Thread: pump shift

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    Default pump shift

    Can someone describe to me the exact procedure for switching from road to pump and back? Currently having an argument with someone.......
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    you will need to provide more info.

    What make and model pump? PTO drive or midship?

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    Generally speaking...
    • Set parking brake
    • Shift to neutral
    • Engine pump shift
    • Place transmission to drive (or 5th gear if manual transmission)
    • Listen for pump to engage, verify speedometer shows "speed"

    When done...
    • Throttle down
    • Place transmission in neutral
    • Allow speedometer to reach "zero" MPH
    • Disengage pump shift

    PTO's are different, and I know of one rig that required the driver to shift into reverse before going into drive when engaging the pump gear.

    What other info do you have on make, model, style, etc...?
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    It's got a ISL/EVS3000/Waterous 1250 with the yellow pneumatic pump shift.



    When throwing the switch from road to pump do you pause in the middle or just throw it all the way down with 1 swift motion?

    And if the green light doesn't come on until you put it back in drive after it is in pump, is that fine?
    Last edited by Ha11igan; 05-14-2008 at 11:42 PM.
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    1 swift motion

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    I've always made it a habit to pause in the middle position for a couple of seconds....seems like I was taught it that way years ago, and that's how I teach it. I'm not sure it makes a difference, but I do it out of habit now.

    When you are going from pump to road, when you place the transmission in neutral, wait a few seconds for the RPM's to come down before you throw the PTO shift.


    PTO's are different, and I know of one rig that required the driver to shift into reverse before going into drive when engaging the pump gear.
    We have a older mini-pumper that is like that. You don't actually have to shift it into reverse, but you have to sort of "bump" reverse for a second to stop the shaft from spinning before engaging the PTO, or else it grinds a lot. (or maybe it's when taking it out of pump gear....I don't remember, it's been a while... ) Not a problem with the modern units where it's more synchronized.
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    Quote Originally Posted by txgp17 View Post
    1 swift motion
    What I have heard is that with most of the older trucks, you needed to pause in the middle position. This would give you the best results for pump engagement. I have seen some newer trucks that will work without the pause. I guess that it all depends on what works for your truck.
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    While I haven't don any research of my own, I'm told the middle is neutral on the transfer case. So stopping there accomplishes nothing. One swift motion in and out.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ha11igan View Post
    It's got a ISL/EVS3000/Waterous 1250 with the yellow pneumatic pump shift.



    When throwing the switch from road to pump do you pause in the middle or just throw it all the way down with 1 swift motion?

    And if the green light doesn't come on until you put it back in drive after it is in pump, is that fine?
    Some Waterous pumps, when they are new will experience a condition known as "butt tooth" where the gears aren't in perfect alignment when you go to make the shift. Due to the newness and tightness of the gears they are rotating in unison and the shift collar can't move into the "Pump" position. The result is that you don't get a complete shift, as shown by the light(s) not lighting. The trick is to momentarily touch reverse which breaks the torque against them, allowing the shift to complete itself.

    This condition usually clears itself pretty quickly. We had it on our '89 Quality (Waterous electric shift) and on our 2007 Toyne (Toyne's electrically operated Waterous air shift). The electric shift took a couple of months to clear out. The more powerful air shift cleared within a month or so. Of course the more you use it, the faster it clears. Toyne's switch does have a "neutral" position, and they suggest stopping there momentarily.

    As the gears wear in, just putting it in "Drive" usually clears the butt tooth condition. The second light tells you that the shift is complete. It's OK that the light doesn't come on until you put it in Drive. But a word of caution: Be sure that you have your foot on the brake when putting it in Drive!

    Stay safe out there, everyone goes home!
    Last edited by chiefengineer11; 05-15-2008 at 07:57 AM.

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    I've always made it a habit to pause in the middle position for a couple of seconds....seems like I was taught it that way years ago, and that's how I teach it. I'm not sure it makes a difference, but I do it out of habit now.
    I was taught the same way, never really given a reason, but just told by our chief engineer to do it that way. I still do out of habit.

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    On our trucks, the pump air switch needs to be paused in the middle, but only for an instant. It is an air switch and if you listen, it releases the air pressure that is holding the shift gears into position prior to shifting in the other direction. On swift motion could, but is highly unlikely, to trap air pressure on both sides of the switch.

