1. #1
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    Default Did CEDAP Forget Firefighters

    Wow. Is it just me, or did CEDAP forget the fire service? Our department has been quite fortunate with awards from CEDAP, but it doesn't look like we will be applying this year. No communications equipment, and other than TNT rescue tools, there isn't much for anyone but law enforcement and maybe the Haz Mat crowd. What a letdown. I guess priorities have changed and more cop stuff was needed.
    Glenn Rainey
    Colington Fire Department
    Dare County, North Carolina
    The Outer Banks

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    CEDAP has always been mainly LE oriented. It is just with the shortened list it is more obvious this year
    Last edited by WJVaughn; 06-04-2008 at 04:05 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by WJVaughn View Post
    CEDAP has always been mainly LE oriented. It is just with the shrotened list it si more obvious this year
    The last question on this year's application asks for suggestions on equipment for the next CEDAP so don't miss the opprotunity to make a case.
    Kurt Bradley
    Fire/EMS/EMA Grant Consultant
    " Never Trade Skill for Luck"

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    Start with Amkus again rather than TNT.

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    Quote Originally Posted by neiowa View Post
    Start with Amkus again rather than TNT.
    I believe that the almighty "dollar" decided the bid winner! Not likely to chnage that process.
    Kurt Bradley
    Fire/EMS/EMA Grant Consultant
    " Never Trade Skill for Luck"

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    Thumbs up

    I believe that it was Mr. Bradley there that told me during the class I attended that CEDAP is 80% LEO and 20% Fire/EMS (Correct me if I'm wrong.) I know the list isnt great but surely there is something on there that you can use? The fire departments in our county will be putting in for a set of the tools or the thermal monocular, cause "what better way to find hot spots or see how much oil is left in a burning tank battery..." right Kurt? /poke
    Chautauqua County Emergency Manager
    Chautauqua County Deputy Sheriff
    United States Army Infantry Soldier

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    Quote Originally Posted by ChautauquaEM View Post
    I believe that it was Mr. Bradley there that told me during the class I attended that CEDAP is 80% LEO and 20% Fire/EMS (Correct me if I'm wrong.) I know the list isnt great but surely there is something on there that you can use? The fire departments in our county will be putting in for a set of the tools or the thermal monocular, cause "what better way to find hot spots or see how much oil is left in a burning tank battery..." right Kurt? /poke
    Give that man a cigar!
    Kurt Bradley
    Fire/EMS/EMA Grant Consultant
    " Never Trade Skill for Luck"

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    Just an observation here, relevant to what the fire service can ask for or what would be useful. The CEDAP Search & Rescue camera has a huge dual purpose for both fire and law enforcment. If you read closely you will see that it has different heads on the telescoping pole to use a high resolution ,low light camera, an audio listeninng device and, pay attention here fire service, a thermal imaging device. Now think how useful that could be in putting the thermal imager up the attic scuttlehole to check for hotsposts etc. or that your PD could stick that up there to see if the burglar/fugitive was hiding in the attic or the narcotics stash is hidden up there. Just food for thought folks!
    Kurt Bradley
    Fire/EMS/EMA Grant Consultant
    " Never Trade Skill for Luck"

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    Quote Originally Posted by ktb9780 View Post
    Just an observation here, relevant to what the fire service can ask for or what would be useful. The CEDAP Search & Rescue camera has a huge dual purpose for both fire and law enforcment. If you read closely you will see that it has different heads on the telescoping pole to use a high resolution ,low light camera, an audio listeninng device and, pay attention here fire service, a thermal imaging device. Now think how useful that could be in putting the thermal imager up the attic scuttlehole to check for hotsposts etc. or that your PD could stick that up there to see if the burglar/fugitive was hiding in the attic or the narcotics stash is hidden up there. Just food for thought folks!
    Keep in mind that fire service thermal imagers often have different software than police/search TIs. This software allows the fire TI to "see" large temperature differentials and still function when aimed at large heat sources, such fires. A police/search TI may not have the software needed to still function when aimed at an intense heat source, which can cause damage to the detector. Fire personnel are best served by getting TIs specifically designed and marketed to the fire service.
    My comments are sometimes educated, sometimes informed and sometimes just blowing smoke...but they are always mine and mine alone and do not reflect upon anyone else (especially my employer).

