” that Ronald Anderson, 72, pulled into the path of the truck.
    “There’s no question the fire truck was operating with its lights and sirens on,” Forchione said. “The accident reconstruction evidence found the (truck’s) speed to be reasonable when responding to an accident.”
    Forchione also confirmed that Anderson had hearing problems

    I may not agree with that and you may not but the people who matter do. As for your comment about not feeling for the women driving the truck come on bro thats going to far. Its called an accident for a reason.
    So it was acceptable for the truck to be travelling 40-45 MPH through a 4 way stop?
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

  17. #77
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    Appropriate speed through a controlled intersection is 10 MPH (unless you have a green light). What I see is selective enforcement of the laws.

  18. #78
    Forum Member ThNozzleman's Avatar
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    While there was no criminal intent proven, she still blew the intersection with excessive speed, and ended up striking an old man and a little boy, killing them, then dragging their vehicle the length of a football field. I don't know what their policies/SOG's/SOP's are at this department, but if they allow for this type of behavior, they need to be addressed. Youtube is chock full of videos demonstrating such recklessness.
    Slow the **** down. This man and his grandson died, just so she could get the truck to a car fire a few seconds quicker.

  19. #79
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    So it was acceptable for the truck to be travelling 40-45 MPH through a 4 way stop?
    Absolutely, positively not...ever.

  20. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by 39truck View Post
    Forchione said there is “credible evidence” that Ronald Anderson, 72, pulled into the path of the truck. Forchione also confirmed that Anderson had hearing problems
    What does Anderson's hearing "problems" have to do with anything? Most drivers have hearing "problems" today...with the stero on and windows up tight. IF she had her vehicle under contol...she SHOULD have been able to STOP...or at minimum hit Anderson's van...but NOT push the thing 300+feet down the street.

    Forchione said. “The accident reconstruction evidence found the (truck’s) speed to be reasonable when responding to an accident.”
    If this had NOT occured at a 4-way stop, then the speed may have been acceptable ...however it WAS a 4-way.

    Quote Originally Posted by 39truck View Post
    As for your comment about not feeling for the women driving the truck, come on bro thats going to far. Its called an accident for a reason.
    Wait just a minute here. The woman driving the truck! Excuse me, but the driver/operator was a fireFIGHTER...NOT a fireWOMAN. First, if you recall [from the original article] the operator SIGNED A STATEMENT that [she] DID NOT FEEL QUAILFIED to drive the quint. Second, it is absolute overkill to send an engine AND a quint to a pickup truck on fire...even though it MAY [which it was not] be near a single-story, solid-brick house. Anyone who has been on that dept. for over two weeks, knows that those houses [built by the Fed. govt. in 1944] are impossible to burn. About 75% of them have had fires over the past 64 years, and not a single one has EVER had the roof burned-off, or a "ventilation" hole. Taking-up for the female driver is discrimination against all male drivers. Maybe the one who should be punished is whom ever let [or ordered] the "unqualified" firefighter drive the quint "hot" on a run?

    Quote Originally Posted by Catch22
    And just for the record, I DO feel for the woman driving that truck. I'm not completely heartless, but this isn't some unpreventable accident. Nor is the fault to bear on her and her alone. Her officer could have told her to slow down. Her chief could have had a policy dictating emergency response.
    Last edited by 1OLDTIMER; 06-25-2008 at 06:18 PM.
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