    It would really have to be a condition caused by a blockage or mechanical failure to actually make that happen, I think, but pausing in the middle and hearing the air escape is positive indication that the switch is working correctly.

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    Attached is the pump shift procedure from the Waterous manual. No where in the procedure does it mention a need to pause in the pump shift control movement.
    Attached Images Attached Images

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    The middle position does relieve the pressure off of the opposite side of the shift piston. Passing through the middle is adequate to bleed off the pressure, no need to stop in the middle. If you are planning to use a manual shift override with air pressure being supplied you must put the shift switch in the middle (neutral) position to bleed air pressure off both sides of the pump shift piston.

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    For emergency pump shift training purposes, leaving the shifter in the middle position also allows you to put the pump in gear using the manual pump shift on the pump panel.

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    Quote Originally Posted by zfdtruckman View Post
    Attached is the pump shift procedure from the Waterous manual. No where in the procedure does it mention a need to pause in the pump shift control movement.
    OMG, here we go injected facts from the Manufacturer into the discussion.

    Putting the switch in the middle position is neutral for the air shift cylinder, not neutral for the pump transmission. This means that the cylinder is neither pushing, nor pulling, thus it remains in the position it was last in unless acted on by another force.

    American LaFrance installed a couple of these air actuators on our engines for the Tank to Pump valve. Because it looked similar to the pump shifter, some guys thought the pump shift was located on the pump panel, despite it being label "Tank to Pump."

    Waterous has an instructional truck that makes it way around the country from time to time. I attended one of their classes back in 1998. The Waterous rep did make one great recommendation that is also found in the owner's manual. If you have trouble with the pump shifter not making a full shift from road to pump. Try shifting to Reverse for a second, then back to neutral for a 1-2 seconds, then to drive. This procedure worked great for electric pump shifters, which are notoriously weak. The pneumatic never seem to need this.
    Last edited by txgp17; 05-15-2008 at 06:01 PM. Reason: to correct for info found in owner's manual

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    Quote Originally Posted by BoxAlarm187 View Post
    Generally speaking...
    • Set parking brake
    • Shift to neutral
    • Engine pump shift
    • Place transmission to drive (or 5th gear if manual transmission)
    • Listen for pump to engage, verify speedometer shows "speed"

    When done...
    • Throttle down
    • Place transmission in neutral
    • Allow speedometer to reach "zero" MPH
    • Disengage pump shift
    Actually, the first two should be reversed. Put in neutral, and then set the parking brake.

    Some electronic transmissions have an interlock, that see's the park brake activation. If you set the park brake, then move to neutral, the interlock will not allow you to move into pump gear.

    I've gone over this with a few FAE's. I understand that your adrenaline is peaked when you get to a fire. But, take the 5 extra seconds to do it smoothly. A one second pause between each action will almost always guarantee a smooth application to pump gear.

    As for the pump shift lever, 1 smooth motion to engage it. No need or reason to stop in the middle.

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    Quote Originally Posted by txgp17 View Post
    OMG, here we go injected facts from the Manufacturer into the discussion.

    Putting the switch in the middle position is neutral for the air shift cylinder, not neutral for the pump transmission. This means that the cylinder is neither pushing, nor pulling, thus it remains in the position it was last in unless acted on by another force.

    American LaFrance installed a couple of these air actuators on our engines for the Tank to Pump valve. Because it looked similar to the pump shifter, some guys thought the pump shift was located on the pump panel, despite it being label "Tank to Pump."

    Waterous has an instructional truck that makes it way around the country from time to time. I attended one of their classes back in 1998. The Waterous rep did make one great recommendation not found in the owner's manual. If you have trouble with the pump shifter not making a full shift from road to pump. Try shifting to Reverse for a second, then back to neutral for a 1-2 seconds, then to drive. This procedure worked great for electric pump shifters, which are notoriously weak. The pneumatic never seem to need this.
    Injecting facts from the manufacturer can't be that bad.