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    Quote Originally Posted by firemanjb View Post
    Keep in mind that fire service thermal imagers often have different software than police/search TIs. This software allows the fire TI to "see" large temperature differentials and still function when aimed at large heat sources, such fires. A police/search TI may not have the software needed to still function when aimed at an intense heat source, which can cause damage to the detector. Fire personnel are best served by getting TIs specifically designed and marketed to the fire service.
    I will not dispute that fact with you as, you are absolutely correct however; I am sure you would agree that either device is infinetly more effective than no device at all!

    In the case of CEDAP, it is aimed primarily at departments who have had no success, or no access, to the grants that can supply a T-Max or full fire service TIC and those departments whom obviously don't have the money to purchase from within their own budgets. Don't forget CEDAP is a full grant with no match required.

    Likewise I am sure you can understand that in a collapsed building search or many other SAR operations a T-Max would not fit nor would it have a practical application for law enforcement. By utilizing the "sharing" approach with law enforcement many of these agencies could still avail themsleves of a useful piece of equipment at no cost to themselves.The example cited was to indicate how to use the "sharing" aspect to achieve greater chance of success in this program since 80% of the money goes to law enforcement.

    I did not mean to suggest that it could be a replacment for a true fire service TIC but, nonetheless, better than nothing at all and still increasing your capabilities and ability to be mutually supportive of the local law enforcment also.
    Kurt Bradley
    Fire/EMS/EMA Grant Consultant
    " Never Trade Skill for Luck"

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    Quote Originally Posted by ktb9780 View Post
    I will not dispute that fact with you as, you are absolutely correct however; I am sure you would agree that either device is infinetly more effective than no device at all!

    In the case of CEDAP, it is aimed primarily at departments who have had no success, or no access, to the grants that can supply a T-Max or full fire service TIC and those departments whom obviously don't have the money to purchase from within their own budgets. Don't forget CEDAP is a full grant with no match required.

    Likewise I am sure you can understand that in a collapsed building search or many other SAR operations a T-Max would not fit nor would it have a practical application for law enforcement. By utilizing the "sharing" approach with law enforcement many of these agencies could still avail themsleves of a useful piece of equipment at no cost to themselves.The example cited was to indicate how to use the "sharing" aspect to achieve greater chance of success in this program since 80% of the money goes to law enforcement.

    I did not mean to suggest that it could be a replacment for a true fire service TIC but, nonetheless, better than nothing at all and still increasing your capabilities and ability to be mutually supportive of the local law enforcment also.
    While "something" is better than "nothing," firefighters will be very disappointed if they attempt to use non-fire imagers in fire situations. Sure, interoperability is the magic word now, but sometimes a square peg just can't be forced into a round hole.

    Can there be overlap between police and fire applications? Yes. And departments may be excited about accepting "free" stuff. Just because it's free doesn't mean it should be squandered. Remember it isn't free...it's your, his, her and my tax dollars. And if it can help someone else more effectively, then it should go there (since Congress forbids it be returned to us taxpayers). Departments need to assess what their likely applications are, and if collapse rescue and such are pretty unlikely, they should not expect to use these TIs successfully in their more likely MVAs and building fires.
    My comments are sometimes educated, sometimes informed and sometimes just blowing smoke...but they are always mine and mine alone and do not reflect upon anyone else (especially my employer).

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    Kind of a moot point anyway, the only options are the Search Camera with pole and microphone, and the monocular. First one is only for 'properly trained' search and rescue teams, 2nd is for surveillance and S&R. Neither has any kind of thermal protection to it for interior firefighting use. And unless the agency applying is a certified S&R entity then they won't qualify, or even score high if they do. Neither is a good option on hazmat either since they don't appear to be intrinsically sealed.

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    Both of you make excellent points that I had not considered in regards to those aspects. I stand corrected and appreciate what I tell everyone; if you didn't learn something new today, it was a wasted day.Thanks
    Kurt Bradley
    Fire/EMS/EMA Grant Consultant
    " Never Trade Skill for Luck"

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    Default CEDAP Deadline 5:00PM Monday 6/30/08

    Don't forget you r CEDAP deadline is on this Monday at 5:00PM!!
    Kurt Bradley
    Fire/EMS/EMA Grant Consultant
    " Never Trade Skill for Luck"

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    Thanks Kurt. I got ours in yesterday afternoon. We received a CEDAP last year for the Raman and 4-gas/PID. Let's see if we can make it two in a row.

    Jon

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    We received an '06 supplemental AFG that made us inelgible to apply this year So they didn't forget the fire service.

    "Just remember. No matter where you go. There you are!"

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