    The operations instructions for pump shifting actually do include the momentary reverse step if needed and has been in the instructions since at least 1978 when the automatic transmission was addressed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by chiefengineer11 View Post
    Some Waterous pumps, when they are new will experience a condition known as "butt tooth" where the gears aren't in perfect alignment when you go to make the shift. Due to the newness and tightness of the gears they are rotating in unison and the shift collar can't move into the "Pump" position. The result is that you don't get a complete shift, as shown by the light(s) not lighting. The trick is to momentarily touch reverse which breaks the torque against them, allowing the shift to complete itself.

    This condition usually clears itself pretty quickly. We had it on our '89 Quality (Waterous electric shift) and on our 2007 Toyne (Toyne's electrically operated Waterous air shift). The electric shift took a couple of months to clear out. The more powerful air shift cleared within a month or so. Of course the more you use it, the faster it clears. Toyne's switch does have a "neutral" position, and they suggest stopping there momentarily.

    As the gears wear in, just putting it in "Drive" usually clears the butt tooth condition. The second light tells you that the shift is complete. It's OK that the light doesn't come on until you put it in Drive. But a word of caution: Be sure that you have your foot on the brake when putting it in Drive!

    Stay safe out there, everyone goes home!
    Good real world advice... We have found that the Hale (3) airshift acts differently than our Waterous (1) airshift. Realizing that, the pause in the middle on the Hale's does not seem to effect our trucks. The Waterous does, and you get a clunk if you pause and do not go in one motion.

    I also noticed that one post suggested to put a manual in 5th gear. Not always the case, it usually wants to be the direct or 1 to 1 gear which may not be the 5th gear. 5th could be an overdrive and 4th is the direct.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ChiefDog View Post
    I also noticed that one post suggested to put a manual in 5th gear. Not always the case, it usually wants to be the direct or 1 to 1 gear which may not be the 5th gear. 5th could be an overdrive and 4th is the direct.
    Case in point - FWDbuff's FWD. Many trucks of that era and even much later used 4th direct/5th overdrive manual transmissions. A couple of years ago I saw and drove a 200? pumper that had an Autoshift 10 speed Roadranger - and 10th was overdrive. So they're still around.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GreggGeske View Post
    Injecting facts from the manufacturer can't be that bad.
    I was being facetious.
    Quote Originally Posted by GreggGeske View Post
    The operations instructions for pump shifting actually do include the momentary reverse step if needed and has been in the instructions since at least 1978 when the automatic transmission was addressed.
    You're right, I see it. I stand corrected.

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    Quote Originally Posted by chiefengineer11 View Post
    Some Waterous pumps, when they are new will experience a condition known as "butt tooth" where the gears aren't in perfect alignment when you go to make the shift. Due to the newness and tightness of the gears they are rotating in unison and the shift collar can't move into the "Pump" position. The result is that you don't get a complete shift, as shown by the light(s) not lighting. The trick is to momentarily touch reverse which breaks the torque against them, allowing the shift to complete itself.
    Interestingly enough, the mini-pumper I was referring to does have a Waterous pump (our only Waterous), so maybe there's something to that after all. Thanks for the info.

    Also, bonus points for using the phrase "butt tooth" in a sentence
    Chief Dwayne LeBlanc
    Paincourtville Volunteer Fire Department
    Paincourtville, LA

    "I have a dream. It's not a big dream, it's just a little dream. My dream and I hope you don't find this too crazy is that I would like the people of this community to feel that if, God forbid, there were a fire, calling the fire department would actually be a wise thing to do. You can't have people, if their houses are burning down, saying, 'Whatever you do, don't call the fire department!' That would be bad."
    C.D. Bales, "Roxanne"

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    Default Drive line torque depends on the type of transmission

    Some of the information about putting the road transmission into reverse prior to going into drive is not totally accurate. If you have an older apparatus this information is accurate however if your apparatus is equipped with an Allison World Series transmission you actually need to from neutral to drive then back to neutral and complete by going into drive. The World Series transmission produces a reverse torque on the drive train when in neutral. The older transmissions (such as the HT740) created a forward torque on the drive train.
    If you do not believe this, switch the pump shift selector into pump mode and look at the drive shaft rotation. It will take a minute or two but the drive shaft will start to rotate in a reverse direction. Some fire truck manufacturers have wired the system so the transmission clutches create a hydraulic brake and the drive shaft will not rotate at all but this is usually only done when coming out of pump mode.

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